Ardent build

[flamethrower1]

Too many projects, anyway you can tell I am a fanboy

[flamethrower1]

After going through all my friends couches and collecting the loose change, I scrounged up enough money to order the tweeters.
I ordered the inductors last week from PE, all that is left are the caps and resistors.
Should hopefully start some progress on these in May after I get the Wavecores

[JonMarsh]

Ta Ta Ta Dum!
I present to you my opinion on caps. Like it or not. Ha!
I think caps make a large difference on the sound what that is coming out of your speakers. (voice of Chris Tucker from Rush Hour Movie)
I said it, flame away if you wish, Asbestos underwear donned !
I am frugal, some would say cheap. It's not being cheap it's being responsible with my limited funds. So, when I can (safely) spend less and achieve 95% of the quality, I will.
I've always got a lot of projects in the back of my mind I want to build, next is an outfeed table saw extension.
Back to caps. I've used Obbligatos for a LOOOOONG time, back when no one heard of them and the only place to buy them was Hong Kong.
My take on the ones I've used;
The Gold ones, film and foil are excellent, a tad rolled off on the top but it keeps the shouty ear bite on poor recordings to almost zero. Great for voices and wooden instruments. Pianos are not excellent, but sound good, the note "Hang time" is less robust. Overall they are 8+ out of 10. Value wise easy 9 out of 10.
Note here, a 10 would be the ClarityCap MR.
The copper ones are the next best, not as quick or as clear and true to the tonal resonance of violins or female voices. Their Meh, just OK. 7- out of 10
Big jumbo soda can size black oil capacitors are for Large size capacitance and should only be used in woofer circuits. For the uF per $$$ you can't beat them.
They sound lifeless and flat for mids and treble, for woofers they perform well and a cello sounds like a cello, base drums sound full. You can buy better caps, but the price is good and they sound fine.

I really like the old Russian caps, some of them sound excellent and can be made to sound even better. But that is another story.

Good review thread here; anything with Orgy in the name makes it better.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/284863/orgy-of-capacitors-the-cap-thread

Good prices on Obbligatos; I've ordered from them before, but it is a slow boat...........

http://www.store.diyhifisupply.com/capacitors

Jon,
If you want to test a pair of Russian caps in 10uF, I'll send you a pair. I'd like to hear your opinion on them. There obviously not Teflons at that capacitance.
Ron

Hah! I knew it! Smart guy like you went over to the Dark Side a long time ago! :W :B

Well, the Obligattos Gold sound like they may be just the ticket for midrange circuits and other places needing larger values or high bang for the buck factors.

The Russian caps sound interesting, but if they're not available anymore, I don't know if testing them would serve much purpose beyond intellectual curiosity- I have a lot of that, but not much time- this weekend being a classic case, was busy as a beaver, but didn't finish some things I'd hoped to (I always seem to forget about those "necessary" chores and things to do that also require non-zero time...)

[flamethrower1]

Did the blue kill it for the turntable?
Just wondering.
Actually got it up and running tonight, pretty impressed for a DIY project.
I have heard far worse commercial decks.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program

[JonMarsh]

aren't turntables supposed to sound warm and luscious, or something? Somehow, blue does't fit that... but if you could drive it by a multi-element LED lamp with programmable color, that changes with the music, you just might have something...

[flamethrower1]

It actually does sound warm and luscious, actually makes me look for "the next album" before the one I am listening to is half done with.
Anyway, sorry blue does not trip your trigger , I am an EMO fanboy... sorry.

[flamethrower1]

Hand assembled complete with toxicity warnings and recycling instructions, sweet

[JonMarsh]

Those are very nice tweeters, IMO. May be the best bang for the buck possible, depending on one's notion of how much bucks one is willing to spend... very close to the performance of diamond drivers.

[Renron]

FlameThrower,
Which model tweeters are those? Sorry if I missed it earlier.
You asked, remember that.
Blue killed the look you your fine TT. Beautiful wood work. A nice soft warm yellow/white glow not too bright would accent the wood. A neon bulb is a good color (kelvin Temperature) anything with ~2,000 - 2,700 Kelvin would look nice IMO. Soft Glow.
I've been happy, more than happy, with the Gold Obbligatos filtering Seas Millennium tweeters, Alison Krauss sounds so good it brings tears to my eyes.
Ron

[flamethrower1]

FlameThrower,
Which model tweeters are those? Sorry if I missed it earlier.
You asked, remember that.
Blue killed the look you your fine TT. Beautiful wood work. A nice soft warm yellow/white glow not too bright would accent the wood. A neon bulb is a good color (kelvin Temperature) anything with ~2,000 - 2,700 Kelvin would look nice IMO. Soft Glow.
I've been happy, more than happy, with the Gold Obbligatos filtering Seas Millennium tweeters, Alison Krauss sounds so good it brings tears to my eyes.
Ron

D3004/6640 as called out.
I have been kind of looking at those caps.
As far as the blue, I guess it comes down to a matter of preference, everyone on the Emotiva site liked it as well as everyone that I showed pics to.
Anyway, to each there own

[benthe8track]

Haha I forgot about the toxicity warnings with those Be tweeters. You are supposed to not light them on fire...or something.

[flamethrower1]

Yeah, apparently you are not suppose to eat them.

[flamethrower1]

Wait, what, $337.00 in resistors from Madisound, oh my land.
Anybody have a better option?

[JonMarsh]

Alternative, yes.... Better? They're small and light, try looking at the European vendors.

IMO opinion they DO sound better than the Mills resistors often used in builds, available from PE, which aren't as high power, either. The high power is desirable becuase then you don't have the same level of heating effects modulating the resistance.

Sorry, it's one of those, "If it's good enough for Magico, then they're probably good enough for me." Too bad we can't buy them in the quantity and at the pricing Magico probably gets...

[BobEllis]

Mundorf Mresist Supreme resistors are "only" $11.31 at audiohobby.eu at current exchange rates. Between the resistors and Jantzen caps they save almost $400 on the build. They don't carry Clarity caps, though I remember Jon saying you could use Z-Superior in a pinch in the tweeter circuit. He might not flog you if you did. Unlike his reaction to Ron's asking if he could use cheap caps in the midrange shunt sections.

I had sticker shock, too. I came to accept this as my once in a lifetime build, and decided to go as specified. I'll start upgrading the rest of the signal chain when I get these finished.

[flamethrower1]

Thanks Jon, never heard of Magico, cool stuff.
Wish it was warmer here so I could mow a couple of extra lawns or something to come up with some extra cash.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks Jon, never heard of Magico, cool stuff.
Wish it was warmer here so I could mow a couple of extra lawns or something to come up with some extra cash.

You could head to where I'm at ...... this week will be the 4th time I've already mowed the lawn this year!

[flamethrower1]

I would much rather be mowing than looking out my window and seeing a snow/rain mix.
I do not know why I still live in this state

[Steve Manning]

Mundorf Mresist Supreme resistors are "only" $11.31 at audiohobby.eu at current exchange rates. Between the resistors and Jantzen caps they save almost $400 on the build. They don't carry Clarity caps, though I remember Jon saying you could use Z-Superior in a pinch in the tweeter circuit. He might not flog you if you did. Unlike his reaction to Ron's asking if he could use cheap caps in the midrange shunt sections.

I had sticker shock, too. I came to accept this as my once in a lifetime build, and decided to go as specified. I'll start upgrading the rest of the signal chain when I get these finished.

Bob ...... have you ordered from these guys before? I was wondering with shipping and what ever other fees, how the bottom line actually works out over say Madisound?

[BobEllis]

No I haven't ordered - waiting on Jon to get a chance to measure some crossover changes. However, they don't charge for shipping.

[CraigJ]

I would much rather be mowing than looking out my window and seeing a snow/rain mix.
I do not know why I still live in this state

The weather will be nicer starting tomorrow. What city are you in?

[flamethrower1]

Lasen, near Appleton

[Renron]

Just a quick search turns up;
Jantzen Superior Z 10uF

From Audiohobby.eu $33.74 inc. shipping
From Amazon.com $53.24 inc. shipping
From Parts Express $45.29 + ? shipping
From FleaBay $50.34 inc. shipping
From HiFiCollective $39.38 + ? shipping

On the other hand;
Duelund Copper Foil 10uF are $538.00 each. Jantzens sound inexpensive now, right?

I'm still saving and scrounging up funds for a full parts purchase from Audiohobby.eu. Hard to beat their prices and free shipping for medium priced orders.

Audiohobby is in Tallinn, Estonia.
Hey Tek,
you live the closest (I think), well closer than I anyway, any info about this company? Have you ordered anything from them?
I did a LITTLE research on them and they have good reviews on the internet, at least they are not a scam company.
They accept CC through PayPal, even though I don't care for their politics, PayPal is a legit company.

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Ergo is quite close to them...

[sdl2112]

Just a quick search turns up;
Jantzen Superior Z 10uF

From Audiohobby.eu $40.49 inc. shipping
From Amazon.com $53.24 inc. shipping
From Parts Express $45.29 + ? shipping
From FleaBay $50.34 inc. shipping
From HiFiCollective $39.38 + ? shipping

On the other hand;
Duelund Copper Foil 10uF are $538.00 each. Jantzens sound inexpensive now, right?

I'm still saving and scrounging up funds for a full parts purchase from Audiohobby.eu. Hard to beat their prices and free shipping for medium priced orders.

Audiohobby is in Tallinn, Estonia.
Hey Tek,
you live the closest (I think), well closer than I anyway, any info about this company? Have you ordered anything from them?
I did a LITTLE research on them and they have good reviews on the internet, at least they are not a scam company.
They accept CC through PayPal, even though I don't care for their politics, PayPal is a legit company.

Ron

If I'm not mistaken the price from Audiohobby.eu is $33.74 inc. shipping if you are a non-EU resident.

Other examples from Scan-Speak are;

D3004/6640 Be tweeter@ $389.89
D2908/714000 Be tweeter @ 396.32

If true there is some real savings to be had.

[TEK]

Hi

I do not know anything about Audiohobby.eu. I found two references to them on my norwegian forum.
1 positiv confirmation that all worked out well, and one where the build continued so I assume that went well also.
Hificollective is well known. I ordered all my crossover part from them, no problem. They have often been used by other DIY'ers in Norway. Only heard good stuff about them.
European currency is really down now :-( lucky for you, you can do some nice deals now.
I'm on the other hand... 1 usd was down to around 6 nok, now its 8,25. That's a huge different.
But please buy from european countries, we need it - and the ratecis as it is to get you folks to do just that. Seems to be working ;-)

[ergo]

Audiohobby.eu - yes, the guy running the business lives few miles from my home, so I have an extra benefit of driving by to pick up my parts.
My Minerva crossover parts will come from there as well.
They have a good stock and sell quite a lot in the region (Baltic and Russia too). Also they supply some of the speaker manufacturers around here - like Estelon.

[BobEllis]

Thanks for confirming that audiohobby is real, ergo.

[TEK]

Nice, if anything goes down the drain you can just send ergo as a torpedo to get it all sorted out
First
;lx
Then
:rant:
Then
:smackbutt:
Then
:bash:
And then
;-x

I'm sure he will get it sorted out at some stage ;-)

[cochinada]

Aside from Audiohobby.eu that appears to have the best prices right now, I can strongly endorse compacbel.be. The owner Fabrice is a great guy and I can only say good things about how he runs his business. He can also get other stuff that is not listed on his site as well. It's just a matter of sending him an inquiry. As a matter of fact he was not aware of the existence of the Viablue spikes which I introduced to him and ultimately he was able to give me the best price here in Europe.

[Renron]

SDL2112,
Your are correct! Thanks for catching that. Makes the prices that much better! Post above updated with correct price. ops:

Thank you Ergo, great information and as TEK puts it, you even know where the owner lives!
Cochinada, I will add them to my list of parts vendors. Thanks!

I'll say it again, what a great bunch of people on this Forum!
Evil Twin must have "corrected" the less agreeable candidates. :T

Ron

[flamethrower1]

Ok, ordered the resistors from Madisound, not the least inexpensive source but they are literally in my back yard so to speak.
Caps are all that are left.
I have been hounding the "how to it cheaper thing" for a couple of weeks now.
After doing some research on capacitors and seeing some of the reviews, I decided to let my ears hear a difference.
I have a pair of Curts Stentorians that have the cross overs mounted in a recessed area on the rear of the cabinets.
It is a basic cross over with only two caps.
The original design had 2 Dayton caps, I looked at Tonys cap comparison and ordered Audyn plus caps.
The bottom line is, I liked the upgrade, very impressed with the way they smoothed things out.
I guess you get what you pay for.
Anyway, I am going to treat this build as my ultimate, uber, these are what you are going to live with speakers and not chince on components.
After all, the cross overs will be driving the most expensive drivers I have ever purchased

[BobEllis]

That logic sounds familiar.

[JonMarsh]

I don't think you'll regret that way of thinking... :T

[Renron]

AND............................................... .......another has succumbed to the dark side.
I feel you pain Flamethrower. ET should be pleased with another convert.
Ron

[flamethrower1]

AND............................................... .......another has succumbed to the dark side.
I feel you pain Flamethrower. ET should be pleased with another convert.
Ron

Was not quite sure what you were referring to. now I know what you meant by ET.
i still have not ordered the caps, I thought I better wait until I receive the drivers to make sure I get the -01s.
Also interested in Jons assessment of the Obligattos.
Last I heard is that they were hoping to ship them by the end of the month

[flamethrower1]

Finally got a shipping notice, I wonder how long it will take DHL to get them here.
The shipping conformation listed them as the 01's.

[JonMarsh]

Finally got a shipping notice, I wonder how long it will take DHL to get them here.
The shipping conformation listed them as the 01's.

Congrats!

i have one pair of 01's still "in stock"- but I figure to just hold on to them for the community in case someone has an unfortunate event like DC out of an amplifier...

Of course, that could never happen to me... (whistling in the dark...)

BTW, for possible future reference, HiFi Collective in the UK carries Obligatto, they list current in stock quantities, and they ship very fast, I typically get parts from them in 2 days. They're becoming my go-to source for a lot of parts.

[flamethrower1]

Jon, did you ever get a chance to test any of the Obligators?
Just wondering what your thoughts on them are.
I decided to hold off on the cap order until I actually had the wavecores in hand and they were truly the 01's.

[JonMarsh]

I have two crossovers to build and listen to, which will be using them. More in the works.

On the LCR meter and network analyzer, they look good- low dissipation factor, pretty high self resonance, what you'd expect of a fairly premium cap. The only REAL way to test at length would be identical crossovers used in the same speakers, with one cap or the other switched in. I'm mostly using this in midrange right now, but should be using them more in tweeter- that's what's planned with the upcoming Minerva crossover build. But as it's a whole new speaker, there are too many variables. What I likely need to do is build two sets of tweeter crossovers for the revised Isiris crossover or some other project, and compare them that way in a two way. Only fair way to do it. I can see that happening in a while, but I would plan to do some long term listening unless there's something that really jumps out.

Once i have some reasonable handle on them, I'll report back. But based on electrical tests and the build quality and price performance, I can say I expect they'll have homes in more than one upcoming build. (with the crossovers built into the base, testing my current Ardents would not be easy, but that's probably what I should do- built an alternate set of tweeter crossovers and bypass the built in ones. It's on my To-Do list now....)

[Renron]

In the tweeter section the Obbligatos (gold) could benefit from a Russian Teflon bypass cap, sized .01 of the Obbligato. Cymbals and Triangles really sparkle with the addition of the Ru Cap.
I think they are an awesome midrange cap. I have not made a direct comparison with either the Jantzen Superior Z or the ClarityCap MR thou. I suspect the Jantzen Superior Z to be a little better, but not by much. I have compared the Obbligatos to other mid priced caps and they certainly are a bargain for their price point. My testing was done subjectively with the Wife Unit's ears and my old ears. I am one of those who believe that caps and drivers take time to "burn in". IMO, FWIW, YMMV.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Just like most of us take time to "burn in"... :W

[flamethrower1]

DHL is quick, tracking indicates they arrived in the states although they don't say where.
Now we will have to see how fast customs processes them.

[JonMarsh]

Be curious to hear how that goes. I'm amazed at how fast I get stuff from HiFi collective in the UK. Sometimes I've ordered in the evening, so they have it the next morning early, and they ship that day, and for me it's like 2nd day delivery, as I get it two days after I order. Maybe it's different because it's Britain, not just the EU. I don't know...

[flamethrower1]

Well look what the cat dragged in.
Checked this morning and they were still in Chicago.
Glad I was home to sign for them.
So they are the 01s, now to order the caps.
Where is that debit card?