Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Renron]

Spaetzel,
Welcome to the Ardent build thread. I wish I could answer your question about their sound quality, Others will.
My suggestion is to only carry 2 woofers at a time, their very heavy. Lifting 4 into the luggage compartment overhead on a plane could cause the plane to fly with a cant.
Ron

[Spaetzle]

Thanks, yes Solen have a special on at the moment, I'll probably take them in two hits, might even check them in, magnets might make the compass a little screwy... And thanks for advice Jon looking forward to reading about builds using the Wavecor 02's

[TEK]

Build list:

Jon - Done
Dar47 - Done
Benthe8track - Done
Wayman - Done
TEK - Done
BobEllis - Lowcost - In progress)
BobEllis - Full - In progress)
Renron - In progress
Horio - Stocking up parts ???
BigJohn - Finishing build, stocking up parts
Kvardas - collecting parts, about to start


Any more? Let me Know

[Renron]

Hey Doc, (voice cracks with adolescent enthusiasm)
I've searched your build thread where you put the XOs in the base, but did not see the data for the height of said base. 3"?
Marty.

[kvardas]

Build list:

Jon - Done
Dar47 - Done
Benthe8track - Done
Wayman - Done
TEK - Done
BobEllis - Lowcost - In progress)
BobEllis - Full - In progress)
Renron - In progress
Horio - Stocking up parts ???
BigJohn - Finishing build, stocking up parts
More?

Any more? Let me Know[/QUOTE]

Kvardas - acquired the drivers, claritycap mr caps, fiddleback mahogany veneer, resistors, and inductors. Just need to acquire the jantzen caps and the cabinet materials. Will start soon!

[Renron]

Kris,
You built the M8ta and used Makore veneer, is that correct? Those were beautiful! Is the veneer you have now the same species? What was your finishing schedule? Where did you purchase the veneer?
I'm just about ready to purchase some Pomele veneer which is very similar, but I've never used any of those species and was looking for advice / feedback / input on what to expect.
Ron

[TEK]

Is it possible to get the crossover numbers as well as the expected Qts of the speaker?
Don't find it anywhere in this thread, and the other one is pritty long...

[kvardas]

Kris,
You built the M8ta and used Makore veneer, is that correct? Those were beautiful! Is the veneer you have now the same species? What was your finishing schedule? Where did you purchase the veneer?
I'm just about ready to purchase some Pomele veneer which is very similar, but I've never used any of those species and was looking for advice / feedback / input on what to expect.
Ron

Thanks. I used a mottled Malone veneer. The veneer was a unique find on eBay. It was extra thick and about 20 inches wide.

I finished it via a coat of seal a cell followed by five coats of a general finishes arm-a-seal gloss finish. I prefer to work with a gloss finish. I then a apply a paste waste using 0000 steel wool to cut glare a bit.

For the wavecor Ardents going to use a fiddleback mahogany veneer. Hopefully it comes out well.

You can get some nice makore veneer on eBay. Alternatively you can order some wide makore mottled veneer at certainlywood.com. They are a great supplier of veneer.

[JonMarsh]

Is it possible to get the crossover numbers as well as the expected Qts of the speaker?
Don't find it anywhere in this thread, and the other one is pritty long...

What do you mean by crossover numbers? The nominal slopes, and crossover points?

There's a lot of updating I need to do on this thread, but the last two weeks and next one or two I'm moving out of my old place and spare time is non-existant- just posting a few things is just possible. All of that stuff is in the long thread, but key points will be consolidated, and also a PDF document prepared.

[Renron]

I'm moving out of my old place

Out of the frying pan and into the fire???
I hope it as comforting as mine has been for almost 20 years.
Ron

[TEK]

What do you mean by crossover numbers? The nominal slopes, and crossover points?

There's a lot of updating I need to do on this thread, but the last two weeks and next one or two I'm moving out of my old place and spare time is non-existant- just posting a few things is just possible. All of that stuff is in the long thread, but key points will be consolidated, and also a PDF document prepared.

The crossover point (as well as Qts)

[Renron]

Is there a CSD (plot/graph) for the wavecor Ardent?
Ron

[BobEllis]

Since we are asking questions in this thread, are transfer functions available? Getting ready to go active at the low XO, and would like to adjust the tweeter pad to allow the mid/tweeter level to be adjusted in the active xo. I guess I just need relative attenuation between the mid and tweeter. Thanks, Jon.

[JonMarsh]

Yes, I can supply those. No problema... once my move out is finished on the 30th! :W

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. Moving over a holiday. yuk!! Moving is bad enough.

[dar47]

Hope that goes well, you need a break!

I think I got some better measurements of my speaks in there permanent place at 1m, 3.4ms gating, grills off and on with my felt sanded bevel facing out. Left speak grill with felt in is the green, purple no grill.





Right speak no grill Blue. I Like what the felt does in the 4 to 8k range with no penalty up top 16k+ as it's pretty much the same with grill no felt up there.


Image not available


I guess I could tweak the padding for 2db but it's not bad to just take grills off if your wanting a little more tweet.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Jon. Moving over a holiday. yuk!! Moving is bad enough.

With just one person working on this, I've been doing it all month. Place is nearly empty, but now there's cleaning and fixing a few little things to finish up. The biggest deal was moving my garage queen motorcycles- got that done on Monday with a trusty U-Haul ramp trailer.

I'm heading back over there shortly this morning- just enjoying a Starbucks start to my day, and going over some reviews of Audio Precision and Prism audio analyzers and ponding how deep am I really wiling to dig into my piggy bank? (hint: in any case, it will be enough to be a nice small car. Maybe a very nice small car...)

[TEK]

With just one person working on this, I've been doing it all month. Place is nearly empty, but now there's cleaning and fixing a few little things to finish up. The biggest deal was moving my garage queen motorcycles- got that done on Monday with a trusty U-Haul ramp trailer.

I'm heading back over there shortly this morning- just enjoying a Starbucks start to my day, and going over some reviews of Audio Precision and Prism audio analyzers and ponding how deep am I really wiling to dig into my piggy bank? (hint: in any case, it will be enough to be a nice small car. Maybe a very nice small car...)

Hmm, here in Norway you can rent people who does stuff like this.
We (that is the moving company) moved everything in one day when we moved to our new houseopcorn:.
There are some small indications that we might have been better off with you selecting a different approach to this moving stuff :alol:

[Renron]

Whoa, the man really can do it all! Question is, like Tek said, why would you want to?
We all understand moving the fragile and precious (speakers & motorcycles) ourselves, but let others do the heavy lifting Jon. We're not as young as we once were.
The wife unit and I moved 8 times in 12 years, Used movers on all but the first move. We bought the "dog" of the neighborhood, remodeled, sold and moved up.
Please take care of your back, and be careful.
Best wishes in your new place.
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Your comments make a lot of sense, and if it were a normal move I would agree. But this is more like de-contructing and constructing a Chinese puzzle on the fly, what with several storage units being involved, and decisions about what goes into temporary storage, what goes to GF's and where, and how to blend everything together.

I have a true appliance dolly and a couple of really super convertible hand trucks (my son-in-law contractor was impressed when he borrowed them for their move a couple of months ago), so I've had the right tools to do it on my own...

And hey, I've lost 10 lbs in the last month, which isn't a bad deal either. No back issues, I know how to work smart and use good body mechanics.

And I'm almost done- today and possibly some time tomorrow... what a releif that is going to be, like the old joke about how good it feels to stop banging your head against the wall...

Also, I have my buddy Evil Twin to help, and like his namesake, he's a big guy, so it's not like it's Luke or Yoda trying to move Starfighters without the Force. :W :B

It's also helped me re-organize parts and technical collateral, and discover some stuff I'd completely forgotten where it was. :B

[Steve Manning]

What's the saying ....... what was old is now new again Glad to see your about done with the move ...... all you have to do now is not get side tracked with all the rediscovered toys

[Renron]

Evil Twin,
I have been told in secret by one of our Generals, the Emperor is pleased you have toiled "Doc" sufficiently to reduce his displacement. It is indeed fortunate he has not sustained any damages.
One can only hope that some of the rediscovered relics from times past can be used against the Rebel Forces.
We condone your jump into hyper-space and wish you a successful mission of consolidation and expansion.
Your humble servant.

[kvardas]

What do you recommend lining the internal (left, right, rear) of the woofer portion and the midrange range portion of the cabinets?

Thank you

Kris

[JonMarsh]

For my build,

In the midrange enclosure, I went non CE, and used Lead Sheet, followed by 3/4" heavy felt, and stuffed with long fiber wool.

In the woofer enclosure, I don't believe lining would have any significant benefit, and I just stuffed with Acousta Stuff, more and more until the Fb didn't drop any more with using additional stuffing. Dow corning fiberglass might work just as well, but is more irritating to work with.

Sort of like how you cook a turkey, right? :W

[Renron]

The only lead in my turkey is #2 lead shot!

[Wayman]

Hi,

I was visiting a co-worker with some very high-end audio equipment: $5k turntable, preamp with separate power supply, bryston mono-blocks.

I didn't know how to tell him that it really didn't sound very good. I convinced it was his speakers: http://www.focal.com/canada/en/aria-...053691305.html

The longer I have the Ardents the more I realize just how good they are.

Cheers, Wayne

[BobEllis]

I'm eagerly awaiting weather warm enough to finish mine. Glad to hear another positive comment.

[TEK]

After some months with the Ardents I have to confirm to them being great speakers. I'm still very pleased.
My Music/Movie ratio have changed from 20/80 before the Ardents to 80/20 after, and it seems as if it will continue to stay at that level... Instead of going down in the evening and and view a TV-show or a movie, I usually end up just listening to music.
That is the real proof for me!

[wkhanna]

Hi,

I was visiting a co-worker with some very high-end audio equipment: $5k turntable, preamp with separate power supply, bryston mono-blocks.

I didn't know how to tell him that it really didn't sound very good. I convinced it was his speakers: http://www.focal.com/canada/en/aria-...053691305.html

The longer I have the Ardents the more I realize just how good they are.

Cheers, Wayne

odd that such a potentially good system is using $3.5k speakers.
i concur with your conclusion.

[Wayman]

odd that such a potentially good system is using $3.5k speakers.
i concur with your conclusion.

I think I will have to talk him into a nice pair of Ardents!!

Cheers, Wayne

[BobEllis]

There's a bit of confusion in the schematic with part numbers in the first post. The first woofer inductor is specified as 5.6 mH, but the part number corresponds to 3.5 mH. Assuming 5.6 mH is the correct value the part number should be Part # 266-928.

[JonMarsh]

Values are correct; I think Darrel caught that discrepancy earlier but I dropped the ball on correcting it... or I reposted an earlier version in starting this thread. Sorry.

[BobEllis]

Sorry to put another item on your plate, Jon. At least it's something you can do without lifting. Speedy recovery.

[Renron]

Best wishes for and easy go of it tomorrow Jon.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Ron, BTW, been simulating the 12MU build a little more, a tweak to the LF crossover first inductor- not a big one. 5.6mH to 4.7mH; keeping the original 78uF to ground, I'd go as low as 4.3mH; that can be done by unwinding the inductor; can provide details later about how many turns. Wait until I've really checked all this out- will be fairly soon. I'm going to be doing some correlation testing soon- still, where are you on your component buys?



Surgery later today- thanks for everyone's well wishes.

[Renron]

Thanks Jon,
It's apparent how much you LOVE this audio hobby / obsession. Thank you for your continuing work on my project, I thought you were done! The perfectionist in you is appreciated. I've purchased and built all the woofer and Tweeter components. I have about 1/2 of the Midrange parts needed, just waiting on a few $$$ to buy the rest of the Jantzen Superior Zs for the XO. I have an EL Cheapo Inductance meter that is surprisingly accurate, easy enough to unwind and measure mH as needed. Easier than adding mH. LOL. But I've done that too............

Take it easy and don't push yourself much. Enjoy the "Fruits" of your previous labors.

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Things went well yesterday, I feel better today than the day following the procedure in Germany, and no pain killers, either.

I have test parts already on order, so it's my intent to give more feedback on this ASAP, maybe by next weekend. Good that you have an inductance meter of some sort around- that makes things more reliable.

Note that in some subsequent re-evaluation for the base design I've gone as low as 4 mH on that inductor, LF impedance dips a little more (but not below 4 ohms- around 5 ohms). I may play with that some more today, since I'm officially off work also (other than a conference call with my boss...)

One thing that occurred to me, since you're in CA, and in Northern CA, might be an onsite measure and if needed tweak. I want to be sure we get this right... Let me know what you think.

[Renron]

Very happy to hear things went well yesterday, it's not always the case.
I talked the wife unit into seeing a Chiropractor last week because her legs were going numb after standing or sewing for a few hours. He gave her the "Once Over" and the next day I think she hated me, sore everywhere. Several days later she thanked me and is going back for another "Whack" at it next week, some times it takes a while to feel better after you feel worse.
No problem with dips into the 4-5 Ohm region for me, I've got a Honey Badger Amp that is happy to drive 2 Ohm loads. I do understand that others may, may want to use more common amps / receivers to drive these. Take you time, enjoy some (what should be) down time.
Tequila seems to be a good pain med as I recall . If needed.
Thanks Jon.

Different note; I am trying out some UV cure polyester grain filler soon. Should be interesting. I'll post pictures in my "Budget" thread.
Oh, almost forgot. I bought some 50W hollow core ceramic wire wound resistors and will test the inductance today, also in the budget thread.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Got a new smaller lighter amplifier to try out for speaker testing- hope I don't regret spending $200 for a Behringer A500- regardless of what some of the trumped up specs say, it's basically a 100W/ch at 8 ohms, 150/ch at 4 ohms amplifier. Which is fine for speaker testing, especially when just using one channel at a time. Will bench it first, make sure there aren't any issues.

One way or another the inductor part number on the woofer will get updated this weekend...

And I did get some new test inductors and caps- so this will be an experiment this weekend, to get the AP setup running on acoustic tests, do some detail studies, and see if what models in VituixCAD is happening in the real world (I figure if it isn't, it's more likely issues with my models and measurements, but we'll see how that goes.

And the knock down cabs for the test enclosures for the AS190-4-252 arrived yesterday, too, but that belongs in a different thread...

[BobEllis]

Sounds like a busy weekend, Jon. Thanks for doing the update, but don't push yourself too hard.

[flamethrower1]

Jon, I was wondering if help me out.
I have an acquaintance (who is an engineer) whom I mentioned to that I was going to build a set of these to.
Sent him the link for this forum and after he looked at the frequency sweep graph, he is trying to convince me that I need to change the crossover for the Wavecores.
He is all hung up on the fluctuations in the 50Hz region.
I told him to read your explanation about the measurement not being taken in optimal placement and his comment was that it should not matter.
Can you give me some ammo to putt this to rest?

Thanks, Greg

[BobEllis]

Greg, your engineer friend needs to read up on measuring speakers. The long window absolutely affects measured response of low frequencies. I'm guessing non optimal measurement setup means Jon didn't clear the room and there are plenty of early reflections sneaking into the measurement window causing the response irregularities. Usually the low end is measured with close mike placement and that measurement merged with a far field measurement. That may be what he's used to seeing.

The other challenge for your friend would be to propose something to flatten response. Remembering passive crossovers only cut, you'd have to lower everything else to compensate for the dip if it exists. Parts to flatten a peak at 40 Hz would be huge and expensive.

[flamethrower1]

Yeah, I am FULLY confident in what Jon does and would never second guess him.
Just received the mids today, nice looking drivers.
Cant wait to be able to listen to them.

Thanks, Greg

[JonMarsh]

Jon, I was wondering if help me out.
I have an acquaintance (who is an engineer) whom I mentioned to that I was going to build a set of these to.
Sent him the link for this forum and after he looked at the frequency sweep graph, he is trying to convince me that I need to change the crossover for the Wavecores.
He is all hung up on the fluctuations in the 50Hz region.
I told him to read your explanation about the measurement not being taken in optimal placement and his comment was that it should not matter.
Can you give me some ammo to putt this to rest?

Thanks, Greg

What Bob posted after yours hit all the key points. These were setup and measured in the back of the room- the crossover has no effect whatsoever below 200 Hz, but the room acoustics sure do. Normally I setup in the back of the family room where my GF won't bug me about them being in the way of her watching her PBS period piece type shows- she has an erratic watching schedule, not usually using cable, but streaming them from her iPad. But this makes the LF stuff less than idea. Same thing went on with the Minerva, but I got a little bit nicer spot.

Regarding optimum setup, PM me your email and I'll send you the Cardas guide to speaker setup. I can also put up the math for how a woofer interacts with the three nearest boundaries, and how that can gang aft aglay, as the Scotts would say... and why the golden mean ratio spacing works.

As to what the SW223BD0X drivers look like close up without room stuff, here's an on axis example-



And here's off axis with a PR, measured way off to the side, so the breakup mode isn't very prominent, but the PR contribution is more evident:




The nominal crossover points for the Ardent are illustrated in the LspCAD simulation:




(about 650Hz and 3 kHz)

And I can show you other in room measurements taken during development which don't have the dip at 50 Hz because they have a peak!




The surest way to eliminate those kinds of issues are to build the speaker into a wall or the junction of wall and ceiling, and design it for that location- haven't seen that go over very big with the ladies.

Or, add a rear firing woofer and some DSP and convert the radiation pattern from an OMNI at low frequencies to a cardiod. this is also a good argument for more placement flexility to use a wall boundary loaded sub, and crossover around 50-60 Hz.


Last, here's a measurement of the Isiris in the same room after I'd disrupted the couch and speaker positions and set things up as "right" as I could prior to a visit by my friend from Munich (the one with the Savoy's now)




GF won't let me leave the family room setup that way, unfortunately... :W

[JonMarsh]

OK, since your friend is an engineer, here's the math....

(BTW, what loudspeaker company does he work for? I'm assuming with the statements he's making he as actual experience designing and testing loudspeakers, including in a home environment?)

(One more BTW, back around 2007 our former moderator and I did a count up of the number of speaker builds I've done since starting in this activity, of course, that includes times when I was actually working for two different pro audio companies and doing this at times as part of my living- at that time, we counted 55 different system designs I've done. Since then I've done a few more, including the Modula MT XE and the other ones lower on that list, and a few I've never published on the board) This doesn't make me any kind of expert, but it does mean I've been down this road quite a few times, and have some skills in the art...

Anyway, MathCAD is a fine little tool for doing this, though it was a better one in some earlier incarnations that allowed you to make a few tricks in defining functions- this was developed back in the 90's, and I still keep an old early version of MathCAD for Windows just for the freedom it allowed in recursive functions.








Bottom line, for different sets of boundary distance, you can enter a function that describes the low frequency alignment of the speaker (such as a 2nd order sealed box, Q as defined; 0.707 for Butterworth) and combine that response with the net boundary reinforcement. Hey, I didn't invent this math, go read up on the papers by Roy Allison.




For prettier graphing, the data was output to PRN files, and plotted in Excel...

Let's look at some examples from the M8a design paper (long in the tooth, from 2004, but still some nuggets in there).

LF driver plus cabinet transfer function is the magenta curve- then we show the boundary curve (green) and the combined curve (blue)

Two positions- first not at all ideal, with close to the same distances for all three boundary spacing; the second with two dimensions similar (common) and one different:





Next, we show a more ideally spaced boundary location set for both a ported example, and in the same location a critically damped sealed box example, (mind you, this is just modeling boundary reinforcement issues- room dimensional modes are another can of worms)




Last, reversing the blue and green colors, here is a notional analysis for the Isiris, big brother to the Ardent.




Now, if you don't space out those boundary distances just so, you have the reinforcement modes stack up, creating both peaks and dips. That was highlighted in the M8a design article.