Help plan oneplustwo's listening room/home theatre/family room/

[benthe8track]

This is a little bit of a tangent, but does anyone have a recommendation on how to wire the nCore signal cable? From the data sheet, it looks like the signal wires go to pin 2 and 3 and pin 1 goes to the chassis. Also, it has the shielding going to the chassis as well as the fourth wire in the cable assembly. Can I have the shield and pin 1 and the fourth wire all go to the same point on the chassis?

Yeah the shield and pin 1 both went to the same spot on mine IIRC--the screw holding XLR connector.

[oneplustwo]

Yeah the shield and pin 1 both went to the same spot on mine IIRC--the screw holding XLR connector.

How about the fourth wire that comes from the module? Did that go to the same point?

[benthe8track]

How about the fourth wire that comes from the module? Did that go to the same point?

The nampon? That went right next to the module I believe.

[oneplustwo]

Got it thanks. I got one monoblock started up. The other is missing the power cable so I need to relocate that.

[oneplustwo]

Where to put the electronics?

Hey folks,

I was thinking about putting all the sources and amps and stuff on the back wall so the front wall was entirely clear for whatever screen I wanted to install. The only concern there is that the run for the L/C/R front speakers and infinite baffle subs would be pretty long... probably about 35-40' when all the turns are factored in. Any concerns there? As long as I have a reasonable gauge speaker wire, I figure it should be fine, right?

[TEK]

For long runs, signal cables should probably be balanced.
Speaker cable must have enough gauge as you say, and I would consider the placement of them. For example not along a power cord.
Not sure if it might be bad if you run cables to different speakers right beside each other, if doable you should probably try to avoid it.

On the other hand, some invest 1000's of usd on 1-2m cables along, but as you are thinking about this I assume you are not that extreme about your cables...

[oneplustwo]

Haha, no. If Nelson Pass is ok with basic speaker wire of reasonable gauge, then I am too.

Signal cable runs will be short with this layout for sure. And to your point, I'll have the flexibility to run them intelligently so that should be easy enough.

[dar47]

Another option is to move the TV wall in 2' and rack everything in the hall. Just need to pass through the wall. You will have the IB manifold in hall that your walking by already.

[oneplustwo]

That's a good point. I was considering a relatively small manifold that jutted into the room as deep as the drivers are in the middle of the wall that would support a center channel speaker as well. But that's actually another reason to move everything else to the rear. Worried about vibrations effecting the record player primarily.

[dar47]

Are you wall mounting the TT? If on wall or on a stand you will probably not be pushing the IB vary much when playing the TT, mostly just movies. When the IB drivers are apposing there is no vibration till you go hard. Here are my 18's jutting back and a cart that sticks out less then the manifold. I would have no issue mounting a TT on my front wall.



Image not available

[oneplustwo]

What about putting the IB manifold on the left side wall (near the front) so that the manifold juts out into the garage? That would be cleanest but didn't know if there's enough directionality in those low frequencies that it would sound wrong. It would benefit from some corner loading as well, just like the line arrays. But it's really the directionality that I'd be worried about.

Thinking further outside the box... what if I switched the layout so the screen was on the right? Could the infinite baffle subs be in the rear of the room with all the electronics as well? Then the manifolds could be integrated into my cabinetry at the wall without jutting into the hallway or garage at all. And I can keep them either in the corners or whatever is optimal (given they'd be at the rear of the room instead of the front.) Might be a little weird from a traffic standpoint but that's a relatively rare use case.

[dar47]

Primary sub at the back would not be ideal, but the side would work. Usually 1 manifold on both sides but you could have 1 close to the corner array on the garage side. I suggested the hall because you could place 1 manifold close to the garage side just inside your array placement this would be like my setup. I have a corner base trap with the manifold just inside it. This was my room's best response with just 1 manifold.

Here was my old box sub placement next to the trap. Placing my IB close to this location gave me only a 1.5db null between 30 and 35hrz at my seating position to eq.

Old sub box placement.

Image not available

New manifold next to corner trap. Seating 18' from front wall.

Image not available

I was thinking you just protect your gear in a rack but you my like to display your gear and that would lend itself to gear at the back. If you have a sub in a box drag it around the room and you will get an idea of location response before you build.

[oneplustwo]

Awesome, I can live with ~1.5dB null or thereabouts to EQ. That's not much of a compromise at all. Certainly well worth the tradeoffs.

[oneplustwo]

Well, it's finally happened. Our house reno is underway. So although it will be some time until we get to the framing, I can at least show you where we're starting.

The old room is gone and here we have some jack hammering to reinforce the foundation:


Not much has changed as for what I'm planning speaker-wise. The only tweak may be to build the arrays integrated into the walls to get them as close into the corner as possible while also optimizing for enclosure volume. Sounds like 2.0-2.5L per driver should be about right.

One interesting tidbit...



Our house was full of old knob and tube wiring. There are a few spots where it appears the wiring got super hot (short?) to the point of charring the nearby wood! Not sure how this was discovered as it also appears as if some tar or some other insulating substance was applied on the wires. In any case, we're rewiring the entire house so this won't be an issue again. While I'm on the topic though, is there anything I should specify for the HT room itself? I'm not a huge believer in power conditioning or whatever, but thought it would be worth asking.

Finally, in case you're curious... here's a shot of the second floor totally gutted:


This is through the kitchen into the two rear bedrooms which happen to be directly above the first shot.

[BobEllis]

If it makes you feel any better, that shot looks like torch marks from soldering the wires together, not overheating.

Good luck on the renovation. It can be tough on relationships.

[oneplustwo]

If it makes you feel any better, that shot looks like torch marks from soldering the wires together, not overheating.

Good luck on the renovation. It can be tough on relationships.

Oh.... That makes a lot more sense. Learn something new every day.

[oneplustwo]

I'm thinking about how to build the corner loaded speakers as deep into the walls as possible. I happened to run into my contractor this afternoon and he said that he can work with me on the framing of the corners. No big deal since that section of framing doesn't actually need to do anything significant structurally.

Here's my idea for how to do this:


The front face of the 45 degree angle is a piece of 3/4" plywood 3.3" across, the same width as the squared off sides of the speaker basket. I would cut 45 degree angles to glue up to the 1.1"x1" square pieces. Those would in turn be glued to the framing which would be made up of a half a 2x4 which would be glued to a full 2x4 that makes up the "real" framing of the wall.

Also, on the backside (facing the garage and hallway), I'm thinking there would be 3/4" plywood screwed into the 2x4 framing along with a 1x1 support in the corner. I would be able to access the drivers from the rear through these panels.

That puts me at almost exactly 2.5L per driver (the numbered boxes are me taking the lazy way out to figure out sq in then multiplied by the 3.3" driver height and converted to L). And the drivers would be essentially flush with the walls minimizing reflections as much as possible effectively.

I'm not sure exactly how the interface with the sheetrock would work out... I guess they would tape and mud it. Also, I'm not sure how precisely the framers can build to this idea given it would need to be solid from floor to ceiling. So perhaps I could design in some "slop" either via slotted L brackets connecting the 1"x1.1" piece to the 2x4 or similar flexibility?

Would love upgrade ideas!

[oneplustwo]

Another idea is to make the baffle from a single piece of 1/4" aluminum. Do you think I could cut ~28 3" holes in aluminum with a hole saw without going crazy? And if yes, any suggestions for where to have a couple pieces like that made for me? Probably would be CNC'd but wouldn't have to be.

[PMazz]

You can route aluminum with a sharp carbide bit but definitely wear protection.

[Carl V]

You can route aluminum with a sharp carbide bit but definitely wear protection.

how are condoms gonna help?
sorry couldn't resist.

agree sharp new carbides will cut that aluminum

[oneplustwo]

I'd rather not router the holes... but it seems there are carbide tipped 3" hole saws so perhaps that's the way to go.

Separate question... has anyone used rubber isolation mounts for new drywall installation to sound proof your rooms? I'm considering it for front and rear walls as well as the ceiling.

[Carl V]

another rubber isolation reference....couldn't resist.8O

you need to isolate & decouple the dry wall from your framing materials.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/furring-channel-with-resilient-sound-clips/

this is how I did it.... works well.

[oneplustwo]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. There are a couple variations but good to know you had a good experience with these.

another rubber isolation reference....couldn't resist.8O

you need to isolate & decouple the dry wall from your framing materials.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/furring-channel-with-resilient-sound-clips/

this is how I did it.... works well.

[oneplustwo]

Hey folks - Anyone know of any AV receivers with Dirac Live and Atmos capability? I've seen a couple that are pretty pricey and hoping to find one that's a bit more accessible. That could solve some of my HT vs. 2-channel angst that is tripping up my decision making.

[kevinm]

I've been really wishing Emotiva would come up with something. Feel like the XMC-1 was a couple years late - should've launched with Atmos.

[oneplustwo]

Yah. I don't think the XMC-1 is all that compelling given the price point and feature set. The Arcam AVR550 is about $3600 but has amplification built in addition to the latest DTS-X and Atmos decoders. Also not cheap... thus the question.

[PMazz]

Yamaha 1050 for ~$800 but no Dirac Live.

[oneplustwo]

Yah, there are a lot of options out there for Atmos, but few with Dirac live. And that seems to be a significantly better performer compared to the other room correction suites out there. I have time to see if anything else becomes available but the Arcam 550 is the leading contender at the moment.

[kevinm]

Are you looking to use Dirac for your entire setup? Or are you mostly looking to use it for 2 ch? You could always use a processor with Atmos and passthrough capability and then add a separate setup using Dirac for the 2 ch setup. Dirac can be used on a PC in addition to processors

[oneplustwo]

Yes, that's a thought I considered. And if I went that route, I'd probably go ahead and use JRiver for convolution of just the two fronts. The only issue that I've heard about is the syncing of all the channels. And I haven't read about a good solution for that yet so I was considering a more streamlined alternative.

[kevinm]

Have you looked into these?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series

[oneplustwo]

Yes, I have. Also interesting. I think one my biggest issues is that I have a turntable so the analog source thing kinda makes things complicated. But when I looked at the page again, the 88a (https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a) could make things more simplified. I can use the receiver as the processor for Atmos and whatever other source both digital and analog and then the Dirac live adjustments could go after all that switching and processing happens. I'm not sure if there's a guarantee the audio and video would sync. And I'd be limited to 5.1.2. But it's an option. Albeit an expensive one.

[oneplustwo]

OK, here's the new plan.

I'm going to separate HT and stereo systems to the speakers.

For HT, I'm basically going to use my existing low end AVR for anything requiring surround sound. Basically just movies.

For stereo, I'm going to use IIR/FIR convolution through my PC using JRiver and DRCDesigner. The sources will be as follows:
- Vinyl through a PS Audio phono A/D either through USB out
- CD through PS3 optical out
- Other streaming/high res music through the PC itself

The PC will output to my XDA-2 DAC and feed the nCore mono blocks and then the line arrays.

Although the PS Audio was not a planned purchase, it's actually not too bad an incremental spend since I need a phono preamp anyway and it means I don't need to buy a new AVR which would have had to have been a relatively expensive unit to take care of all the other requirements. And I'm a sucker for discontinued items on big discounts too!

That's the plan for now at least.

As for house progress, things are moving. Foundation reinforcement is under way with lots of holes dug and being filled with rebar.

[wkhanna]

Happy B-Day, 1+2!!!!

:dancenana::dancenana:arty::dancenana::dancenana:

[JonMarsh]

As for house progress, things are moving. Foundation reinforcement is under way with lots of holes dug and being filled with rebar.

Plans are always subject to change. Big holes dug and rebar are forever, or at least the foreseeable future! Hurray on moving the ball down the field! (I can't believe I've adopted that sports cliche, but it's often what helps me get through the day or the week- did we move the ball down the field?)

[JonMarsh]

And Belated Happy Birthday!



opcorn: :banana: :banana: :banana: :beer2: :banana: :dance: :dancenana: :dancenana:




:td:

[oneplustwo]

Thanks for the birthday wishes! And of course, another plan. Getting external sources through Jriver can only be done on a PC. And since I'm a Mac guy, I'm leaning back toward the OpenDRC unit. The downside is that the unit only get 6400 taps and there's not quite as much flexibility. We'll see if I change my mind but that is the way the winds are blowing at the moment.

[oneplustwo]

In other news... now that I *think* I know what I'm going to do with the signal chain, I'm considering what I'm going to do with the IB subs. I'm considering these two options:

1. Put them in the left and right upper corners, next to the ceiling and next to the line arrays.
2. Build a manifold in the center so the drivers can face each other. This would integrate into some built ins for the other equipment and the center channel speaker.

I can get some corner loading with option 1 (not that I need any more oomph I don't think). But I'm a little worried about the walls rattling since they're not cancelling each other out in this configuration. I don't think the location of option 1 is a problem as low freq are less directional. But I suppose option 2 is less risky from that point of view. Also, option 1 gives the option of "stereo" LFE but I'm not even sure if that's a thing. Finally, option 2 would make the built in design a little bit more complicated and larger in general. That's really only an issue because I'd like to minimize the foot print given potential interference with the line array FR. That said, it minimizes complexity with the wall build that my contractor would be happy about (although it's not really that complicated in the first place.)

I'm leaning towards option 1 mostly because I think it's the best acoustic option. And the fact that they're mounted at the ceiling and wall in the corner means there should be plenty of structure to minimize vibration. Also, I can overbuild it from the other side so it doesn't impact the inside. It also keeps it away from my vibration "sensitive" turntable.

[oneplustwo]

Here's my diagram for how I think things can connect:



If I get a USB/SPDIF converter, I can compare (to some degree) how the Open DRC unit compares with a PC based JRiver/DRC designer solution.

[oneplustwo]

Hi all,

It's been a couple months so I thought I'd send a quick update and run a question by you.

First, here's a picture of the rear of the house. The big gaping hole on the bottom will be a french door behind which will be the home theatre room.

Image not available

You can see the beginnings of a wall on the right and to the rear as well. The wall to the right will be the "front" of the theatre. In any case... the house is coming along. Obviously, still have a lot to do, but we are on track to finish around the new year.

As for the signal path, I'm thinking I need to prioritize simplicity. And it looks like the Emotiva XMC-1 will have an Atmos upgrade option in early 2017. So I'm thinking I may just get that as the processor and forego any external convolution in favor of what it can do via Dirac + parametric EQ and just leave it at that. The two nCore amps would still drive the front and left mains. The questions I have are about the surrounds.

Amplification:
For the 4 Atmos speakers plus the two rear surround speakers, I was considering getting three pro amps (i.e., iNuke 1000). The price of three of these is less than what you would pay for a "typical" 7-channel amplifier and there's plenty of power. Plus, I was planning on racking them on the other side of the wall so the fan noise wouldn't be an issue. I also still have a DIY chip-amp that I would use for the center channel and the nCores would drive the front left/right. Do you think this is overkill? Or too lo-fi?

Speakers:
I was planning on throwing a pair each (wired in series) of the same drivers as I'm using for the line arrays on a baffle and in between the studs for an in-wall installation. This isn't exactly hi-fi but I'm not sure surround speakers need to be per se. I was originally planning on the ZA5 in wall design from Zaph but I don't think I need $600 worth of surround speakers. So now I'm thinking of getting some commercially available (*gasp*) in wall speakers... Thoughts?

[dar47]

Coming along, an Emo A-700 is $600 and will drive the surrounds. Not sure what the center will be but those ZA5's might be nice for the side surrounds as most content is 5.1, where the sides are used a lot. The atmos and other rears are not as important and can be a 6" or 8" co axle mounted in the ceiling.

[oneplustwo]

I saw that. But I can get three iNukes for $450. And they are a lot more powerful although perhaps not as hifi which may not matter so much with surrounds.

Another option is to use the chip amp for the sides and the iNukes for the Atmos. Still need a center channel amp then.

I've also considered not bothering with Atmos. Perhaps a lot of work for not a lot of content. I could just wire them in for now and wait until there's a lot of content to pull the trigger on supporting equipment.

[dar47]

I started with a quality 5.1 then added cheap rears, might be a plan. The center should sound similar to the towers though.

[scottvalentin]

Definitely run the wire for the 4 ceiling or upper wall ATMOS speakers - I wish I had done that in my basement!

[Hdale85]

yeah I was just going to post that the XMC-1 is getting Atmos upgrade which will let it do like 5.2.4 I think? Also they are releasing a HDMI 2.0/HDCP2.2 upgrade this year as well.

Also they have factory renewed units right now for $1699 which is significantly less than the new ones.