HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[littlesaint]

Bitrate has nothing to do quality if you're comparing two completely different codecs. You can't compare the picture quality of Universal releases because there are no Blu-ray equivalents to compare them to. All of these releases are VC-1 encodes for both formats and they are all exceptional:

Planet Earth
Blade Runner
Troy: Director's Cut
Harry Potter

[impala454]

King Kong was VC-1 and it is widely considered to be one of the best quality HDM discs available.

[Hdale85]

Yes the only codec I consider on par with VC-1 is AVC.

[Race Car Driver]

I read an article from a link on The Digital Bits I thought was interesting. Since I don't follow this end of the business I don't know how much of it is true but it's an interesting read.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/

Eric

I read the whole thing and have to agree.

[littlesaint]

I don't think the hurt put on MS is as much as that article would have you to believe. This was never really a Sony vs Microsoft battle. It's the chameleon nature of the PS3 that allows for the (flawed IMO) argument. If the PS3 is a Blu-ray player I don't see how it competes with the XBox 360 which was never really a serious HD-DVD platform (no HDMI on most models, no HD audio). If it's a game platform, it has a lot of catching up to do with exclusive licensees, though I read Sony gaming division is at least back in the black.

VC-1 is going to be used with Blu-ray. Paramount and Universal are not going to re-encode all of their films, and Warner has consistently used VC-1 as well. HDi is a loss for MS, but they weren't that heavily invested in it for HD-DVD. HD-DVD needed HDi, but no the other way around. Microsoft moves forward now with their broadband model, and the marketing of HDi for that platform. Also, if BD-J doesn't pan out well, expect MS to have some behind the scenes talks with the BDA to see if their interested.

[Ovation]

I read the article and while it raises some interesting observations, it has a decidedly anti-Microsoft bent--so much so that it makes the article a bit more suspect than it otherwise would be had the author provided a bit more dispassionate analysis.

[Hdale85]

All current Xbox 360's have HDMI. I was ready to return mine if it didn't as I had heard a few people comment that they ordered one online that was supposed to and ended up getting one that didn't. Luckily mine did.

[Race Car Driver]

I read the article and while it raises some interesting observations, it has a decidedly anti-Microsoft bent--so much so that it makes the article a bit more suspect than it otherwise would be had the author provided a bit more dispassionate analysis.

Those were my thoughts also, and to clarify when I commented that "I agree" I was referencing Erics comment on how he said it was an interesting read.

[Andrew M Ward]

am I missing something... or are 75% of the posters on this thread in complete denial...

:rofl:

Both Hi-Def disc formats are dead... 12 months from today and it's completely done (unless you're talking simply about games) but as movie formats they are cooked - toast - fried - over - lost - finished...


and many people predicted this over a year ago... (including me) Dead formats... I've been downloading movies for almost 8 months... ive got over 500 movies on my central hard drive... art work - actors - year - genre - movie company...all easy to be searched...

8O

what's a "format"...!!!!

[drsiebling]

:laughat:

[Race Car Driver]

am I missing something... or are 75% of the posters on this thread in complete denial...

:rofl:

Both Hi-Def disc formats are dead... 12 months from today and it's completely done (unless you're talking simply about games) but as movie formats they are cooked - toast - fried - over - lost - finished...


and many people predicted this over a year ago... (including me) Dead formats... I've been downloading movies for almost 8 months... ive got over 500 movies on my central hard drive... art work - actors - year - genre - movie company...all easy to be searched...

8O

what's a "format"...!!!!

I guess next feb we will see if you are right.
EDIT: I would just like to say that statement of your just insulted about "75% of the posters in this thread"

[Ovation]

am I missing something... or are 75% of the posters on this thread in complete denial...

:rofl:

Both Hi-Def disc formats are dead... 12 months from today and it's completely done (unless you're talking simply about games) but as movie formats they are cooked - toast - fried - over - lost - finished...


and many people predicted this over a year ago... (including me) Dead formats... I've been downloading movies for almost 8 months... ive got over 500 movies on my central hard drive... art work - actors - year - genre - movie company...all easy to be searched...

8O

what's a "format"...!!!!

How many of those are 1080p with lossless audio? As I noted in the other thread on HDM, you're dreaming if you think HIGH DEFINITION (not HD-LITE) is going to be available to the masses via internet in 12 months--which is what would need to happen for Blu-ray to "die".

[H.T.C]

Netflix has announced that they may start downloading movies to consoles such as xbox 360 but bandwith seems to be a problem as warner (road runner) wants to stop monthly fees and charge each time one goes on.

This would make the download of films too expensive to fully work if its true.

[littlesaint]

am I missing something... or are 75% of the posters on this thread in complete denial...

:rofl:

Both Hi-Def disc formats are dead... 12 months from today and it's completely done (unless you're talking simply about games) but as movie formats they are cooked - toast - fried - over - lost - finished...


and many people predicted this over a year ago... (including me) Dead formats... I've been downloading movies for almost 8 months... ive got over 500 movies on my central hard drive... art work - actors - year - genre - movie company...all easy to be searched...

8O

what's a "format"...!!!!

I'm a fan of downloads as the future. I've seen the tech in the lab that facilitates HDM quality streaming and downloads in minutes rather than hours. However, your claim of many being in denial includes yourself if you think this is happening in a year. Blu-ray faces the up hill battle of DVD dominance, consumers who don't see a significant upgrade, and HDTV market penetration. HD downloads face all of those plus the fact that the technology and more importantly, infrastructure is not there yet, and it's a paradigm shift for consumers. The argument here is not about just downloading movies. It's downloading movies with the same quality and features of HDM. Big difference and it's not going to compete with DVD inside of a year.

[Race Car Driver]

There is the talk about DVD dominance, and I wont argue that, however some people are still thinking (not stating people above me, just an general observation) that DVD sales are growing. Even in this thread to quote "My point is: Regular old DVD sales are still sky-rocketing with growth projected for a long time..."

This is false, it was even predicted back in 2006 that DVD sales will now fall, and they have. They rose a very minor 1-2% after 2004 (peaked) and have began to fall after 2006.

Now I am not stating DVD is not the top dog, because it is, and by a large margin, however its had a decade of growth. But the fact is DVD sales are declining, and have been for over a year... period.

Now whats the next advancement in video, Blu-Ray... Why.. because it's here. HD-DVD is done, Blu-Ray is growing, and will continue to do so. It keeps getting more backers. I am not saying Blu-Ray is the end all be all, or the final advancement, I think anyone should realise that. However if downloadable Hi Def was truely going to wash BR as if it never happend, you would not see all these companies dumping millions of dollars into it. That would just be silly if its going to be gone in 12 months. Blu-Ray will stick around for quite some time... will it ever eclipse 24 billion a year? I dont have the answer to that, but I also know that it doesnt have to do so to be considered a success.

Just me thinking out loud, agree or disagree, I dont care.

[Chris D]

am I missing something... or are 75% of the posters on this thread in complete denial...

:rofl:

Both Hi-Def disc formats are dead... 12 months from today and it's completely done (unless you're talking simply about games) but as movie formats they are cooked - toast - fried - over - lost - finished...


and many people predicted this over a year ago... (including me) Dead formats... I've been downloading movies for almost 8 months... ive got over 500 movies on my central hard drive... art work - actors - year - genre - movie company...all easy to be searched...

8O

what's a "format"...!!!!

Huh... well, like I said in that other thread, very well... Feb 22nd, 2009, we'll come back to this thread and see where the industry is at.

So your downloaded movies are in 1080p, PQ matching that of BD, with lossless audio, right? Where did you get them from?

[Andrew M Ward]

I guess next feb we will see if you are right.
EDIT: I would just like to say that statement of your just insulted about "75% of the posters in this thread"

"In denial" shouldn't be too insulting... (should it..?) :roll:

[Andrew M Ward]

Huh... well, like I said in that other thread, very well... Feb 22nd, 2009, we'll come back to this thread and see where the industry is at.

So your downloaded movies are in 1080p, PQ matching that of BD, with lossless audio, right? Where did you get them from?

- Some are in 1080i (most are standard 480)
- None have lossless audio (but neither is Blu-Ray) but that's another conversation

Blu-Ray is a fabulous product (no complaints from me) but it's dead as a consumer product
HD-DVD is a fabulous product but it too is dead as a consumer product

two great products: Both completely inconsequential to the future of consumer movie based home entertainment...
and every month that goes by they become less and less of a factor

see VuDu.. (for example one)

[Ovation]

Blu-ray certainly has a number of lossless audio titles (as does HD DVD). No 1080p? Sorry, no sale.

And, you know, you still can't get around the fact that fewer than half of North American households actually subscribe to internet services (that includes dial-up). About 90% can, if they wish, but still many have not done so.

Downloads will be complimentary--not a replacement--for physical media for at least another decade. Anyone who thinks otherwise is floating on a river among the pyramids.

[Andrew M Ward]

Blu-ray certainly has a number of lossless audio titles (as does HD DVD). No 1080p? Sorry, no sale.

And, you know, you still can't get around the fact that fewer than half of North American households actually subscribe to internet services (that includes dial-up). About 90% can, if they wish, but still many have not done so.

Downloads will be complimentary--not a replacement--for physical media for at least another decade. Anyone who thinks otherwise is floating on a river among the pyramids.

wow.. hello..? are you trying to foil your own argument..?

The Pew Internet & American Life Project has released their Broadband Adoption 2007 report. The report finds that nearly half (47%) of all adult Americans now have a high-speed internet connection at home, according to a February 2007 survey conducted by the Pew Internet & American Life Project.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/our_work_ektid25474.aspx?category=52&WT.srch=1&source=google

that would be about 150 million hi-speed subscribers..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blu-Ray has sold a total of 4 million discs.. not players, movie discs.. :rofl:
to date paid downloaded movies have exceeded 10 million units.. so to date (as of today) downloaded movies and TV shows is presently already larger than HD-DVD and Blu-Ray combined...

find something else to smoke (or share) as you float along the river among the pyramids (as you put it)


It's dead I tell you... you can thank me later

[Briz vegas]

This will be interesting to watch now that the format war is over. I bet you many many folks with HD screens were waiting for that and for prices to become more realistic. I think we are now knocking on that door.

Downloads are OK but unless they are full HD and have the same terms as a rental video they are not that appealing for when I get round to buying a full HD projector - If I want to watch a movie twice in 24 hours I should be able to do so (this may show my ignorance of the download terms). Not having to go to the video shop, not missing out on obscure titles Video Easy are to stingy to stock or because the film is popular (all copies rented) are bonuses.

At the same time there are the odd titles that I want to own - music DVDs and those special flicks that I want to see again and again or just have on my shelf or to lend to friends (so they can say I have weird taste and fall asleep before the end - why is it only me that appreciates Jim Jamusch films)

There is a place for full HD downloads and there is a place for discs that you can buy. Why deny us choice - is not life in the new century all about having too many choices.

[Ovation]

wow.. hello..? are you trying to foil your own argument..?

The Pew Internet & American Life Project has released their Broadband Adoption 2007 report. The report finds that nearly half (47%) of all adult Americans now have a high-speed internet connection at home, according to a February 2007 survey conducted by the Pew Internet & American Life Project.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/our_work_ektid25474.aspx?category=52&WT.srch=1&source=google

that would be about 150 million hi-speed subscribers..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blu-Ray has sold a total of 4 million discs.. not players, movie discs.. :rofl:
to date paid downloaded movies have exceeded 10 million units.. so to date (as of today) downloaded movies and TV shows is presently already larger than HD-DVD and Blu-Ray combined...

find something else to smoke (or share) as you float along the river among the pyramids (as you put it)


It's dead I tell you... you can thank me later

You'll note I said NORTH America (which, as any geography book can tell you, includes Canada and Mexico). There is a world outside the US, you know, and, believe it or not, it does contribute to the world economy. Moreover, what your link also shows (and you don't bother to take into account) is that the rate of high speed adoption is already SLOWING. Also, it does not appear to differentiate among the various levels of "high speed" internet available (my ISP offers three different rates--by far the most popular one (owing to cost, of course) is the "slowest" of the three--faster than DSL, but still too slow for HD movie downloads in anything under a few hours. And while DSL may count as "high speed" for surfing the web, it isn't ideal for heavy downloading--just how many of those "broadband" subscribers are DSL?).

No one is disputing (I'm not, anyway) that downloads will be important, and increasingly so. What I'm disputing is your ridiculously "optimistic" notion that "Blu" will be dead in a year and supplanted by downloads. That is, frankly, absurd. Both SD DVD and Blu-ray will be around for years, not months and the thing that supplants one or both with be another physical medium (flash memory cards, most likely). That medium (whatever it turns out to be) will likely be supplanted by downloads (by then, the infrastructure will TRULY make that possible). That's minimally 10 YEARS, not 10 MONTHS, away.

Until then, we'll be enjoying our 1080p with (mostly) lossless audio while you enjoy your SD and HD-LITE downloads with lossy sound. Have fun.

[George Bellefontaine]

I'm sitting back, reading all these posts and having a good chuckle. Sure, downloads are the future, but not as quickly as our friend Andrew is predicting, and probably not in my lifetime, which is shorter than most of yours here... :lol:

[Andrew M Ward]

I'm sitting back, reading all these posts and having a good chuckle. Sure, downloads are the future, but not as quickly as our friend Andrew is predicting, and probably not in my lifetime, which is shorter than most of yours here... :lol:

it's a fun topic and keeps everybody on their toes :W
I'll check back in 12 months (to rub it in further)


(You'll still be with us in 12 months right George..!!!)

[Hdale85]

There is no possible way that downloads will take over the physical media market in 12 months sorry. There are more people with cell phones then high speed internet access let alone access fast enough to download HD media in a reasonable time frame. I know lots of people that won't go downloads unless its equal in quality to HD disc formats. If I have to watch 720p on my 1080p TV forever then thats just crazy. Not to mention that the market has been moving to 1080p for a while so I really don't see downloads getting big until 1080p video downloads are capable in a reasonable time frame.

[George Bellefontaine]

(You'll still be with us in 12 months right George..!!!)

I'm certianly going to do my best...

[impala454]

I can't recall if it was here or another forum, but here's my $0.02:

As long as we can still get in the car, drive to the store, purchase a disc, swing by and grab some food, head home, and completely watch the movie all in less time than it takes to download, we'll still have physical media around.

I have a 13Mbps connection at home (real speed I get is about 1.3MBps (note the capital B), and at that rate, it'd take 6.5 hrs to download a 30GB movie. I know my connection is way faster than most people's (and I pay an extra $20/mo to get the faster service).

[Ovation]

I can't recall if it was here or another forum, but here's my $0.02:

As long as we can still get in the car, drive to the store, purchase a disc, swing by and grab some food, head home, and completely watch the movie all in less time than it takes to download, we'll still have physical media around.

I have a 13Mbps connection at home (real speed I get is about 1.3MBps (note the capital B), and at that rate, it'd take 6.5 hrs to download a 30GB movie. I know my connection is way faster than most people's (and I pay an extra $20/mo to get the faster service).

Exactly. As far as 12 months being the "death knell" of Blu-ray, I believe this is 'GAME, SET and MATCH' for the "blu" team.

[impala454]

Not to mention our (arguably) possessive nature wanting something physical in our hands when we spend money.

[Hdale85]

Well you can have an H.264 or VC-1 1080p movie encoded with DTS-HD or DD+ in a 10-15 gig file. I download at 1.7MBps would take me about 2-3 hours to download. Of course thats no extra's or anything. Problem is is noone is offering this high of a quality film for online download. I won't accept anything less then Blu-Ray as far as quality goes from online movies.

[impala454]

Right but for this kind of thing to be widely adopted, everyone has to have a connection that fast. Which means not only does the end user have to buy a new box, they have to upgrade/get internet service, as well as get consistent service. ISPs sure aren't gonna hand out free bandwidth upgrades because appleTV wants to make some money. I know lots of people who live in areas where they currently cannot get something faster than a low grade DSL connection. Also what happens when little susie wants to download new songs for her ipod and little johnnie wants to play world of warcraft while you're watching your movie? Lots of problems to consider with downloads IMHO. It took quite a while before music downloads were reasonable enough to become an industry, I suspect it will be the same with HD movies.

[Ovation]

And music downloads (low-res for 99%--not standard res like CD, but 128kbps mp3) are far, far less demanding on the infrastructure than hi-def movies. I actually fear downloads for movies for that reason--they will be low-res (at best SD DVD) for the most part as people will value "convenience over quality" yet again (as they do with music--I've never paid for a low-res audio download of music nor will I ever do so). I do NOT want hi-def movies to be a tiny niche--there are too many films I want to see in hi-def.

[H.T.C]

And music downloads (low-res for 99%--not standard res like CD, but 128kbps mp3) are far, far less demanding on the infrastructure than hi-def movies. I actually fear downloads for movies for that reason--they will be low-res (at best SD DVD) for the most part as people will value "convenience over quality" yet again (as they do with music--I've never paid for a low-res audio download of music nor will I ever do so). I do NOT want hi-def movies to be a tiny niche--there are too many films I want to see in hi-def.

Correct...there it is, the one thing that could stop the downloading of high quality hd films, the many consumers who dont or could care less about high definition and proved that with low quality mp3s because they can hold more on their players and higher audio takes up space.

They dont what to understand if music sounds better 3dimensional or awful flat,just the convenience of it and same with video ...aka vhs...betamax.

[Race Car Driver]

http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/61837.html

[Chris D]

Looks like now that the war is over, Netflix is increasing its Blu-Ray offerings.

http://www.psu.com/Netflix-offers-more-blu--a0002934-p0.php

[Lex]

so I wonder if all the films that were on HDDVD that weren't on BD, will now be on BD? I mean that was one good reason for HDDVD, the many films you couldn't get otherwise. I realize the studios were the reason, but nothing saying they will go back.

[H.T.C]

Just sit tight for a while,a new one is bound to start again sometime. :lol:

[Lex]

lol Robert. I already have one ringer, HDDVD. I am not sweating it though, I'll continue to watch the movies. I knew when I bought into both, that it could happen. But I decided to make my HD experience about the movies, not about the formats. So, I supported both. I lost, yeah, but no regrets.

[Ovation]

You haven't lost if the discs and players still work. You would only lose if, after spending the money, everything became inoperable (a bit like subscribing to a cable/sat provider that goes out of business after you've purchased a PVR or dish that only works with their service--THAT would be a loss, IMO). I have decided to stop buying HD DVDs as I've picked up what I want that is currently available that is/was exclusive to HD DVD, as I plan to go "blu" later this year. Of course if the occasional bargain comes along, I'll pick it up, but I'm content with the nearly 50 discs I have and look forward to collecting in "blu" when the time comes--it is about movies, not formats (as it was/is for hi-res audio--still buy that when something interests me, but it's a lot slower than it used to be). If the non-"blu" studios were not moving to "blu", then I might be more aggressive in buying up remaining HD DVDs. But that seems unlikely.

[David Meek]

Lex, you and Ovation get the basic premise right. IT'S ABOUT THE MOVIE.

I too broke down and bought a Toshiba HD-DVD player due to the insanely good deals offered before Christmas, and I'm up to about 20 HD-DVD discs. Even with the demise of HD, I still get to watch those 20 movies in the best HD quality available. I'm already starting to purchase Blu-Ray discs and as soon as I pull the trigger on a Blu-Ray player (waiting on Profile 2.0 units) I'll have access to the entire catalog in full HD glory as the titles are released. Basically, I don't care about the format of the disc - it's about the movie.

Yes, downloads are the future (some day) - there's no doubt about that. But, with the current infrastructure available, the limiting download technology, the paucity HD of titles, the lack of (any) HD audio, etc. the draw for the collectors/appreciators like us, and more importantly, the average consumer isn't there. And in realistic terms it won't be in 12 months either. The earliest adopters will be there sure, but it's going to be fringe for several years yet. Andrew just likes to stir the pot to get attention, so let him go.

Let me put it another way. Why wait 3-8 hours on a download for a single title that might not be perfect (error checking anyone?) when someone can drive to the store, buy 1, 2, 3 or more discs and be home watching them in an hour or so? Game, set and match for the foreseable future.

[George Bellefontaine]

Yeah, I didn't really matter to me who won the HDM format war. Everything I've read about both formats pretty much say the PQ was the same. I nearly bought a Tosh HD DVD player just before Christmas but decided to wait until after Christmas to see if there were any sales. There were, but not on the Tosh, so I ended up buying a Panny BD30 Blu-ray player. I was going to add a Tosh later, but then the Warner thing happened.

[impala454]

The "war" has been over for a month, and I have yet to see any of my favorites even announced on blu-ray yet. Stuff like: Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR, Braveheart, the Jack Ryan movies, Saving Private Ryan, etc etc. I wonder what the hold up is.

[Hdale85]

Amazon has a page up for LOTR trilogy box set on Blu-Ray but no date on it.

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Trilogy-Blu-ray/dp/B000X9FLKM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1205421789&sr=1-1

Starwars

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Trilogy-Episodes-Blu-ray/dp/B000PMG16U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=blu-ray&qid=1205421824&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Trilogy-Episodes-IV/dp/B000PMLFRA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=blu-ray&qid=1205421824&sr=1-2

Braveheart

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Trilogy-Episodes-IV/dp/B000PMLFRA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=blu-ray&qid=1205421824&sr=1-2

Seems they have been announced just no date.

[impala454]

Well those pages have been there a long time (look at the dates of the reviews). They don't really mean anything. There had been a LOTR HD-DVD placeholder page since summer last year.

[Hdale85]

Yeah... Personally I'm hoping for the LOTR and Starwars box sets on Blu my self.