HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[Chris D]

EDIT: PS3 is excluded from the deal

Are you sure about that? They may not give you the 5 free movies at time of purchase, but you can get the 5 free movies by mail-in with purchase of a PS3. I'm doing that right now.

[impala454]

Wow, did that really happen? I haven't seen that in news anywhere. If you have a link to official information about it, that would be interesting to read!!!

I believe it's just a rumor but definitely believeable IMHO. First posted here: http://news.filefront.com/tag/payoff/

It also says that Toshiba was very surprised by the move because they were in contract negotiations with Warner & Fox to go HD-DVD exclusive as recent as a week ago. I guess $500 million is a good way to negotiate too

[Chetk]

There’s really not much substance to the claim...

:roll:

[impala454]

Formatwarcentral.com seems to usually lean pretty blue, but they're reporting that Paramount is ready to follow suit as well and has some kinda clause to get out of their contract under the circumstances.

[Race Car Driver]

Are you sure about that? They may not give you the 5 free movies at time of purchase, but you can get the 5 free movies by mail-in with purchase of a PS3. I'm doing that right now.

Yea you can still get the 5 free by mail, i was hoping to get the "any five in stock for under $35 free" deal on top of that.

Ps3 excluded

Oh well, I will have a PS3 within the next month I believe.

[Race Car Driver]

Ok, I lied, I wont be getting a PS3 within the next month..










I bought one tonight All the local best buys (20+) are down the thier last 5 or less of the 80 gig with free motostorm and there are none in the wharehouses.

Im thinking the free game is ending or they may be putting a different game in it soon.

[Alloroc]

Funny, now that this 'format war' seems to be coming to a conclusion, I'm sure it will rapidly spell the end for 5 free disk deals and whatnot...

For continuity to this thread, here's the link I posted in that other thread wrt Paramount and their 'get out of jail free' card.....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

[Hdale85]

There was an official statement from paramount on engadget saying that they do not plan to jump ship from HD-DVD just yet and that it was all rumors. There are some bad things to the format war being over you know? Player prices will slow down in decline a lot and the discs will probably stay the same price for a very long time. Competition is always best for consumers.

[Race Car Driver]

Competition is always best for consumers.

I agree, but only if the consumers are buying

[Hdale85]

But you understand my point Honestly I would rather have Blu Ray come out on top simply because of the ability to have lossless audio and what not seems more universal in the end. But then again I really don't like Sony

[Chris D]

Yes, Paramount is sticking with HD-DVD. Although this may be a big swing, the format war hasn't quite ended yet.

There's been a big jump in PS3 sales lately. And for all of those HD-DVD fans who claim that none of the PS3 owners use it to watch Blu-Rays, (and therefore don't count) Sony just did a new study, 87% of PS3 owners use them for BD.

http://www.psu.com/87--of-owners-watch-Blu-rays-on-PS3-News--a0002355-p0.php

[Hdale85]

I never said they don't use it for blu ray I stated that it is a gaming console . Also i bet the reasons that its 87% now is for a few reasons. Free BD's by mail and the fact the new 40gb one comes with a free blu ray movie. There for they can count just about everyone they sell as them using it. My real problem right now with Sony is that they need to set a standard.... I was just talking to my friend about players last night and he was saying the Samsung BD-P1400 took almost 5 min to load a java bd. This is just crazy... In the end though I would be happier if Blu Ray won. And if anyone is going to win I'm sure its going to be them... If not it will be a combo player future but at this point that is looking unlikely.

[Chetk]

Yes, Paramount is sticking with HD-DVD.

Maybe. :W But I seriously doubt it.

[impala454]

Microsoft says they'd definitely consider doing a blu-ray addon for the 360 if that's the way the market went.

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0851332620080108?feedType=nl&feedName=ustechnology

[Chris D]

Dougie, you're right, I take any study with a grain of salt that is done by the owning corporation. But I think Sony is making an intelligent move by offering free Blu-Ray movies with the PS3. The biggest thing that I myself run into, time and time again when trying to educate the public, is that they just don't know what's POSSIBLE with fine audio and video. Why would someone spend good money for a $1500 receiver, unless they know what it can do for them? But once you show the public what high-def really can do, in a good setup, it makes it all worthwhile. What I don't understand is that my first PS3 (which got stolen) came with a rather poor quality BD of Talledega Nights. Geez, if you're going to try to show the public what high-def can do for you, I'd think you'd want to put on a better show than that.

other stuff...

Actually, Paramount has come out and officially stated that they are choosing to stay with HD-DVD for now. Hmmm... lemme see if I can find an official link. Now, on the other hand, there are some rumors that Universal may go to BD-only now. However, there is NO official information on that. Just that Universal decided not to declare anything at CES.

http://www.psu.com/Universal-is-silent-at-CES-2008--a0002369-p0.php

Other news here, on the topic, let's see...

Just because Warner went to BD doesn't mean that their subsidiaries have to, apparently. But yes, HBO and New Line have now come out and said that they are going to BD as well. Apparently, Lord of the Rings is already in the works. I don't care, LOTR would be AWESOME on ANY high-def format!

http://www.psu.com/HBO-and-New-Line-turn-Blu--a0002368-p0.php

[Race Car Driver]

I snagged a Samsung BD-P1000 today. It was on clearance/open box. It still qualified for the buy any BR player and get 5 free discs instantly in the store.

So for $213 out the door I got
BD-P1000

Cars
Pans Labrinth
Live Free or Die Hard
Blade Runner
Pirates at world end.

I think the player will go on ebay

I asked the sales people what was more popular, they said since the WB info, BR has been flying off the shelves.

Needless to say, the employee that rung me up was suprised and bummed she didnt know about that player being so cheap. :lol:

[Chris D]

Hey, good find! On that note too, though, it'll be interesting to see what happens with HD-DVD hardware and software. I wonder if there will be some good sales, where we can pick up stuff for good prices. The war's certainly not to that point yet, though.

[littlesaint]

I still prefer HD-DVD since adding a PS3 to the mix, but looking at the announcements at CES, I think Blu-ray is finally coming along feature wise. The PS3 doesn't really "fit" into my HT setup, so I'll probably be picking up a profile 2.0 BD player this summer. The Panny BP50 looks like the first BD player to be on-par with my XA2, but its coming in with a bit of a high MSRP. That's my biggest complaint with the BDA is they are selling profile 2.0 players at a premium when really, these are features (internal decoders, secondary decoders, ethernet, persistent memory) that should have been there from the start like HD-DVD.

[littlesaint]

New sales

In the wake of the very Blu CES, Toshiba is slashing prices. The MSRP for the A3 is now $149.99, the A30 is $199.99 and the A35 is $299.99.

Also, at Amazon, all HD-DVDs are 30% off, plus up to 50% off on select titles for each format.

Blu-ray 50%
HD-DVD 50%

[George Bellefontaine]

In the wake of the very Blu CES, Toshiba is slashing prices. The MSRP for the A3 is now $149.99, the A30 is $199.99 and the A35 is $299.99.

Hmmm, I wonder if Toshiba is trying to clear out the warehouse for some reason or other...

[littlesaint]

Hmmm, I wonder if Toshiba is trying to clear out the warehouse for some reason or other...

The announcement indicated they are trying to leverage pricing as an advantage even going so far as to tout the players as very good DVD players in addition to HD-DVD. Considering the A35 is now $100 lower than the cheapest BD player, it's very aggressive pricing.

[Chris D]

Huh... seems like a smart move on Toshiba's part. (all except for the fact that my cost for the A35 was based on the old price.... okay, so I got $100 or so off of it, too, but now that makes it seem like I paid full retail price)

I also saw that BD is really kicking it in, too. Something like 250 BD titles on sale up to 60% off, at Amazon.

[Race Car Driver]

Ive been in best buy alot the last few days, (about to head back before work) the BD movies shelves were a bit picked through, the players were non existant (they all said last week the flew off the shelves) Every time I was in there I saw atleast one person buying a BD player.

HDDVD was plentiful all the way around.

[littlesaint]

I think the biggest obstacle for HD optical formats is the adoption rate is not moving fast enough versus technology. Some of this could be blamed on the "war", but the bigger issue is DVD saturation, and a lack of HDTV saturation. Last year only $300M was made in HD formats, and player sales only accounted for 3% of all optical video player sales (more than half of that was the PS3). With new distribution services rolling out, by the time there is enough HDTV saturation, HD optical formats will be competing with the existing DVD consumer market (most if whom do not see enough "wow" factor to upgrade), and a new direct distribution market. At MacWorld, Apple announced the next iteration of AppleTV that increases quality to 720p and DD 5.1 for many titles. XboxLive already had has many 720p titles available. Neither of these services are equal to optical quality, nor are they perfect services in general, but this is just the start and HD optical doesn't have that big of a lead. What's more telling is Apple has distribution deals with every studio (including Sony). Something the optical formats are still "working out".

[aud19]

I think the biggest obstacle for HD optical formats is the adoption rate is not moving fast enough versus technology. Some of this could be blamed on the "war", but the bigger issue is DVD saturation, and a lack of HDTV saturation. Last year only $300M was made in HD formats, and player sales only accounted for 3% of all optical video player sales (more than half of that was the PS3). With new distribution services rolling out, by the time there is enough HDTV saturation, HD optical formats will be competing with the existing DVD consumer market (most if whom do not see enough "wow" factor to upgrade), and a new direct distribution market. At MacWorld, Apple announced the next iteration of AppleTV that increases quality to 720p and DD 5.1 for many titles. XboxLive already had has many 720p titles available. Neither of these services are equal to optical quality, nor are they perfect services in general, but this is just the start and HD optical doesn't have that big of a lead. What's more telling is Apple has distribution deals with every studio (including Sony). Something the optical formats are still "working out".

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28348

[bmowis]

Along the same lines, DVD prices are way down. You can go grab some old favorites for less then $10 each. New releases, where I am, anyway, are as little as $16.99.

HD Movies do not offer this sort of value. The HD experience vs. the Standard Def experience needs to be an intense improvement before I willingly spend double the money on a typical movie. I imagine that there are a lot of others in the same boat.

[Race Car Driver]

HD Movies do not offer this sort of value. The HD experience vs. the Standard Def experience needs to be an intense improvement before I willingly spend double the money on a typical movie....

After comparing the two I believe it to be...

I suppose it has alot to do with the remainder of the system also, not just the player.

[Hdale85]

I use an HTPC for BD and HD-DVD and the difference between them and SD material is no comparison. In both sound quality and picture quality.

[littlesaint]

I agree. I support both formats (though I mostly rent through Netflix) and will continue to do so until something better (either in quality or convenience) comes along. However, given the current economic leap required for HD formats, and given the direction the audio market went, I can see why many people don't see the necessity. How many people out there own 50"+ displays and HDMI capable AVRs? How many people already have DVD tech, and have it throughout their homes, cars, and portables? The leap from VHS to DVD was pretty simple. Not so for HD formats. That's not to say either format won't survive (and probably better than SACD or DVD-A did), I just don't think it will be market dominance like CDs, VHS, or DVD.

[drsiebling]

Along the same lines, DVD prices are way down. You can go grab some old favorites for less then $10 each. New releases, where I am, anyway, are as little as $16.99.

HD Movies do not offer this sort of value. The HD experience vs. the Standard Def experience needs to be an intense improvement before I willingly spend double the money on a typical movie. I imagine that there are a lot of others in the same boat.

I would venture to state that the BD experience is, indeed, an intense improvement over DVD. While video is dramatically improved, lossless audio is such a massive upgrade, that I can't even stomach low-bitrate DVD audio any longer. One of the more under-appreciated aspects of Blu-ray is the across the board lossless support. It is, frankly, a miraculous thing! Just check out Ratatouille and Live Free or Die Hard for prime examples of this startling improvement!

[Race Car Driver]

Yea I just watched Live Free or Die Har on BD last night :T

High Def Media is soooo much better. I am glad I havent bought many DVDs over the last year...

Gives me something to lookforward to buying now.

[George Bellefontaine]

Now that I have a Bluray player I haven't been buying any standard dvds. When 3:10 To Yuma came out I had already purchased a Panny BD 30 player so I bought the movie in Blu. Future releases that I may have purchased in standard will likely be added to my Blu collection--providing they are released in Blu. As for difference in PQ between Standard dvd and hi-def, well it is usually in the jaw-dropping detail, even with things as simple as a scratch on a fence. I use a Helios H4000 upconverting player for my standard dvds and it takes the image to near hi-def, but for that sparkling detail, it has to be hi-def.

[Ovation]

Maybe my projection screen is not big enough or my resolution isn't high enough--720p Sony VPL-AW15 with a 64 inch 16:9 DIY screen (or my PJ video processing is simply very good) but, with exception of Blade Runner, I have to say the improvement I see is noticeable, but not spectacularly so with HD DVD (I have an A2--will add a Blu-ray player later this year, probably in the fall). I watched The Bourne Ultimatum last night with my wife and after the movie, we compared a few shots with the SD on the flip side. I could see the improvement, but she had a very hard time finding much to get excited about. I know it's not the best film for that comparison (and I did not show her Blade Runner--she doesn't really care, she just indulges my hobby) but even I have to say the improvement was not "jaw-dropping". Later, I did an A/B of Casablanca and the same thing held true. The improvement was greater than with Bourne but it was not "OMG!!!! WHAT AN AMAZING...!!!!!11!!" (I'm exaggerating, of course--I don't react like that to much of anything). I'm happy I upgraded and I appreciate the higher quality, but I think the key is to manage one's expectations. I think if I had a 40inch HDTV with internal video processing of equal quality to that of my PJ, I would be hard pressed to see the difference unless I was doing a direct A/B with a lot of titles. Blade Runner, though, would be an improvement even on a 99$ portable DVD screen (assuming I could hook up an HDM player to such a display). But that owes much to the rather poor transfer of the SD DVD as well.

Essentially, as I've gone through about ten HD DVDs (of both recent and classic origin), I can say that the improvement, in my setup, over SD DVD is evolutionary, not revolutionary (except, again, for Blade Runner). I'm not unhappy but, perhaps, just a touch disappointed. However, I know there is room for improvement from the hardware end in my case (better projector/screen) but there is also the "jaded" factor setting in. I've had HD cable since August and at first, it was "WOW" and now, it's become the "standard". Perhaps if I'd gone HD with HDM before HD cable, the "WOW" factor would have been greater than it has been. It's all very nice, but I think we can become spoiled pretty quickly.

[Race Car Driver]

And here I have blade runner sitting on the shelf un opened... now it sounds like it was all hype.

Ahh well

[George Bellefontaine]

Well, perhaps screen size has something to do with it, along with the display and the player. My screen is 92" wide and my projector is 1080p with 24fps capability and my Bluray player sends it 24fps, which is even better than 1080p at 60fps. I'm not sure the difference between standard and hi-def would be all that great on smaller screens, but it definitely is noticeable on my setup.

[Ovation]

And here I have blade runner sitting on the shelf un opened... now it sounds like it was all hype.

Ahh well

No, it was not all hype at all. It is the one where I've seen the greatest improvement over the SD DVD. They're not even remotely in the same league. My comment about the portable DVD player was meant to say (apparently not very well) that the improvement is so great on Blade Runner that it would be readily apparent even on such a small, low grade display. I will be watching Blade Runner far more often now than I have before because it looks so good.

As for display size, my current room and its associated furniture/equipment does not really allow for a bigger screen unless I seriously compromise my front three speaker placement (I have my gear set up for optimal hi-res audio playback, within the limits of my room and gear budget, and this has caused me to sacrifice screen size and placement--it is also why my disappointment alluded to above is slight. I know I could improve the image if I prioritized the visual aspect of my setup, but I would then have to sacrifice the audio set up and that is not something I'm willing to do. We all have compromises to make in life. If ever I come into serious money, then I will have a cinema room and a separate audio room. But it ain't likely anytime soon.).

[George Bellefontaine]

then I will have a cinema room and a separate audio room. But it ain't likely anytime soon.).

I know what you mean. I'm 71 and have only had a separate room for audio and a HT for about 9 years now. Growing into this hobby takes time and money for sure.

[Hdale85]

Well the Nvidia hardware codec is supposed to be pretty darn decent of scaling and I notice a large improvement between that and HD-DVD's and Blu Ray. I think with 1080P you would notice a much larger improvement though especially if you have something like a 100" screen. Ovation how far back to you sit from your 65" screen? Maybe your just sitting to far back for that size to see the difference?

[Race Car Driver]

:thanku:

No, it was not all hype at all. It is the one where I've seen the greatest improvement over the SD DVD. They're not even remotely in the same league. My comment about the portable DVD player was meant to say (apparently not very well) that the improvement is so great on Blade Runner that it would be readily apparent even on such a small, low grade display. I will be watching Blade Runner far more often now than I have before because it looks so good.

As for display size, my current room and its associated furniture/equipment does not really allow for a bigger screen unless I seriously compromise my front three speaker placement (I have my gear set up for optimal hi-res audio playback, within the limits of my room and gear budget, and this has caused me to sacrifice screen size and placement--it is also why my disappointment alluded to above is slight. I know I could improve the image if I prioritized the visual aspect of my setup, but I would then have to sacrifice the audio set up and that is not something I'm willing to do. We all have compromises to make in life. If ever I come into serious money, then I will have a cinema room and a separate audio room. But it ain't likely anytime soon.).

Ahhhhhhhh :T

My bad!

I will wait until i get my ASW855 to watch this one opcorn:

[NMG]

Just my opinion, but I find that the difference between standard def DVD and HD-DVD to be such that if there is a movie I'm really keen on watching, I'll buy the HD-DVD instead of renting the standard def DVD. I'll still rent stuff if I don't plan on EVER watching it again, but for stuff that "may" have a re-watch, I'll glady buy the HD version if it is available. I find the PQ and SQ to most certainly be worth the extra few bucks.

I also plan on picking up a BD player as soon as I can save up some extra cash. Like some others, I don't really care which format wins. I'm happy watching HD-DVD right now and I'm sure I'll be happy watching BD when I grab a player.

[Ovation]

Well the Nvidia hardware codec is supposed to be pretty darn decent of scaling and I notice a large improvement between that and HD-DVD's and Blu Ray. I think with 1080P you would notice a much larger improvement though especially if you have something like a 100" screen. Ovation how far back to you sit from your 65" screen? Maybe your just sitting to far back for that size to see the difference?

I'm eight and half feet back (any closer and SDE becomes a serious issue). I know it sounds like I'm not all that impressed but that's not really what I'm trying to get at. I'm simply saying that a lot of people I've talked to (and some who've seen my setup) expect the difference between SD DVD and HD DVD to be as great as the difference between crappy analogue SD cable and HD OTA broadcasts. The reality is the difference is not that great, in most cases, and is less noticeable (to the non-hobbyist especially) on smaller displays (40-42 inch seemingly the "sweet spot" in general). When I show people the difference between SD cable and HD cable in my HT--every single person goes "WOW". When I've done the same with SD DVD and HD DVD, the response is far more muted. This doesn't mean I don't think it's worth the upgrade (otherwise I would not already have, in 3 weeks, over 30 HD DVDs in my collection). I just think it is important for anyone who hasn't yet "made the move" to be aware that the upgrade may not be quite as spectacular as the marketing hype (and the SD cable to HD cable upgrade) would lead one to expect.

[Chris D]

Remember a couple things, if you're trying to do a true A/B comparison to see if HD media is capable of a substantial difference over SD-DVD.

- Yes, resolution difference will be more noticeable on larger screens.

- If you don't have full 1080p capability, you aren't seeing everything that HD can do. (i.e. 1080p has a full 50% more resolution than 720p!)

- In reality, it's impossible to compare HD resolution to SD resolution on the same equipment. Either your player, your video display, or both will be upscaling the SD-DVD (or any other input) to high def resolution. So you're not comparing native 480i to native 720p (or whatever) you're comparing DVD upscaled to 720p, to native 720p. Still a difference, but not as great. Whatever the resolution of your display, it will ONLY show video in that resolution, and scale all input to that. The only way to show 480i is on a 480i video display.

- Similarly, unless you have equipment capable of playing the new HD audio formats, (and preferably staying digital as long as possible) you won't be exploring full capabilities of HD media.

[littlesaint]

I only have a 720p display and I still think HD-DVD is a noticable step up. Everyones wow factor is going to be different. I have an XA2 which has one of the better in-player scalers, and I have seen some DVD transfers that approach HD quality (Gladiator SE), but HD-DVD and Blu-ray are still far and away better.

Race Car Driver,

Blade Runner is the best HD transfer (HD-DVD) I've seen yet. Sound&Vision had a story about the transfer process using a 4k transfer and then scaling down to 2k. Plus, the audio commentary on the final cut is Ridley Scott himself, and at the end, he gives his answer to one of the greatest sci-fi debates in film history.

[Chetk]

Now that I have a Bluray player I haven't been buying any standard dvds. When 3:10 To Yuma came out I had already purchased a Panny BD 30 player so I bought the movie in Blu. Future releases that I may have purchased in standard will likely be added to my Blu collection--providing they are released in Blu. As for difference in PQ between Standard dvd and hi-def, well it is usually in the jaw-dropping detail, even with things as simple as a scratch on a fence. I use a Helios H4000 upconverting player for my standard dvds and it takes the image to near hi-def, but for that sparkling detail, it has to be hi-def.

:E :jawdrop: George George George!!! What happened?! After all that talk of a dual-format player, I read today that you bought a Panny DB 30?! :W

That's awesome man! Congratulations! :T

So, can you hear and see the differences in the various sound and video formats?

[Chris D]

What's the greatest sci-fi debate? Something about whether androids could become human?