Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, that reminds me of being in Colorado out in the sticks...

The Eagle Rd area is pretty busy, but again, compared with CA, it's a walk in the park. you wouldn't believe what it's like getting out of San Francisco on a Saturday morning on the Bay Bridge- even worse is what's happening to poor schmucks trying to get INTO SF at that time of day- on the weekend- not rush hour! I'm going to be very happy to be through with that. Driving around Idaho during the weekend and week days was a breeze in comparison.

The Eagle Rd area was pretty nice, but overall I'd say the Boise-Nampa-Caldwell region, big as it is, is a bit like a patch work quilt, as regards usage, planning, and how neighborhoods are laid out. What surprised me was how nice much of the southeast side of Idaho Falls was- especially off Sunnyside Drive, and around the S 25th East street, which crosses it out on the East side - very nice area, very good planning and layout of retail areas, "medical row", and developments. Too bad it's 4 hours further away. Still, I'll keep looking, though so far the places I've really liked out there have moved quickly. Just have to see what's going on in 2019.

The headlight upgrade has shipped, and I have a local guy who work's on GF's Passat who is looking into taking care of ordering and installing an OEM hitch.

I don't figure the overhead rack would do me much good; makes sense for Outback excursions with 3 or more passengers, but otherwise, my rear seats will be folded down all the time, and don't need the aerodynamic drag. So far, I'm amazed that the gas mileage is as good as it is, about 18-19 around town. At sensible speeds on the Freeway, around 24. that's not all that far off from my EX 4WD Element, in fact almost the same, but this is with a substantially larger vehicle, though with only 400lb more weight (4,000 lb for the 2WD FJ, versus 3600 lb for the AWD EX Element). The 4.0 L V6 has considerably more grunt, and overall, I'm quite pleased with the car.

Where it doesn't do as well is steering feel and linearity, and the sound system isn't as clean in the mids and highs. Plus this one needs work on the subwoofer- Brakes are a bit nonlinear, light initially, then really grab and haul things down. Kudo's to Honda for their linear feel.

Still, I think this is just what I need for the tasks ahead.

[Browncoat]

Jon,
The Toyota is perfect there and 2wd is fine since they don't get much snow in Boise (high desert).

Agreed, with the exception of last winter--the snow was epic (in Boise/Eagle terms). I live about two miles from Eagle road (north end), and I drove a 2WD Tacoma for several years.

[JonMarsh]

Agreed, with the exception of last winter--the snow was epic (in Boise/Eagle terms). I live about two miles from Eagle road (north end), and I drove a 2WD Tacoma for several years.

That's what I heard from the Gal Friday (actually Saturday!) at Eagle Storage- it was a whole different experience- but then the whole NorthWest had that problem last year, which for CA was a benefit, because we got plenty of water for a change, along with record breaking snowfall in the Seirras, and some ski areas still open this summer.

[csmielke]

Not familiar with Idaho Falls other than skirting it on travels to and from SLC. Prior to Eagle/Boise we lived in Park City UT for four years so, have done that drive many times. It does give you access to SLC and all that goes with the bigger city not to mention a great airport. I did hear from my buds that the snow pack was huge last winter and they were worried about runoff down the Boise River (some flooding occurred). Also screwed up spring and early summer fly fishing in many areas and that sucked.

[Browncoat]

I can see how the snow helped CA--my wife and I took a road trip through N. California and Yosemite last fall, and it looked desperately in need of water.

I spent some time in eastern Idaho, and it didn't suit my tastes, but it's close to Jackson/Yellowstone and City of Rocks, which is nice. Flooding in Boise wasn't too bad, but there was significant damage to parts of the greenbelt, and the river is still closed for floating. At it's highest this spring, it was nearly level with the Eagle road bridge just south of 44!

[csmielke]

Yeah, I heard that Bardenay's Restaurant had some flooding. I lived in Island Woods on the other side of the north channel around Eagle Island and lived across from the homes on the river. I used to watch the snow pack when I was there and actually purchased flood insurance one year but the only flooding that year was from the south channel in the back of the subdivision. I heard this year was way worse then the one bad year I experienced when I lived there. Great town and area.

[Renron]

I know you liked your Honda but the FJ is a whole 3 steps up in terms of tough. Personally, I buy 4 wheel drives simply because they pay for themselves the first time you use 4WD. IMO.
You got the militia wrong, you should join them. Strength in numbers and all. You DO want to fit in don't you?
Crap, you can't even buy a 50 cal. in Ca. anymore............... Sorry I meant Kommifornina. Lock & Load.
Glad you enjoyed your trip Jon.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

The Honda has been sold to an old friend who has a 95 Land Cruiser she bought new back then, and has never had it in 4 wheel drive- doesn't know how to use the transfer case. She's taken good care of it, just crossed 300K miles, but she wanted something inexpensive and economical... still has the Land Cruiser, but is nervous about taking it on long trips. May give it to her daughter...

And as I get used to the slightly numb steering and other idiosyncrasies, I do have to say the FJ is growing on me quite a bit- especially considering how differently it does things for only a few hundred pounds more weight. The radio, OTOH, is sort of impressive looking, but really mediocre in performance. Gotta do something about that.

you know, Ron, I'm pretty much used to not fitting in, in a conventional sense, pretty much anywhere! But yeah, I wonder if you don't have to have a special pass to bring an Element into Idaho more than one time...

OTOH, I did strike up a conversation with a "mature" guy at a Starbucks in Boise who was also driving an Element, and after we got done congratulating each other on our good taste in cars, talked about what he does up there- actually involved in financial services for smaller companies in the Bay Area that are wanting to relocate functional groups in start up efforts up to Idaho, because the overhead is so much lower, and you can pay engineers a lot less when the homes cost 1/5 to 1/8 what they do in California... interesting conversation.

Good to hear from you, been meaning to update you via email soon.

[Renron]

Yeah, that fitting in thing is hard......... 6 years ago we moved into the house we're in now because there was no HOA, now the nose and busy body neighbors have started an Architectural Committee, sending out nasty notes about garbage cans left out for more than one day and such. Time to move. This time to 5 acres with NO nothing except a well and a good fence. Why do people think they have to run others lives.....Rant out!
Ron

[Fdas]

Is this pretty close to the Wavecore Ardents for someone who can't build shit?

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SoundScape+8

[JonMarsh]

Is this pretty close to the Wavecore Ardents for someone who can't build shit?

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SoundScape+8

They may be... the price for a built speaker with that kind of hardware is quite low (Avalon gets about $30K with their cabinet).


Now, you should be aware that there are several Accuton midranges at different price points that from the front look the same, but trust me (I've measured them all) they don't work the same, and the C79 is the lowest in nonlinear and linear distortion.

Looking online at the best images I can find for these, I can't really tell for certain whether or not these use the Wavecor woofers, but it does LOOK like they do. OTOH, given they rate the sensitivity at 87 dB, and the impedance at 4 ohms, they must be using the nominal 8 ohm woofers in parallel, instead of using the 4 ohm version in series. Why is that important? Well, the 8 ohm version is really, like most 8 ohm drivers, about 6 ohms, and parallel two with a low loss crossover and you typically get a net impedance of around 2.5 ohms in the mid bass/low midrange. Tricky for some amps to drive. The Wavecor Ardent's are a very easy load, at about 5 ohms across the whole spectrum, except for the LF resonance, where it goes up higher. See the data earlier on.

We've thought about doing an Ardent with PR's, but actually the concept as Steve Manning has proposed it is styled more like some Wilson Audio speakers. It would work very well on paper with a net internal volume of about 60-70L; that is rather a bit more than the Ardent's 40L. The Ardent was designed to be as compact as possible, for WAF, and it seems to have met that goal for most of the builders.

But yeah, this looks to be a pretty good deal as long as you have a solid amplifier at low impedances. Certainly it's very good value compared with a lot of commercial speakers. but it may be built to a price, and may not have the C79. That's something I'd ask them about.

[Renron]

Parade rainer here,
On looks alone I prefer the Ardents cabinet with the facets it's very modern / classical in it's styling.
On price, those are a steal if that's the C79 with Wavecore woofers. I built the midpriced Ardents and my parts/wood costs alone were close to Salks price per pair. If he's using our parts with a ribbon tweeter and HIGH QUALITY XO components he's not making much per pair.

OTOH, I bet they sound pretty damn good. However, my Ardents sound Great!
Ron

[Fdas]

They may be... the price for a built speaker with that kind of hardware is quite low (Avalon gets about $30K with their cabinet).


Now, you should be aware that there are several Accuton midranges at different price points that from the front look the same, but trust me (I've measured them all) they don't work the same, and the C79 is the lowest in nonlinear and linear distortion.

Looking online at the best images I can find for these, I can't really tell for certain whether or not these use the Wavecor woofers, but it does LOOK like they do. OTOH, given they rate the sensitivity at 87 dB, and the impedance at 4 ohms, they must be using the nominal 8 ohm woofers in parallel, instead of using the 4 ohm version in series. Why is that important? Well, the 8 ohm version is really, like most 8 ohm drivers, about 6 ohms, and parallel two with a low loss crossover and you typically get a net impedance of around 2.5 ohms in the mid bass/low midrange. Tricky for some amps to drive. The Wavecor Ardent's are a very easy load, at about 5 ohms across the whole spectrum, except for the LF resonance, where it goes up higher. See the data earlier on.

We've thought about doing an Ardent with PR's, but actually the concept as Steve Manning has proposed it is styled more like some Wilson Audio speakers. It would work very well on paper with a net internal volume of about 60-70L; that is rather a bit more than the Ardent's 40L. The Ardent was designed to be as compact as possible, for WAF, and it seems to have met that goal for most of the builders.

But yeah, this looks to be a pretty good deal as long as you have a solid amplifier at low impedances. Certainly it's very good value compared with a lot of commercial speakers. but it may be built to a price, and may not have the C79. That's something I'd ask them about.

Given that I am going to be unable to build the Wavecor Ardents, and I don't think any of you guys are selling yours, I'm willing to accept this isn't 100% as good as that, but it does seem reasonable to assume it's a fairly good value considering the drivers they used.

@renron : I agree, the Ardent cabinet is fantastic and I wish it was possible for me to build.

Overall, this seems like a pretty reasonable speaker to target as part of a very high quality home audio system? I was thinking of hypex nCore amps, something like this? https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

That should be adequate to drive these speakers, right?

[Steve Manning]

Given that I am going to be unable to build the Wavecor Ardents, and I don't think any of you guys are selling yours, I'm willing to accept this isn't 100% as good as that, but it does seem reasonable to assume it's a fairly good value considering the drivers they used.

@renron : I agree, the Ardent cabinet is fantastic and I wish it was possible for me to build.

Overall, this seems like a pretty reasonable speaker to target as part of a very high quality home audio system? I was thinking of hypex nCore amps, something like this? https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

That should be adequate to drive these speakers, right?

There is always the option of having someone build them for you? Where are you located?

[Fdas]

Los Angeles.

[JonMarsh]

talk to Steve- he does great contract work- did the Minerva cabinets for me, and a set of Ardent cabinets might be well within possibility for him to take on.

[Renron]

talk to Steve- he does great contract work- did the Minerva cabinets for me, and a set of Ardent cabinets might be well within possibility for him to take on.

Are you sure you want Fdas to do that? (jk)

[Steve Manning]

Are you sure you want Fdas to do that? (jk)

Wise guy!

Fdas, despite the peanut gallery ..... if you think you might be interested drop me a PM and we can talk. Steve

[JonMarsh]

Hey Ron,


Geez, that's hitting home a little close- that's pretty much what Steve looked like when I showed him the first plans for the Minervas...


Or maybe that was me when he told me how much it would cost? I don't remember clearly... so much water under the bridge since then!

[Steve Manning]

Hey Ron,


Geez, that's hitting home a little close- that's pretty much what Steve looked like when I showed him the first plans for the Minervas...


Or maybe that was me when he told me how much it would cost? I don't remember clearly... so much water under the bridge since then!

I think the later since I was the one that came up with the crazy ass cabinet design

[JonMarsh]

Yeah... like my initial prototype build was such a exemplary example of practicality and simplicity... but you did take it to new levels! :T. :W

[Steve Manning]

Yeah... like my initial prototype build was such a exemplary example of practicality and simplicity... but you did take it to new levels! :T. :W

I thought "practical" was your middle name!

[Renron]

You guys who might be asking Steve for assistance with your builds are in for a treat, he is a true professional and a quality craftsman. We have discussed a few things over Emails and I would highly recommend his services. Won't be cheap, quality never is.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

You guys who might be asking Steve for assistance with your builds are in for a treat, he is a true professional and a quality craftsman. We have discussed a few things over Emails and I would highly recommend his services. Won't be cheap, quality never is.
Ron

Thank you Ron, that's very kind of you.

[JonMarsh]

How to get high resolution construction PNG's

Anyone that needs high resolution versions of the construction PDF/PNG files, the way to do that is as follows:

PM me. I have made them.

No one besides me can download the original high resolution PNF files (I found out). They're the same as the images displayed on the first page, just sharper and will print better on large format printers.

[TEK]

If anyone download all the images and maybe collects it in a pdf, maybe it would be a nice return to the community to make it available as a package to the rest of the forum?

BTW: what is the current status? Is there a complete parts list and crossover schema for a version using the newer wavecore drivers?
This thread is getting very long so I just wonder if it is easy for new potential builders to find
the info they need. Maybe a good idea to add a note and a short link to key info about the Wavecore2 edition in the
initial post?

[Horio]

Tek,

There is a modified crossover design for the newer wavecor drives (02's), which is what I will be using for my build. I've got a full set of drivers and half of the crossover parts sitting at home, but I've been lacking the time to get started. I'm considering having Steve help me get started.

[ergo]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

[Steve Manning]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

Very nice document Ergo!

[JonMarsh]

Great job! Steal from the best- the best from the two threads about this build!

Anyone that needs high resolution PDF's of the piece parts, PM me, and I'll email or setup DropBox link for you. Turns out only I can access the high resolution PDFs for download from my Photo-bucket Pro account.

[JonMarsh]

Great job! Steal from the best- the best from the two threads about this build!

Anyone that needs high resolution PDF's of the piece parts, PM me, and I'll email or setup DropBox link for you. Turns out only I can access the high resolution PDFs for download from my Photo-bucket Pro account.

[TEK]

Jon, maybe you could add a link to Ergos notes in the start of the thread? It will be hard to find down here with all the other stuff going on.

[JonMarsh]

I will do this. I also got an email from him about the high resolution PNG derived PDFs, and those will go out to him this morning, too, once I'm home.

[Steve Manning]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

Ergo is there a way of downloading this document?

[ergo]

I've added the box plans download links into the OneNote 'Box build' section. Both the PDF and PNG variation.

Steve - you can download the OneNote *.onepkg file from here
This is a current state 'drop' ... the OneNote Online version will update on fly as I do changes, but for off-line version like this I would of course need to export every now and then to keep it current.

I've started to draw the plans also into Fusion360 with parametric modelling, so that all material thickness's could be adjusted and model updates accordingly. I have front panel ready, but rest of it is on todo list still. Once I have that I will share that too.

[Steve Manning]

I've added the box plans download links into the OneNote 'Box build' section. Both the PDF and PNG variation.

Steve - you can download the OneNote *.onepkg file from here
This is a current state 'drop' ... the OneNote Online version will update on fly as I do changes, but for off-line version like this I would of course need to export every now and then to keep it current.

I've started to draw the plans also into Fusion360 with parametric modelling, so that all material thickness's could be adjusted and model updates accordingly. I have front panel ready, but rest of it is on todo list still. Once I have that I will share that too.

Thanks Ergo. I noticed you had some Fusion drawings in there, I'll certainly be interested in those as well. Out of curiosity can you save files in OneNote as older versions. It appears you have newer software than I do and can't open it.

[ergo]

Hmm, I've uploaded the same as a *.one file to same link. That one shows OneNote 2010-2016 when saving. The *.onepkg does not offer any version options.... I have the OneNote 2016.

[Steve Manning]

Hmm, I've uploaded the same as a *.one file to same link. That one shows OneNote 2010-2016 when saving. The *.onepkg does not offer any version options.... I have the OneNote 2016.

I way behind you, I have 2007. Now the document opens up in my browser fine, I just can't save it. I'll keep looking and see what I can come up with. Thanks Ergo.

[ergo]

https://www.onenote.com/download --> Windows Desktop
You might wanna try if the version offered there works for you. OneNote is not part of paid Office packages so should be free to use.

[JonMarsh]

Ooorah!

Outline, my favorite Mac One-Note clone (reads One Note files just fine) opens your files perfectly. I downloaded the 1st one.




Thanks much!

Steve and I both have Fusion 360, and I've been able to do some stuff with it OK, but I have to admit I think my reptile hind brain is wired for Shark FX still.... I can use that in my sleep or drunk or whatever, I haven't gotten comfortable enough with 360 yet, and haven't had time really in the last year.

[Fdas]

I'm exploring the feasibility of building the Wavecor Ardent project. I put together a project BOM. Can someone with some experience make sure I've selected the right parts? Specifically the ones I am concerned with are the 20ohm 12W resistors used in the woofer Net, as well as all of the inductors.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15CM-myepkPlhSc_T2-hMpNR9VEGMvFLbyBHQx-KcdDU/edit?usp=sharing

The resistors in the woofer net look to me like 5x 20 ohm resistors in parallel, which should measure 4 ohm, right? I've seen several different schematics now, one has 2x 22ohm resistors in parallel [11 ohm, right?]. So this particular point I am confused about. 1) Did I pick a good resistor for this speaker, and 2) Is this really the correct value?

For the L1 resistor I've seen 5.6mH and 5.1mH, which is correct?

For R1/R1B [mid net] I've seen 2x 8.2 ohm parallel, and 2x 10 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R2/R2B I've seen 2x 10 ohm parallel and 2x 22 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R4/R4B Ive seen 2x 10 ohm parallel and 2x 8 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R3 in [tweeter net] I have seen 3.3 ohm and 3 ohm. Which is correct?

For R6/R6B I have seen 2x 1.5 ohm in series and 4 ohm. Which is correct?

[BobEllis]

You didn't ask, but you might save a bunch of money buying capacitors and resistors from hificollective.uk. I did. There was another European site I used for some parts that hificollective didn't have. The name should be in my build thread, I can't recall now. At the time I bought, buying from Europe both saved 1/3 the cost of the parts (after shipping) and they arrived faster than Madisound or Parts Express shipments - one or two days.

The 5 Mills 20 Ohm 12 W are what I used in that spot because 16R M-Resist Supremes are not available.

[Fdas]

Thank you. I'll check that out. Looks like it would depend on what was available at the time of ordering. I will make sure to check that out when/if I actually pull the trigger on this.

[BobEllis]

If you can, you'll be happy. Such a worthwhile project. I wish I could afford a second pair for my family's summer house. I miss them.

[Fdas]

My lack of tools/cabinet building skill is a real bummer.