Another Wavecor Ardent build

[JonMarsh]

Off Topic and letting off some steam. I answered a question about bypassing a cap on DiyAudio and was immediately flamed and roasted by even a Moderator for my ignorance. Now I remember why I don't go there too often. Jerks...
Sorry for thread drift. But being rude and not allowing (or hearing) alternative opinions sucks.
Ron

Signal to noise ratio is very poor over there- a lot of the noise seems to come from excretory orifices.

[Renron]

I love you guys............... Hugs all around.
I apologize for my previous post, I'm sure that I looked like a cartoon character with steam erupting from my ears.


Back on topic, I wonder why FedEx knocks so lightly?, they do it at my house too but the office is next to the door and I hear them before they can sneak away.
Looking / reading up on Dacs, what is a multi-bit dac? and how is it different / better?
Also, on topic; Anyone able to recommend a good Diy lineal power supply kit for a Dac? 9V or adjustable is good.
Ron

[BobEllis]

No worries, Ron.

As for what is a multi-bit DAC, this review sort of explains http://www.computeraudiophile.com/co...it-dac-review/ See also the FAQ at http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

Schiit desribes multi bit as keeping the original signal and just interpolating the levels in between when oversampling. Delta-Sigma essentially approximates the signal when oversampling, so any original level in the signal is coincidental. Why D-S? Cheaper chips and cheaper filter algorithms. The Yggy DAC chip is $88 each @ 100 pieces. I can't find it now, but I remember seeing the ESS9018 for $37 at one piece.

It seems the biggest difference in D-S DACs is their noise shaping algorithms. Multi Bit doesn't deal with that.

As far as I can tell, in the Schiit Lineup Modi MB is the same DAC section as the Bifrost without the reclocking. Gungnir has better reclocking and a step up DAC, and Yggy is another step up in both.

If I am able to get a Yggy before Jon buys one, I'll send it to him for testing and evaluation. Just a thank you for the work done here. Hopefully it will knock his socks off and he'll want to buy one of his own.

[JonMarsh]

Multi-bit DACs like the TotalDAC Dx series (which does it with an FPGA and discrete foil resistors) or the AD chip used in the Yggy are full R2R ladder DACs. Now, the one in the YGGY accepts 24 bit data inputs, but it actually is a 22bit DAC, as regards the working stuff. Like Mike Moffat says, it's used normally in things like Medical and military electronics, where complete precision and control is required. Actually doing an end to end system that delivers true 21 bit performance is not at all trivial- one of the specs used to characterize digital systems is the real equivalent bit resolution, considering not only the resolution, but also the precision of the output, and the total S/N ratio. A lot of 24 bit or DSD type DACs (which is the ultimate delta-sigma sort of DAC) only achieve 17 or 18 real world bits. Some, like one fate playback systems designs, as tested by Stereophile, struggle to get a true 16 bit performance.

For an example of why delta sigma may not be all that cool, go look at the measured performance at Stereophile of the PS Audio DirectStream DAC. It's all done in an FPGA, so it is fully software upgradeable, and has gone through several updates. I'll post more about this later, but let's say the conventional distortion measurement isn't the last word in how a DAC sounds. But using filters that upsample and throw away the original data points (as most do, unlike the YGGY) aren't really cool, IMO. YMMV, its interesting that people are trying so many solutions. I tend to use an an acid test, is how good can it make good old 16/44 stuff sound? Because I have an AWFUL LOT of music in that format, which will never be available in anything else.

[dar47]

.

I tend to use an an acid test, is how good can it make good old 16/44 stuff sound? Because I have an AWFUL LOT of music in that format, which will never be available in anything else

I agree, it better do a great job here and if I am upgrading it better do it even better here!

[BobEllis]

Still waiting on a dozen caps for the woofer section and shunts. How is this going to fit inside? The box is 10" wide - more than the interior width. I'm starting to think this is an external crossover speaker.

[JonMarsh]

A lot of the guys built part into the base and the rest internal. I built everything into the base. I think there are pictures in the original thread- I'll bump it up.

[JonMarsh]

I replied with quotes to key posts about the crossover in base with pictures, to bump those to the end of the thread for you, Bob.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. I remembered that, but going all Obbligato in the midrange more than doubles the size of the caps - a single 47 µF is a third bigger than a 56 µF Cross Cap, and there are 2 plus a 15. I'll have to do some serious fiddling. Maybe it'll be some on the bottom of the base, some on top and some internal. An external XO wouldn't be the end of the world, though.

[sdl2112]

Still waiting on a dozen caps for the woofer section and shunts. How is this going to fit inside? The box is 10" wide - more than the interior width. I'm starting to think this is an external crossover speaker.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26329[/ATTACH]

What a beautiful sight...

Very few understand...:W

[JonMarsh]

Oh, but we do... :B

[Evil Twin]

Still waiting on a dozen caps for the woofer section and shunts. How is this going to fit inside? The box is 10" wide - more than the interior width. I'm starting to think this is an external crossover speaker.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26329[/ATTACH]

Most certainly a beautiful sight to behold... one is confident of the outcome.

[BobEllis]

After much gnashing of teeth and worry, I followed Jon's procedure and made a template to represent the space available. I placed the parts on the template and wondered if the remaining space would be sufficient to accommodate the yet to arrive cross caps. As luck would have it, several of the Obbligato caps are just slightly larger than the missing cross caps. These and a couple other appropriately sized parts bin caps were used as mock ups. It turns out the crossover will almost fit on a single side of the base. I'll mount C5 and the R5 stack on the top side.

Now to get some polishing time in and assemble the bases and crossovers.

[Steve Manning]

After much gnashing of teeth and worry, I followed Jon's procedure and made a template to represent the space available. I placed the parts on the template and wondered if the remaining space would be sufficient to accommodate the yet to arrive cross caps. As luck would have it, several of the Obbligato caps are just slightly larger than the missing cross caps. These and a couple other appropriately sized parts bin caps were used as mock ups. It turns out the crossover will almost fit on a single side of the base. I'll mount C5 and the R5 stack on the top side.

Now to get some polishing time in and assemble the bases and crossovers.

Bob, don't know if your a CAD man, but Sketchup worked well for Jon and I determining volume requirements for crossover parts for the Minerva project. Just got the sizes from spec sheets for the parts and started playing.

[BobEllis]

Doh! Stand some of the caps on end! Then it fits.

Every time I've tried to learn a CAD program it was with a project in mind. The learning curve has been steep enough that I've just sketched on paper and worked out dimensions.

[Renron]

Doh! Stand some of the caps on end!

Oh, you can't do that! all the electrons will fall out. :E

Bob, take a look at how I built my XOs, woofer circuit inside speaker carcass, T & M inside the base. Because I'm difficult and had to have a different mid, I ended up with more components. I also divided up the large values into smaller ones (more caps) because I really like the quality of the Russian NOS.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Doh! Stand some of the caps on end! Then it fits.

Every time I've tried to learn a CAD program it was with a project in mind. The learning curve has been steep enough that I've just sketched on paper and worked out dimensions.

Bob, you might want to give Sketchup a try ...... for something like cylinders and blocks it's pretty straight forward to use. The good thing is you can also get it for free, just download Sketchup Make. It will do most of what the pro version does and you can get plug in's from the community to do the rest and save $500.

[Mr.Ed]

Doh! Stand some of the caps on end! Then it fits.

Every time I've tried to learn a CAD program it was with a project in mind. The learning curve has been steep enough that I've just sketched on paper and worked out dimensions.

Don't feel bad Bob. I work on a pc board layout cad system all day at work, but when I do my
crossovers I use paper and pencil or puppets. Go figure.
-Ed

[BobEllis]

I will probably go that way, Ron, just to get a bit more space to work with. Nothing magical about getting it all in one space. I'm not buying more parts, unless my audiohobby.eu order doesn't arrive shortly. The mid and tweeter parts are in, except for the second shunt caps. I suppose I could add a 1 µF to the C6 stack of Obbligatos to get to the exact prescribed value. Only another $21 for Superior-Zs, but I can't imagine it would add too much flavor with 107 µF of Obbligato in parallel.

I'll play with sketchup again once I don't have an active project.

I think playing with the parts is much easier than looking at a 3D rendering on a screen, Ed.

[Renron]

Bob,
I'm in your camp when it comes time to "puppet" parts. Seems an appropriate term. I think of it as Parts Jenga.
A smart guy like you should be able to knock this out in less than 1 beer's time. Not sarcasm. I agree also that the 1uF cannot be heard in that instance.
I think you'll be done and listening soon.

Steve, your sketchup looks great. Nice job. I'm surprised Jon didn't fill up the "extra" space when he saw the amount of Real Estate available.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

I completely agree Bob ...... for the Minerva and my Jensen builds I had to make sure I had enough room prior to building though. Of course the major restraint was to keep the crossover components out of the main cabinet. On the Minerva I got Jon to at least commit to what brands were to be used and went from there. I actually had to increase the size of the crossover section by ~20% from the first cut drawing. Now if Jon were to change his mind about what's going in there, which of course he would never do he's kind of on his own at that point.

Thanks Ron ...... and I have a feeling Jon will make use of every bit of that extra space!

As a general note though .... I've found the drawings to be a very useful "will it all fit" tool. I usually end up doing what you do and play with the parts to get the best fit before final assembly. Not that I've built that many systems, but it seems to work for me and I take notes from the rest of you guys on what works and what doesn't.

[JonMarsh]

Oh no, I never change my mind or make mistakes that I have to fix afterwards, no, that's not me.... Not much, not too often!!

Planning for success is what Steve is talking about... Having a plan and working the plan, with maybe some wiggle room built into the plan to allow for unexpected contingencies.

[sdl2112]

Bob, don't know if your a CAD man, but Sketchup worked well for Jon and I determining volume requirements for crossover parts for the Minerva project. Just got the sizes from spec sheets for the parts and started playing.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26332[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26333[/ATTACH]

Steve, that is attention to detail and planning. Nice Job!

One thought..If L7 and L8 are cored bar inductors their flux path may travel through L4 causing interaction. Visualize a spraying water fountain out the ends...If centered on L4's height the flux lines would cancel and theoretically be ok....If possible you might try to move it.

[Steve Manning]

Steve, that is attention to detail and planning. Nice Job!

One thought..If L7 and L8 are cored bar inductors their flux path may travel through L4 causing interaction. Visualize a spraying water fountain out the ends...If centered on L4's height the flux lines would cancel and theoretically be ok....If possible you might try to move it.

Thanks Scott ...... as I recall they are and I will keep that in mind come build time for the crossovers. That would be interesting to see what that would look like ..... though at this point it was a "will the 10 lbs of dodo fit in the 5 lb bag. At this point I'm not sure what the final component choices are ...... I know Jon has a few minor changes over the earlier version of the crossover, but we have not discussed it recently .... he seems to have gotten a "little" side tracked with the Katana project. None the less we should have plenty of room to move stuff around.

[BobEllis]

The parts from Fidelity Components Shop (audiohobby.eu) arrived today. Well packed, by registered mail. I was starting to assume that the package had been lost, but it's only been 10 days since it was shipped. Tracking stopped at the Estonian border. I'd asked them what is their typical transit time to the US, it's 5-10 working days. For whatever reason, the US Postal Service does not provide tracking information.

If you can live with roughly 10 working day delivery, there are good prices at audiohobby.eu

Funny how spoiled I am by Amazon Prime and Hi Fi Collective 2 day shipping. Parts Express is close enough that deliveries are in 2-3 days. Madisound and Meniscus only take 3-4. It wasn't that long ago that ordering something and having it within a week was amazingly fast.

Now to play with the puzzle pieces.

[BobEllis]

So I finally overcame my trepidation about knocking down the gloss and started polishing. The General Finishes High Performance Gloss self leveled after brushing better than rattle can spraying. Here is what the top looks like after completing the first round at 600 grit. Still a bit to go, but it's looking very promising.

[Steve Manning]

So I finally overcame my trepidation about knocking down the gloss and started polishing. The General Finishes High Performance Gloss self leveled after brushing better than rattle can spraying. Here is what the top looks like after completing the first round at 600 grit. Still a bit to go, but it's looking very promising.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26343[/ATTACH]

Bob, are you dry sanding or wet ..... just curious.

[BobEllis]

Wet sanding. I didn't go for the Mirka products just because I have a large supply of automotive sandpaper. Rinse frequently and at the first sign of dragging.

Here is post 1,000 grit. Wiped down and allowed to dry.

[BobEllis]

Now post 2,000 grit. Automotive polishing compound tomorrow and a coat of wax. At low angles there is a lot of gloss, straight on it looks satin.





The blue splashes are over saturated sky reflections. I had to really crank up the saturation to get the image to look like the real thing. Still Iphone pictures.


As a side note, my first pieces of Schiit arrived today. A Modi MB DAC and a Sys to allow me to control the volume. I don't have a USB cable to run it in that mode. I only have the computer's built in DAC and an M-Audio FW 410 to compare with. Comparison to the Oppo BDP-103 will have to wait until after we close the camp and I move back home.



Edit: The output of the Modi MB is higher than the FW410 output, so it makes direct comparison tough. Even with the crummy speakers and T-amp I'm using it seems like a significant improvement. Everything has more weight and sense of space around it, in comparison the instruments sound further away and in an anechoic chamber with the FW410. I used to think the FW410 sounded pretty good...
I'll have to make a pad to reduce the output of the Mimby to match the FW410 and do a real test later.

[Evil Twin]

I can not pass up the opportunity, no offense intended, but that looks like Schitt. But the cabinet veneer is another matter...

The pictures hint at what you have achieved with your hard work on the cabinets, but the limited dynamic range of JPEG on the phone, and possibly mixed lighting sources make realistic color rendering out of the question.

[BobEllis]

It's some engaging Schiit. I've been going through my music collection like I haven't in quite some time. Can't wait to hear the Ardents driven by a proper amp. Tomorrow I may pull out the A75 to give these speakers their best shot.

[Steve Manning]

Very nice Bob ..... I imagine they are even better in person.

[Renron]

Those speaker look fantastic. Very nice grain pattern and depth of finish. I'm sure they look better in person. Your hard work has paid off in a big way. Professional results.
The background landscape is So green, I'm sure it effects the color rendition of your photos. Beautiful location and looks very calming and relaxing. How do you get anything done? I'd just sit on the porch and look at the trees.
Glad your DAC sounds good. Schiit has very good reviews on all their products. Quality upstream and downstream with your Ardents, in a setting that poets would be inspired by.
Looking good Bob.
Ron

[BobEllis]

That's part of the reason tnese didn't get finished in June. I spent more time wet sanding than expected yesterday, so my riding buddy made up for our lack of ride by going long today. https://www.strava.com/activities/687906800 My longest ride of the year and most climbing in a single ride ever. So much for polishing today. I'm lucky to be able to cook dinner


Some other local scenery that makes it hard to focus on speaker work. It's so quiet that it's a great listening environment.

[Steve Manning]

Some nice reasons to play hookie Bob.

[CraigJ]

Super nice Bob,

Is the second picture really from out east and what the heck does a Suffer Score of 286 mean? 83 miles with only 4200 calories burned (ouch) for 7 hours, pretty impressive.

[BobEllis]

I have Lake Champlain a quarter mile to the East and the Adirondacks 30 miles west. The mountain picture is at the top of a miserable climb - not so bad really, except that it's under 5 minutes of warmup before I hit a 15 minute grind.

Suffer Score is a measure of how hard I worked. It's sort of an integration of heart rate over time that gives extra credit for going near your maximum. Climbing some of the longer. steeper hills I went above my predicted maximum heart rate - though not as high as I've gone for short efforts. Lets just say my heart thinks I'm only 45. If only my back and knees acted that young.

[Evil Twin]

Lets just say my heart thinks I'm only 45. If only my back and knees acted that young.

This is what I believe would be referred to as the "money quote" in this part of the Galaxy. It sounds quite familiar...

My nephew reports to me that my younger sister (his mother) is a virtual cripple compared with me, but then she has long standing lifestyle issues which do not stem from an abundance of exercise.

Karma.

[Renron]

I think I'm in Jon's camp with the suffer score, it's a measure of how hard you twist your right wrist. Zoom.
My son's say I'm strong like Bull, dumb like Ox. Not too much heart work out these day, the knees won't take the punishment. Too many years of Martial Arts.
Those are some strikingly beautiful photos Bob. Nice place to live. Congrats.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the compliments Ron. This has been my happy place all my life. Other mountains may be more dramatic, but these soothe me.

I took up cycling because my knees wouldn't take running. A couple falls hiking too quickly downhill as a kid took out my ACLs and one MCL. Of course back then, knee surgery meant you weren't likely to walk without a cane, so I just strengthened everything else to compensate. Luckily when I started serious cycling I was stationed in Pensacola and able to spin so that there wasn't much stress on my knees. Had I tried to start up here, it might not have worked so well. My "Granny" gear is so low that I was embarrassed to put it on, but some hills around here there is no getting away from maxing out the heart rate if I don't want to fall over Artie Johnson style. Even so, my back and knees are better with cycling than if I take a week off.

[Steve Manning]

This has been my happy place all my life. Other mountains may be more dramatic, but these soothe me.

I know what you mean Bob, though I'm flipped for the other coast ..... I have the same attachment to the Pacific Northwest and the beauty out there.

[dar47]

Love the rural shots! You guys were following the first builds thoroughly, we now have nature shots and now we need to see some Motor bike shots, haha

[Evil Twin]

Perhaps we can accommodate you- when the current build is complete, perhaps we can position it next to a black and silver VFR1200?



With the EFI modifications that have been made, I assure you it is the two wheeled equivalent of a Tie Fighter- roll on wheelies being only a twist of the wrist away (the factory restriction on torque below 6000 RPM in the first two gears has been removed).

[TEK]

Hmm, if we're showing off nature...

https://www.facebook.com/trondeirik.kolloen/videos/10152200103566937/

Bob: What a ride...
And Bob: What a finish! Great work!
Jon: A lot of envy... Never got the license to drive motorcycle. I figured out that was the best as I was pritty sure that I would drive me to death if I had got it (still pritty sure I would have back then)

[BobEllis]

Beautiful, TEK. I wish I was still able to hike. I can ride a long distance, but can barely walk on uneven ground. I have to enjoy scenery like that vicariously. Thanks for sharing.