Ardent build

[JonMarsh]

That's the spirit! Glad to see those finally made it there!

Santa came here today, too, with a Mirka Deros for my next project...

I've been using Abranet disks for ages, but didn't know about the Deros until Steve Manning brought it to my attention this week... Leading me into temptation! Which was not successfully resisted!! :B

[Renron]

until Steve Manning brought it to my attention this week... Leading me into temptation!

He's a trouble maker!
Review / comparison of the Mirka and the Porter Cable please. Any final thoughts on changing the XO? Did I miss seeing this somewhere? You had mentioned that the tweeter was a tad bit hot.

FlameThrower,
More pictures of your build please! Congrats on your 01 order. Man they are HEAVY, lift one at a time.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

He's a trouble maker!
Review / comparison of the Mirka and the Porter Cable please. Any final thoughts on changing the XO? Did I miss seeing this somewhere? You had mentioned that the tweeter was a tad bit hot.

FlameThrower,
More pictures of your build please! Congrats on your 01 order. Man they are HEAVY, lift one at a time.
Ron

I'm undergoing a serious CAD setup update this weekend. I'll be reviewing all the Ardent crossover stuff including yours very soon.

There is another thing I'm looking at with regards to voicing control, which some of the core Ardent builders are signed up to participate in as a test/focus group. (adapter going between preamp and amp; balanced configuration for now). If you think you might be interested in details, let me know- you're on my 2nd wave list of folks to approach on this anyway. Gotta finish the build on the first test article, anyway- you know how it goes, all the parts are here, but there's so much stuff going on (including the house updates- pool solar and electric solar next week) that it's a juggling act with prioritizing what to do first...

[flamethrower1]

That's the spirit! Glad to see those finally made it there!

Santa came here today, too, with a Mirka Deros for my next project...

I've been using Abranet disks for ages, but didn't know about the Deros until Steve Manning brought it to my attention this week... Leading me into temptation! Which was not successfully resisted!! :B

Never heard of those sanders, they got my attention though

[BobEllis]

I'd be interested in the voicing control adapter, Jon. Thanks for your continued work on this.

[JonMarsh]

I'll PM you about it later this weekend, Bob. Has to do with Stereophonic system voicing; not something I came up with, but have been following at different levels.

[flamethrower1]

I'll PM you about it later this weekend, Bob. Has to do with Stereophonic system voicing; not something I came up with, but have been following at different levels.

Jon, I would be interested in what you are experimenting with as well, Thanks

[Renron]

I'd be interested in the voicing control adapter, Jon. Thanks for your continued work on this.

Sign me up too please. Is it something we can solder / build ourselves? Information is good!
I looked at reviews of that sander and it is the "gold standard" for others to reach. (they won't) but at $600? Pretty steep for us mere mortals. Steve is a troublemaker.

Pool Solar? I designed, built and installed my own system 4 years ago and it's wonderful. Our pool is ~18,000 gal. and it's in the mid 80s temperature wise. Topped out last year at a blistering 93!
Just wanted to see how hot it COULD get. I ran the "heater" at night for a few hours and it dropped it back to mid 80s overnight.
http://www.hi-tecsolar.com/aboutHiTec.html Bought the panels from a business n Santee Ca. near San Diego.

[JonMarsh]

GF designed and installed the pool solar about 10 years ago, but with rebuilding the roof (new sheathing, insulation) that all had to come down; now it has to go back up.

Steve is a troublemaker.

Hard to argue with that notion, but then he's a knowledgeable troublemaker (no resemblance here, of course). OTOH, I have absolutely NO idea why I've been all over Mirka Abranet disks for years and years and had no idea they made sander.... ops:


Just being a wires and sparks guy, I need every advantage I can get to cope with the woodworking end of things, and basically, that means cheating, and buying the best tools I can't afford... At least ones I can find somewhere to store- you'll notice I don't have a 12" cabinet saw tucked away anywhere...


Nice looking install on your roof, Ron. We're splitting things up into two different sections of the roof. Going with a setup with Maxeon panels, and an oversized converter so we can add another panel string if I do blow part of my savings on a Tesla when I retire in a few years. (and not a Model 3, either- have a special stash set aside that is "fully funded" as they say in the financial industry) (though I like the size of the S better, the towing hitch and rear space for a dog crate that will accommodate a Siberian Husky of the X will likely rule my choice).

https://us.sunpower.com/why-sunpower/high-efficiency-solar-technology/

The system voicing thing is basically to address something which Sigfried Linkwitz and others have built in to their more recent speaker designs, but which I figure is easy to add on external and easily reversible for experimentation- I've got a small pile of parts, but have been totally strapped for time these last weekends (and the coming two, what with nephew coming in from East Texas for July 4 weekend). Plan is to fit it into a re-wired XLR pass through made from an XLR Pad adapter.

PM me with your email address and I'll send you the PDF of presentation I put together about this. (I'll check and see if I can find your email- a quick scan didn't turn it up)

[JonMarsh]

Jon, I would be interested in what you are experimenting with as well, Thanks

PM me with your email address and I'll send you a PDF of the materials I put together about this idea

[JonMarsh]

I'd be interested in the voicing control adapter, Jon. Thanks for your continued work on this.

Can you just PM me with your email address and I'll send you the PDF on this topic- describes the whole thing, why and what.

[Steve Manning]

Hard to argue with that notion, but then he's a knowledgeable troublemaker (no resemblance here, of course). OTOH, I have absolutely NO idea why I've been all over Mirka Abranet disks for years and years and had no idea they made sander.... ops:

Now boys ...... I may be a troublemaker, but just because I point the freeway out to you, doesn't mean you need to go play on it ...... :B

[JonMarsh]

They told me a long time ago I could get hurt playing in the freeway... didn't stop me then, either.

Funny thing- it came with a DVD, which was mostly just an advert available in three languages- NOT a users manual. But have found some good reviews and tips online.

[Renron]

Now boys ...... I may be a troublemaker, but just because I point the freeway out to you, doesn't mean you need to go play on it ...... :B

Ha, so you admit it! As a kid we used to play UNDER the Freeways. Got into some trouble there a few times too.
Awe, I'm just jealous because I'll never be able to afford one now, being retired. (smirk) I'm happy with my Porter Cable model #390. Steve, if you own the PC 390 also, can you give us a quick review of both? I'm interested in the Mirka sander, just cannot afford one.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Ha, so you admit it! As a kid we used to play UNDER the Freeways. Got into some trouble there a few times too.
Awe, I'm just jealous because I'll never be able to afford one now, being retired. (smirk) I'm happy with my Porter Cable model #390. Steve, if you own the PC 390 also, can you give us a quick review of both? I'm interested in the Mirka sander, just cannot afford one.
Ron

Ron I live vicariously through Jon ...... the Mirka is on my dream list, along with a number of Festool products, I have the Porter Cable and a Black & Decker mouse sander (which is handy as hell). The Mirka just taunts me when ever I go to the Woodcraft store and walk past it. And if I really want to taunt myself I look up tools like this guy makes, http://www.holteyplanes.com/

Oh, and I believe I said I may be a troublemaker, I admit nothing that will incriminate me ..... :B

[flamethrower1]

I took advantage of the lower BP and ordered the caps, all Jantzen as per Jons original crossover design, still came to over 700.
Now to source some bamboo

[flamethrower1]

I received an email from Hificollective telling me that their inventory was off and they are short 2 10uF Superior caps.
They gave me an option of waiting until they get some more in stock(10 days or so} or to send me the Silvers at no extra charge.
Would it be ok if I ran these in the tweeter circuit?

[JonMarsh]

Also, would like to clarify that this is the correct part # for the midrange Accuton C90-6-079 5", dont need any oh shits at this price

That's the right part-

I'll post/repost from the original first thread the BOM and layout in the base for the crossover. If I'd known you needed this I could have taken pictures of one I'd flipped over this weekend. It is a tight working space, and will need some solid copper wire for connection busses- I'll explain. you can buy that in small spools, usually I use Amazon for that!

[flamethrower1]

I am just wondering if I can run the 10uF Silver caps in place of the 10uF Superior caps in the tweeter circuit without any issues?

[JonMarsh]

It will change the presentation slightly, and that just comes down to what you prefer. I agree with Tony that the Superior Z are a bit more neutral; the silver carry a bit of extra emphasis in the upper treble or presence. How that works depends a lot on the rest of your system, and what you want to hear. Fully perceiving those differences might rely on having a very solid front end source system and high grade cabling through out. I don't discuss cables here on the Guide, just do what works for me based on experimentation and feedback/cooperation with my friend in Munich, as limited by my personal finances. IF I had his kind of money, I would have all Schnerzinger in all likelihood, but I get by OK with a combination of Cardas and Ayre. With the newest system builds I plan to move from Golden reference to Cardas Clear before long, but given what I'm putting into the speakers, that won't happen for likely another year.

If these kinds of differences don't make sense to you, then the cap differences may not either... I don't know where you're coming from in the rest of your system and your listening goals. From your current profile, it looks like your focus is mainly on HT, with Emotive HT electronics. Almost anyone who has built Ardents and tried moving up from HT gear to more stereo oriented equipment in just a slightly higher price class (Ben, DAR47, TEK) has been very pleasantly surprised at the impact it's had on music playback. Something to consider...

[flamethrower1]

Jon, I can do the digging on the crossover layout though I do appreciate the offer.
I was just wondering if I should have them substitute the Superiors with the Silvers?

[flamethrower1]

Thanks Jon, that answered my question.

[flamethrower1]

Ok, have a question.
I thought I would start on the internal baffles today and after looking at the drawings from the "official Wavecor" thread, I noticed that the height of the 2 side braces is 22.5" and the center brace is 24.5".
I would think that with the center brace being dadoed into the top brace 1/4", the overall height of these would be within 1/4" of one another.
I tried to find the answer myself and came across the attached drawing which just confused me even more

[BobEllis]

The 24.5" dimension is top to bottom when tilted. The part drawing is correct. In reality it doesn't matter much since the brace doesn't reach the bottom of the cabinet.

[flamethrower1]

Thanks, Bob.
I see it now, sweet.

[BobEllis]

I only know it because it's been asked a couple times - the drawings are pretty complex, it takes a lot of staring to make them meaningful to my feeble brain.

[flamethrower1]

It also helps when you download and expand them to see what the hell you are looking at

[flamethrower1]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a DXF file for the speaker cab parts?

[JonMarsh]

I think that Ben may have that- if not, I can probably generate it from the STEPS import to Shark. Let's see if he pipes up, and if not, I'll look at converting them.

I'd say something silly like I haven't used AutoCAD in ages (true) but I have been messing around with Fusion 360 lately. Normally I'm a Shark FX kind of guy...

http://www.punchcad.com/p-29-shark-fx-v9.aspx

[flamethrower1]

Thanks Jon, I thinking of having a local shop CNC these, I know that's cheating but oh well

[JonMarsh]

Be advised Ben and DAR did just that, but they still had to hunt up a guy with a 12" panel saw to do the bevel cuts.

Personally, I think we should have special project designators, and anything built JUST with a table saw and hand tools should have a "ts" suffix... :W

[JonMarsh]

Guess what- I have a complete collection of DXF files, too, and compressed into a zip file, that's just 3.5MB.

PM me your email and I'll email it too you.

[flamethrower1]

Nevermind, I am good, thanks anyway

[Renron]

FT1, with planning and staring at the drawings long enough you can make them almost any length/width you want. I changed the sizes of mine to dado into all 4 sides of the MDF box. Like a rock, and overkill for sure, I even added a couple of dowels for fun!
Main thing is to understand the drawings completely before starting or you'll cut twice. Take your time, the fun is in the journey.

(TS) Ron

[JonMarsh]

FT1, with planning and staring at the drawings long enough you can make them almost any length/width you want. I changed the sizes of mine to dado into all 4 sides of the MDF box. Like a rock, and overkill for sure, I even added a couple of dowels for fun!
Main thing is to understand the drawings completely before starting or you'll cut twice. Take your time, the fun is in the journey.

(TS) Ron

That's the right attitude...

[flamethrower1]

Be advised Ben and DAR did just that, but they still had to hunt up a guy with a 12" panel saw to do the bevel cuts.

Personally, I think we should have special project designators, and anything built JUST with a table saw and hand tools should have a "ts" suffix... :W

Ben and Dar did it the right way in my book, like my Dad (who has been working with wood all of his life) always told me, work smart not hard

[flamethrower1]

I guess what I am trying to say is, anyone that has a given project, uses what ever resources they have available.
So I have a friend that builds cabinets and has a very nice complement of equipment, including CNC capability, why would I not go that route.
I do not care how the cut pieces reach the assembly process, and you know what, nor should anyone else.
Like Ron said, the fun is (supposed) to be in the journey.
Enough said, out

[dar47]

Thanks for the props and Dad's are smart! You will love the process as well as the sound.

Our build's were a little different though, as we had several factors in play, most important was we were time limited as Ben was very soon to leave home for a new life in a different city and we were on the clock to get a completed set for him to take. I longed to do the original set by hand but when we somehow got Jon turned on to the wavecor version and we knew he was to busy we had to act fast or the dream would die as fast. I think Steve does this trick too very well, haha. We also had some other advantages,

1. Ben was experienced with solid works for modeling and had resources to help with running the CNC. I had design and wood working build experience.
2. Our city has a place where an entrepreneur setup a place where you could rent space and use of the machinery for $150. a month. This was important as we did it in -35 deg. C. conditions outside.
3. We needed to do 4 sets and Jon's had to be worthy of his great sparks and wires skills and shipped to him for easy completion ala Steve the Minion! We did need to get xovers back fast too! Thanks Jon.
4. My last chance maybe to do an extensive project with my number one son who was learning fast! I now miss him alot.

So ours were production like and Ben has stated we would tweak things a little different with a new run. Now comes TEK and Wayne and just pop them out like no bodies business by hand, brave souls they are!

I am really enjoying Bob's and Ron's builds, methodical (raw veneer) and looks to have some very nice finishes on them. I wish everyone could build a set they are that good!

[BobEllis]

By going CNC you miss all the "fun" and learning that comes with making less than perfect cuts and figuring out how to fix it. I got better on my good cabinets than my "Poor Man's" build but one still has a bit of taper to it. Glad I decided to do a practice build first (It's still going to be completed). If my MDF baffles on the Poor Man build hadn't split I'd have had a practice round of veneering on the good build and it would have turned out better. If I factor in table saw, blades and jig setups that I purchased along with space to store them CNC would be less expensive. But now I am back into building things, so that doesn't count.

Vacuum bagging raw veneer with breather mesh is the way to go, IMHO. No worries that the veneered surface doesn't quite match the caul. With conventional glues it also makes glue bleed through less noticeable.

[Evil Twin]

An admirable attitude Mr. Ellis, your efforts and persistence are to be commended. Your comments remind me of Mr. Marsh's first Ardent build, and some of the challenges encountered. OTOH, the Isiris bypassed a lot of those issues completely while still being table saw based. I am using that model of planning and execution for my current project, but realize there will be many times I would wish to have a skilled minion like Stephen Manning at my side...

Your attitude fuels your strength in the Force... Never forget that.

[Steve Manning]

By going CNC you miss all the "fun" and learning that comes with making less than perfect cuts and figuring out how to fix it. I got better on my good cabinets than my "Poor Man's" build but one still has a bit of taper to it. Glad I decided to do a practice build first (It's still going to be completed). If my MDF baffles on the Poor Man build hadn't split I'd have had a practice round of veneering on the good build and it would have turned out better. If I factor in table saw, blades and jig setups that I purchased along with space to store them CNC would be less expensive. But now I am back into building things, so that doesn't count.

Vacuum bagging raw veneer with breather mesh is the way to go, IMHO. No worries that the veneered surface doesn't quite match the caul. With conventional glues it also makes glue bleed through less noticeable.

I don't know Bob ..... I think I've had tons of "fun" with the Minerva project, even with the CNC part added in.

[Renron]

FT1, Dar47, Benthe8track & Jon,
There is absolutely nothing wrong or improper with CNC cutting parts for the Ardent. No one intended any offense. Technology & progress with finely cut parts are their own reward. Plus it's a LOT faster!
However, there is a special sense of pride and accomplishment from build a TS Ardent. (like that name) They are technically difficult and complex speakers to build correctly. Being a Professional Termite I enjoy the building / design challenges and the opportunity to learn raw veneer technique. (it ain't all that fun)
FT1, Enjoy the build process and the finalized product of your effort, however you get there.
Ron
TS Ardent

[sdl2112]

Agreed...

I was a little chicken to try anything too difficult with the SSA-WG so I stuck with right angles and no veneer... I just told myself...do it the best I know how and learn from it for the next build. :T

[flamethrower1]

I have 19 speaker cab builds under my belt.
All done on my table saw and all hand (no vacuum machine) veneered except 4 of them.
2 were painted and the IDS-25 clones where done with pre veneered mdf.
I do not believe my sense of pride would be any different in the end if I did them with a jackknife.
Nuff said

[TEK]

I have 19 speaker cab builds under my belt.
All done on my table saw and all hand (no vacuum machine) veneered except 4 of them.
2 were painted and the IDS-25 clones where done with pre veneered mdf.

;x(

I do not believe my sense of pride would be any different in the end if I did them with a jackknife.
Nuff said

That's a project thread I would have followed!