Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Wayman]

An Ardent-related question: with recent praise being lavished on the Accuton C50-8-44, would this, with a pair of RS180s & a TBD tweeter, make a good (smaller) center channel for the wavcors?

Thanks, Wayne

[dar47]

Well, I see the 7" SW182BD01 is on sale at Solen for $92.40. You could use the C50 and maybe the Scan 6600 in a small center. I used the C90 with this combo and it matches well, of course I like large centers though.

[Horio]

Not sure what the overall interest would be, but I personally would love to see a center channel designed to match the Wavecor Ardents. Something along the line of what Dar has recommended (7" wavecors, Accuton mid and Scan tweeter) would be perfect.

[JonMarsh]

If I was going to do a small center right now, my choice might be a little odd, but it would likely be two of the SW182BD01 7" Wavecor's flanking a C18EN001; the Wavecors wired in series. That could be done in a fairly compact front panel, moderately deep to give room for the mid sub enclosure and the crossover. The dispersion and the intelligibility factor off axis should be superb, both important factors for a center channel. With a 6 ohm LF load, it wouldn't even be that hard to drive... would have to be a bit bigger than the PE 1 cu ft MTM box, of course. Say, 24" by 10", and the depth whatever required to make it work.

Keep in mind, the frugal guy within me says you might not notice the difference using RS180-4; looks like enough Xmax, sensitivity might be a match up issue though, even wired in series, if they really are 90 dB. Or maybe not. Would have to be modeled. Distortion difference might not be particularly noticeable. That doesn't mean the Wavecor fan in me wouldn't prefer to use them, just soft of trying to be practical, considering overall costs. 100Hz to 400Hz the RS180 works just fine.

[5th element]

In fact 100-400Hz is where the RS180 is at its most linear too with very low distortion levels.

[dar47]

Jon, Made a new center brace drawing you can replace if you need to.

[Renron]

Thanks Both! Much appreciated. I presume that the side braces are also 22 3/4".
Ron

[TEK]

Thanks Both! Much appreciated. I presume that the side braces are also 22 3/4".
Ron

No, it's 22 1/2" as shown on the first drawing.
It's shorter because the center brace is going 1/4" into the mid-tone divider plate, but the side braces is not.
That said, there is no real difference if they are 1/4" longer. You can either route out space in the mid tone plate as well, or just let them go 1/4" below the center brace.
But if you are looking for perfection, then they should be 22 1/2" :-)

[dar47]

Thanks, TEK.

Just a thought if you add to many dado's to constrain things it starts to make assemble slow and painful.

[Renron]

Thanks, TEK.

Just a thought if you add to many dado's to constrain things it starts to make assemble slow and painful.

Ahh, just the way I like it. LOL Exactly how I was planning to do things...... You guys so smart!
Ron

[Wayman]

The Wavcore Ardent, from the platonic conception of idealized forms, is defined as the embodiment of perfection that exists beyond our plane of perception, as an ideal of aesthetics, form and musical truth. Jon's meticulous engineering employing proprietary electronic and acoustic measurements and Dar & Ben's extensive use of CAD modeling has provided us with the ability to predict and manipulate the most ubiquitous of variables. The result is a wide bandwidth with minimal passband ripple and the fastest settling times of any dynamic transducer. The Wavecor Ardent possesses a transient speed and resolution that redefines the state of the transducer art.


Taken from an old Eidolon ad. I don't know how good Avalon speakers are but they certainly excel at hyperbole!

Cheers, Wayne

[benthe8track]

The Wavcore Ardent, from the platonic conception of idealized forms, is defined as the embodiment of perfection that exists beyond our plane of perception, as an ideal of aesthetics, form and musical truth. Jon's meticulous engineering employing proprietary electronic and acoustic measurements and Dar & Ben's extensive use of CAD modeling has provided us with the ability to predict and manipulate the most ubiquitous of variables. The result is a wide bandwidth with minimal passband ripple and the fastest settling times of any dynamic transducer. The Wavecor Ardent possesses a transient speed and resolution that redefines the state of the transducer art.


Taken from an old Eidolon ad. I don't know how good Avalon speakers are but they certainly excel at hyperbole!

Cheers, Wayne

Ha Wane that gave me a chuckle. Their marketing guy must have loved his thesaurus.

[JonMarsh]

Ha Wane that gave me a chuckle. Their marketing guy must have loved his thesaurus.

That is positively classic marketing mishmash and hilarious! :T

The more you know about what those words really mean, the more ludicrous it becomes... everything except Dar and Ben's CAD work! Of course, we actually do meet some of those criteria-

fastest settling times of any dynamic transducer

Once you get the system LF Q at 0.5 or less, there's no improving it further, and if you keep in the pistonic range of the drivers, ditto on the top end. And that 6640 is about as well controlled on the top end as anything I've ever seen.

When I get my new scope in (around Aug 13) I suppose I should do an impulse test like Stereophile, just for fun...

AND, unlike the Eidolon, we don't build cabinets out of that mushy MDF stuff... :B

Seriously, the Eidolon Diamond is a pretty good commercial loudspeaker... the Eton woofer is not a match for the Wavecors, though; the only pricing I have is out of date, and in pounds sterling; new, they're significantly more expensive than an Indra ($10K+), which is currently about $28K USD.

[dar47]

Okay Wayne, that is to funny but i can't imagine another speaker in this size i would ever want over them though.

[Wayman]

Lol, I was thinking about you guys when I was reading that old ad. Good you got a chuckle.

Well without getting to far into the wilderness we no longer have market capitalism but rather financial capitalism. Ergo, the best mouse trap doesn't win.

If music is what emotions sound like then these are winners. Thru on some old Marley and the congas sounded so natural that I was taken back a couple decades to a conga-playing musician buddy from the Caribbean I used to hang out with. Haven't thought about him for a long time. Good stuff.

All the Bob's sound good: Marley, Seger, Dylan, Geldof, Denver....ops, one Bob to far! Eva Cassidy: Fields of Gold; Stone Roses: Fools Gold; Maria Pires: 24 Preludes. Piano sounds very natural.

I'm having fun with these!

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

I'm having fun with these!

Cheers, Wayne

In the end, that's what really counts, and the reason we all do this... though I have to admit the collaboration and sharing, as part of the journey to get there, is more than a small bit of fun, too! :B

[Renron]

Wayman, like an old Steve Martin skit, Ramblin', Ramblin', Ramblin'. They missed the part about angels and virgins though.

[TEK]

Hi

Ref. the crossover section in the large build thread, where dar47 have some great overview photos of the crossovers.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41409-Wavecor-Ardent-Journal-the-first-Builds&p=596123&viewfull=1#post596123

As I actually dont know how to read drawings I'm probably wrong - but then I would appricate it if someone could explain where I'm misreading the drawing.

I'm working on the tweeter crossover.
When I look at the schematics and then on the picture dar47 have added - I dont get it to match up. Meaning either I'm misreading the schematics (very likely:roll or dar47 have not build the tweeter crossover according to the schematics (not so likely...)

If you follow line 2 (I assume that is +) from the signal source and down to the tweeter, as far as I can tell - you should find the first cap, C4 - that has a value of 4.7uF.
When looking at the picture of the crossover I expected C4 to be the cap to the left in the picture, the cap connected directly to the + terminal.
However, that cap is not a 4.7uF cap, it is a 10uF cap (C7). It's a bit hard to see on the picture here, but if you view the crossover at photo-bucket and zoom in you will see it quite clearly.

So, I'm I reading the schematic wrong? Or have C4 and C7 switched place in the photo from dar47?


Arsentxovver001.jpg Image not available

[dar47]

Ha ha, your right I caught that after I took the pick and forgot to take another. For some reason I grabbed the big one first and started soldering. The green 4 ohm resister R6 is placed before R3 but it is wired correct.

[TEK]

Ha ha, your right I caught that after I took the pick and forgot to take another. For some reason I grabbed the big one first and started soldering. The green 4 ohm resister R6 is placed before R3 but it is wired correct.

Ahh, that's a releaf. I started to wonder if I really did not understand the schmatics at all. Then I'm at least able to kindof trace what components I'm expecting to see where :-)

[dar47]

Sorry maybe Jon can edit the reference and put this one in.

[JonMarsh]

Will try to get that done this afternoon- down in the Valley, big training to do today.

[TEK]

I think that there is a naming convention error in the crossover schematic's as well.
I soldered wrong connections on my mid crossover, and I'm quite sure that was the reason. Other should be aware of that - and if there is some spare time maybe it would be an idea to update the drawing.

C3 is splitted into C3A and C3B.
But C6 is actually splitted into C6A, C6B, C6D and C3A1... That C3A1 trough me off as I was mainly looking at the top level schematics (found that easier to read).
Luckily dar47 spotted my mistake so I can get it fixed before anything is connected.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the feedback, always appreciated. It's a problem when trying to get a lot of stuff done in a hurry (at least for me!)- I was still updating my presentation this morning at 6AM before the Fuel Air Explosives training. :W

[sdl2112]

What a fantastic build. I've always admired the Avalon faceted speakers. You guys really nailed it! The proportions of drivers, the facets, slant look spot on. I'm sure they sound as good as they look.

Jon Marsh, DAR47 and Benthe8track...great team effort, ya'll should be very proud.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks VERY much for the kind words- this has been a very satisfying experience for me, working with DAR47 and Ben- and seeing other's get on board and have some fun with this, too!

I actually have guys at work that have heard about these, and are asking about how hard to build they are... I suppose if you have to ask, well, it's something you should think carefully about before undertaking! I say that in all seriousness, because one of our F.A.E.s, (Fuel Air Explosive expert) had a shop accident at home with a radial arm saw, cutting half way through his left hand. Out of deference to his ego and injury, I never asked for details about how it happened... (about a year and a half ago...). Painful just to see his hand, they reattached it and sewed things up pretty well, but the tendons and fingers don't work for the most part. Ouch! :cry: :roll:

[sdl2112]

I'm sorry to hear about your coworker. This hobby involves many disciplines. People good at electronics or acoustics may not be good at woodworking...this can subject them to unfamiliar risks trying a new skill too fast.

Anyway...I'm finally underway on a build of my own, it's been far too long. I should have a new build thread coming soon.

[BobEllis]

You might consider a power plane to cut the facets. I used the table saw jig initially but had to recut one due to a cabinet making error. It was so fast that I probably could have made all facets in the time it took to set up the table saw and jig for the first cut. Felt safer, too. Outline the final facet on the face, side and bottom of the baffle and plane to the line. That's how I am doing my center and any future faceted speakers.

[TEK]

You might consider a power plane to cut the facets. I used the table saw jig initially but had to recut one due to a cabinet making error. It was so fast that I probably could have made all facets in the time it took to set up the table saw and jig for the first cut. Felt safer, too. Outline the final facet on the face, side and bottom of the baffle and plane to the line. That's how I am doing my center and any future faceted speakers.

Your center?
Any details you can share about that one?

[BobEllis]

TEK,

It won't happen until spring, and depends on finances. I'm thinking it will be a "stubby" version, as it needs to be about 5" shorter to fit below my TV. That would mean increased depth to maintain woofer volume. From the woofers up the baffle will be the same as the current design. It might end up being a copy of the Poor Man's build, in BB and bamboo if I'm not feeling wealthy when it comes time to cut driver recesses. I'll be happy to discuss further in my build thread to avoid noise pollution here.

[sdl2112]

You might consider a power plane to cut the facets. I used the table saw jig initially but had to recut one due to a cabinet making error. It was so fast that I probably could have made all facets in the time it took to set up the table saw and jig for the first cut. Felt safer, too. Outline the final facet on the face, side and bottom of the baffle and plane to the line. That's how I am doing my center and any future faceted speakers.

Thanks for the suggestion. What power plane do you have. Does the cutting width need to be more than the facet width?

[BobEllis]

I've got an old Sears plane with a 4" wide blade (so old that when I bought it I was annoyed at the new-fangled polarized plug). Take shallow cuts and it doesn't need a lot of power. I was somewhat surprised that cutting the bamboo seemed to bog down router and saw motors less than MDF. The lower facets are just under 3" wide, the top a bit over. You can do it with a narrower plane, but the final cuts need to be extremely fine to avoid plane marks. You could eliminate any plane marks with a cabinet scraper or belt sander.

[TEK]

Sorry maybe Jon can edit the reference and put this one in.

Maybe this could be moved up to the first or second post?

[JonMarsh]

It will be- it's in the queue for today, but there's some other high priority stuff ahead- hours worth, unfortunately! Probably this evening...

[TEK]

Hi folks

Sorry to nag on about this, but there is still something that I'm not able to match up between the actual tweeter crossover picture and the schematics for the crossover.

I have included the crossover as well as the schematics below.
As I read the schematics (and I don't know if I'm reading it correctly) my understanding is that you should have one connection from C7 and into R3. On that side of R3 you should have nothing else.
Going out of R3 you should have a connection to R6 and to SP3-1.
But from the picture of the crossover there seems as if the input to R3 is connected to SP3-1. Or is it the way the picture is taken that is fooling me? It might be that they just looks connected but actually aren't, but they sure looks connected...





So the actual question is if my understanding of how this should be is correct, and if my version of the tweeter crossover looks OK.

[BobEllis]

Looks like you have it correct. In the picture there is no connection at your red arrow to the vertical lead. Just an unfortunate optical illusion.

[dar47]

Just the picture, the C7 to R3 joint is well above the positive buss wire and is not connected.

[TEK]

Thanks a lot, good to have that confirmed - you are the greatest :T

[TEK]

I did not find it in the initial post, so I'm asking here.
What is the sensitivity of the ardents? Is it 82db (stod something about that for the woofer - but I'm not sire if that applies to the whole system).
Recommended amp size?
Expected ohm?

[Renron]

I'd guess that the sensitivity of the Ardents will be around 86 or 87db.
Amp size? I remember a post recommending between 100 - 200 Watts. Note; 200 watts is painful loud with most speakers. How often do we turn the attenuation all the way off?
Ohms ??? How about impedance instead. Which varies depending upon the frequency. The very first post on this thread has the impedance sweep. It's the red line. Starts about 10 Ohms and peaks once (ported speakers peak twice) drops back down to about 6 Ohms for the majority of the time. Any decent amplifier should be able to handle these speakers.
I'm going to try them with a 50 Watt amp I built. (Pass F5) Should be no problem at normal volume.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

You're right - at normal volume, should be no problem. It's those times when you'd just like them to play 6dB louder that you need 4 x the power. Also, unfortunately, the majority of power amps are not built with power supplies that don't budge when you push them near their rated power, so one often has to buy a 200W amp to get a good 50W one....

[BobEllis]

That's the advantage of DIY, Jon. You can build a nice robust power supply.

We Pass lovers really tend to go overboard with the power supplies. My Aleph J and F5Turbo supplies will have a 400VA transformer and 272,000 µF per channel for 30 and 50W respectively. I don't expect any rail sag. I am concerned that they may not have the peak power to really rock out, but we shall see. If needed, I can build another F5Turbo and run the pair as balanced/bridged monoblocks and have all the Pass power my air conditioner can handle. I could end up rolling amplifiers based on the season.

[JonMarsh]

That's the advantage of DIY, Jon. You can build a nice robust power supply.

I could end up rolling amplifiers based on the season.

Yeah, the quiescent dissipation of my Cambridge Audio 850 is part of what's pushed me to class D! It's just a bit much in the summer time, especially since the family room isn't covered by the AC!

[Spaetzle]

Am planning a build, however have two pretty major house renos and work so was planning to purchase drivers and crossover components whilst working in U.S. Over next year, Which I do about every two - three weeks (based in sunny New Zealand). So could be a fairly broad time frame due to cost and physically lugging it all back bit by bit. The issue which those with more experience may help with is whether I run much of a risk of having drivers go out of production and how much of a headache this might be.. Obviously planning to use SW223BD02 and the other original build parts, crossover not such an issue of course.
Thanks for the thread and paving the way for the rest of us, look forward to reading the placeholders as they come avail. Despite reading pretty much the whole original thread I still can't find listening impressions of those who have completed, probably more late night fatigue!
Cheers

[JonMarsh]

Little risk on the side of the Scanspeak and Accuton drivers, i think. I think the current versions of the Wavecor driver will be around for some time.... but in your shoes, I'd pick those up first. Solen audio in Canada has been a very reliable supplier. one nice thing is that even these woofers aren't really all that large, though they are quite capable. Well, certainly not in comparison to 12" or 15" drivers, and they perform very well in this relatively compact enclosure. They were carefully selected for linearity and Thiel/Small parameters and a very linear motor design. I looked at and tested quite a few drivers.