Updated Bordeaux crossover now available...

[Jim Holtz]

Just a heads up that between Curt and Efalegalo they have come up with a modification to the original crossover that works better with the new production AST2560's currently shipping. Meniscus has also committed to testing every AST2560 driver ordered to assure the correct crossover parts are included with the parts kit.

This should help existing and future Bordeaux builders hear them as designed.

Enjoy the music!

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Awesome, thank you for posting this. and thank you Efalegalo for the 60ish hours you put into redesigning these.

[Efalegalo]

All,

Just wanted to update that I had a listening get-together with few members of the DCAudiotDiy community to solicit feedback on the speakers this past weekend.

One of the attendees was Tom Perazella - who has been and once again will be a judge at the Midwest Audio Fest organized by Parts Express.

Also in attendance was David Berning of Bering Amplifiers (some of his amplifiers sell for $100K+).

I also had others in attendance that may not DIY themselves, but have owned several high-end systems over the years.

Across the board, everyone really enjoyed the speaker. Tom felt the speakers are truly outstanding. All agreed that the Accuton Mid and The AC Tweeter was a winning combination.

The only negative feedback I received was that they felt the low-low-low bass (saying 20hz - 45hz or so) was a bit muddy. I think this was the direct result of me tuning the enclosure a little higher. In my bass cabinet, I had removed the inner tube between the two flares (contrary to Jim & Curt's recommendation).

Pretty much everyone preferred the speakers with the lower turning as originally designed by Jim, or with the port plugged. They suggested to keep the original tuning (or plug the port), and if I felt like I was missing some bass, that I should instead consider adding a sub.

Thanks again Jim & Curt for an outstanding design.

[Jim Holtz]

All,

Just wanted to update that I had a listening get-together with few members of the DCAudiotDiy community to solicit feedback on the speakers this past weekend.

One of the attendees was Tom Perazella - who has been and once again will be a judge at the Midwest Audio Fest organized by Parts Express.

Also in attendance was David Berning of Bering Amplifiers (some of his amplifiers sell for $100K+).

I also had others in attendance that may not DIY themselves, but have owned several high-end systems over the years.

Across the board, everyone really enjoyed the speaker. Tom truly felt the speakers are outstanding. All agreed that the Accuton Mid and The AC Tweeter was a winning combination.

The only negative feedback I received was that they felt the low-low-low bass (saying 20hz - 45hz or so) was a bit muddy. I think this was the direct result of me tuning the enclosure a little higher. In my bass cabinet, I had removed the inner tube between the two flares (contrary to Jim & Curt's recommendation).

Pretty much everyone preferred the speakers with the lower turning as originally designed by Jim, or with the port plugged. They suggested to keep the original tuning (or plug the port), and if I felt like I was missing some bass, that I should instead consider adding a sub.

Thanks again Jim & Curt for an outstanding design.

Excellent feedback! :T

I'm really pleased they were warmly received by your group and particularly by the industry professionals in the listening audience. Since you had a hand in the crossover rework, you should also give yourself a pat on the back!

Enjoy the music!

Jim

[Efalegalo]

Thanks, Jim. I should have left the original tuning. I think when I was listening in mono and taking measurements, I had placed the speaker away from all boundaries - and thus, to me, the speaker sounded a bit bass shy. But when I was done building both enclosures and placed the speaker within a reasonably (typical) distance from the wall, the tuning I had selected left a bit of an unnatural bloom in the low frequencies. Once we decreased the tuning (or plugged the port) - everyone was far more pleased with the speakers bass performance.

I don't like using adjectives like "lush" and "airy" and etc. etc. to describe sound, and others in attendance agreed to not describe the speakers as such.

The test was a simple 3-4 hour listening session where attendees could listen to tracks they are most familiar with in a near and far-field setting.

If nothing else - everyone unanimously agreed that the speakers were very neutral when measured against their own perception on how certain tracks should sound. This to me was a great compliment.

Some added that the speakers have wonderful clarity, making them somewhat less forgiving on poor recordings.

[sfdoddsy]

I’m not quite sure if this the right thread to revive, but I’m curious about what was actually done (electrically and acoustically) with the revised crossover.

I ask because, whilst normally an active guy, I am currently fiddling with a passive crossover for my open baffles. As part of that I bought a pair of AST2560s to potentially replace my BG Neo3s.

The issue was that the new tweeter rolled off too soon, creating the dip.

Does the new crossover flatten the tweeter response above the crossover (presumably at the cost of sensitivity), boost the response around the crossover, or fiddle with the response of the Accuton?

[Jim Holtz]

I’m not quite sure if this the right thread to revive, but I’m curious about what was actually done (electrically and acoustically) with the revised crossover.

I ask because, whilst normally an active guy, I am currently fiddling with a passive crossover for my open baffles. As part of that I bought a pair of AST2560s to potentially replace my BG Neo3s.

The issue was that the new tweeter rolled off too soon, creating the dip.

Does the new crossover flatten the tweeter response above the crossover (presumably at the cost of sensitivity), boost the response around the crossover, or fiddle with the response of the Accuton?

Hi Steve,

Curt can certainly answer your question. Sorry, I can not.

Jim

[88hht]

I have completed the bordeaux build using the crossover above and I am new to REW. this is my graph, could you advise if i need to tweak the crossover as from 2k seems to slope down or is this by design? The REW was taken at seating position. Speaker is 2.45m apart and 2.9m from seating position and used the basic graph variable smoothing

[technodanvan]

How do they sound in that position? I would generally say that crossover tweaks to a proven design are unnecessary. However, in this case I would double check your polarity on the mid and tweeter to ensure they are hooked up opposite of the woofers - I always seem to screw this up!

Also of note, if I recall correctly that is, is this design was pulled from Curt's website because of inconsistent tweeter manufacturing. Do you know when you acquired yours? I only ask because the highs in your graph seem to be fairly low relative to the mids. If you acquired the parts a long time ago and only recently got around to making them, it's possible you have one of the original tweeters that would use the original crossover.

Edit: You may also just want to measure a single speaker at a time. This would help remove some interactions between the two and get a better feel for what each speaker is capable of. Bonus if you can place the speaker further away from walls when doing so.

[Evil Twin]

While technodanvan has provided some useful "hints" to consider, I would urge you to carefully consider some more fundamental points in your approach to performing "quality assurance" on your Bordeaux build.

First, keep in mind that REW was NOT developed primarily as a high accuracy speaker measurement tool, but more as a speaker setup and room acoustics evaluation tool with the potential for showing areas that may benefit form judicial use of equalization.

I do not recommend using electrical EQ to remedy acoustical problems- whether they be in the design and construction of the loudspeaker under consideration, or the direct result of the acoustic environment and how the loudspeaker system is setup in that environment- because issues arising from comb filtering from multiple strong reflections (close to the primary path length) or ETC issues with the overall acoustics (Energy Time Curve) cannot be substantially addressed by frequency response equalization. I believe in the local slang of this sector, it is equivalent to putting lipstick on a pig.

First, when using REW for speaker measurements, I highly recommend you familiarize yourself with the operating manual for REW in measurements that has been written by Kimmo at VituixCAD. It can be downloaded here....

https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf

Second, as technodanvan notes, it is necessary to measure each speaker separately. You might have a problem induced only in one speaker, or mainly induced by the positioning of one speaker, but it will contaminate the overall results, rendering accurate diagnostics impossible.

Third, as technodanvan notes, if you seek to measure the speaker initially, and not your room + the speaker, it is very desirable (lets just say, necessary) to move the speaker well out from the walls (unless it's specifically designed for a near boundary positioning) and measure at a distance that is sufficient for in phase combination of the separate drivers, realization of intrinsic baffle step response, and at what is the normal seated listening position. This distance should likely be approximately 1 meter. Measuring close to the speaker allows one to assess what the speaker itself is doing, before considering the impact of the listening room. This is a basic reason why Jonmarsh is so fond of his QNF (Quasi Near Field) measurements, as the near by output from the speaker is sufficiently high in level to dominate for the most part over the room reflections received later.

Then, when it comes to setup, consider the Cardas recommended placement as a starting point, and if you have some time to spend, use the Wilson Audio reciprocal technique working from your planned primary seating position to assess possible speaker locations with the most neutral response to the ear and to the microphone. (Place one of your speakers, once you are certain it is performing per original design specification) in the listening position, then measure and listen at positions you are considering for placement, and pick the two locations producing the most faithful results.

https://www.cardas.com/system-setup


Cardas_roomsetup.pdf

[88hht]

I acquired the AST2560 back in 2020. I am using Pass Labs preamplifier and amplifier with Hifi Rose Dac so there is no ability to adjust EQ / Bass / Treble, it is just straight music in and out to speakers.

Just a quick test, i removed the 8.2 resistor in series with the Tweeter and replaced with a 1ohm the result is the red line, i can hear more treble now but there is still a dip from 10k onwards. I will need to acquire some components to test the original crossover design.

[JonMarsh]

I have a set of AST2560's acquired also in 2020. they do not meet the published specifications. You'll need to customize the crossover.

[88hht]

This is with original crossover design, there is the dip at 2k. I guess i have the updated AST2560 version

[JonMarsh]

that's such a significant dip I would suggest reversing the phase on the tweeter and checking again. It looks more like a phase null than the published issues about later AST2560's. Just to be on the safe side for information gathering.

[Jim Holtz]

Curt is the technical expert of our collaboration, I am not. However, here are some thoughts.

What you're seeing is why we pulled the design from distribution. Aurum Cantus made design changes in the drivers and "forgot" to tell anyone. Meniscus was measuring every driver they sold but were having difficulty with consistency of the 2560's.

I'd suggest you use the updated crossover ( https://www.htguide.com/forum/missio...-now-available ) and then remeasure the speakers individually with the suggested positioning since they are an open back mid design. Yes, positioning is important to get the best sound out of them. The Bordeaux are my reference and sound excellent when setup correctly, IMHO.

HTH...

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

I am using Pass Labs preamplifier and amplifier with Hifi Rose Dac

What Pass amp and pre are you using? I have a XA30.8 which I beefed up quite a lot and my own revision of the XP32 which is similar to the original. For a DAC I am using a Yamoto YDA-B1 that I built recently. The Bordeaux seems to really like Pass gear! There are not a whole lot of people building this design any longer. Would you be willing to share a pic?

If you look at the updated crossover, the tweeter and the mid are wired in reverse polarity. If the tweeter has not seen any updates since the new crossover had to me designed, then I assume all of the old tweeters have been flushed out by now.

[88hht]

I have Pass Labs X250.8 amp and XP22 preamp.
I settled on the crossover above but replaced the 8.2ohm resistor in the tweeter to a 1ohm. I do prefer the original crossover mid sound, the sound was dead centre. This updated crossover not so quite as centre sounding but with my limited knowledge its the best option now. This is the updated sweep with the 1ohm. the bass is boosted because of subs. I tried other resistors eg 7.5, 5.5, 4, etc but i think there must be a phase shift happening so the sound seems skewed to one side and not centre.

I enjoyed the Statement / finalist series and DIY, Bordeaux took me longer to gather the parts due to cost and being in Australia shipping can be a challenge with import tax etc over certain threshold. I have been eyeing on the Sasandu Textreme kit but also hoping Jim and Curt come up with another high-end design soon.

My build isnt as great as some other forum members here, some pic below.

[Mikerodrig27]

Looks like a nice build to me! I agree that it would be cool if Jim and Curt came out with another top tier design. It seems that Curt has turned Speaker Design Works into more of a business proposition. So maybe filling in the spot where the Bordeaux one stood may have a bit more merit than before? However, I suspect that these projects need to also be within reach of the common builder.

Since you are in Australia, there is a designer named Joe Rasmussen who designed the Elsinore Speaker. He has a variety of different versions from a mid tier level using SB acoustics MFC woofers up to the highest version using Purifi woofers. It is a completely different design principle but he is in Sydney and I believe he welcomes people to come and take a listen. I have the parts to build the NRX version myself.

Is the tunnel the correct depth? Also, the plans for the mid call for a PVC tube. Were you able to get an okay on using a wood framed tunnel?

I am no where near being a speaker designer or having that great of an understanding of them. However, check to make sure the parameters of the tube you used meet the design requirements that curt likes to see:

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...94#post1431394

Curt expands on the tunnel design a bit further in the thread.

Also, I see that the speaker appears to be facing straight towards your listening position. The Bordeaux is intended to be listened to 15 degrees off axis. This is the way it is voiced to but also it has to do with the reflection of the baffle if I remember correctly. At 15 degrees off axis, from your seating position, one edge of the baffle will be closer to your ear and the other edge will be further. If facing directly towards you, both edges are the same distance.

I don't know if that metal piece between the tweeter and the mid is causing a problem but I remember it being mentioned that even a 1/8" gap around the tweeter can cause issues. So I would think a item protruding from the baffle where the mid and the tweeter are supposed to work with one another could present an issue.

That Pass gear is really cool! I was at a friends house who had the XP12 and the XP17. Both were pretty neat. Another friend has the SIT3 and an old Aleph with some big horn speakers. That open baffle speaker you have is pretty cool as well! It will be interesting going from what looks like a open baffle full range type speaker to a AST tweeter with a mid driver and a big ported woofer cabinet

[88hht]

Thanks for the placement tip will try the 15degree. The tunnel is similar to the statement design lined with 1inch Sonic Barrier, the depth is as per the pvc tunnel design.
The metal things are Synergistic HFT which I'm trying out. When measuring with REW it makes no difference, but when listening it does sharpen up the upper range.

The open baffle speaker are the Lii Audio 10in full range and 15in bass with liionidas crossover, i think he was one of the designer for the pap trio 15. It has a lot more bass than the bordeaux and vocals are warmer probably due to larger driver but being open back is more challenging to integrate with subs, hence im interested in the Sasandu kit as it uses 7in for mids. With the Bordeaux I have a dip at 300hz, it maybe room mode cancellation so its lacking abit of warmth. Bordeaux has a more modern sound with sharper mid and tweeter. Both are very good speakers for their genre. As Jim has stated the Bordeaux are his reference speakers. I have built the mini statement , statement 2 and finalist, the Bordeaux is the better sounding speaker from the series to me.

[Mikerodrig27]

Thank you for the listening notes on the Bordeaux BS your Lii Audio build. If you haven't had the Bordeaux for long, the bass is supposed to come alive a bit more as time goes on. That is pretty sweet that the open baffle speakers have that much in the way of guts!

The Bordeaux need a lot of attention in regards to their placement. I see the blue tape so maybe you have already spent a lot of time moving them around. But don't hesitate to try again. Looking at their distance from the wall, they need to probably be a bit closer. With the stock cabinet dimensions, I believe the bottom cabinet is supposed to be a maximum of 24" from the wall. They were voiced with this in mind. They were also designed to be perpendicular to the wall but I have found that in order to have them in lose to a equilateral triangle layout between my hear position and the two speakers, you cannot have them at 15 degrees.

You are going to laugh but move that open baffle so it is not to the left of the speakers and see if that helps as well.

The Satori speakers look great! I could see those being very fun.

From the SDW lineup, have only heard the Bordeaux. I would love to hear some of the others but I am sure they are few and far between. At one point, I was curious about the Travelers.

[technodanvan]

Those look really quite nice!

[88hht]

I have been testing the 0.833 speaker placement rule which brings the speaker out to 37in from the back of the speaker and seating 115in away from the front baffle. Have just tried the 18 - 24in away from the wall and still keeping to the 0.833 rule, the sound feels as though it comes from the back wall, one advantage is the bass is more defined and integrate better with the subs. From the design specification 24in does sound much better than 18in. As I move the speakers away further from the back wall which I have at 29-37in to suit my room, the sound is more 3D holographic and more depth. I think every room will be different, mine is not ideal at 14.75ft wide by 16.55ft long almost square room. for 1 person listening the 29-37in gave more involving music, I would push back the speaker closer to the wall if i have several people listening to have the wider back wall sound.

[Mikerodrig27]

Very nice! Well, 37" seems to be the ticket then. Reading your message, I am trying 32" tonight just to have some fun. I was at 24" before. Yes, the bass is a bit less full and the mids and the treble are a bit more articulate in how they interact with the room. The whole tonality changed....

I am running out of thoughts to try to help your issues.. Hopefully the guys above can give you some more guidance but it looks like you may have a few more of their suggestions to try?

I will be building that Elsinore that I mentioned above. I have the old NRX drivers, the tweeters as all as all the other hardware. I just need to get to cutting some wood. I am hoping they will outdo these Bordeaux speakers but we will see.

[simoon]

I have Pass Labs X250.8 amp and XP22 preamp.
I settled on the crossover above but replaced the 8.2ohm resistor in the tweeter to a 1ohm. I do prefer the original crossover mid sound, the sound was dead centre. This updated crossover not so quite as centre sounding but with my limited knowledge its the best option now. This is the updated sweep with the 1ohm. the bass is boosted because of subs. I tried other resistors eg 7.5, 5.5, 4, etc but i think there must be a phase shift happening so the sound seems skewed to one side and not centre.

I enjoyed the Statement / finalist series and DIY, Bordeaux took me longer to gather the parts due to cost and being in Australia shipping can be a challenge with import tax etc over certain threshold. I have been eyeing on the Sasandu Textreme kit but also hoping Jim and Curt come up with another high-end design soon.

My build isnt as great as some other forum members here, some pic below.

I have just completed my Bordeaux builds with the updated tweeter/crossover.

I see the tunnels are pretty well stuffed in the above build, but I have been unable to find where Curt and Jim call for the tunnels to be stuffed in any of their designs that use a tunnel.

Is this something you hit upon via trial and error, or are there other sources you referred to?

[Mikerodrig27]

I have that information. When I get home from work I will share it with you. Shoot me a private message.