HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[RebelMan]

BTW, I was wondering how long it would take for you to mosey back on over to this thread. :lol:

My wife stepped out. I had a few more minutes of play time. LOL :rofl:

[aud19]

Amen brother!

Most people already pay for an internet connection of some sort so that's not really a stretch and the FACT is those speeds and the service are readily available to most urban populations NOW. Not 10 or 20 years from now. They will also continue to increase in quality, speed and availability as time goes on.

DVD was the fastest penetrating consumer media format EVER and until a few years ago VHS still out sold it. Doesn't give you much hope for Bluray to make any serious headway before downloads/VOD geta a large enough hold to start taking over does it? DVD had no, zero, zilch competition and was a HUGE improvement over VHS and still took almost 10 years to take over from it. Bluray had this ridiculous format war, competition from downloadable services, cable/sat/tel companies and a vastly changed consumer base that's used to getting media on demand. It's is also less noticeable of an improvement over DVD than DVD was over VHS....I'm not liking those chances for media domination short term or long term.

I'll remind you all that there is a thread created for this topic if you prefer to keep it out of this thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28348

(But with the war over, what the hell else are we going to argue about? :lol: )

[Race Car Driver]

My question is this.

Why does one format have to "outsell" ($$) the prior to be a success?

[Race Car Driver]

Xbox planning BR 360??

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Console/J7L7H2R4?page=1

[BasementJax]

The format war may be over, but I think most agree the Toshiba HD-DVD players were great products at a very reasonable price point. Not probable, *but* wouldn't be funny if Toshiba: 1) officially abandoned HD-DVD 2) in a few months released a Profile 2.0 BR player that outperformed everything on the market and retailed for HD-A35 prices?

[Race Car Driver]

The format war may be over, but I think most agree the Toshiba HD-DVD players were great products at a very reasonable price point. Not probable, *but* wouldn't be funny if Toshiba: 1) officially abandoned HD-DVD 2) in a few months released a Profile 2.0 BR player that outperformed everything on the market and retailed for HD-A35 prices?

I think that would be sweet. I have no issues with Toshiba, I just have issues with two competing formats that prevent the customer getting all options (in this case certain movies) if they only go with one format.

Thats where my issues (and I am sure everyone elses) are. I didnt care which one "won" I would have chosen either. However I enjoy having a PS3 (an AMAZING game station) that also does a great job playing HD media.

Sony played their cards right IMO. Every PS3 that rolled out the door was a potential BluRay disc buyer, even if it wasnt the customers intention at that time.

[RebelMan]

Most people already pay for an internet connection of some sort so that's not really a stretch and the FACT is those speeds and the service are readily available to most urban populations NOW. Not 10 or 20 years from now. They will also continue to increase in quality, speed and availability as time goes on.

DVD was the fastest penetrating consumer media format EVER and until a few years ago VHS still out sold it. Doesn't give you much hope for Bluray to make any serious headway before downloads/VOD geta a large enough hold to start taking over does it? DVD had no, zero, zilch competition and was a HUGE improvement over VHS and still took almost 10 years to take over from it. Bluray had this ridiculous format war, competition from downloadable services, cable/sat/tel companies and a vastly changed consumer base that's used to getting media on demand. It's is also less noticeable of an improvement over DVD than DVD was over VHS....I'm not liking those chances for media domination short term or long term.

Stepping in the ring are you? Time to put up your dukes Jason. :twisted:

1.) Dial-up is king and costs a fraction of broadband. 2.) High speed Internet is still a niche market but it is gaining in popularity. 4.) The infrastructure and the bandwidth is nowhere it needs to be. 5.) The proof of concept "pay-per-view" never really caught on. 5.) DVD's caught on because of the CD and the experience of what that media brought to the market place (I hope I don't have to tell you what that was). 6.) The competition was VHS and the vast libraries people held. Remember content is king not media. 7.) People like tangibles. Don't think so? Browse the isles next time you are in a B&M store.

Your wishful thinking is just that wishful. Eventually your wish may come true... eventually!. If you have faith in what you believe and say then I am certain that you don't own any HD media. Or do you have doubt? Hmm... :roll:

[Race Car Driver]

Stepping in the ring are you? Time to put up you dukes Jason. :twisted:

1.) Dial-up is king and costs a fraction. 2.) High speed Internet is still a niche market but it is gaining in popularity. 4.) The infrastructure and the bandwidth is nowhere it needs to be. 5.) The proof of concept "pay-per-view" never really caught on. 5.) DVD's caught on because of the CD and the experience of what that media brought to the market place (I hope I don't have to tell you what that was). 6.) The competition was VHS and the vast libraries people held. Remember content is king not media. 7.) People like tangibles. Don't think so? Browse the isles next time you are in a B&M store.

Your wishful thinking is just that wishful. Eventually your wish may come true... eventually!. If you have faith in what you believe and say then I am certain that you don't own any HD media. Or do you have doubt? Hmm... :roll:

Agreed on just about everything, however there are three that IMO is spot on..

[Charles]

Toshiba announced, HD DVD is officially dead. Seems they have planned a quick exit from the market. Hopefully Blu-Ray will soon fill the gaps.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_02/pr1903.htm

[helo]

Really? And you know this because?

Also, just because a market has growth potential doesn't necessarily mean it will be profitable. The DVD market could recede and still remain more profitable than HDM. Plus, studios are also cutting deals with other lines of distribution. It's just not that cut and dry.

Common sense for starters. DVD sales growth has stalled or is shrinking in some cases. HDM is growing at a faster rate currently because it's a smaller market with higher upside in growth and because all sales stats show month over month sales increases that exceed DVD sales. No one said DVD market wouldn't remain profitable. Considering that VHS is still very profitable, it's unlikely that DVD will disappear anytime soon but to think that HDM won't be profitable at some point is absurd.

[Alloroc]

"It's over, it's over, it's oveeeer, it'ssss OOOOOOOVERRRRRRRRRRRR!... cha...."

:#

Felt a bit of a song was in order!

[Lex]

Well, no need to fight over HD in the DVD format now, now we can fight over closeout deals for players and media in the isles of your favorite retailers or e-tailers.

My plan worked regardless of who won. I decided to commit to HD, not to one format, so very simply, I got a good player for each format, and a backup via the gaming systems. So, into the forseeable future, I can continue to enjoy the HD DVD discs I bought. So, like Laser Disc, HD-DVD won't be dead for a looooong time. I really prefer my HD-DVD player to my BD player from sony, and yes, I had the best BD player available. Oh well, they are both ok players, neither particularly fast loading, but I guess I got the time, just stick it in and do something else til it loads up.

This has been a fun keeping up with this heavyweight fight. I think everyone benefited from talking it out in some way.

Now, I am going to say this once. NO more TIT FOR TAT Quoting of every thing another person says in this or any other thread at HTG. The offensive inuindos, and name calling stops here. The next offense on this board will warrant the person a 30 day suspension from posting privledges. I hope this is CLEAR.[U]

[Ovation]

Well, no need to fight over HD in the DVD format now, now we can fight over closeout deals for players and media in the isles of your favorite retailers or e-tailers.

Here's hoping this becomes a reality (the closeout deals, not the fights :W ).

[littlesaint]

I wonder what the margins are for HD-DVD media? Amazon consistently sells them at 30% off which comes out to ~$20. They're low volume, so margins must still be high even at that price. I've been restricting purchases of either format to the just the better transfers, but if HD-DVD drops to or below DVD prices, I may be inclined to replace more of my DVDs. Unlike my LaserDisc player (which is reserved for Star Wars :B ), the XA2 will be staying in the rack as at least a DVD player, so why not add more HD-DVDs if their cheap.

[Nolan B]

Thats all she wrote

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Toshiba_Officially_Drops_HD_DVD/1477

And then there was one...

[impala454]

I wonder how cheap HD-DVDs will get... I'm keeping my XA2 for sure, if for no other reason that it upconverts well and keeps my panny BD player from wasting life spinning SD DVDs. I'm just curious if we'll see stuff like "ALL HD DVDS MUST GO!! NEW LOW PRICE OF $23/ea!"

[littlesaint]

I wonder how cheap HD-DVDs will get... I'm keeping my XA2 for sure, if for no other reason that it upconverts well and keeps my panny BD player from wasting life spinning SD DVDs. I'm just curious if we'll see stuff like "ALL HD DVDS MUST GO!! NEW LOW PRICE OF $23/ea!"

$23 :E You live in Canada or something? I wouldn't consider anything more than what DVDs are already selling at. $10-$15 sounds about right.

[littlesaint]

A German site is reporting that Paramount and Universal are onboard with Blu-ray, but offers no specifics or time table. Like anything else in this area, probably best to wait for an official announcement.

[George Bellefontaine]

A German site is reporting that Paramount and Universal are onboard with Blu-ray, but offers no specifics or time table. Like anything else in this area, probably best to wait for an official announcement.

I'm certain Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks, too, will be making announcements anytime now.

[hifiguymi]

Here's the info that Universal is going to do BD.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=12118

Now all that is left is for Paramount and Dreamworks to do the same.

Eric

[bw4sure]

here is what was going on behind the scenes at the HD camp

http://www.glumbert.com/media/hddvd

[littlesaint]

here is what was going on behind the scenes at the HD camp

http://www.glumbert.com/media/hddvd

You're about a month late with this. Still funny I guess, but comparing something devoid of social value like a format "war" to WWII is a bit childish and insulting to many.

[Alloroc]

here is what was going on behind the scenes at the HD camp

http://www.glumbert.com/media/hddvd

Well, I'd not seen this before and it was a funny piece of satire. Nice.

[littlesaint]

Well, I'd not seen this before and it was a funny piece of satire. Nice.

I guess it is pretty funny.

[Ovation]

That was too funny (I was in tears). It shouldn't be funny, but, well, it is.

[impala454]

$23 :E You live in Canada or something? I wouldn't consider anything more than what DVDs are already selling at. $10-$15 sounds about right.

I was being sarcastic, saying that's how they'll present sales to us.

[impala454]

I love these, I had not seen the BD/HDDVD one. I particularly liked this one about the Cowboys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYu68SHWh64

[littlesaint]

Warner sources say they will keep releasing HD-DVD titles until May 31st as planned. They may offer restocks after that date if there is demand, but in light of recent events, that is doubtful. It will be interesting to see what the cost of new releases will be during the lame duck period.

[Ovation]

Funny how the studio that effectively killed HD DVD is the only one that will be releasing anything in that format, for certain, all the way to 1 June.

[Hdale85]

Universal switching to Blu-Ray isn't going to be as hard as you guys make it out to be. They are similar formats although not identical. Also I believe the studios don't actually press the discs them selves they have other companies that do that.

[littlesaint]

I'm sorry. What did you say?

What part of what I stated wasn't true at the time?

Or are you just trolling?

[littlesaint]

Universal switching to Blu-Ray isn't going to be as hard as you guys make it out to be. They are similar formats although not identical. Also I believe the studios don't actually press the discs them selves they have other companies that do that.

The actual audio and video formats are identical (VC-1, TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc.). It's the authoring that is different. HD-DVD uses HDi, while Blu-ray uses BD-J. It will take time to re-author in the new software.

[littlesaint]

Funny how the studio that effectively killed HD DVD is the only one that will be releasing anything in that format, for certain, all the way to 1 June.

I imagine they're going to squeeze whatever money they can out of the format until there's no more to be made. One format winning is largely a PR move to get holdouts to jump onboard and provide a clear path forward. There's still a market for HD-DVD sales and there's still money to be made even if they don't support the format publicly. Amazon and Best Buy are now pushing Blu-ray as the winning format, but I also don't see them pulling the HD-DVD stuff off the shelves either save a disclaimer explaining the situation. There's still some demand while the ship sinks from those who have the hardware.

[Hdale85]

The actual audio and video formats are identical (VC-1, TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc.).

Actually Blu-Ray uses H.264 and AVC.

[hifiguymi]

For Universal to switch to BD it has to re-encode enery title that was released on HD-DVD. It will take them time and cost a fair amount of money.

Eric

[littlesaint]

Actually Blu-Ray uses H.264 and AVC.

AVC and H.264 are essentially the same thing as part of the MPEG4 standard. Blu-ray has supported VC-1 for quite some time and many studios have been using it for Blu-ray encodes.

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_video_codecs

[joetama]

For Universal to switch to BD it has to re-encode enery title that was released on HD-DVD. It will take them time and cost a fair amount of money.

Eric

Does anyone know how much it will actually cost?

It doesn't seem like it would be that big of a task. If they were redesigning the format then yea, but it seems like a simple conversion and changing of software would do.

Maybe I am wrong.... ops:

[Chris D]

And so the snowball continues... destined, I guess.

http://www.gspr.com/onkyo/hddvd_announcement.html

2/21/08 -- The following statement has been released by the Onkyo Corporation of Japan:

ONKYO WILL DISCONTINUE THE DEVELOPMENT AND PRODUCTION OF HD DVD PLAYERS

Onkyo Corporation has decided that Onkyo will discontinue the development and production of HD DVD players.

Onkyo has distributed and sold approximately 2000 units of the HD DVD players in the selected markets due to the growth of the large screen display market and high demand for home entertainment media. Onkyo has reached its decision to discontinue the development and production of HD DVD players after thorough review of Toshiba’s public announcement “Toshiba Announces Discontinuation of HD DVD Businesses” on February 19, 2008. As Onkyo manufactures HD DVD players with core parts supplied by Toshiba, it will be difficult for Onkyo to continue its further development and production of HD DVD players. Despite this decision, Onkyo will continue to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Onkyo HD DVD players.

Regarding Onkyo's prospective marketing of home theater products, Onkyo continues to provide innovative home theater products with high definition sound and images that are compatible with next generation disc formats such as Blu-ray.

While Onkyo has been an enthusiastic supporter of the HD DVD format, it was not an exclusive relationship. Onkyo's research and development teams have maintained a parallel development program for the competing Blu-ray technology.

[impala454]

For Universal to switch to BD it has to re-encode enery title that was released on HD-DVD. It will take them time and cost a fair amount of money.

Eric

I'm not sure this is 100% true. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any video/audio formats exclusive to either BD or HDDVD. Obviously they'll have to redo menus and actually author a BD format disc, but as far as the movies themselves, I'm pretty sure they can use whatever encode they used for HD-DVD.

[Chetk]

I'm not sure this is 100% true. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any video/audio formats exclusive to either BD or HDDVD. Obviously they'll have to redo menus and actually author a BD format disc, but as far as the movies themselves, I'm pretty sure they can use whatever encode they used for HD-DVD.

Which would be bad and a definite injustice to Blu-Ray. I will put in a disclaimer here that I have heard that many of their HD-DVD encodes are way below average when it comes to picture quality. I have not experienced it for myself. However, here's hoping they at least do a lossless audio codec.

[hifiguymi]

I'm not sure this is 100% true. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any video/audio formats exclusive to either BD or HDDVD. Obviously they'll have to redo menus and actually author a BD format disc, but as far as the movies themselves, I'm pretty sure they can use whatever encode they used for HD-DVD.

From what I understand it's not simple to change the interactive part of the discs. Since HDi and BD-Java are totally different it will be very much like redoing the whole disc. I hope, just like Chetk, that with the added space on BD's that the movies that had DD+ will now get Dolby TrueHD. If that were to happen it would be just like a re-encode as well. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

I read an article from a link on The Digital Bits I thought was interesting. Since I don't follow this end of the business I don't know how much of it is true but it's an interesting read.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/

Eric

[impala454]

Which would be bad and a definite injustice to Blu-Ray. I will put in a disclaimer here that I have heard that many of their HD-DVD encodes are way below average when it comes to picture quality. I have not experienced it for myself. However, here's hoping they at least do a lossless audio codec.

Almost all of Universal's HD-DVD titles are VC-1. I'm not sure how these would be an "injustice" to Blu-ray.

[Chetk]

Almost all of Universal's HD-DVD titles are VC-1. I'm not sure how these would be an "injustice" to Blu-ray.

Please see the difference between HD-DVD's maximum bit rate and Blu-Ray's maximum bit rate. VC-1 is good, but it's not THAT good. Perhaps Microsoft would have you believe that VC-1 at lower bit rates equals AVC or Mpeg-2 at higher bit rates, but high-bit rate AVC encoded Blu-Rays have consistantly proven to render a better picture quality than lower bit-rate HD-DVDs when full-length movies with additional extras are considered.

[impala454]

The read rates for Blu-ray & HD-DVD are exactly the same.