Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

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  • BobEllis
    Super Senior Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 1609

    Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

    To keep from cluttering up the Wavecor Ardent thread more than I already have, I am starting a new thread. This project has been evolving in my mind for quite a while, torn between my modest means and desire for something like the Wavecor Ardents. It will take a while, but hopefully I will have 4 Ardent inspired speakers before next summer.

    Some history of my descent into full blown GAS: I have a set of Zaph designed W15CY001/T25CF001 MTs that I really like, but output is limited to moderate volumes. A while back I temporarily added an old set of 7" MTM woofers as bass bins and saw the three way light. I bought a set of 4 RS225-8S (yes, they have been sitting on my shelf since the shielded ones were available.) I was very limited in woodworking space and physical ability, so the original idea was to replace the front panel of an old MTM and use them as bass bins with MT cabinets on top.

    Then came the Wavecor Ardent thread. Re-inspired by their styling, I thought I could do something like that with more affordable drivers that I have on hand. Then ET started the Update to Natalie P and Modular Bass Bin threads. Sure, these cabinets are going to be a lot of work, so why not go for drivers that are a little more state of the art? I bought a pair of N26CX-T, thinking I'd use them with either a ZA14 or ES140ti mid and UM10 woofers. Then Jon pointed out the Woodworker's Source sale on LBL boards. OK, now that I'm in for a larger investment in the cabinets, let's start looking at better mids. Still undecided, but leaning strongly towards the Scan 15W/8530K-01 or Satori.

    The good news is my girlfriend "oohed" at Dar47's Wavecor Ardents and encouraged me to duplicate the look. She likes the walnut burl, too but now leans towards lighter woods. She also appreciates good sound - unusual for a woman in my history. The bad news is I did a small woodworking project last weekend and boy am I rusty. I need to practice a bit before I waste my investment in LBL. So, now this is going to be two builds, both will be hybrid active woofer to mid XO and passive mid to tweeter. First, will be an MDF cabinet with a single layer of LBL on the baffle using drivers mostly on hand - RS225, ZA14 and probably 27TDFC or 27TBFCG. (I'll only have to buy the ZA14s) It will be my first attempt at raw veneer, which should be fun. After I'm satisfied that I can make cabinets worthy of LBL, I'll go with the UM10s, N26CX-T and TBD mid.

    Jon Marsh has offered support in developing the required transfer functions, which I think will make this project more interesting to others. Not wanting to abuse Jon's generosity, the "practice" build is more suited to using a crossover similar to the Wavecor Ardents and more appropriate for his help. I plan to be on my own for the second build. My woodworking space is at my family summer camp 90 minutes away. The water is off for the winter, and there's no heat but I hope to get panels cut before it gets too cold. I can bring them home for glue up. Putting this out in public will help keep me moving forward.

    Status:

    LBL and Baltic Birch ply on order.

    First build woofers and tweeters on hand. Mids on order.
    Second build tweeters on hand

    Analog active crossover boards ready to assemble, case and power supplies ready. I will use an M-Audio FW-410 for development.
    Amplifiers ready, two more DIY amps in progress. All DIY: multiple Leach amps, DIYAudio Honey Badger, Pass A75, Pass AJ clone, Pass F5TV2 cascode. Making amps takes less of a shop than cabinet work.

    Next weekend I should be able to get the MDF to start building the first cabinets before heading to my daughter's wedding.

    And away we go...
  • ---k---
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 5202

    #2
    Good to see another build thread going. Should be fun to watch. Maybe you'll inspire me to take on one of these more complex wood working projects one of these days.
    - Ryan

    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

    Comment

    • BobEllis
      Super Senior Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 1609

      #3
      Its going to be interesting to see how the facet cuts work. I have an old radial arm saw that seems like I should be able to get a bit deeper cuts than the table saw jigs with just a taper jig. Failing that I have a band saw and power plane. Cutting facets in a 3.75" thick baffle seems a lot easier than trying to assemble a faceted box.

      Comment

      • 5th element
        Supreme Being Moderator
        • Sep 2009
        • 1671

        #4
        I think the RS225, ZA14 + 27TXXX from SEAS would make for a very nice combo and will certainly echo things about the Ardent.
        What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
        5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
        Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #5
          Originally posted by BobEllis
          Its going to be interesting to see how the facet cuts work. I have an old radial arm saw that seems like I should be able to get a bit deeper cuts than the table saw jigs with just a taper jig. Failing that I have a band saw and power plane. Cutting facets in a 3.75" thick baffle seems a lot easier than trying to assemble a faceted box.
          Review how I did this in both the original Ardent thread compared with the Three Way Design Study- the DWS780 DeWalt saw was excellent at this task.

          Click image for larger version

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          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • benthe8track
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2008
            • 371

            #6
            ^ Or bribe a cabinet maker with a panel saw

            Comment

            • BobEllis
              Super Senior Member
              • Dec 2005
              • 1609

              #7
              Good ideas, both. Thanks. Of course you're feeding my Tool Acquisition Syndrome, Jon.

              Comment

              • cjd
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Dec 2004
                • 5568

                #8
                I cut the facets in the Nebbiolo with a hand-held (a nice Porter Cable circular saw, standard blade size) most of the way through, through-cut with a thin kerf hand-saw, and the clean-up with a hand plane. 3" thick baffles, 2" depth (so the cut depth I needed was 2.83")
                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                Comment

                • Steve Manning
                  Moderator
                  • Dec 2006
                  • 1879

                  #9
                  If you have a plunge router, you could set up a jig on the corners and create the facets that way ......
                  Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                  WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                  Comment

                  • CraigJ
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 518

                    #10
                    Sticking with the "poor man's build";

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                    Comment

                    • BobEllis
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 1609

                      #11
                      Tools, tools, tools! Thanks for the suggestions. I have bad had a habit of collecting tools with the idea that I will use them a lot more in the future than I actually do. Partial cuts with a circular saw are a possibility. I do have a couple of plunge routers, including Jon's favorite big one, a Hitachi MV-12. I used it to trim my MCM waveguides to height (another project that's stalled) in a jig similar to what Steve suggests. I have a power plane with a 4" cut width that is probably better suited to finish trimming facets than a router jig, though.

                      I reread Jon's suggested threads last night. Funny, someone mentioned having a 70s Craftsman radial arm saw, which is what I have. Jon's comments about the difficulty keeping it set up accurately are spot on. If it isn't moved or bumped it will stay pretty square. Assuming I can keep it set up square, it looks like I can get about 4" depth of cut when the motor is tilted 45°, or 2.75" deep facets. I've got this idea in my head of setting it up in rip fashion and using a taper sled to feed the baffles through. With the baffle properly clamped to the jig I should be able to keep body parts well away from the blade. The big question is can I get the baffle between the post and blade when properly angled. My math is a bit fuzzy, so I'm going to glue up some test baffle pieces and try it out. What a concept - proving the jig before using it on the finish piece. That hasn't been my usual habit. ops:

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15261

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CraigJ
                        Sticking with the "poor man's build";

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	ScreenShot2014-11-04at60514AM_zpsfe9e6a61.webp Views:	0 Size:	30.4 KB ID:	947636
                        The reason they call it a "poor man's build" is because after you're done buying all the tools, you'll be poor anyway, regardless of what you spend on drivers! :W
                        Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 19:12 Saturday. Reason: Update quote
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BobEllis
                          My math is a bit fuzzy, so I'm going to glue up some test baffle pieces and try it out. What a concept - proving the jig before using it on the finish piece. That hasn't been my usual habit. ops:
                          What a concept! But spending money on a few pieces of cheap OSB ply to verify the fixture sure can reduce the possibility of yield loss when you're working with the good stuff! :W :B :T
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • Steve Manning
                            Moderator
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 1879

                            #14
                            Test pieces !!! you guys are killing me :rofl::rofl:
                            Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                            WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                            Comment

                            • dwk
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 251

                              #15
                              FWIW I went the 'middle ground' route and got the DW782 SCMS. As far as I can tell, it's basically the same as Jon's DW780 but comes with a cheaper blade and omits the fancy LED cut line illumination - for this you save about $200. I justified it by getting it to build a shed rather than paying the ~$1k labor for someone else to do it. Good trade, aside from getting too ambitious on the shed design and having it take WAY more time than originally planned.

                              I move slowly on my projects, but am still considering a poor-man's Ardent/Nebbiolo inspired design . The driver choices I was thinking of were a pair of Anarchy woofers, Scan 10F mid, and one of the small-format illuminator tweeters(2004/6020-00 or 3004/6020-10). These all seem to be easy to work with and good-value drivers. The new Esoteric woofers seem to model very similarly to the Anarchy and might be a candidate as well - noticeably more expensive, but they do look rather attractive.
                              Of course, I recently saw a DIY riff on the Sonus Faber Elipsis which is making me reconsider. I'm not sure I could pull a design like that off, but they sure are pretty. The Esoterics would likely fit the aesthetics of this type of design better.

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15261

                                #16
                                For a compact longer throw bottom end, the Anarchy do strike me as a good choice- I've got a couple of pairs on hand, bought early this year, from the new supplies, but haven't had time to test them. But the data I've seen from other 3rd party testing is quite encouraging.

                                Bandwidth is the problem this last year...
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • cjd
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2004
                                  • 5568

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                  For a compact longer throw bottom end, the Anarchy do strike me as a good choice- I've got a couple of pairs on hand, bought early this year, from the new supplies, but haven't had time to test them. But the data I've seen from other 3rd party testing is quite encouraging.

                                  Bandwidth is the problem this last year...
                                  I think my 3-way with the Anarchy will not be quite so complex a box, but otherwise agree. Time aligned, all the good stuff (hopefully) in easy-to-build boxes. Or so the theory goes.

                                  That said, I got my big 3-ways fired up again for the first time since the move and... the Anarchy just doesn't cut it. There's nothing quite like the displacement in a pair of sealed 10's per side... Unless it's the 4 18's sitting in my basement waiting for me to get to that project...
                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                  Comment

                                  • BobEllis
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2005
                                    • 1609

                                    #18
                                    Status update:

                                    ZA14s received - standard shipping left within hours of my order and they were delivered in 2 days. Nice job Madisound.

                                    Local cabinetmaker who does HT installations identified as a possibility for cutting my enclosure pieces and front panels. Here's hoping that he has a big cabinet saw. Will discuss at his daughter's Christening this Sunday.

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15261

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by cjd

                                      That said, I got my big 3-ways fired up again for the first time since the move and... the Anarchy just doesn't cut it. There's nothing quite like the displacement in a pair of sealed 10's per side... Unless it's the 4 18's sitting in my basement waiting for me to get to that project...
                                      Interesting comments. The reason I'm impressed with the SW223BD01 (which are 8-3/4" drivers) is that a pair of them sealed in one box does very reasonably. Weight, definition, all the good stuff. Maybe they're right at that threshold. Full blown 10's would be even better, but a pair won't work in 40L. I'm hearing and reading that they've become very popular in Germany because of the overall LF performance; not just extension, but definition and impact.
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • BobEllis
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2005
                                        • 1609

                                        #20
                                        PE has the UM10s on sale for $110. Add that to the lumber and there goes this month's budget and then some...

                                        Comment

                                        • ---k---
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2005
                                          • 5202

                                          #21
                                          I saw that. Must resist.
                                          - Ryan

                                          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15261

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ---k---
                                            I saw that. Must resist.
                                            I saw those earlier this week and was thinking about bringing it up, but then I thought about you and Bob and figured that just wouldn't be the thing to do... might be too tempting! :B
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • cjd
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2004
                                              • 5568

                                              #23
                                              Those might do really well in a second row raised platform... hmmmmmm.
                                              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                              Comment

                                              • dwk
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Apr 2005
                                                • 251

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                Interesting comments. The reason I'm impressed with the SW223BD01 (which are 8-3/4" drivers) is that a pair of them sealed in one box does very reasonably. Weight, definition, all the good stuff. Maybe they're right at that threshold. Full blown 10's would be even better, but a pair won't work in 40L. I'm hearing and reading that they've become very popular in Germany because of the overall LF performance; not just extension, but definition and impact.
                                                Yeah, cjd's point is something I have considered. If this is a 'once in a lifetime' style project, then you don't want to be too conservative and aim too low. The compact footprint of a ~6.5" system is attractive, but realistically I'm not sure the step up to ~8" is really a barrier. I can't shake the idea that a pair of RSS210s in ~50L sealed is a reasonable poor-man's alternative to the Wavecors ($400 vs $1k), but I haven't yet proven to myself just how good they are and/or how high they can be crossed. I actually will be playing with this in the short term - reviving my NHT Xds project with a single RSS210 per side in sealed PE 1.0 mtm cabs. They've been mothballed since starting the moving process a couple years ago, but I'm going to set them up with a NanoDigi and see what comes of it. I have the black/brown Xds, and they do look quite attractive sitting on top of the cherry PE cabs, so my hope is they'll be a good stop-gap system for a couple years while I build whatever it is that I decide on.

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15261

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by dwk
                                                  Yeah, cjd's point is something I have considered. If this is a 'once in a lifetime' style project, then you don't want to be too conservative and aim too low. The compact footprint of a ~6.5" system is attractive, but realistically I'm not sure the step up to ~8" is really a barrier. I can't shake the idea that a pair of RSS210s in ~50L sealed is a reasonable poor-man's alternative to the Wavecors ($400 vs $1k), but I haven't yet proven to myself just how good they are and/or how high they can be crossed. I actually will be playing with this in the short term - reviving my NHT Xds project with a single RSS210 per side in sealed PE 1.0 mtm cabs. They've been mothballed since starting the moving process a couple years ago, but I'm going to set them up with a NanoDigi and see what comes of it. I have the black/brown Xds, and they do look quite attractive sitting on top of the cherry PE cabs, so my hope is they'll be a good stop-gap system for a couple years while I build whatever it is that I decide on.
                                                  Thanks for these inputs- it gave me some more things to think about- I have a RS210 around in my storage unit, but I don't remember which version - some significant differences between the 4 and 8 ohm versions as well as the HF and HO. But for evaluating in a possible line array, I should go back and model these drivers and the RS265 series. Good thing detailed specs are available at the DaytonAudio web site.

                                                  I should try to find that RS210 this weekend and take a look at it to get a basic idea of how well the motor works. It's also interesting to review the different impedance curves, and speculate on the inductivity modulation distortion and of course you can see the upper breakup mode. Might be a way to help "pre-select" candidates without testing all. And I do have one or two RS265 around, too.
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • BobEllis
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Dec 2005
                                                    • 1609

                                                    #26
                                                    Starting to run out of excuses. LBL boards and Baltic birch ply arrived yesterday in good shape. Rough guess is the empty cabinets will weigh in a bit over 150 pounds for the LBL baffle build. The first draft build will be a bit lighter, only single walls on the sides, although the baffle will be close to the same weight.

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                                                    Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 19:27 Saturday. Reason: Update image style

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15261

                                                      #27
                                                      Ah... wood.... high grade wood! I just ordered a few more panels from them to cover some prototyping. And the CatherineZ build.

                                                      Looks good! :T
                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Renron
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jan 2008
                                                        • 749

                                                        #28
                                                        Posting just to keep tabs on this thread.
                                                        Don' t hurt yourself lifting that wood, Bob.
                                                        Still love my Thor's, but the Ardents are so beautiful.
                                                        Ron
                                                        Ardent TS

                                                        Comment

                                                        • BobEllis
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                          • 1609

                                                          #29
                                                          Thanks for the bump, Ron. I was just about to pull the trigger on the UM10s and a leaky tire turned into a new wheel and tires. Strange that a used wheel was going to cost me as much as new until the wheel repair shop bought it and was able to resell it to me for $50 less. I knew the tires were coming due, but thought I had a little more time. I couldn't see that the inside edges were much more worn than the outside. Just in time. Installed yesterday, first snow today.

                                                          The cabinetmaker has agreed to do the facets and cut the cabinet parts for me. Now I've got to get working on laminating the baffles. A bit less DIY than usual, but the only way I will get it done before Spring. Warmish weather coming Sunday...

                                                          Comment

                                                          • dar47
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2008
                                                            • 873

                                                            #30
                                                            Glad you secured the cabinet guy, that bamboo deserves nice precise cut that will payoff big time when it comes to finishing. The guy we used was worth every penny thats coming from a guy who has spent his fare share of time in cabinet shops. :T Do you have your tolerances for the cuts planned?

                                                            Comment

                                                            • BobEllis
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2005
                                                              • 1609

                                                              #31
                                                              That's a good thing to think about, I sure didn't. I'm so used to not being able to cut terribly accurately, that I cut oversize and trim with a flush trim or pattern bit. I need to communicate my desires properly. Aside - Last night my daughter's cousin was assembling the stand for my granddaughter's cradle boat (build for my daughter). I found out that what's obvious to me isn't always so obvious. Pieces that I thought could only be assembled one way wouldn't because he hadn't used the screw countersinks as a way of identifying orientation. :roll:

                                                              This won't be a CNC job. Do you have any suggestions for the tolerance that I request?

                                                              Guess I need to do drawings better than the freehand sketch I usually work from.

                                                              BTW, the bamboo lumber is not plyboo, it's just vertical laminations. My girlfriend thinks it looks good enough not to veneer. We'll see how it looks in depth. Maybe Bamboo veneer on the cabinet sides, or would that look too much like a giant cutting board?

                                                              Comment

                                                              • dar47
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2008
                                                                • 873

                                                                #32
                                                                The bamboo vertical could be cool, you could contrast the front from the side with a simple veneer to break it up if you like. My Modula in the Av. is strip maple on the front and cherry on the sides, top and bottom. If I had to do the cabs by table saw I would, do one cheap prototype cab if not for cutting then also assemble which is tricky. I like to flush trim too but some of these are precise angled cuts. My thoughts were,

                                                                1. Oversize the front baffle on the sides by 1/16" to trim to assemble cab after the facets are cut,(we did and it worked for Jon's set as well), used a table saw and just took bites. Top and bottom have that 10 degree cut so you can do the 10 degree on the top of the baffle then the top facet. You can over size the bottom then cut the 10 degree to match the cab.

                                                                2. Dadoos in the sides and back of the baffle can be 1/32" to 1/16" bigger then the material thickness, all depending on how brave your guy is.

                                                                3. Half laps on the side to back can be 1/32" deeper or more if you want to flush trim the assembled cab.

                                                                4. With the top having 2 -10 degree cuts I literately cut to fit the dry clamped fit assemble cab with the baffle drop in place and I would do that again it worked well.

                                                                5. For assembly we glued, nailed and clamped 1 side to the back and made sure it was perfectly perpendicular or square. After that is set we glued, nailed and clamped all other parts except the baffle in 1 shot. I made stand-off's out of scrap wood to keep the bracing and mid back square while under clamp.

                                                                Easy for me to say Ha, I already did 6. If you take some time with the model and maybe go over it with the cab guy you will form a plan of attack with cutting parts and the assembly process in mind. We here to help hopeful and not screw you up to much. :E

                                                                Comment

                                                                • BobEllis
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                  • 1609

                                                                  #33
                                                                  That's great information, thanks.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15261

                                                                    #34
                                                                    I agree about the bamboo vertical being attractive. Recall the pictures of the Nascent front panels constructed by Evil Twin.

                                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                                    These appear to be unfinished, but I've experimented with both wipe on poly and rattle can lacquer on this type of LBL, and it darkens up a bit and reveals a lot more detail about the grain- very nice looking with just a clear finish.

                                                                    I wouldn't do the stepped baffle like this- this was done, I believe, to accommodate a classic B3 alignment for maximum vertical MTM dispersion in the crossover region, which benefits from near time alignment of the drivers. With the modified LR3 I use, flat baffle mounting would work fine- this is the same approach used in the Wavecor Ardent/Ardent MkII.

                                                                    We probably should start referring to this new build as the Ardent MkII, as "Wavecor" is a trademarked name
                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 19:12 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                    M8ta
                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                    Isiris
                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                    SMJ
                                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                                    Calliope
                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                    In Development...
                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                    Modula PWB
                                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • BobEllis
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Dec 2005
                                                                      • 1609

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I've been playing around with FreeCad trying to get something resembling a working drawing for my cabinetmaker. I'm still on the steepest part of the learning curve. I can't figure out how to draw the facets or speaker recesses.

                                                                      Starting with the second build, It looks a little odd with a 130 mm wide tweeter faceplate above a 120 mm diameter mid (12MU/4731T-00). It wouldn't be so odd if I could afford C90s, since they are 130 mm square. It doesn't matter too much since I plan to design the XO for grill on operation.

                                                                      I'm concerned that at 11.5" I don't have enough LBL width to allow recessing the UM10's. I figure if I am very careful gluing them up, I can end up with 290 mm baffle width and I need 275 mm diameter recess at least 45 mm deep. That's based on 33 mm static height and 19 mm xmax. My main concern is that the minimum thickness of 7.5 mm won't be strong enough to withstand cutting and handling until the baffle is completely glued up. It wouldn't with mdf, for sure. I suspect that it will be strong enough once assembled, but is my concern for the process warranted? Does it seem reasonable to just be careful handling and rout the woofer cutouts from the back forward? (So that the part being cut is always supported by a glued up assembly. I realize the mid cutouts/chamfers will need to be done before gluing to the back.)

                                                                      Another concern is the grill width at the same point, but looking at the UM10 drawings I should be able to make the hole in the grille much smaller than 275 mm and still not hit the surround at full displacement.

                                                                      Anyone with LBL experience care to comment? I've also been thinking of laminating a layer of LBL flooring to each side of the baffle to make the minimum an extra 9mm thicker. I haven't had a chance to see how the bamboo is oriented in flooring to see if that would make sense.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • dar47
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2008
                                                                        • 873

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Probably better to place your drivers on the center line and scale the width and height of the cab to keep the same spacing to side and mid bottom. The cab will be different outside but the internals will work. I'll let Ben chime in he maybe able to do this quick with the model.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • BobEllis
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                                          • 1609

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I have the drivers centered in the baffle and end up with a minimum thickness of 7.5 mm at the widest point of the woofer. If I need extra width, I could add either a layer of bamboo flooring to each side, or I have a couple extra boards that I could cut into strips and glue up an extra inch or so onto the boards before laminating them into the baffle.

                                                                          I attached a drawing of the baffle. Note how thin the sides are near the woofers.

                                                                          BAFFLE.pdf

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • dar47
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2008
                                                                            • 873

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Wow, not much there, I was thinking you scale out the internal volume the difference between the wavecor's and your 10's. It would give larger internals but the sides would still be 1 1/4" thick and the same distance from the 10" base drivers edge to the inside surface of the cab sides. it keeps the same driver breathing room and you may have enough baffle surface to pass that tweet plate with a reasonable facet close to the Ardents. Using different drivers changes scale a lot so i would play with the internals to get the scale right.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • dar47
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2008
                                                                              • 873

                                                                              #39
                                                                              If that's the maximum lbl width you can make then yes I would glue up strips to the baffle to make it wider. This still allows cutting the facets on just the glued up baffle and saves on veneering. If you bring the sides right to the front face, this also means facets cut post process and possibly veneering over the lbl.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • BobEllis
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Dec 2005
                                                                                • 1609

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Makes me wonder how Avalon crams an 11" woofer into the 12" wide Time. What they call an 11" woofer is the essentially the same size as the UM10. Locally thinned cabinet walls? I think I'll shoot for the 12" width of the Time, with areas of thinner walls at the woofer outer diameters. Still means adding to my baffle planks. Drat!

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • dar47
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Nov 2008
                                                                                  • 873

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Ya, there is a video of their construction and the MDF baffle looks ornamental with large cutouts from the inside of their MDF baffle leaving very little to the sides. If you can at least meet the sides with 1 1/4" of LBL baffle, you will be very rigid especially when the bracing is lock in place. Jon wasn't kidding when he said it feels like hitting granite. Post your drawings when your happy with the look. :T

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • BobEllis
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Dec 2005
                                                                                    • 1609

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    At 12" outside width, there's 30 mm of baffle width at its narrowest 25 mm thick under the woofer. That also should leave 12+ mm at the front edge around the woofers.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 15261

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I'm off to a seminar shortly, but will address your questions in some depth tomorrow- have a really busy day ahead. Have you ever seen the plans for the original Ardent? PM me your email and I'll send those to you. It may answer a whole bunch of questions.

                                                                                      I do agree that with the cutout for rebating the UM10 you've got a bit of an issue- to the extent that I think you'll need to laminate up two boards minimum, and then do the routing work, so that the back board helps support. Another idea is to laminate first, centering the holes, and then rip down to the required width.

                                                                                      There's always a way...
                                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                                      M8ta
                                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                                      Isiris
                                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                      SMJ
                                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                                      Calliope
                                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                                      In Development...
                                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • BobEllis
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Dec 2005
                                                                                        • 1609

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Since Renron noted that he is following, an update of sorts.

                                                                                        I'm making some progress with learning FreeCAD, but nowhere near ready to design the cabinets. I may just mark up Jon's drawings.

                                                                                        I hope to get some MDF in to start making the front panels this weekend. Last weekend the big blue box store didn't have any handy panels or anyone to cut a full sheet down to something I can handle in my car. Visiting my brother this weekend. He has a truck and a table saw, so hopefully the big box place near him will have mdf. Then I can start gluing up the baffles weeknights.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15261

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Sounds like you're going to be on a roll, no dilly-dallying around! :T

                                                                                          I just ordered some more ZA14's today, too! :B
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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