Help plan oneplustwo's listening room/home theatre/family room/

[oneplustwo]

I've been alluding to a new home renovation and resulting home theatre/listening room in a few threads now. So I thought I might as well start a dedicated thread to share some more details and get some insights from this community. The permitting process in SF is ridiculous so I would not expect construction to start until late spring/early summer 2015. And the project in full will likely take 9 months (adding a third floor as well as redoing the ground floor.)

For starters, here's the current plan for the layout:


To orient you, this is the ground floor at the rear of the house opening to the back yard via French doors as indicated at the top of the image. A typical SF Sunset home, the full width of the house is 25'. And here are a few other details:

• TV Wall is 12' wide
• Room is 20' deep
• Ceilings will be 8', maybe a little more
• Floors will be polished concrete although we will have lots of area rugs and I am planning other room treatments as well
• The other side of the TV wall is a hallway that opens up to the garage (possibility for infinite baffle subwoofer)

Goals to optimize around:

• Maximize sound quality while also serving as home theater
• Maximize usable space given room will also serve as family room (three young girls have lots of stuff... and this will likely be a room for entertaining as well as it opens to the back yard where we are planning some sort of outdoor cooking/seating area)

Initial thinking for video:

• I would like to venture into the world of projection TV to maximize the space available and create more of the cinema experience. By the time I'm ready to purchase a projector, I'm hoping there will be decent high-value 4K projectors available.
• I'm thinking a pull down screen might be a good idea as well assuming there are acoustically transparent ones. Or maybe even if there are not depending on the size and what the audio execution looks like.

Initial thinking for audio:

• UPDATE (11/11/15): L/R will be something akin to the Murphy Corner loaded line array with Vifa TC9 drivers. This meets the original intent to maximize space. Considering the using the same TC9 drivers running full range for rear surrounds and in-ceiling Atmos speakers. For subs, I'm planning two infinite baffle drivers.

[*]Other options I've considered:

• Originally had thought ZA5 MTM for LRC as well as In-khan-neatos and other off wall designs.
• Originally also was going to use a single 12" boxed sub.

Other thoughts:

• For HT use, I've been talked into building for 5.1.4 Atmos speakers.
• For amps, I'll have nCore monoblocks for the L/R, iNuke 3000 for the subs, and probably an integrated AVR for the rest. The simplicity of this option outweighs the PASS DIY F5 and Aleph-X monoblocks (100W class A!) along with a couple chip amps that could serve as amplifiers originally planned.

At this point, I'm just looking for general thoughts on the options I've considered and what you would do given my preference for DIY and high-value projects.



================================================== =========
Summary of progress to date based on all the discussion below (updated 1/21/15):

Decisions made so far (subject to change):

• Murphy Corner Loaded Line Array with TC9)
• Zaph in-wall TM for surrounds
• iNuke 3000 for sub amp
• Integrated Atmos AVR with pre-outs to miniDSP
• Pair of Stereo Integrity 18" for IB sub

Still pending

• Screen type (pull down or wall mount, DIY or purchased, size)
• Projector (something similar to mid-level Epson but in 4K)
• HT receiver
• bass traps and other acoustic room treatment

[BobEllis]

I haven heard the ZA5 series, although I suspect that the tweeter isn't in the same league as your Pass clones. Since you have time, why not wait for the CatZ design or roll your own? Rolling your own in-wall seems to be the best option given your floor space requirements. Jon is likely to issue a CatZ design for stand mounting well before the on wall variant. Of course you could use stand mount speakers against the wall for non critical listening and pull them out when it's just you and your favorite music.

I'm also in the "You can never have too much subwoofer extension or SPL capability" camp for movies, so I'd put some money in the budget for an IB sub. Done properly IB is amazing. Properly meaning enough drive units and power to make them move along with the right EQ.

[oneplustwo]

Thanks BobEllis. I do like the idea of having stand alone speakers that I can just move in and out. And the CatZ might be just the ticket. We'll see what the timing looks like.

IB would be my first option too given the opportunity in the new space. What are the "high value" IB drivers these days?

[BobEllis]

The Ultimax-15 looks pretty good at $132 per liter of displacement. It's specs are also about perfect with a Qts of 0.47 and fs of 19.5 which would allow unequalized operation if you don't need to hear that single digit LFE in some movies. I'd go with 4-8 for a room of your size. The UM-18 is even better at $100/Liter if you can handle the size, and similar specs (Qts .53, fs 19.5). The 18s don't quite double the displacement of the 15s, but 2-4 would be a good bottom end. Total amp power requirement is similar.

Of course maximally flat response would indicate shooting for a Qts of .707, but I like mine critically damped (Qts .5). That's why I think these drivers are so good for IB applications. You can always throw in a Linkwitz transform to boost the apparent Q and/or extend the low frequency response should you prefer.

[dar47]

for IB, check in at the cult.

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/board/16/loudspeakers

Drivers FI car, I have Stereo Integrity 18's, Dayton Ultimax. I wouldn't mess with 15's go for 2 or 4 18's.

[oneplustwo]

Thx for the input on the drivers. I think I may end up with two 18" drivers. The stereo integrity ones seem like a great value. One behind each stereo channel or right under if I end up with an in wall design. I may also build in a bench/storage area at the tv wall so they could go in there as well.

Sounds like I need to look into an ep2500 or something similar (maybe the iNuke line?) to drive them. Still have lots of time though so maybe something better will come along.

Any ideas on screen type and size? Assuming I go with stand alone speakers I can just wall mount. For my room size I was thinking 100".

EDIT: Anyone use the iNuke for EQ with good results?

[dar47]

I have the 3000 to drive 2 18's and software is really good. nice to tweak on the note book and just usb to the amp, just can't do a low pass say at 10 or 15hrz.

[kevinm]

I've read you can use parametric EQ settings to create a pseudo HPF.

I've grabbed a pair of iNukes to run my subs - currently in the process of adding silent fans, a 12v trigger and painting black. From my tests, these things are phenomenal for the price.

[oneplustwo]

Would love to see the results of your work kevinm. I'm thinking my amps and such will be in the room, but perhaps I can get the sub amp in the garage. If not, the fan mod will be important for me as well. Any insights on the DSP/EQ setup would be great to know as well.

[---k---]

Yeah. I saw a post the other day about the iNuke highpass. It showed a boost around 20hz and the the 20 hz highpass. Combined it made a highpass somewhere between 10 and 20. It must have been at AVS. I rarely go there these days. But someone linked to something there and then one thing lead to another.

Though, way back, there were lots of posts about almost all equipment having a highpass around 9 - 10 hz. So, if you tuned low enough, and then with the natural highpass, you were almost safe. I even recall some measurements to prove it out. I'm not sure why there is a highpass in there, if it is even intentional or just a side effect of some other trade off. I've taken this route and never had a problem.

I bet Jon Marsh can explain it all.

[oneplustwo]

Ok. Sounds like between the iNuke and whatever receiver I end up with bass management shouldn't be terribly difficult. Need to plan some bass traps with good WAF as well.

I was thinking about the other amps and professors. I'm inclined to go with a mid level emotiva processor (UMC-200) and perhaps just use the amps I already have despite the power draw of two 100W class A amps. I could probably get an integrated receiver too for HT and use the Pass stuff for more critical listening. In a perfect world, I would like a dedicated stereo system but that seems overly complicated and perhaps not really all that worth while given how good HT processors are these days. Maybe a dedicated vinyl setup could be justified though.

[oneplustwo]

Another thought (and perhaps for Jon to ponder for the Cat Z) is to use the Finalists as my LCR since I can build in the "switch" for near wall/far from wall in the crossover.

[kevinm]

Would love to see the results of your work kevinm. I'm thinking my amps and such will be in the room, but perhaps I can get the sub amp in the garage. If not, the fan mod will be important for me as well. Any insights on the DSP/EQ setup would be great to know as well.

Hopefully I'll be making new stereo in the next week or so. Cabinets have been stained, now onto the poly coats. So far, the iNukes look like great choices.

By the way, I can definitely recommend the UMC-200 as a prepro. Excellent value with great capabilities - especially if have a mic and can use REW to measure.

[oneplustwo]

Kevinm - how did the finishing go? Any pics to share?

Also, with the UMC-200, I'm considering using it to feed a miniDSP for a pair of line arrays and that will be powered by my DIY Pass Aleph X monoblocks. The center, and two surrounds will likely be powered by DIY chip amps or maybe a Pass F5 for the center and a chip amp for the surrounds. Then iNuke powered infinite baffle subs would be fed by the LFE signal from the UMC-200. Any issues you see with that conceptually? The only thing I may shift is using the miniDSP to crossover to the subs from the L/R channels (effectively bi-amping) but I'm hoping the arrays will be sufficiently bassy on their own.

[kevinm]

Hi oneplustwo! Sorry for the delay...been a little crazy with work!

However, a few weeks ago I was able to finish





I am still doing lots of tweaking with my EQ, but it is safe to say that so far it has been magical!

I am using an iNuke 6000DSP to run my LFE channel off my UMC-200 - works very well. UMC-200 has a strong enough voltage to power to the iNuke without any boosting. Plus, the extra headroom is really noticeable.

Also, I am using a second iNuke 6000DSP to do exactly what you mentioned with the Minidsp. My sealed Statements are run down to 45hz and my bass bins run up to 150hz - all through the Minidsp. Has been a great experience so far! I really recommend the bass bins - they really add a presence and enable my towers to be truly full range - without any stress. (Should be noted I like a fairly hot house curve)

[oneplustwo]

They look great! Do you need the MiniDSP or can you use the iNuke to both EQ the mains as well as the sub? I know there are only 8 bands in the PEQ which may not be fine enough control (esp to EQ the corner loaded line arrays I was thinking about). I was going to use a MiniDSP because I was going to run my mains through my Aleph X monoblocks and while I was at it, use it to EQ the infinite baffle sub as well. But two iNukes with DSP would be much simpler.

[kevinm]

Thanks. They sound far better than they look

My Statements are run off of XPA-1 monoblocks and the bass bins off of the iNuke. But the iNuke could EQ yours mains (only if they are powering them though). Is your plan to use the corner loaded arrays as L&R and then your IB as LFE? If so, the UMC-200 plus iNuke would be more than enough control. UMC-200 will allow you to apply the crossover settings for the IB and speakers. Plus, it has 11 channels of PEQ for the mains. iNuke will really take care of the PEQ and limiter settings for your sub. I don't think you need the MiniDSP unless you plan to run dedicated stereo subs like I have.

[oneplustwo]

Do you think emoq or the inuke DSP have fine enough control? MiniDSP has 31 bands whereas the others I think only have 8 or 9. Also, is there enough flexibility from a dB level perspective to get everything flat?

Edit: looks like minidsp has 12db of range. Couldn't find what the inuke and emoq has.

Edit 2: Called Emotiva and Emo Q has 11 bands, 10dB of range. Maybe that's enough and if not, I can always add a miniDSP later?

[kevinm]

I use REW and a Dayton Audio UMM-6 for measurements and then set my Parametric EQ settings based on that - so I don't have experience with EMO-Q. I believe there are only 6 bands of PEQ for the MiniDSP. I believe you are thinking graphic EQ - which isn't as precise as parametric EQs. The UMC-200 has 11 - very respectable amount.

[dar47]

Ya, I'm with Kevin if the IB is the route your taking then the Inuke with it's parametric should work well. I found adding a high pass at 20 hrtz allowed the amp to go mid way on the gain and a simple 2 db boost at 33hrtz gave me nice flat response at my seat. (thanks foe the idea guys). :T

You have multiple pre-set saves so it's easy to do a house curve with say little more bottom end for movies and a flat one for music. Sounds like you need power for the subs why not start with the Inuke, you can always add more dsp later if needed.

[dar47]

Here is my 2 18's at 18' just the sub crossed at 60 hrtz for music, my boost the bottom for movies yet.

Image not available

[oneplustwo]

Thanks for the input gents. So here's my plan:

1. For the line arrays, I would try Emo Q first to get them flat using my Aleph X mono block amps.
2. I would get the iNuke as the IB sub amp anyway and first try Emo Q and if not, I can use the amp's EQ to get the curve I want.

Sounds like I need to get REW and a Dayton Audio UMM-6 to do some measurements!

And all this planning before my renovation is even through the permitting process... SF planning department is sooooo slowwww....

[kevinm]

Sounds like a good start. Definitely recommend using REW with a mic. Seeing graphs really helps enlighten things!

[Hank]

oneplustwo, you're off to a great start and by the time construction is done, you'll have a great HT combo room. For screen discussion, suggestions, there's a wealth of info on AVS forum's screen section: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/ Also look at the DIY screen section to see some Spandex AT screen ideas.

[oneplustwo]

Wow, great resource. At first glance, I don't see much downside to a painted on screen for my application. May need more thought into exactly which permutation given ambient light levels and whether I'm willing to spray it on vs roll it on. But otherwise, any reason not to go with a painted wall?

[oneplustwo]

I reached out to john Murphy to ask about his thoughts on my approach. He thought it would get me close at least. But he does use a graphic EQ on top of the parametric EQ as provided by the behringer DEQ2496 he uses. So that might be the more flexible approach if I really want to get the curve flat. MiniDSP has graphic EQ too but I haven't figured out if you can do one on top of the other as the behringer can. If anyone has any POV on either the approach or alternative ideas, would love to hear them. I Have time!

[fbov]

...Still pending
...

• bass traps and other acoustic room treatment

When constructing an HT room from scratch, one has the unique opportunity to "measure as you go" for room acoustics.
- start bare room
- measure as you add furniture, wall and floor treatments, etc. See the effect of the stuff you'll want in the room, regardless, before you add any acoustic treatment
- once you're about done, assess the residual issues, and treat those issues, and only those issues.

Given the difficulty absorbing low frequencies, you may measure the bare room and decide on an approach to bass trapping early. That's the one part of the frequency range you can predict in an empty room, given it's driven by wall/window/doorway locations.

Have fun,
Frank

[kevinm]

I just added a set of corner bass traps to my room and can say the change is remarkable. So definitely put a high priority on room treatments!

[oneplustwo]

Are there different bass traps that would be employed based on the exact frequency of the room node? Or is the limiting factor more a matter of just what you can negotiate with you better half?

Kevinm - would love to see your bass traps. Assuming they're DIY?

[oneplustwo]

Oooh, the stereo integrity 18's were on sale for $160 shipped so I picked a couple up for the infinite baffle sub. I will probably end up storing them for quite a while before they get used but I'm a sucker for sale. Or perhaps I can build temporary boxes for them for now and practice my room setup with my existing living room.

[---k---]

Are there different bass traps that would be employed based on the exact frequency of the room node? Or is the limiting factor more a matter of just what you can negotiate with you better half?

You can try to build a helmholtz device. I've seen some diy designs that were basically a piece of epdm rubber in a frame. But, they are usually difficult to tune to exactly the frequency you're trying to kill. The wideband approach with a lot of insulation is usually an easier and more effective route.

[---k---]

My corner traps. That have been stored in the crawl for a while because I needed the corners back. I need to look for photos of my wall panels.
I saw OC 703 at Lowes the other day.

[CraigJ]

Wow, great resource. At first glance, I don't see much downside to a painted on screen for my application. May need more thought into exactly which permutation given ambient light levels and whether I'm willing to spray it on vs roll it on. But otherwise, any reason not to go with a painted wall?

A painted wall would be my first choice, assuming you have no plans for screen portability and your drywall is flat. If you stick with the corner arrays, you should be fine with a big screen. On the other hand, if you build different large speakers and place them out into the room, you may cut into the large screen area and want to go with Hanks Spandex AT idea (or false wall).

MississippiMan, over at AVS forum, is a wealth of information regarding diy screens. Several years ago, he made a few post on the HTGuide and also offered very good advice to me on screen paint mixes.

[oneplustwo]

Thanks for the insight. I figure if the preference is a painted wall then I might as well do that. If I need a smaller image for whatever reason, I can just adjust the projector zoom. That said, a nearly 12' wide image seems too big to me but I haven't figured out the seating yet so perhaps not. The other thing to consider is what projector in my price range when I'm ready to buy will be ok with an image that size.

Speaking of seating position, given my room layout, any thoughts on where the couch should be? Against the far wall? A certain distance from the screen? Worth doing two rows?

Separate question, any suggestions on wife friendly black out shades for the windows and French doors?

[kevinm]

Let me preface everything I say with the admission that I am a n00b when it comes to room treatments. I haven't done any calculations, just general internetting around the theory and DIY options.

The rule of thumb I found from many of the experts on various forums was treat the first reflection points on your walls with 2-4in of Roxul Safe and Sound/Owens Cornering 703 (non-FRK stuff) and use corner bass traps with the FRK (or heavy painters plastic as in my case) in every corner you can. These seem to be the tried and true room treatments that will help, while ensuring you don't "over treat." I also read (again, more of general guidance, not fact), that a simple broadband absorber (2-4 inches of OC703 or Roxul S&S) across the corner will be about 80% as efficient as a full corner bass trap.

Well, I couldn't pull off the SuperChunk corner trap because I don't own the house and am not allowed to drill into the wall so aggressivdly. So, I needed something modular. I didn't want to go with just a generic broad band absorption (although I will run some tests once I build one), so I decided to build modular corner traps.

I visited Bob Gold's website looking at coefficients: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

Note how 3in of Roxul Safe & Sound is between 0.52 and 1.1 from 125hz to 4,000hz

And OC703 16in air gaps specs are between 1 and 1.2 from 125hz to 4,000hz

And lastly, 12in of the pink fluffy stuff is between 1.14 and 1.2 from 125hz to 4,000hz.

Well, OC703 is SUPER expensive (not really, but more than I wanted to pay for a little project) and ROxul Safe n Sound has to be special ordered from HomeDepot.com, so I thought what the heck, I have tons of the Pink Fluffy Stuff, let's see what I can come up with.

So, I grabbed 1/8in hard board from HD, (4) 3/4in oak dowels per trap (in my case, I built 4 of them - each 4ft tall), heavy duty plastic and my pink fluffy and built something a lot like what Ryan posted above me - mine is just lighter duty. Went with dowels because I didn't have a saw at the time. Of course, by the time I got around to building them, I had picked up a nice DeWalt 12in Compound Miter, but alas, I had to see if the dowels would work.

Here is what they look like:
(Place holder for now, will add picture after Monday when I get the last of fabric to cover them - half done right now)

So, how do they work? AMAZING!

Here is before:


And after:


Bass is far tighter and the room has noticeably deader sound. With this house having an open floor plan, my living room/media room/kitchen/dining are all the same room. So, I was impressed with the difference they made. Will be interesting to see how they compare to a more basic broadband absorption panel.

[oneplustwo]

Hmm, interesting. Given I may end up with the corner loaded arrays in front and I really only have one rear corner since the other side is open, it is really worth a bass trap in that one corner? Thinking some heavy curtains for the french doors and window will have to do for that wall and perhaps some panels for the first reflection on the opposite wall. Otherwise, there's probably not much more I'll be able to get WAF for. Although maybe I can build a custom corner cabinet for the one corner that is half book case and half bass trap if it would be worth having. (This would be the top right corner in the schematic above.)

Speaking of first reflection panels, has anyone tried making some with photo printed canvas? Thought that would be a nice touch. Even Costco does them now.

[---k---]

Someone at PE posted ones where their wife did an painting on them. So yes, it's been done.

[BobEllis]

Someone else posted an idea here (I cannot remember who, CRS setting in at my age) - http://www.spoonflower.com/how_it_works for fabric and http://www.movieposterdb.com/ for images to keep your movie theme going. Inexpensive enough you can have several front panels made and rotate them as the mood strikes.

[kevinm]

Someone else posted an idea here (I cannot remember who, CRS setting in at my age) - http://www.spoonflower.com/how_it_works for fabric and http://www.movieposterdb.com/ for images to keep your movie theme going. Inexpensive enough you can have several front panels made and rotate them as the mood strikes.

'

+1

Check out: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...rdent+inspired

[fbov]

Are there different bass traps that would be employed based on the exact frequency of the room node? Or is the limiting factor more a matter of just what you can negotiate with you better half?...?

Different designs have different responses.
- -k- mentions Helmholtz, which are very effective over a narrow frequency range (page 209).
- diaphragmatic are somewhat broader band, but they get large (page 201)
- slat (p. 215) or perf'ed (p. 212) panel absorbers combine characteristics of both, and can be made reaonable size with deep bass absorption.

The kind of thing -k- shows is just another absorptive panel, placed in a corner, not an actual bass trap. Make it like Everest shows on page 205 of the link, with an air-tight seal across the corner, and you have a bass trap. Even if designed for bass extension, the best you'll get with flat panel abosrbers hung on walls is what kevinm's showing; real improvement to just below 100Hz, but not much below there.

And while I'd love to show you all my DIY devices, the fact is I started with a darn good room, and have spent years understanding why, only to find a new appreciation for the impact of room construction, especially stick vs. cinderblock. The Three Little Pigs' first two houses sounded a lot better than their third!

Have fun,
Frank

[---k---]

Frank,
Thanks for posting that link. I'd forgotten about that book. It was on my reading list for a long time and never got around to it. I'm going to have to buy the book. We're currently shopping for a new place. A basement where I can build a man cave is on my list of features.

[fbov]

...A basement where I can build a man cave is on my list of features.

You're welcome; that link finds a lot of uses, and it's there because the book is now public domain - don't buy it, print it!

Basements are fine for man-caves, but when we go house shopping next, I want another room that's above grade and stick-built! Hard to beat as a starting point...

Frank

[oneplustwo]

Wow, cool stuff! My room is above grade and stick built so sounds like I'm ahead of the game already!

I think I can definitely get away with the absorptive panels. Are there absorptive drapes that I can use for the french doors that will double as light control? My google search turned up a few options and they appear to be similar in terms of absorptivity (i.e., ok down to lower mid/higher bass range) but wanted to see if you all had any suggestions.

[fbov]

Are there absorptive drapes that I can use for the french doors that will double as light control? My google search turned up a few options

You may want to read the chapter on absorption, as he talks about curtains, among other things...

The real value comes in a step-wise approach, measuring the room as it's being built, so the acoustic effects of furnishings are understood in the context of a listening room. You may not need as many panels if you have cloth upholstery, versus leather, for example. Or you may find the room is too dead with the cloth sofa, making leather beneficial. I can't predict your outcome any better than you can, so take the data while you're building.

Have fun,
Frank

[oneplustwo]

HI all,

Been a while... we finally got through another milestone in the permitting process. Structural designs are nearly done and then I can actually get real quotes from contractors. Not much has changed on the design itself. Electronics-wise, I'm now considering using a Mini DSP AVR HDA with some amps I already own instead of an AVR.

As part of that, I was wondering if folks believe there is something to be said about the .2 of 7.2 systems or if they're basically the same as 7.1 with the .1 Y-split. The MiniDSP HDA is only 8 channels but has pretty sophisticated bass management so I'm thinking I would use my two stereo integrity 18s wired in series for the infinite baffle and powered by a bridged iNuke or something similar. Also, I'm likely going to mount them facing opposite each other in a manifold inside the room built into the shelving I'll make myself. I'm assuming a single opening into the room makes sense here.

Thoughts?