HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

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  • Lex
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Apr 2001
    • 27461

    HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

    ok, we had a couple of threads on HD in the Chalet already about HD, but I felt like things were a little spread out, so let's assiminate the information into one official back and forth, to and from thread, gloves must remain ON at all times!

    so, are you in or are you out? If you are In, how "IN" are you? If you are out, what would bring you "in"?

    Are you doing it one way only, or doing it both ways?

    If only one way, do you plan to enter the second or play it one way until your way folded perhaps?

    Benefits of HD, worth all the fuss?

    Where's the market going for 07, what will be the impact of PS3 on BD? Of the 360 and it's add on player for HD DVD?

    Anyway, I think the interest is now there to carry on a good thread about this, so I'm sticking this bad boy where the sun don't shine, here in HT.

    I don't see this thread so much about the quality of movies, it's more a hardware/market issue, so I think it belongs here.

    Does anyone think we will see a true high end dual format machine for 07? How about any dual format machine?

    I'll start by adding what I think to the mix.

    First, increasing resolution is usually a very good thing, that much is easy enough. Although with talk of 1420P surfacing, I have to ask, is that really practical or necessary?

    Let's assume 1080p is good enough for the moment. It is certainly unfortunate that the powers to be over our theaters, couldn't come to agreement in a boardroom somewhere, instead they have to take their fight to our living rooms. Very unfortunate. Let's face it, a lot of us don't have money to blow and just can't afford to go down a wrong path, then change decisions and do it all over again. We have gotten forced into these decisions already with video standards, high resolution audio, when I ask will the manufacturers get it right for Goodness sake? Well, let's face it, whether greed, or power hungry, the desire to position themselves at the top of the chain is there for most all large vendors. Sony, Toshiba and their collective cyborgs this time.

    There may be good reasons for both, but let's face it, there were good reasons for Betamax too, over VHS, but lower quality VHS won that war and Betamax was cast aside. This time, the situation is a little different, I mean we have a precident first off, of competing formats staying in the marketplace with DVD Audio and SACD, both fighting for market share. Well, we've seen how well that worked out. Sigh. But this time, the stakes are higher than with CDs, we have a much more open market with DVD sales, and people moving toward affordable HD quality TVs for HD cable or satellite, so now they are already halfway in position for HD DVD, a logical next move. But at the same time, let's face it, most households won't own one for a long time yet. So, again, we are forced to be innovators, pioneering HD in our theaters, if we are to choose HD DVD or Blue Ray now. We'll only be able to get a certain number of our favorite movies on either format currently, and some will only be available on one or the other, but not both. So, we have ourselves a real tough spot to be in, since at this point, we cannot get 1 player to support both formats. (As yet)

    So, it will be interesting to see how things develop from here. said I was going to sit this one out and I had through 06. Then there I was, taking something back to BB with some time on my hands, I decided to check out the HD section, and there they were on a single isle, butted squarely up against each other, neither willing to give ground to the other's quest to dominate the shelf. Of course, I thought I might get a couple of blue ray discs for my PS3, so I shopped, and I comparison shopped.

    So, then I said, well let's have a look at their players just to see what they have and there, sitting on the end of the isle was a beautiful Sony player with stainless steel top, bluish looking partial glass panel on face, of course it was HD DVD format. Ha, kidding, it was BD (Blue ray Disc)

    Long story short, I took it home with me with 3 free movies and on an 18 months same as cash deal. I hope I don't regret it.

    I plan later to get the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on player, so I'll have HD DVD covered as well. I will lean to blue ray when there is a choice, but if no choice, then I'll get the one that is available. I think running two projectors, this is the logical step for me, and a good step toward increasing the quality of my movie experience greatly. I will not rebuy everything, I will keep my main upscalling DVD player for the bulk of my old library and will only rebuy favorites, or movies that I feel will benefit the most from a true HD experience.

    5th Element, Terminator 2, the Italian Job, and the MI trilogy are what I have added to date. I also have the Talledega Nights that came with the PS3.

    I admit I did not plan to do this now, not at all, and I could kick myself for falling victim. But I doubt I will return it either...

    I believe Sony will become more powerful in 07 with included BD player in PS3. Yes, the PS3 is more expensive, but people are more likely to pay the price for the game system they want. Being likely to fork up an added 200 for a player for HD is not "as likely".

    I'll admit, it's a substantial gamble buying the high end player now. But I am betting that sony will not cave this time, not with it tied to their important game system already and with the backing of Apple computer as well as a host of studios including Disney which I believe now owns a portion of BD? They would not cave to give Xbox 360 an edge with the HD DVD add on

    So, what's your take? Please be civil in your responses here. We can disagree and still be friends. Thanks for that.

    Doug
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer
  • basementjack
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 191

    #2
    Doug, I agree with you - I think BD will dominate in the long term. (And currently I own the 360 HD-DVD add on and NO BD player)

    We have to face the facts - even if the PS3 flops as a game console, a failure there would still be 1-3 million units sold in the HD video war, 1-3 million potential players is way more than whats been sold in the HD-DVD space.

    I really think the HD-DVD format is better, (the interactive commentary system is really cool, and many of the HD-DVD titles that are also on Blue-Ray seem to have better sound options on the HD-DVD versions)

    Better doesn't mean something takes off however, as was shown by VHS vs beta, Laserdisk vs VHS, DVD-A+SACD vs CD - heck the original Xbox was way better than the PS2 (480p component out, dolby digital support) and it didn't win either.

    Nope, History has chosen the worst of each format each and every time.

    The one good thing is that even if HD-DVD looses, I think the initial competition made BD a better product that it might have been - and the other good thing is that the capacity is there to make it better - mpeg-2 might not be the best, but we're not locked into it with BD -same with the audio - While Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD isn't as common on BD as it is on HD-DVD At least those are options that might someday be used. (Can you see the future 'superbit' versions supporting the better video codecs and sound encoding - and commanding a premium $)

    Comment

    • aud19
      Twin Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2003
      • 16706

      #3
      I think neither format will accomplish much beyond a blip on the radar. Frankly I think they were a VERY poorly executed stepping stone to downloadable VOD via FIOS or something similar. Even as a storage medium they can't compete with ever bigger, cheaper hard drives and flash etc drives. I think J6P (the people they need for the formats to succeed) are largely satisfied with SD DVD's, hell a good portion of them still don't own HD capable displays.

      Needless to say...I have no plans to jump in :lol:
      Jason

      Comment

      • Kevin P
        Member
        • Aug 2000
        • 10809

        #4
        Well, for something major like this, I tend not to jump right away. DVD came out in '97, and I didn't own a player until '99. Throughout the years, we have had competing formats, usually one backed by Sony, and one backed by "everyone else". Betamax vs. VHS. Minidisc vs. DAT/DCC. SACD vs. DVD-A. Blue-Ray vs. HD-DVD. And one mustn't forget that abomination that attempted to compete with DVD years back, Circuit City's DIVX.

        In most cases, the proprietary (Sony) format has lost out to the more open, backed by everyone-else-but-Sony format. In the only exceptions (MiniDisc and SACD), both formats flopped. In just about every case, Sony's format was technically superior - Beta, MD, SACD, and Blu-Ray, but when it comes to marketing and competing, Sony is like a fish out of water. This is why I'm betting on HD-DVD for the future, though I will probably wait a year or more before jumping on either format. A lot of it will do with how many titles are released in either format, and what "must-have" titles will be released. For example, if Star Wars is released on one of the two formats, that will be a big boost for that format.

        If, after a year or two, if there still doesn't seem to be a clear cut winner, then I will hold out for a good dual-format player.

        And then there is the entire copy protection/ICT/HDCP/DRM quagmire. The prior successful formats had either no, or primarily non-intrusive protection schemes. The HD format's schemes, if the studios start flipping the proper bits on the discs, will be anything but non-intrusive to those of us using component video connections to our displays. It was copy protection that killed DAT and DCC, and to a lesser extent MiniDisc, and it will kill HD discs as well if the studios and manufacturers aren't careful. This is another reason I'm going to wait a while. If, in a year or so, most/all discs don't have the downres flag set, I will consider it a non-issue and will jump on the dominating format. If most/all discs do downres, guess what... I'm not buying. But that's a discussion for another thread.

        Another reason I'm sitting on the fence, is because of all the times in the past I've gotten burned in choosing a format. I bought into Laserdisc, MiniDisc, and SACD at some point in my life. I'm not making those mistakes yet again...

        Originally posted by Lex
        I think running two projectors, this is the logical step for me, and a good step toward increasing the quality of my movie experience greatly...
        Well, there's one solution to HDMI switching... two players, two projectors! Why not two pre-pros, two sets of speakers, two subs, two rooms, two houses... :rofl:

        Comment

        • Ovation
          Super Senior Member
          • Sep 2004
          • 2202

          #5
          Financial constraint is the only reason I've not already jumped on board. I'd love to have an Anthem D2, the new Pioneer 1080p plasma, the Panasonic BD player, Toshiba second gen high end HD-DVD player with Arcam FMJ amplification (I like my current speakers, so I'll stick with them). Sadly, I have none of those things, nor are they in my immediate future.

          I have an SACD player and a DVD-A player, so I'm not opposed to having two hi-def video players. I'd rather there be only one format, but, eh. I just hope that either one (or both) will be more than niche formats so the selections will be interesting across all genres of film.

          Comment

          • Lex
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Apr 2001
            • 27461

            #6
            Jason, sorry, but I am going to wholeheartedly disagree with downloadable movies. Or maybe video on demand. I think this is just yet one more attempt at copyright control, and I for one am not interested in paying for a movie each time I use it, we said no to that once before with Circuit City's DVD thing.

            Frankly, I don't even want them downloadable. First off, I don't want to tie up my bandwidth just to get a movie I want to watch. I don't want to be actively involved in creating movie discs, and I dang sure do not want to use my computer as a player for my home theater. cough, I had my HTPC experience thanks, I prefer standalone products, and I prefer factory disc packs with descriptions, extras, the whole shooting match. :-)

            One of these formats is more than a blip on the radar screen if not both, I believe we will have DVD in HD format for a LONG time.
            Doug
            "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

            Comment

            • aud19
              Twin Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2003
              • 16706

              #7
              Doug check out FIOS...it covers a lot of your concerns As for VOD it's already happening with podcasts etc as well as the afformentioned FIOS and even your cable providers. It's the next wave and it's coming and quite frankly it's going to demolish BD/HD-DVD like a Tsunami IMO.

              And FWIW you won't pay for every view. It will be just like downloadable music is now. You pay a small amount to be able to watch it over say a 4 day period or a lrger amount to keep it as long as you want. There's even provisions with FIOS and related gear to transfer/share those files over your home network to different rooms, displays etc.
              Jason

              Comment

              • Charles
                Senior Member
                • Jul 2006
                • 119

                #8
                I'm with Doug on buying and keeping the movie on disc and pulling it out today or 5 years from now. I'm in the camp of buying to own forever and not some rental fee attached whenever I decide to watch. As for HD, it's here to stay to those of who have had the opportunity to see it on good equipment in our own room.

                I had a Toshiba HD-A1 until today when I returned it before the 30 day trial just to make sure I wanted to get in to HD. I'm sold and ready to buy the top of the line player when the battle is decided. The only reason why I didn't keep it and pick up a BR player also is due to space constraints. I'm pretty convinced by late spring we should know which way to go. If Sony win's I hope they do the right thing for the consumer with pricing and compatibility.

                Comment

                • P-Dub
                  Office Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 6766

                  #9
                  I have yet to jump into either of the HD camps. I like the technology of the BD but the price point of the HD.

                  In the end I think the winner will be the one with the most software and the hardware priced right. And by my simple observation that is HD. It seems like more movies are out for it and the basic player can be had for $500.

                  The early technology adopters will choose base on their own criteria and price may not be a major factor. But for good penetration, you need the near adoptors. Those that have the funds and can feel confident that their investment won't go down the drain.

                  I'm like a near adoptor(I'm coining this phrase now, any company, research think tank, marketing, etc can pay me and HTG a royalty fee for each use). I knew about DVD back in '95, the launch in Seattle in '97 but I didn't buy it until 99. That's when I actually had some money and that there were enough titles. In fact my first player was over $600.

                  Now DVD is a commodity, buy a toaster and get a free dvd player. Bargain priced DVD's are at your local corner store.

                  Finally how will the average consumer benefit from HD/BD? I think a minimum of a 50" set would be needed to see the difference. These larger sets are more available today and at cheaper prices. But what about the existing installed base of 27" TV's your average consumer? Will they see the difference? I doubt it.

                  Just mention the fact that there are two HD formats, and any consumer knows enough to wait for a dominant player to emerege.

                  So I come to my initial opinion that the format with the most software and the cheapest hardware will win. At the moment that seems to be HD.

                  If I am to put down my hard earned money, I want to know that the movies I want are available in HD and that I'm not going to be out of pocket when I buy a new player.
                  Paul

                  There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

                  Comment

                  • aud19
                    Twin Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 16706

                    #10
                    Like it or not guys, that's the future. As downloadable music did for CD's VOD will do to optical video discs....fortunately or unfortunately that's the way it is. Anything between DVD's and then is mearly a stepping stone.
                    Jason

                    Comment

                    • Brandon B
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jun 2001
                      • 2193

                      #11
                      Don't agree Jason. People will tolerate blips in music downloads and the negligble amount of time to do it.

                      The need it now nature of video along with the still very low penetration of high speed access means video discs are here for at least another decade. IMO.

                      BB

                      Comment

                      • Lex
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 27461

                        #12
                        Jason, why don't we focus on the technology that is here, the subject of this thread, ok?

                        You go ahead and believe that now, in 10 years maybe you can download a movie or two. While your downloading it, I'll be at home watching it. lol.
                        Doug
                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                        Comment

                        • Nolan B
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Sep 2005
                          • 1792

                          #13
                          Boy I was just going to write why I felt HD DVD was going to win, and why by all accounst BD SHOULD be dominating but isnt, but with the recent announcement from LG for a dual format player i guess my opinion will probably change.

                          Looks like many of our worries will go away next week.

                          Great News! I hope its true.




                          __________________

                          Comment

                          • Charles
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2006
                            • 119

                            #14
                            This is good news. If both formats survive because of this I wonder how much more it costs to build a dual format player vs a single. Hopefully this player will be backward compatible as well.

                            Comment

                            • Lex
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Apr 2001
                              • 27461

                              #15
                              I don't not support HD DVD, yeah, I made a pretty bold move getting the player I got for BD, but again, it was not a planned decision. I think it was written on the walls that this would be a very long fight even without the dual disc player announcement. That's my take anyway.

                              So, what was your reasons for thinking HD DVD would win vancouver? Also, by HD DVD supporter, do you mean HD in general or the HD DVD?

                              Charles, since both formats players were backward compatible, I think you will see it here as well, with one caveate, the only output method supporting upconversion would be HDMI. Whereas a player like my Samsung outputs an upconverted signal over component vid. I'll plan to keep both.
                              Doug
                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                              Comment

                              • George Bellefontaine
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Jan 2001
                                • 7637

                                #16
                                Well anyone who has read any of my posts on the format war knows where I stand on the subject. The possibility of a dual format player sometime this year sounds interesting, but I won't jump too quickly until I see there are no issues with the new player(s). As for downloading movies, well that's not for me. I am a collector, period.
                                My Homepage!

                                Comment

                                • Hdale85
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 16075

                                  #17
                                  I'm not happy with the VOD thing either. One of the problems is that when you get a movie (PPV) here anyways there is no multichannel audio on it and I bet the video is compressed in some way to make it faster to download or what not of course this is not FiOS.

                                  Comment

                                  • aud19
                                    Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 16706

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Brandon B
                                    Don't agree Jason. People will tolerate blips in music downloads and the negligble amount of time to do it.

                                    The need it now nature of video along with the still very low penetration of high speed access means video discs are here for at least another decade. IMO.

                                    BB
                                    FIOS TV and U-verse are available now and will quickly expand IMO. Before you guys dismiss it and assume things about the service quality etc you really should read up on what they have planned for it. The systems are IP-based but on a closed, proprietary network managed by the service providers. Such a structure eliminates the downsides associated with typical Internet video distribution (insufferable buffering, for example). HTMag had a great article on FIOS last month FYI





                                    But that's the last I'll mention of it...you guys continue to bury your heads in the sand : :lol:

                                    Back to the thread...even if one format wins, I doubt very highly I'll dive in and I don't think I'm alone there.
                                    Jason

                                    Comment

                                    • Charles
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2006
                                      • 119

                                      #19
                                      I agree that they should be backward compatible and able to upscale even if only over HDMI/DVI only. It would be nice to have 5.1/7.1 component out for audio for those of us who have pre/pros without HDMI and want to take advantage of the ever changing HD sound formats.

                                      Comment

                                      • Brandon B
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Jun 2001
                                        • 2193

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by aud19
                                        FIOS TV and U-verse are available now
                                        Available in some areas does not equal in use by the majority of the movie buying public. Downloads have to replace sales volumes of tens of millions of discs for them to abandon them as the preferred format. At least down here under the sand where I am.

                                        BB

                                        Comment

                                        • aud19
                                          Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2003
                                          • 16706

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Brandon B
                                          Available in some areas does not equal in use by the majority of the movie buying public. Downloads have to replace sales volumes of tens of millions of discs for them to abandon them as the preferred format. At least down here under the sand where I am.

                                          BB
                                          Last I checked BD/HD-DVD are nowhere even remotely close to tens of millions of dics in volume As I said J6P is perfectly happy with SD-DVD's for physical media and anything between that and VOD or similar services is mearly a stepping stone IMO. The added confusion with format wars etc certainly hasn't helped matters. To be honest I think 90% of the public could really give two "poops" about either HD format :lol: I mean when even HT-aficianado's like myself, Gerorge and MANY others aren't willing/excited to make the leap, how you can you expect J6P support for sufficient market saturation?
                                          Jason

                                          Comment

                                          • Kevin P
                                            Member
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 10809

                                            #22
                                            Another thing I just thought of. DVD became popular because it replaced VHS and made a HUGE difference in picture quality and convenience. People saw it as the "CD" of movies. Plus the players and discs became affordable quickly.

                                            HD-DVD/BD are a bit like DVD-A and SACD to the majority of the public. To them, CDs and SD-DVDs are perfectly fine. On their 27" TVs, they won't notice much of a difference going to an HD format, just like they didn't see any benefit of high-res audio on their $150 WalMart plastic HTIB. The improvement of going from VHS to DVD (or LP/cassette to CD) just isn't there when making the jump to HD/BD, unless you're one of us with the fancy home theater.

                                            I have a feeling it'll become more of a niche format, like LD, SACD, DVD-A, etc. Something to hold us over until the next big thing comes out (whether it's downloaded movies, VOD, isolinear optical chips, holodecks, etc.)

                                            But what could make it big is if all future discs were made dual-sided, with SD-DVD on one side and an HD format on the flip side, like what Warner is proposing. I always thought SACD could have been a big success if hybrid SACDs replaced regular CDs.
                                            Or if player manufacturers stopped making SD-only DVD players, so anyone buying a new player would end up with an HD-capable player. But those probably are still a few years away.

                                            Comment

                                            • Blindamood
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2003
                                              • 899

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Kevin P
                                              Another thing I just thought of. DVD became popular because it replaced VHS and made a HUGE difference in picture quality and convenience. People saw it as the "CD" of movies. Plus the players and discs became affordable quickly.

                                              HD-DVD/BD are a bit like DVD-A and SACD to the majority of the public. To them, CDs and SD-DVDs are perfectly fine.

                                              I have a feeling it'll become more of a niche format, like LD, SACD, DVD-A, etc. Something to hold us over until the next big thing comes out (whether it's downloaded movies, VOD, isolinear optical chips, holodecks, etc.)
                                              Wow, you must have read my mind. I feel the exact same way in regard to how the general public perceives these new technologies. Definitely nothing compared to the jump from VHS to DVD.
                                              Brad

                                              Comment

                                              • Nolan B
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Sep 2005
                                                • 1792

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Lex
                                                I don't not support

                                                So, what was your reasons for thinking HD DVD would win vancouver?

                                                My reason for thinking HD DVD was going to win the war was based on consumer support and trend of CE support. While HD DVD was slated by many to be DOA, and had only a fraction of the support that BD had it not only managed to jump ahead, but HD DVD kept its momentum. Toshiba with its A1 and 1 exclusive studio, managed to ward off the Samsung, Pioneer, Sony and over hyped PS3, Fox, Disney, MGM, LG etc. From what I could see Sony made many promises and came up short i.e. PQ and SQ, PS3 (for dates,numbers BD attach rate) that couple with 2Xs the price of HD DVD with no good reason ended up selling the early adopters on HD DVD. At best BD only equaled HD DVD in PQ and flagship BD players costing much more then HD DVD didnt even suppor the next gen sound formats.

                                                Sure both sides had thier fare share of glithes, but Toshiba in my opinion managed theirs better: Frequent under "promised, but over delivere" firmware updates i.e. 5.1 Tru HD, Micro Soft's grass roots approach from Amir who travelled from city to city to go to peoples homes in order to do demos, answer questions and present upcoming top secret stuff made me feel this side deserved my support. This was contrary to Sony's approach who down right lied about PS3 #s on more then one occasion, made statements in Aug 06 like "Nov 22nd the launch of PS3 will end this little war". My personal favorite comes from a thread i read started by a guy who paid 1k for a Sony BD player. After noticing the Sony player did not support the next gen sound formats he contacted Sony support via their only support chat and posted the result.

                                                Customer: Hi there I decided to support Blue Ray and just bought a Sony BD player. I noticed it does not support DD+ or Tru HD. Is it possible a firmware update may come to do so?

                                                Sony: No. We have no plans to provide firmware updates related to your request.

                                                For reasons I am not 100% sure of the BD side did something to upset HP to the point where they decided to not back BD exclusively but almost imidiately launch HD DVD products.

                                                Although no sales figures were posted I did watch the trend on the below link very close. It showed the sales trends on Amazon. HD DVD was outdoing BD from the beggining and still is. The only explenation I heard from BD supports was "BD supports dont use amazon" like they all got together and made that decision or something.



                                                On a person level i supported HD DVd because even if HD DVD loses I wouldnt be upset becuase I would have great software to date, a player which plays it and didnt spend 2Xs the amount for Blue Ray.

                                                In the end however, my opinion meant just as much as someones who support BD. Nothing. It was all a gamble.

                                                Im just glad there is a combo player coming so I the consumer can enjoy the most HD content available today. Its my opinion that studios have no more need to choose sides since combo players are now a reality and will make the cheapest disc possible. HD DVD.

                                                *I do want to add one more point to go somewhere in the middle of my post as to why I thought HD DVD would win. Porn is available on HD DVD.

                                                Comment

                                                • Nolan B
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Sep 2005
                                                  • 1792

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Blindamood
                                                  Wow, you must have read my mind. I feel the exact same way in regard to how the general public perceives these new technologies. Definitely nothing compared to the jump from VHS to DVD.

                                                  I dont agree with this. Personally I dont think the SACD or DVD A failed becuase of a war. I think they failed becuase people didnt care for Advanced audio or 5.1 music.

                                                  HD content is in much higher demand in my opinion

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Blindamood
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Sep 2003
                                                    • 899

                                                    #26
                                                    I think DVD-Audio and SACD failed to garner a large market share because people neither understood, nor cared about, these formats (i.e., CD and MP3 are 'good enough').

                                                    My point regarding HD-DVD/Blu-Ray has nothing to do with a format war, it is merely the general public's unwillingness to understand or care about the differences, compared to standard DVD. For example: "Why would I shell out $500-1500 bucks, plus $25+ per movie, to get something only marginally better than what I already have?" (Your definition of 'marginally' of course, will vary. )

                                                    I think three things need to happen for this market to take off:

                                                    1) Players must support both formats (in addition to being backward compatible with DVD/CD).
                                                    2) Prices must become much more reasonable/affordable.
                                                    3) Standard DVDs must be discontinued as an option.
                                                    Brad

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Hdale85
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                      • 16075

                                                      #27
                                                      Yeah I think if DVD's were going to be discontinued then the HD Disc market would really take off. Thats what happend with VHS people were forced to change. Its like my 80 year old great grandmother who still uses a rotary phone she doesn't have to change so why should she?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Nolan B
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2005
                                                        • 1792

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Dougie085
                                                        Yeah I think if DVD's were going to be discontinued then the HD Disc market would really take off. Thats what happend with VHS people were forced to change. Its like my 80 year old great grandmother who still uses a rotary phone she doesn't have to change so why should she?
                                                        I wasnt into HT when DVD took over VHS. Did they really just stop making VHS and force people to adapt to DVD? If so, and since that worked, why would they possibly not follow the same trend. I mean even people with non HDTVs can watch a HD DVD downconverted to 480p.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Ovation
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Sep 2004
                                                          • 2202

                                                          #29
                                                          New releases on VHS only stopped in early 2006. I don't think we'll see exclusive hi-def media anytime soon.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • aud19
                                                            Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                            • 16706

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Ovation
                                                            New releases on VHS only stopped in early 2006. I don't think we'll see exclusive hi-def media anytime soon.
                                                            Yeah that didn't happen with VHS and is not going to happen with DVD's.
                                                            Jason

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Sim reality
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Aug 2005
                                                              • 173

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Vancouver
                                                              *I do want to add one more point to go somewhere in the middle of my post as to why I thought HD DVD would win. Porn is available on HD DVD.
                                                              Actually the tides are turning on that now... The bulk of the target demographic for porn also bought the PS3... So porn executives are now turning towards Blue Ray...

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Hdale85
                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                • 16075

                                                                #32
                                                                They did not completely stop making VHS they just made less and less and moved DVD all out onto the front shelves and left little sections in walmart for VHS.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Race Car Driver
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 1537

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Vancouver
                                                                  I wasnt into HT when DVD took over VHS. Did they really just stop making VHS and force people to adapt to DVD? If so, and since that worked, why would they possibly not follow the same trend. I mean even people with non HDTVs can watch a HD DVD downconverted to 480p.
                                                                  It was funny, over the year helping people that came into Best Buy. As I was in the car audio dept, and media was right in front of me, year after year the DVD selection got bigger and bigger, taking away from the VHS selection.

                                                                  Eventually people would ask me where all the VHS went, i would appologize and say VHS is only avail online now. What you see is all we have.

                                                                  I couldnt believe people still messed around with tapes. The convience and quality of DVD was night and day. But most of the people who wanted VHS were older people looking for kids tapes.

                                                                  I think HD will eventually be the standard, it will be accepted. HDTV is going to be standard here soon, and anyone who experiances it knows, comments, and agrees its just that its much better then "regular ol tv"

                                                                  What will it take to get there, as mentioned, backwards compatablility, price, and a little push (lack of selection of reg dvds, etc) When movies are filmed with HD cameras and avail on HD only... you will have no choice but to convert...resistance will be futile. :assimilate:

                                                                  Again this will be hard when so many people have/want your $50 DVD player for their 20-27" tv thats in their bedroom.

                                                                  DVD isnt going anywhere anytime soon. But neither is the HD format IMO.
                                                                  B&W

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Chris D
                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Dec 2000
                                                                    • 16877

                                                                    #34
                                                                    I was holding out on joining the HD disc world, but eventually decided for various reasons to get a PS3. Naturally, then, I picked up a bunch of BD's, too.

                                                                    Not sure how it's going to pan out. More and more, I'm guessing that one format will NOT flat-out win and eliminate the other. If anything, I'm guessing they're going to find a way to co-exist. It's not going to take off like DVD did after 1997--the leap in technology and quality isn't there like it was with DVD.

                                                                    We'll see.
                                                                    CHRIS

                                                                    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                    - Pleasantville

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Brandon B
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Jun 2001
                                                                      • 2193

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by aud19
                                                                      Last I checked BD/HD-DVD are nowhere even remotely close to tens of millions of dics in volume
                                                                      Oh, I thought you meant download would replace ALL physical disks. On the HD only front, you may be right as the overlap between HD consumers and people with usably fast download speeds is probably pretty good. Gadget heads like us.

                                                                      BB

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Hdale85
                                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                                        • 16075

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Just curious if anyone knows this? But was the poor video quality of the first BD movies due to the Samsung player? Or was it the discs compression? Reason I ask is the Samsung player dropped in price quite a bit and I've been thinking about picking up the BD-P1000 and the HD-XA1.


                                                                        I notice that Doug said that there were no PQ problems with his new Sony BD player. Doug have you watched any of the first released titles? Like Underworld or Momento?


                                                                        EDIT: Read up on some reviews and seems it was both. The samsung player had some noise reduction thing turned on by default but the new firmware update turns it off and makes load times quicker and a few otehr things. The discs are also better now useing the newer compressions.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Kevin P
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 10809

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Dougie's right... the very first titles used a DVD-type MPEG 2 compressor, which degraded the image quality to not much better than SD-DVD, plus the Samsung had a glitch that caused it to implement noise reduction. Newer titles are better, and Samsung has a firmware update to fix their 1st generation player.

                                                                          From what I've read, the PS3 makes for a wonderful BD player.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Chris D
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Dec 2000
                                                                            • 16877

                                                                            #38
                                                                            No complaints from me so far on how the PS3 plays Blu-Ray.

                                                                            ... eh... the one thing I can think of, is I'd really like multichannel audio outputs with an onboard decoder so I can use the new HD audio formats in some sort of form. I don't have the capability of receiving HD audio through HDMI. But, in any case, the legacy audio formats even sound better over optical than I got on SD-DVD before.
                                                                            CHRIS

                                                                            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                            - Pleasantville

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • fordster
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2005
                                                                              • 211

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Found this interesting article on Arcam's website: http://www.arcam.co.uk/downloads/Arc...%20Formats.pdf

                                                                              As you'd expect from a company that is not (currently at least) supporting either format and makes expensive "high end" DVD players they recommend sitting out the format war for now. However there is some interesting background information in the article.

                                                                              As for me, I'll probably sit it out for now. I don't have a TV big enough to take advantage of true high def (i.e. a 40inch 1080P capable display or better). I'm also not convinced that either side has finalised what their format can do and think later players will have features that the current ones don't (and probably a few bug fixes will be required too). Once (if) the hardware and software exist in sufficient quantities at a reasonable price (and hopefully one format wins or there is a good choice of universal players) and the higher end manufacturers are getting involved I'll reconsider.
                                                                              Dave

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Lex
                                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                                • 27461

                                                                                #40
                                                                                I have not watched Underworld or Momento. I've watched MI 1-3, Italian Job, Terminator 2, and Speed primarily so far on BD. Overall quality has been good, I have noticed some artifacts in places, but on those same discs other areas will shine like new money. Particularly, WOW on explosions, and any kind of smoke related fires. Detail and clearness is at some kind of elevated levels. MI 2, when Cruise climbed the side of the mountain, you were there with him, and the motorcycle chase scene in same film, outstanding!

                                                                                I've not done any wonderful comparisons yet. I have thought about buying 1 film in both formats for comparison. Maybe I will... But then comparing a dedicated player to a game system add on, may or may not be a fair fight.
                                                                                Doug
                                                                                "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Lex
                                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                  • Apr 2001
                                                                                  • 27461

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I found this quote amusing.

                                                                                  Fujii announced that the technical feasibility for a 51 GB, triple-layer HD DVD disc has been confirmed, with the standardization expected by the end of the year. Currently HD DVD discs are 15 GB per layer, but the capacity is currently being expanded to 17 GB. Single-layer Blu-ray discs are 25 GB, with dual-layers clocking in at 50 GB.
                                                                                  I mean if HD-DVD is going to expand capacity, it must be at 1 Gig more than current BD expectations, lol. Please, can some of these people get a life?
                                                                                  Doug
                                                                                  "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • gross30
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Jun 2005
                                                                                    • 282

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    This HD-BD scenario is just going to be a see-saw batttle. All I hope for is a 2nd or 3rd gen descent dual player with all the bells and whistles, and I'm in !! It seems to have really heated up in the last couple weeks or so. Great info and posts. On the sidelines......dg

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Brandon B
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Jun 2001
                                                                                      • 2193

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I am NOT replacing my googolphonic setup with the moon rock needle until there is a disc format with a gamma ray laser and 10^12 layers.

                                                                                      BB

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Chris D
                                                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                        • Dec 2000
                                                                                        • 16877

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Lex, there are some wide variances in quality (both P and S) for discs in both formats. There are "tier ratings" out there helping people pick those movies that are in the highest quality for their format. I just watched "Corpse Bride" and "Blackhawk Down" while are both among the top 5 BD discs out there so far. Fantastic.

                                                                                        If you're looking for the best quality disc that's on both formats so you could compare between the two, "Pearl Harbor" is getting some good ratings. (for PQ and SQ at least)
                                                                                        CHRIS

                                                                                        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                                        - Pleasantville

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • comeup
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Jul 2005
                                                                                          • 356

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          What HI FI Magazine in their December issue says they would not recommend the samsung BD-P1000 or the panasonic DMP-BD10 saying that they are over priced for what they do. They say the (dvd video discs) played on the Samsung is no better than their budget dvd at $150 and the panasonics is no better than the Denon's 1930 player at 250 bucs. They also said the built quality is like todays budget players.The Panasonic was given the edge because of 7.1 analog for future tru hd audio. Both did well in the high def picture quality. I was leaning towards hd dvd, but after finding out how alot of these HI Def players do with regular dvds I will investigate more and choose one that will play all discs very well. I haven't found out anything on how some of the higher end players do with dvd video discs.
                                                                                          Blake

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