Horio's Wavecor Ardent Build

[JonMarsh]

As usual, great work, Steve! :T

[meb46]

Awesome work Steve... Keep the photos coming!

[dar47]

Very nice Steve! :T:T

Now you have that great jig you might get a few more calls from others looking for baffles. I considered doing just what you did but we were making 8 cabs in a rented space that had just a little Jet table saw. In -35 C. weather conditions that winter my table saw back home in my unheated garage, so that was out of the question. Bet cleaning your cut was a lot faster too.

I bet a your going to get some requests for build plans of that gig too! Probably should just post it now in the main thread.

[scottvalentin]

Great jig for those facets!! Looking awesome!

[BobEllis]

Nice work, Steve.

I probably should have made it more obvious that I didn’t use plywood. My baffles are 4 layers of strip laminated “boards” so took to planing pretty well. I could see how the cross grain parts of ply would require a super shallow cut to plane smoothly. Your saw looks a lot more stable than my cheapo. My baffles weigh nearly as much as my saw.

[Steve Manning]

Nice work, Steve.

I probably should have made it more obvious that I didn’t use plywood. My baffles are 4 layers of strip laminated “boards” so took to planing pretty well. I could see how the cross grain parts of ply would require a super shallow cut to plane smoothly. Your saw looks a lot more stable than my cheapo. My baffles weigh nearly as much as my saw.

Thanks Bob, but now you tell me, :W no wonder your method works so well, Actually Bob, the power planer does a pretty good job on the lbl, it was more of the hand planes with the final cleanup that I had an issue, which is not the time for that to happen. Now planning the ends of the baffles I had no problem it left a very smooth finish.

As for the saw, it's heavily modified ..... I'm dreaming of a nice cabinet saw one of these days.

[Steve Manning]

Very nice Steve! :T:T

Now you have that great jig you might get a few more calls from others looking for baffles. I considered doing just what you did but we were making 8 cabs in a rented space that had just a little Jet table saw. In -35 C. weather conditions that winter my table saw back home in my unheated garage, so that was out of the question. Bet cleaning your cut was a lot faster too.

I bet a your going to get some requests for build plans of that gig too! Probably should just post it now in the main thread.

Thanks Darrell ..... I can understand the garage thing, though we certainly don't get that cold around here.

Actually I do have another set of the baffles coming up .... looking at making some changes to the garage to do this on a more full time basis, details hopefully to follow.

[Horio]

Great work Steve and I love the jig. Looks like some of the scrap LBL made its way into the jig.

[Supernova]

@Horio

Apologies for posting this in your thread, but it appears to be one of the more active one's.

I can't seem to find the Accuton C90-9-079? Has it been replaced, discontinued or is it OEM?

In case anyone's interested I found the Wavecore 223BD02's for $163.32 on Solen right now.

https://solen.ca/products/speakers/home-speakers/subwoofers/sw223bd02/

Cheers

Peter

[BobEllis]

That was a typo, Peter. C90-6-079 is the correct driver. I went through the same thing.

[Horio]

Good catch on the typo, and I just fixed it on my first post of this thread. I bought the Accuton midrange drivers from Madisound.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-midrange/accuton-c90-6-079-5-ceramic-dome-midrange/

[Supernova]

@BobEllis

Thanks! Thought I read in another thread a while back that one of the model numbers was incorrect.

[Renron]

Late to your Party Horio, Apologizes.
Steve (troublemaker) nice try with the hand planes pictured, wanting us to think you did all the bevels by hand. (jk) Bob's method is much safer and faster than by hand.
Although there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Are you sure you want to paint over Steve's hard work? Bamboo looks soooo good with a stain and gloss finish.
Horio, your going to LOVE these speakers!

Someone asked about a McIntosh Amp having enough power for these speakers. Yes, no problem. Bob and I have driven them with a Pass F5, although I think Bob's is a turbo. Mine's about 50ish Watts.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Late to your Party Horio, Apologizes.
Steve (troublemaker) nice try with the hand planes pictured, wanting us to think you did all the bevels by hand. (jk) Bob's method is much safer and faster than by hand.
Although there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Are you sure you want to paint over Steve's hard work? Bamboo looks soooo good with a stain and gloss finish.
Horio, your going to LOVE these speakers!

Someone asked about a McIntosh Amp having enough power for these speakers. Yes, no problem. Bob and I have driven them with a Pass F5, although I think Bob's is a turbo. Mine's about 50ish Watts.
Ron

Trouble maker ..... what's that saying about a black pot? Anyway, if it had been actually hardwood I might have given it a try. :W So is that one of those first generation portable table saws? That thing is a beast!

[JonMarsh]

Trouble maker ..... what's that saying about a black pot? Anyway, if it had been actually hardwood I might have given it a try. :W So is that one of those first generation portable table saws? That thing is a beast!

Can't say I've ever seen anything quite like that saw! But then I don't get out all that much...

Fun to see how this is coming along. I'm in the middle of another semi-hell week, we had our first 20 cubic yard dumpster picked up yesterday, and a new empty one dropped off. This one is not just for stuff from the house, but me doing the equivalent of what the Swedish call "death cleaning" - making hard decisions about stuff I should get rid of from the storage units- plan is to pare them down quite a bit.

Also working on the "working setup" at the new place, including spending some cash for a new Sit-Stand desk for the home work office.

So much stuff going down...

In the category of a little magic comes your way now and then, went to Monterey Bay last Sunday, and had a gorgeous June day in the middle of March. Now, to fully understand the significance of that, you must realize that the normal June day at Monterey Bay often looks like a day in March- cloudy, overcast, etc.

Needed a day off and got a great one.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

[Horio]

Wow, what a nice March day in Monterrey Bay. When my wife and I used to live in San Francisco, we always enjoyed taking trips down to Monterrey/Carmel for the weekend. We had some unusually nice weather up here in Seattle last weekend to. We managed to hit 70 degrees.

Steve's baffles arrived safely, and I'm looking forward to building the rest of the cabinets. Work its a bit crazy right now, so probably no sawdust until May. I have employed my father to help build a couple of jigs that should help once production starts.

[Renron]

Awesome that you are getting your father involved. This experience with you will mean a lot to him (speaking as a Father). Please keep the photos coming as it updates.
Sawdust is good for the keyboard.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Awesome that you are getting your father involved. This experience with you will mean a lot to him (speaking as a Father). Please keep the photos coming as it updates.
Sawdust is good for the keyboard.
Ron

I thought sawdust was good for the heart, Ron... especially when shared!

[Renron]

Straight from your keyboard to our collective hearts Doc. Thank you for all you have given us sawdust warriors.

[Horio]

Work has completely bogged me down for the past few months, so there has been no real progress on the Ardents. Big deadline is next week, so hoping to get back to things this summer and make some real progress on the cabinets.

Parts Connexion is running a 25% off sale this month on film capacitors. Was able to pick up all of the Obbligatos at a good price. Also got an email that Hifi-Collective and they are running a special too this weekend. I'll probably put in an order for the Cross Caps (much cheaper vs Parts Express) and a few of the air core inductors with them as well. That will put me a few resistors and iron core inductors short of the full crossover kit.

Hope you all are having a great holiday weekend!

[Horio]

Epoxy question for you all. I've read some good things about West Systems, and done a bit of reading about their product line. I'm thinking of using their 105 resin along with either the 205 (fast hardener) or 206 (slow hardener) and 403 microfibers when I need to thicken things up. I'm planning to do the MDF/BB plywood lamination with some Titebond III, and using the epoxy for gluing the main components and sealing the cabinet.

For those of you familiar with the West Systems epoxy, which hardener would you recommend? I'm leaning a bit toward the 206 (slow hardener) for a little extra pot life, but maybe the 205 is just fine. The glue-up will likely happen during the warmer months, but cabinet sealing might happen in the fall when its cooler. Any recommendations for applying or working with the epoxy? Thinking of simple sticks for the glue-up since it will be a thick mixture (microfibers added) for that application, and a foam roller for sealing (thin mix with no fillers used).

Any advice is appreciated before I go and drop $100+ on epoxy.

[xandresen]

My epoxy thoughts

Epoxy glues have no tack. Think of putting a layer of motor oil between two surfaces. The glue likes to squeeze out and run everywhere until well into hardening. Wood glues like the Titebond family are much easier to control and clean up.

West 105 is a "low viscosity" resin so it runs between water and oil. My boat builder friend paints it on with a disposable bristle paint brush or roller (he is bonding thin fiberglass cloth to plywood).

He has good luck making soft putties with filler. With my limited experience I find mixing putty to a consistent "thickness" to be a slow process (and the mixed epoxy is setting as I stir in filler...).

smaller amounts of clay-like epoxy putty, for spot bonding/reinforcement inside cabinet:
I buy a roll of hand mixable epoxy putty at hardware or box store. Sets in 10 minutes! strong.

The 105 is designed to soak into wood and will seal it. As for sanding the resulting epoxy-strong surface smooth for a cabinet grade finish, someone who has tried it will have to comment.

The bigger the pot of mixed epoxy, the faster it self-heats = the faster the pot sets! You can place the mixed pot in a tub of ice water to slow curing.

[Juhazi]

Some drivers don't like epoxy humes, which might evaporate for many years. So, "sealing" the cab's inside is not generally recommended for hifi speakers. Actually, it is wise to leave some pinhole size leaks to let the closed cabinet's inside pressure accommodate to atmosperic pressure changes.

[BobEllis]

To me epoxy is overkill for assembly work. Standard woodworking glues are strong enough and easier to work with. Microfiber thickened resin gets very hard and you’ll have a tough time leveling squeeze out on exterior surfaces. You’ll need a large, hard sanding block and even then you’ll probably get waviness around glue lines. Tough to paint or veneer over.

I used epoxy to seal the cabinets and apply my veneer. It will bleed through raw veneer in spots, so you’ll need to seal it with epoxy too. No rubbed oil type finishes if you use epoxy on raw veneer. The standard hardeners will give a slight amber tint. There is a WEST hardener that sets up clear if that’s what you want.

[Steve Manning]

+1 on what Bob said about the regular wood glues. Titebond III should work great for glue up. If you need a little more working time you can use Titebond Extended, I think it has ~twice the open time.

[Horio]

Thanks for the input guys. The thought behind using epoxy for the glue up was for additional working time and to help fill gaps (primarily with the internal bracing and dados). The Titebond Extend might be a good option, and I'll look into it.

Just as a reminder, I'm planning to do a satin/matte painted finish and still trying to sort out the best approach (I'm very much a novice in the finishing world). My current thought is:

1. Glue-up main cabinet
2. Apply 1/8" HDF/MDF along sides, top and rear.
3. Seal with West Systems epoxy
4. Primer
5. Paint
6. Clear coat

Steps 4 through 6 would be done with a HVLP sprayer. Haven't decided on a color yet, but it probably won't be black. My guess is it will either be white or something a little more colorful to make my wife happy. I looked at the Target Coatings waterborne stuff per Steve/Jon's suggestion, but it looks like they only have a black and white option.

I'd love to hear any recommendations on products or suggestions on the sequence above.

[BobEllis]

Epoxy will work well as a sealer. Check out Total Boat epoxy - much less expensive than WEST, works well. I used it on my Ardent build.

Beware the amine blush with any epoxy. It forms on the surface of epoxy and will clog your sandpaper unless removed. It washes off with soap and warm water with a scrubby pad. then rinse thoroughly.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks for the input guys. The thought behind using epoxy for the glue up was for additional working time and to help fill gaps (primarily with the internal bracing and dados). The Titebond Extend might be a good option, and I'll look into it.

Just as a reminder, I'm planning to do a satin/matte painted finish and still trying to sort out the best approach (I'm very much a novice in the finishing world). My current thought is:

1. Glue-up main cabinet
2. Apply 1/8" HDF/MDF along sides, top and rear.
3. Seal with West Systems epoxy
4. Primer
5. Paint
6. Clear coat

Steps 4 through 6 would be done with a HVLP sprayer. Haven't decided on a color yet, but it probably won't be black. My guess is it will either be white or something a little more colorful to make my wife happy. I looked at the Target Coatings waterborne stuff per Steve/Jon's suggestion, but it looks like they only have a black and white option.

I'd love to hear any recommendations on products or suggestions on the sequence above.

For priming I have used this, https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...rfacer-filler/, it comes in three different colors.

As for paint, I used this on the Minerva project, https://woodfinishersdepot.com/wood-...in-gallon.html, and you can get it tinted just about any color you want. Both are water bourne and easy to use.

[Horio]

Epoxy will work well as a sealer. Check out Total Boat epoxy - much less expensive than WEST, works well. I used it on my Ardent build.

Beware the amine blush with any epoxy. It forms on the surface of epoxy and will clog your sandpaper unless removed. It washes off with soap and warm water with a scrubby pad. then rinse thoroughly.

I looked into the Total Boat epoxy and it seems to be very comparable to the West Systems at a much lower price (the quart kit is nearly half the price). Thanks for the tip Bob, and I'll probably give Total Boat a shot.

I did stumble across your posts about amine blush, and will make sure to give it a good cleaning with soap/water/scotch brite pad before applying any other coats. Did you do a single or multiple coats of epoxy to seal the cabinet before applying your veneer?

[BobEllis]

It took two coats to get enough epoxy on the surface to level. If you recoat soon enough you can avoid the blush and need to sand between coats. The Gougeon Brothers' book has something on it, I think you have a few hours after the first surface gets hard.

Take a look at Steve's recommendation, though. I went epoxy largely because of my experience with it boat building. His recommended filler seem much easier to use.

[Horio]

For priming I have used this, https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...rfacer-filler/, it comes in three different colors.

As for paint, I used this on the Minerva project, https://woodfinishersdepot.com/wood-...in-gallon.html, and you can get it tinted just about any color you want. Both are water bourne and easy to use.

Steve, I did a bit more reading into the Emtech primer/filler and lacquer and they seem to be good products that spray well. It seems like you only need to wait about 1-2 hours in between coats, so you could build up the finish rather quickly.

With the primer, I'm guessing you skipped the epoxy sealer step all together and sprayed the primer/filler directly onto the wood? All of my finish would be over MDF or LBL. How many coats of primer did you end up laying down before paint? For some extra durability, it seems like people think highly of their Superclear 9000 Poly from some other stuff I've read.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/product/emtech-superclear-9000-wb-interior-polyurethane/

[Steve Manning]

Steve, I did a bit more reading into the Emtech primer/filler and lacquer and they seem to be good products that spray well. It seems like you only need to wait about 1-2 hours in between coats, so you could build up the finish rather quickly.

With the primer, I'm guessing you skipped the epoxy sealer step all together and sprayed the primer/filler directly onto the wood? All of my finish would be over MDF or LBL. How many coats of primer did you end up laying down before paint? For some extra durability, it seems like people think highly of their Superclear 9000 Poly from some other stuff I've read.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...-polyurethane/

I think I used a couple of coats. Since it does dry pretty quickly you'll get a feel for how it's setting up in short order. You'll see how the surface imperfections fill in as you go. I gave the company a call and they recommended a 5% dilution with water for spraying and that worked nicely. I'd certainly give them a call with any questions, they were very helpful.

I think you could skip the epoxy coating if your going this route. Since this stuff is for sealing up mdf it should work nicely going over Baltic birch or hardboard.

[Renron]

Target coatings are quality products, I've been spraying them since they were called Enduro. Not too many coats of primer, Light sand the flats and hit it again. Three medium coats is good. Too many and it'll spald later. Looks like spiderwebs in the paint.
If your semi novice to HVLP guns a finish that "burns in" to previous coats may help you look like a pro. Each finish likes a different pressure / pattern / volume. Practice on scrap first. Water base is easy to clean in the gun, and you can keep the extra in a jar for a couple of days if needed. Less waste.
Your going to LOVE your speaker.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

++ What Ron said....

One pointer regarding water based finishes, as from Target coatings, absolutely surgical cleanliness is a must! Take it from ET, who had his share of problems trying to go water based with the early Dai Katana finishing attempts.

[cochinada]

Nice to see you active again Jon. With no disregard to anyone at all, I was commenting these days with a friend that this forum is not the same without you.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks- appreciated. As you might imagine, the last 9 months or so have been rather exceptional with a lot of upheaval and coping. At least the new manager is making progress and is much easier to work with, but there is a lot of repair to do there, and things are still being wrapped up with my original living situation and getting setup in a new one... something started in January just finished in June or July. Such as checking out a display for the occasional movie in the living room, or having the final memorial service for Beverly- which went well, a pretty good turnout. Her house is almost ready to put up for listing now- there's been a lot of work to do there.

And I've just started actively moving a lot of my external storage from CA to Idaho- will be doing that every other weekend for a while this summer, starting last weekend!





The thing we really need a break through on at work is filling the open positions on our team... still working on that. It's taking more of my time than I like but it's critical. As it is, I'm mainly doing "work" work today, on Saturday. Wrapping up a test report and evaluation of a CLASS D IC Eval board from a Danish company we bought this year... I know, it's a dirty job, but someone has got to do it!

[Renron]

Danville Don't have trees like that!
Ironically, we too (the wife unit and I) are just settling into our new place too. The house we sold never looked as good when we were living there. It's ironic that we only fix it up when it's time to sell it. DUH.
Just didn't seem right not having everything proper for the new owners. I wish the house we bought had the same owner mentality. She was literately CRAZY. OMG, the stuff she did!
As an example, she (crazy lady) installed bathroom vanity lights, using masking tape in lieu of wirenuts..............shocking. Glad our tastes differed and I replaced them.
John, busy as ever. You need a 25 hour clock.
Ron

Note about finishes. A diluted coat of De-Waxed shellac prior to a primer coat can shortcut future problems. Light coats only and only 2 coats of shellac. Spalling issues with more than 2 coats can happen.

We watched a special "Cream" concert recorded in 2005 last night, ran the audio thru the speakers as "Stereo" and it sounded fantastic. I'm so happy with these speakers. Thank you John.

[JonMarsh]

You're most welcome, Ron! It always brings a smile to hear how people enjoy these, or that someone else is building another pair.

That picture is just a rest stop on the way to Boise. Not living there yet, but have a second climate controlled unit in the same hall as my first, will start filling that one later this summer- still have a way to go with the first. Storage is about 1/3 the price there, and there isn't any Hayward Fault to worry about.

Where have you and Rene taken off to now? Still in CA, or are you in hiding until the rest of the world settles down or blows up and goes away?

I've decided I'll likely work another couple of years, got a new manager earlier this year, whom I actually like and respect, and HE lives in Danville with his family, so he must be an OK guy, right? . That and I'm making too much money at the moment to not make hay while the sun shines...

There's a possibility shaping up with a Russian gal who's interested in leaving the Bay Area and co-investing in a new home, so we'll have to see how that goes and if it works out the way it might...

I'm pushing hard to get back into some audio stuff, but geez, with so little spare time, it takes forever to get anything done- it was only two weeks ago I finally got around to hooking up the Epson 4K projector I bought in January (looks great) but still haven't finished assembling the screen (will go to Idaho on the next trip, along with the projector- don't really have time for watching movies). But I got one of those online 1 day deals on a Vizio 50" 4K display with array dimming for enhanced contrast at 20% off what Amazon typically charges, so that will have to do when and if I find spare time for that sort of thing here. It's more practical where I'm living now, or may live during the next couple of years here.

Now, your place looked pretty good when I saw it, so it must have really shined when you sold it. But seriously, masking tape?!?? that's scary... well, just think of all the pride of ownership you can generate putting things right...

[Horio]

Jon,

It's great to see you browsing around the forums! Like others have said, these boards just aren't the same when you and ET aren't around.

Welcome to the Pacific Northwest!

[Horio]

Good news, work has finally slowed down to a reasonable level. I've been swamped with a couple of big buildings in Honolulu, but drawings are in for permitting. Now we are in that part of the project where the design is done and construction has yet to start.

I should be making some sawdust here in the next couple of weeks, as I get going on the rest of the cabinets (Steve completed the baffles earlier this year).

[Browncoat]

Jon,

It's great to see you browsing around the forums! Like others have said, these boards just aren't the same when you and ET aren't around.

Welcome to the Pacific Northwest!

Welcome to Boise from a neighbor in Eagle. It's a little hot and smoky at the moment, but otherwise a great place to live.

[Horio]

Finally made some sawdust the past couple of days and made some great progress on the speaker backs. Very happy with how things are turning out so far. I built all of the panels to match the final dimensions of the front baffles that Steve built over the winter. Here are few progress photos.

Have to love the Festool TS55. The parallel guides really made quick work out of the repetitive cuts once I got the widths dialed in.



Cutting the 10 degree bevels on the side panels using the MFT table.



I decided to cut the cleats out of one single piece of BB plywood and cut the center hole using my woodpeckers router template.



Cutting some domino's for alignment of the sides, rear, top and bottom pieces.



Cutting the inside MDF pieces to match the as-built side and rear panels.



Putting my new drill press to work drilling some dowels for BB plywood/MDF glue up alignment



Gluing up the (4) side panels.



Dry fit between the new back assemblies and the beautiful baffles courtesy of Steve M.

[ergo]

Great to see a good progress especially as I've just done the same less than month ago and everything is fresh in mind still.
I have some good tools, but I must say I envy some of your's. Parallel guides for repetitive cuts would indeed be very good for this job as well as the great Festool domino machine. Sure helps with aligning all the corners better.

Whats your plan for finishing? A layer of veneer as well or?

[Steve Manning]

Looking good ..... I'm with Ergo, I'm drooling over your Festool collection.

[Renron]

Looking good ..... I'm with Ergo, I'm drooling over your Festool collection.

That can't be good for the tools.....

Looking great Horio. The build pictures brings a smile to my face. I enjoyed the build process immensely. Your doing a great job.
Ron