Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[dar47]

Thanks Jon, 1 more to update. Thought they would start asking for the grill, didn't add our cutout for the felt we used. Most making manually can decide on their own thickness and material for their grill and make a cutout to suit. Anyone CNCing can get Ben's file off the model.

[TEK]

What material did you use? Bamboo?
I guess that for us that can not source bamboo that MDF is the best choice?
From my experience, large thin sheets of plywood have a tendency to buckle.

[JonMarsh]

These can be done with MDF or HDF- the latter is harder to get, and at times, a subtle distinction. Either mills well, and yes, I think plywood of that thickness may often not be all that dimensionally (planar) stable, without some type of bracing.

I'll update/add this to the front this weekend.

[TEK]

Any information about what the tweeter, mid and bass chamber should be lined with internally, as well as the amount of fill to add to all chambers?
I expext that the tweeter camber is left empty, but would like a confirmation.
Also know Jon lined his mid chamber with led first, but not what if it also should be lined with something more.
Remember that the bass chamber on the isiris was lined with carpets(?), but dont remember to see anything about it for this build.

[JonMarsh]

Hello TEK,

What I did was line the mid/tweeter chamber with lead, then with ~16mm heavy felt, then stuffed with long fiber wool.

The bass chamber was not lined, as the natural wall resonant points are well above the operating frequency range of the drivers; I stuffed mine with Acousta Stuff, a synthetic fiber material designed for loudspeaker stuffing, but I believe high quality fiberglass would work just fine. An empirical way to determine the ideal amount of stuffing would require measuring the impedance curve, and keep adding stuffing until the resonant frequency starts going up, or there is no further decline in the impedance peak. It's not really very critical, considering the greater influence room positioning generally has on the overall bass performance, but naturally, you're better off with the lowest Fb and greatest damping, unless the driver is already with too low a Qtc, in that case, you probably shouldn't be using it sealed anyway! :W

Vance Dickason's 4th edition and later of the Loudspeaker cookbook has a fairly extensive section discussion on the topic.

[Horio]

Wavecor describes the difference here:

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01.html

Spec's:

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01_oem_only.html

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd02_03.html

I do not know mutch about this, but it does not seems to me that 02 will be a drop-in-replacement for 01.
Sensitivity: 85 vs. 83
Sd: 214 vs. 206
Fs: 26 vs 24
Qms: 14,4 vs 10,7
...

With the slightly different values, is this a matter of tweaking the crossover or would it require more substantial changes to the overall design if the Wavecor SW223BD02 was used? The BD01 seems to be getting harder to source, and Solen does have a nice sale running on the "newer" BD02. I'm tempted try and take advantage of the sale price and start to slowly stockpile parts for this epic build.

[JonMarsh]

The fundamental response of the drivers is quite similar, as is the cone; the T/S parameters are a bit different, which also translates into a bit more LF extension, but a dB or two less sensitivity. I have some SW223BD02 on order now from Solen; the price is attractive, and I think only minor changes to the midrange and tweeter padding will be required. I'm also looking at using the SW223BD02 in LF modules for a line array, with the Scanspeak PR, in about 30L per each set (driver plus PR)

[Horio]

The fundamental response of the drivers is quite similar, as is the cone; the T/S parameters are a bit different, which also translates into a bit more LF extension, but a dB or two less sensitivity. I have some SW223BD02 on order now from Solen; the price is attractive, and I think only minor changes to the midrange and tweeter padding will be required.

Well I may snatch (4) of the BD02 drivers since they are essentially half off right now at Solen. Also helps that the US dollar is so strong at the moment too. Since Wavecor appears to be phasing out the BD01 for the BD02, it may even be a good idea to make the BD02 the default LF driver once you have had a chance to do the testing and tweaks.

I'm also looking at using the SW223BD02 in LF modules for a line array, with the Scanspeak PR, in about 30L per each set (driver plus PR)

Line arrays with Wavecor LF modules? Now that sounds interesting...

[TEK]

I would probably have gone for the new edition, but as it turned out I got my hands on some of the old ones.
And as I knew I would like verification and probably som proven design before putting it all together I figured I just go for the old drivers.
Oi

[BobEllis]

For those in the US trying to order from Solen, break the order up into 2 orders of 2 drivers and select Expedited Parcel Post. This reduces the shipping cost significantly. The website gave me $505 shipping for 4 or $55 each order of 2.

Glad to hear that you're investigating the 02, Jon. I figured I could go active mid to woofer if needed.

[Steve Manning]

For those in the US trying to order from Solen, break the order up into 2 orders of 2 drivers and select Expedited Parcel Post. This reduces the shipping cost significantly. The website gave me $505 shipping for 4 or $55 each order of 2.

Glad to hear that you're investigating the 02, Jon. I figured I could go active mid to woofer if needed.

Just did the exact thing on Tuesday.

[Horio]

Thanks for the tip. I just did the (2) orders method as well.

[Renron]

When they shipped my drivers, they were in 2 boxes too. one Very heavy.

[JonMarsh]

Mine shipped on Tuesday, also using the Expedited Parcel Post trick. Pretty slick. Tomorrow I'm ordering some of the new PR223BD02 - much more usable T/S parameters than the first version, and they say it comes with a complete weight set for adjustments. This is good, as I need to add about 150gm for the planned application in a 1 cu. ft box. The real kick in the butt about this, is that the PR's are going to cost me more than the woofers! I'm painted into a corner, because they're the best small one available.


I would call this three way concept the Ardent Jr. but it will be a conventional box and not look anything like an Ardent. But it should move a lot of air for a small system. Right now I'm trying to figure out which tweeter I can fit in theres... :W I haven't tried a CAD drawing yet, but checking dimensions, it looks like I may just barely (with a customer LBL front panel without rounded edges) be able to squeeze in the RS52AN for the mid AND a RAAL 140-15D for the tweeter. Of course, that means there are some other tweeter options, too... but not bigger units like the 9700 or Transducer labs. With the dome mid, of course I can push the crossover higher without problems.

[Wayman]

I'm finally making some progress!

[5th element]

Nice one

[JonMarsh]

I'm finally making some progress!


[ATTACH=CONFIG]24194[/ATTACH]

Pictures on the internet means it's real! Good to see the progress... What are your veneering plans?

[---k---]

I'm finally making some progress!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24194[/ATTACH]

Wow! Nice.
With all these Ardent style builds surfacing around the internet, you guys are starting to make it look easy to build something that great looking.

[Wayman]

Thanks guys! At one point I didn't think I would get this far.

It is kind of like Bob's Poor Man build: could I do this with only very basic tools. Seemed to come out ok c/w all of its foibles.

Veneering (sigh) I clad the out side with .25 maple veneer ply. That is truly horrible stuff but I think I will just finish doing the facets and leave it.

I plan to do another set in the future.

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

I plan to do another set in the future.

Cheers, Wayne

This guys got cojones... even I have only built two pairs of Ardents!

[Wayman]

LOL, I didn't say anytime soon!

Next I will have to figure out reasonable compromises for a xover upgrade path.

Cheers, Wayne

[dar47]

Wow Wayne, This looks great.:T

The box looks well done why the need to redo? You can finish slowly from there and ya xover parts can be put in place then upgraded. Other cab built yet?

[Wayman]

Thanks, Dar! Yes the other cab is as far along.

This has been quite a learning experience. Now that I procedures that I know work, at least with the tools I have, I wouldn't mind doing another build. I really would like a little better veneer. I like the look of Jon's.

I am going to try the same baffle style on a 2-way cab next.

Cheers, Wayne

[Horio]

The Wavecor's have arrived. Boy, these drivers are pretty stout. Box was much heavier than I was anticipating.

[JonMarsh]

that they are! :T

I just got my PRS223BD02 PR's today, which are going to be used in new experimental stand mount speaker- similar frames, but a lot lighter without those big magnets!





As shown here, they come with multiple weights, allowing easy tuning for the specific application; I've already figured out from the data sheet which combination should work in a 1 cu ft enclosure.

[JonMarsh]

Updated Starting post; concept schematic added, and as built schematic corrected C6D value.

[JonMarsh]

For reference- starting measurements on the SW223BD02 - this is a near field sweep in a 28L test box. This is a box with PR, just showing the front wave; yes, the PR null in woofer movement is at about 22 Hz. No complaints here...

[Steve Manning]

For reference- starting measurements on the SW223BD02 - this is a near field sweep in a 28L test box. This is a box with PR, just showing the front wave; yes, the PR null in woofer movement is at about 22 Hz. No complaints here...

Looking good ...... is that one of the Wavecor PR's or one of the 10" Scan Speak's? It's to bad I don't live close I could give you a hand with boxes and throw in an extra one for the Ardent - S and see how that compares.

[Wayman]

My dream is a little closer!

A really big thank you to Dar, Ben and Jon!

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

Looking good, Wayne! Two thumbs way up, and congratulations! :T

It's a good feeling when you get to this point... they're a lot of work, but they're worth it.

[JonMarsh]

Looking good ...... is that one of the Wavecor PR's or one of the 10" Scan Speak's? It's to bad I don't live close I could give you a hand with boxes and throw in an extra one for the Ardent - S and see how that compares.

That's one of the ScanSpeak Discovery 26W/0-00 plus the SW223BD02 driver- that particular SS PR was done very well, as regards the default properties and mass load- it models well with a number of drivers I've tried it with in Unibox.



Price is sort of reasonable, (it's less than the Wavecor PR), and it's got a good bit of throw and Sd.



In some ways, this is going to be something like a mini TAD clone. Certainly inspired by the TAD systems with concentric midrange/tweeters.

I'm going to be off on Friday and all next week- I'll get around to the extra modeling tasks (dual woofers, 1 PR) pretty soon, see if there's any way to optimize it.

BTW, using the UMAX derived box that wan't cut for a driver, I just lined the corners with 1/2 the thickness of a 6" thick dow corning fiberglass. Enough midrange damping, but doesn't seem to kill the bottom end.

For those curious, putting the mid at the side of the enclosure (enclosure up in the air, about 48" off the ground), so as to combine front wave and PR rear wave, (that's how the test box was built, on opposite faces), this indicates things are working as expected pretty much from Unibox- some room influence of course, but nothing most of us couldn't live with easily...

[Horio]

Looking great Wayne! The veneer looks very nice. What technique did you use for gluing/applying the veneer?

[Wayman]

Thanks Horio!

The front and sides are .25 maple veneer ply. The facets are pre-glued veneer. 3M I think.

I tried several finishes. In the end I used 3 coats of Minwax hand rub satin poly.

Cheers, Wayne

[dar47]

Wow Wayne, Looking good.:T

Looks like they need some xovers then just buttoned up?

[Horio]

Interesting. So instead of putting down 1/8" hardboard prior to veneering as others have done, you simply glued veneer ply onto the main cabinet faces. Something to think about.

In the past I've had good luck with raw veneer and heat lock glue (iron on method) but my max panel width of 11 inches. I'm a bit worried about splitting with the larger panels that would be necessary for this speaker. Ironing might work great for the facets though.

[Wayman]

Yes Horio, for the reasons you stated. I haven't done much veneering so it seemed the easier way to go. What ever type of ply they use tho is horrible. Next time I might try pre-gluing the veneer to some .125 BB.

I 45* the front corners and it seemed to come out ok. A bit stressful to line up for gluing tho.

Thanks Dar! yes waiting for xover parts.

Cheers, Wayne

Cheers, Wayne

[Wayman]

BTW, the reason that the top facets come down so far is because I forgot to allow for the .25 ply.

At only about a 10* chamfer it added a lot of depth.

Cheers, Wayne

[benthe8track]

It looks fantastic Wayne! Are you going to add grills or are you going to leave them naked?

[Wayman]

Thanks Ben!

I'm not planning for grills just yet. Maybe later......

I forgot to add acousta-stuf to my P E order. Would the bonded polyester batting from solen work? At least for now?

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

shouldn't be a problem...

[TEK]

Interesting. So instead of putting down 1/8" hardboard prior to veneering as others have done, you simply glued veneer ply onto the main cabinet faces. Something to think about.

In the past I've had good luck with raw veneer and heat lock glue (iron on method) but my max panel width of 11 inches. I'm a bit worried about splitting with the larger panels that would be necessary for this speaker. Ironing might work great for the facets though.

I'm planning on using cold press on the side and front, and iron-on on the facets, top and rear.
Hope that will work out well...

[Wayman]

Thanks Jon and yes there is a nice sense of accomplishment! Does feel good.

I really like the way that the Minwax finish "ambered" (is that a word?). It nicely complements the black drivers.

Cheers, Wayne

[dar47]

I think you did well with the 1/4 stuff. You doing the bases in Black or veneer?

Usually the veneer they apply to substrates (sheet goods) tends to be more uniform and it's meant to match other sheet goods for surfaces on furniture or mill work. When you go with just veneer you tend to have a lot more chose for variety and the quality is better as they are maximizing high quality logs for thin veneer which increases prophet. It's more work and expense on our part but the veneer is usually of higher quality.

Excited for you, and looking forward to your thoughts on sound! Hey give us some shots of your xovers built and tucked in place when you get there. :W

[Wayman]

Hi Dar. They'll be black.



I stared at the facets for a long time. I was thinking trimming the veneer would be very time consuming so I came up with this for removing the excess.

Cheers, Wayne

[Wayman]

It's boring waiting for parts!

Dar, thanks for the tips on veneer an area I know very little about.

I used sveneers.com peel & stick for the facets. Seemed nice. I hope it's still "stuck" 6 months from now.

Cheers, Wayne