HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[littlesaint]

What's the greatest sci-fi debate? Something about whether androids could become human?

The Director's Cut added footage that suggested Deckard was a replicant. Ridley Scott never affirmed or denied the suggestion, but left it up to the viewer to decide, which is really how it should be. In the Final Cut commentary he gives his opinion.

[George Bellefontaine]

What happened?! After all that talk of a dual-format player, I read today that you bought a Panny DB 30?

So, can you hear and see the differences in the various sound and video formats?

There's only two dual format players out there and both are laden with issues, so I said the hell with it and decided to buy a Bluray and a HD DVD player. But after the Warner announcement, I've decided to hold off on the HD DVD player and see what happens.

As far as seeing a difference and hearing a difference, my God, yes.

[Race Car Driver]

Jim Goldman of CNBC recently sat down with Steve Jobs to discuss the new and upcoming products Apple announced during the MacWorld Expo held earlier this week. Jobs was asked about the format war and if he thought Apple had usurped both Blu-ray and HD DVD with their addition of HD movie rentals to iTunes. His response was, "Clearly, Blu-ray won, but in the new world order of instant online movie rentals, in HD, no one will care about what format is where." We, of course, disagree with the "Mac Daddy" about the second part.

What he failed to mention about Apple's iTunes HD movies is that they use much lower bit-rates than Blu-ray and are only encoded in 720p, half the resolution of Blu-ray, which encodes all film content at 1080p (Full HD). The result is a picture which is only half as sharp, half as colorful, and half as beautiful as Blu-ray. Furthermore, only some of the iTunes HD movies have surround sound, and those that do only make use of the archaic Dolby Digital technology. Anyone who has listened to a PCM, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD Master Audio track knows that there is simply nothing that can compare to a lossless/uncompressed audio track.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=873

[littlesaint]

All true, but it's still better than DVD which is where the real competition is, and this is only the beginning. As bandwidth increases and compression technology improves, the gap between broadband ditribution and optical formats will tighten. Also consider that 720p is "good enough" for the majority of HDTVs out there. Apple must be on to something. They signed distribution deals with every major studio, even Universal who recently pulled their TV distribution from iTunes, and Sony who has a pretty big interest in Blu-ray. The studios will determine the HD "war" and their final decision may ultimately be neither.

[Chetk]

Here we go again with this "good enough" term. HD-DVD was supposed to be "good enough" wasn't it?

[aud19]

Here we go again with this "good enough" term. HD-DVD was supposed to be "good enough" wasn't it?

There's no real PQ difference between HD-DVD and BD apart from transfer quality and from most reviews I've heard there's more examples of good transfers on HD-DVD...

And while Apple TV might not be "good enough" for YOU and the small percentage of folks with high end gear able to take full advantage of the added A/V resolution, for 95% of the buying public with their less than 42" 720p screens and HTIB micro-systems, Apple TV will offer them more quality then they'll need and as littlesaint eluded to will only close the gap and quite likely pass HD-DVD/BD at some point.

[littlesaint]

Here we go again with this "good enough" term. HD-DVD was supposed to be "good enough" wasn't it?

Actually from a consumer standpoint, HD-DVD is the "better" format. Cheaper players, more features (until BD 2.0 becomes commonplace), no (enabled) copy-protection. True, Blu-ray has more bandwidth, but improved compression makes it unnecessary, and the disc capacity debate has become moot as well. Unfortunately, history has shown there's more to market success than having the better product, and for once Sony looks to have figured out how to win that game.

[impala454]

I have both (XA2 and BD30) and I see absolutely zero difference in picture or sound quality between the two. They both look & sound awesome IMHO.

The only physical differences I see in the two players is that my XA2 has an ethernet port and the BD30 doesn't (although the upcoming BD50 will).

[littlesaint]

The BD50 looks like the first standalone Blu-ray player I would consider to pair with my XA2. The MSRP looks prohibitive, but there may be deals to be had, and my PS3 should still carry some re-sale value when it comes out.

[Chris D]

FWIW, Best Buy is sending out coupons this week for 20% off **ALL** BD and HD-DVD players. Interesting. Mine doesn't say whether the PS3 is excluded, just computer drives and the X360 add-on drive.

[rdram]

"and for once Sony looks to have figured out how to win that game."

I doubt that without the PS3, SONY would have figured out how to win. I was about to pull the trigger on HD-DVD when the Warner announcement was posted. So now it's Blu-Ray. But from what I've read on this and other forums, it doesn't seem like there's a Blu-Ray player without an issue. Load times, freeze ups, inability to play certain discs...geez. Blu-ray sounds cool though.

[Race Car Driver]

"and for once Sony looks to have figured out how to win that game."

I doubt that without the PS3, SONY would have figured out how to win. I was about to pull the trigger on HD-DVD when the Warner announcement was posted. So now it's Blu-Ray. But from what I've read on this and other forums, it doesn't seem like there's a Blu-Ray player without an issue. Load times, freeze ups, inability to play certain discs...geez. Blu-ray sounds cool though.

Love my PS3 :T

IMO I believe it to be the best player on the market, best upgradablility, best value retention. Best support.

[june]

Sony 300 vs. 500?

Hello All,

thinking about getting a blu-ray. what is the difference between the sony 300 & 500?

[hifiguymi]

Hello All,

thinking about getting a blu-ray. what is the difference between the sony 300 & 500?

The BDP-S300 will not output Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD, or dtsHD Master Audio in bitstream form (so a receiver or preamp can decode them). It won't decode them internally and output them as multi-channel PCM either. All you get is standard DD or dts.

The BDP-S500 will output all of the above formats, except dtsHD Master Audio, in bitstream form and will decode all of those formats (again with the exception of the dtsHD Master Audio) internally as well. The only thing it will not output or decode is dtsHD Master Audio.

Eric

[june]

thanks hifiguymi,

if i do this, i'll use the 6-channel output from the sony to the 6-channel input to a rotel rsp-1068. i'm happy with 5.1 sound. i tried 6.1 but wasn't impressed. for now 5.1 will work for me. it will be to much $$ to upgrade my sound to the new formats.

will i get a better 5.1 sound from the 6-channel out/in or coaxial / toslink?

[Blindamood]

will i get a better 5.1 sound from the 6-channel out/in or coaxial / toslink?

If you want better sound (i.e., Dolby TrueHD or Uncompressed PCM), then multi-channel analog is the only way to get it with the S500. If I'm only interested in a standard Dolby Digital or DTS track (from my BDP-S1), then I'll use coaxial, and let my Rotel processor decode it.

[june]

hello brad,

i do want the better audio, so if / when i do this i'll try the 6-channel in / out set up. i just don't want to buy a new processor.

[Hdale85]

So if you have an HDMI 1.3 receiver the S500 won't output the encoded info for the receiver to decode?

[littlesaint]

So if you have an HDMI 1.3 receiver the S500 won't output the encoded info for the receiver to decode?

It will, but I believe the question was about a connection to a Rotel AVR that does not have HDMI.

[Hdale85]

Ohhh ok just making sure.

[Chris D]

FWIW, PS3 owners should go into the Playstation Store and download the Trailer #2 for "Wall-E". (Pixar's newest movie coming out in June) This trailer has INCREDIBLE picture quality, and I think it even beats Ratatouille on BD! We may have a new king of high-def PQ out there, and it's only a trailer. Can't wait for the movie to come out this summer, and of course the BD whenever it comes.

[George Bellefontaine]

An article on Reuters.com says that Netfilx will not be adding any new HD DVD titles for rental. That has to hurt.

[H.T.C]

Too many firms and/or studios have gone over to blu-ray and not hd-dvd.

When some of the animation film studios (like adv) went to one format it was over then.

[Chetk]

It's over. The fat lady has sang. The only thing giving hope to HD-DVD supporters are a few HD-DVD supporters on the internet. Not even Toshiba is releasing any positive news about HD-DVD. They are just keeping their mouth shut so they can, hopefully, clear out inventory. Although, they have not been able to do so successfully. They've had more returns than sells. It's just a matter of time for Paramount and Universal. I can almost guarantee they're getting ready to release Blu-Rays as I type this.

[littlesaint]

It's over. The fat lady has sang. The only thing giving hope to HD-DVD supporters are a few HD-DVD supporters on the internet. Not even Toshiba is releasing any positive news about HD-DVD. They are just keeping their mouth shut so they can, hopefully, clear out inventory. Although, they have not been able to do so successfully. They've had more returns than sells. It's just a matter of time for Paramount and Universal. I can almost guarantee they're getting ready to release Blu-Rays as I type this.

Still can't get Universal or Paramount on Blu-ray. They are still only announcing HD-DVD exclusives. What part of that don't you understand?

When they switch, it's over. Until then, your incessant babel is nothing more than fanboy rhetoric. It got old when you announced "it was over" 6 months ago.

[Chetk]

Still can't get Universal or Paramount on Blu-ray. They are still only announcing HD-DVD exclusives. What part of that don't you understand?

If Paramount AND Universal don't announce support for Blu-Ray by end of Summer, I'll buy an HD-DVD player and EVERY HD-DVD title EVER released up to that point. Would that make you happy littlesaint?

Go look at my post history. Everything I've said has come true. Whether Paramount or Uni support Blu or not does not nullify HD-DVDs defeat. They've already lost. HD-DVD will be a memory in 2 years. You don't have to believe me, but when Warner and Netflix refuse to continue supporting them, when there are more returns than purchases, it's over.

[littlesaint]

An article on Reuters.com says that Netfilx will not be adding any new HD DVD titles for rental. That has to hurt.

Actually, dropping it entirely isn't going to hurt that much. It's been near impossible to get an HD-DVD from Netflix of late anyway. The waits are so long I usually end up getting the regular DVD. There's more volume on the Blu-ray side, so waits aren't as long.

[littlesaint]

If Paramount AND Universal don't announce support for Blu-Ray by end of Summer, I'll buy an HD-DVD player and EVERY HD-DVD title EVER released up to that point. Would that make you happy littlesaint?

Go look at my post history. Everything I've said has come true. Whether Paramount or Uni support Blu or not does not nullify HD-DVDs defeat. They've already lost. HD-DVD will be a memory in 2 years. You don't have to believe me, but when Warner and Netflix refuse to continue supporting them, when there are more returns than purchases, it's over.

I don't care what you do. It's not personal except for fanboys.

The writing is on the wall, but for those that enjoy films, not formats, you still need both to watch all releases in HD. Even if Uni and Paramount switch, it will be some time before back catalog titles are converted if at all.

[George Bellefontaine]

Actually, dropping it entirely isn't going to hurt that much.

I should have clarified what I meant. I wasn't referring to the renters, I meant to say it would hurt the HD DVD camp.

[H.T.C]

As of now according to netflix itself,because of the warner deal,they will support blu-ray only.

[Hdale85]

I have to agree that eventually before too long here HD-DVD will or at least should just bow out completely. I think it would be in Paramount and Universals best interest to not drag this out forever as I think it could hurt them both slightly. Granted not much as their DVD sales are still much higher then HD discs.

[RebelMan]

HD-DVD IS over! It's just going to take some time for it to finally fall off the charts, like BetaMax of yore, but for all intents and purposes, it's over. The people have spoken.

[H.T.C]

I just want to point out that being smug about this topic would not be such a good thing and not justifiably at all, with the many hd-dvd players sold and confusion of the formats to consumers , lets not do the lowest common denominator thing and be insulting too each other.

Now with that being said, it seems the guys and gals over at blu-ray.com have popped the cap on the champagne bottle and are throwing a party now that bestbuy ,today, has issued a statement of support for blu-ray and with two companies from sweeden that have chosen the format.

If the other movie studios can just get it together and revise their strategy this format division can finally come to a conclusion.

[hifiguymi]

On top of the Netflix news, Best Buy has said it's going to put a greater emphasis on BD as well. It's not going to stop selling HD-DVD, just throw more weight behind BD.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6531259.html?desc=topstory

I think Toshiba, Paramount and Universal are going to have to throw in the towel very soon.

Eric

[Hdale85]

They don't have to but its going to hurt them if they don't I believe.

[Chris D]

Yes, here's links to the two stories of the day. First, Best Buy says that Blu-Ray is their "format of choice"... not really sure how they're going to emphasize Blu-Ray while still selling HD-DVD. Just more inventory and displays?

http://www.psu.com/Best-Buy-to-shine-spotlight-on-Blu-ray-News--a0002703-p0.php

Next, Netflix is going BD-only. ..."all HD-DVD rentals would be pulled once the life cycle of remaining stock has depleted." I wonder what the "life cycle" is... rent them out until the discs break? Better move all the HD-DVD rentals to the top of the queue.

http://www.psu.com/Netflix-announces-Blu-ray-exclusivity-News--a0002700-p0.php

I guess it was only a matter of time for this to happen in the format wars, where one side gets dropped like a hot potato. It may be premature for this to happen, but... so be it. And just when I thought HD-DVD wasn't quite dead yet, mounting a surge on Amazon's format wars tracker.

[George Bellefontaine]

This war should never have happened in the first place. Now there are consumers out there who have invested heavily in the HD DVD format in hardware and software and no doubt feel abandoned. However, the Toshiba players apparently do a good job of upconverting standard dvd, so all is not lost. But knowing this day was coming was the reason why I satyed on the fence so long. I went Blu-ray after the Warner announcement, not because I felt Blu-ray was any better than HD Dvd, but because it was obvious that HD DVD's days were numbered. No one, not consumers, not the studios, would continue to support two formats for any length of time. It just doesn't make economic sense. So come on, Paramount and Universal, there is no need in dragging this out any longer.

[Race Car Driver]

Yea, I want transformers on BR!!!

[Chetk]

This war should never have happened in the first place. Now there are consumers out there who have invested heavily in the HD DVD format in hardware and software and no doubt feel abandoned. However, the Toshiba players apparently do a good job of upconverting standard dvd, so all is not lost. But knowing this day was coming was the reason why I satyed on the fence so long. I went Blu-ray after the Warner announcement, not because I felt Blu-ray was any better than HD Dvd, but because it was obvious that HD DVD's days were numbered. No one, not consumers, not the studios, would continue to support two formats for any length of time. It just doesn't make economic sense. So come on, Paramount and Universal, there is no need in dragging this out any longer.

Woo Hoo! I like George alot better now that he bought a Blu-Ray player.

Just kidding...I always enjoyed conversing with George, even when he was fence-sitting.

[Nolan B]

The HD DVD promotion group seems to be cutting and pasting the same press release with every piece of bad news.

[NMG]

Other than having to shell out the cost for a second player, who cares? It's not like the move to BR will make existing HD-DVD players and software obsolete. I have my HD-DVD player for my XBOX 360 and I still love it. I'll also continue to enjoy the HD-DVD movies that I have and I'll continue to watch them in the future.

As soon as prices drop a little more, I'll also pickup a BR player and take advantage of that format. It's all good and I'm happy to have HD media like this, regardless of what the label says.

[gc8ej25]

This war should never have happened in the first place.

The war has its good points. Competition drove prices down and speed of technology innovation up.

[Ovation]

The war has its good points. Competition drove prices down and speed of technology innovation up.

Quite so. Without the "war", the cheapest Blu-ray player would be around 700$ and the initial quality issues with (admittedly a few, but the first few) titles may not have been improved.

IIRC, the same happened in the hi-res audio arena (though, of course, no one want HDM to become the video equivalent of DVD-A/SACD in terms of support). Initially, if I'm not mistaken, SACD was not meant as a MCH format. DVD-A pushed that element of its capabilities and SACD followed suit. And while I have no regrets with my 120+ SACDs, I would have far fewer of them if they weren't MCH. So I'm not sad there was a "format war" for HDM.

[Chris D]

So now on Amazon there's a Buy 3 for 2 BD sale again. A big question is, are we still going to be seeing as many sales (or really, any at all?) from BD once the format war is fully over?

[Hdale85]

Yeah thats kind of my worry. Is BD going to just leave the prices as is and not bring them down for a long time. No competition is surely not good for us but a format war isn't either. On the other hand the amount of hd media adopters is still rather small so maybe that will push sales?