Another Wavecor Ardent build

[BobEllis]

Thanks! I'll give it a try.

[JonMarsh]

I second Mike on the Mirka pads- heck, I didn't even know that they made orbital Sander's and polishers until Steve told me about them, but I've been using Abranet sanding disks and Abralon fine grit sanding pads for years; because of the way they're made, the material is completely porus and sanding debris gets sucked up into your hose immediately. The Abralon pads are for wet sanding.

[Steve Manning]

Hey Bob, though I expect you already have something similar, but if you do go with the Mirka discs, I picked up one of these recently for using the discs by hand. Works very well.

[BobEllis]

Thanks. Was looking for that. I had something similar but haven't seen it since I moved.

[JonMarsh]

For the SW223DD02 version

Here's an update for using the SW223BD02

First, just the schematic:





And second, the SPL response




This is basically the TA5 (test article 5) release with modified resistors (the RIGHT resistors modified the RIGHT way; they interact differently with the network as some of you have discovered)

However, the value for L1/L1011 (as numbered by VituixCAD) is suggested to be changed from 5.6 mH to 5.1 or 5.0; if you already have a 5.6, use as is (just slightly flatter with the different value) OR if you have an LCR meter unwind your inductor to that value. seriously, just how you have them setup in your room will make more difference in the lower midrange than this.. but this would be the optimum for the BD02.

With regards to the tweeter, two points:

• Using the new values, and if you should want to raise or lower the overall trebel level, do it by adjusting the shunt resistor R6/R3051 or better yet, use the voicing filter (or use the Force, Luke!)
• Second, the dip in the response around 4 kHz is due to a cabinet diffraction effect which goes away as you get slightly off axis - it's not something to fix in the crossover, the power response being radiated by the tweeter is quite steady. You'll also see less of this effect with the grilles and recommended felt diffraction contol in place, but these are from bare cabinet measurements.

[BobEllis]

Thank you so much, Jon.

I have purchased nothing but the tweeter caps, so no unwinding for me. Once I saw that it was more than a resistor change I figured more values would change. Guess I will upgrade my current speakers with the Clarity 4.7µF caps. Funny, I'd played with it and decided 3.9 µF was the way to go on the tweeter. Other values I came up with were similar, surprisingly.

I assume you still recommend Z-superior for midrange series caps. Resistors all doubled 20W? Is that 0R05 the ESR of the cap in the midrange or a discrete part? Guessing separate part due to no other caps' ESR indicated, but want to be sure.

EDIT: What tolerance should I shoot for on resistor values? Many no longer are half of a standard value M-Resist Supreme. The zoebel resistor in the woofer circuit is now 3.9R from 11R? Parallel 8.2 gets about 5% high. Parallel 10R is 6% high. I suppose I could just go series parallel and make each an 80W $40 resistor but ouch.

[JonMarsh]

That's just the ESR of the cap. Nothing to worry about.

You might want to price out the Obligatto gold film caps from HiFi collective. Thats what I'm using for midrange now in new builds. Except for L1 and the noted resistors, no other components changed.

[BobEllis]

Thanks Jon.

What tolerance should I shoot for on resistor values? Many no longer are half of a standard value M-Resist Supreme. R5 in the woofer circuit is now 3.9R from 11R? Parallel 8.2 gets about 5% high. Parallel 10R is 6% high. I suppose I could just go series parallel and make each an 80W $40 resistor but ouch.

[JonMarsh]

Getting within 5% is realistic, and shooting high is usually better than shooting low. In the woofer circuit, you could use Mills from Parts Express or where ever and parallel to get the values; four 12 watt 16 ohm would do the job nicely. And be less expensive.

A three ohm shunt should be two 1.5 in series. Of course, that leaves the problem of the 3.3 ohm series; that is a standard value; for E24 values; but two 6.8 in parallel will just about get you there, at 3.4. That's the way to approach the problem. I generally always shoot for a standard E24 value, which is for 5% resistors, but people making "boutique" components don't necessarily supply the full portfolio for that tolerance.

[BobEllis]

Thanks again, Jon for your attention to this project.

Obligattos in available values are certainly less expensive than the same value Z-superior, but HiFi Collective is almost as pricey as Parts Express for the other Jantzen parts. They price the Clarity MR 400V well below Madisound. Guess caps and resistors will be a split order with HiFi Collective and Audiohobby.eu

Do you really need more than a single 20W resistor for the tweeter circuit? You didn't draw the original that way.

[JonMarsh]

Probably not. I build them that way not so much for power dissipation per se, but so that the resistors are running cooler and there will be little temperature related shit in vales. But with the resistor values offered, sometimes you have to use two if you want to get the exact value, like the 3 ohms.

[BobEllis]

Here's my BOM for the XO. I already bought the Clarity MR 10µF caps. Would have saved $60 had I known about Hi Fi Collective...

Off to clear my head on my bicycle and review before pulling the trigger.



EDIT - Price listed for the 3.9 µF Z-Superior is actually for the 3.3 µF. Correct price is $15.73.
Continuing Jon's theme of not all standard values get manufactured, the Mills resistors are only available in 15 ohm, not 16. I will parallel 5 to get 4 ohms for the 3.9 target.

[Renron]

Bob,
Parts Connection has a sale on ClarityCap MR 400V caps. 40% off. 10UF is ~$56

http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_claritycap_mr400v.html

Their prices are usually too high for me, but I watch for sales.

Clarity Cap also has a new line of Caps on the market. They're Purple! Nice!

El Cheapo,
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron. Forgot to look there. That $34.35 is a nice savings, $15 pair over Hi Fi Collective price. Madisound wants $60 for 3.9 µF

[BobEllis]

Crossover parts ordered. The savings Ron found for me on the Clarity Caps more than paid for expedited Hi Fi Collective shipping. Breaking the order up between four vendors made it hurt less than if I'd spent it all in one place.

Fidelity Components Shop (audiohobby.eu) didn't mention some parts on backorder until after paying. They only offered one shipping option. Hopefully there won't be a significant delay so Ron won't finish before me.

[Evil Twin]

Pray you both may finish before me, but do not count on it at this rate- I have all crossover parts on hand!

[BobEllis]

We shall see if your dark powers can control the weather well enough to allow for finishing your cabinets, Lord. I won't return to my project until next weekend. Some parts may arrive by then, but I have a bit of polishing to do anyway.

[BobEllis]

Oh well, the Clarity MRs are out of stock at parts connexion. No response yet whether the 630V version is available. That's about the same price as a new order at HiFi Collective. At any rate, when I inquired about expected in stock date, I was told that they don't have any on order and the MR line may be superceded by something new? Like the CMR line available at Hi Fi Collective? Has anyone used CMR?

[JonMarsh]

CMR is the new line replacing MR. Don't expect to see MR's around anymore.

[BobEllis]

Guess I will spend the extra $10 each on CMRs to have the latest and greatest.

[BobEllis]

Parts Connexion hasn't got any version of the 3.9 µF MR, so I ordered the CMR from Hi Fi Collective. Yesterday's order shipped this morning for delivery tomorrow. How do they do that? I should have all the parts by the time I get home ready to work on my Ardents.

[Evil Twin]

Parts Connexion hasn't got any version of the 3.9 µF MR, so I ordered the CMR from Hi Fi Collective. Yesterday's order shipped this morning for delivery tomorrow. How do they do that? I should have all the parts by the time I get home ready to work on my Ardents.

Time zones and hard work, working to our advantage...

[Horio]

Parts Connexion hasn't got any version of the 3.9 µF MR, so I ordered the CMR from Hi Fi Collective. Yesterday's order shipped this morning for delivery tomorrow. How do they do that? I should have all the parts by the time I get home ready to work on my Ardents.

That's interesting Bob. I'm looking at Parts Connexion's website right now and it seems like they have both the 3.9 uF and 10 uF Clarity MR 400V in stock and on sale. I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on those 4 caps since they are 40% off at the moment.

[BobEllis]

That's why I went there but the website is out of date. Hi Fi Collective has the best price on MRs in stock and is the only place I've found with CMRs.

[BobEllis]

Lots of the crossover parts are here, but I am still waiting on my order from http://audiohobby.eu/ which is most of the caps.

I got itchy and ordered a Schiit Modi2 Multibit DAC. I hope to get their Yggy before long, but after buying the crossovers it has to wait. This allows me to get a taste of multibit DACs when I complete my Ardents. The Modi will then go to the secondary system. Online reviews (for what they're worth) suggest that the Modi MB is the closest to the YGGDRASIL sound of the Schiit multibit DACs. Others suggest it is significantly better than the DAC built into my Oppo BDP-103. It will be interesting to compare.

[JonMarsh]

Lots of the crossover parts are here, but I am still waiting on my order from http://audiohobby.eu/ which is most of the caps.

I got itchy and ordered a Schiit Modi2 Multibit DAC. I hope to get their Yggy before long, but after buying the crossovers it has to wait. This allows me to get a taste of multibit DACs when I complete my Ardents. The Modi will then go to the secondary system. Online reviews (for what they're worth) suggest that the Modi MB is the closest to the YGGDRASIL sound of the Schiit multibit DACs. Others suggest it is significantly better than the DAC built into my Oppo BDP-103. It will be interesting to compare.

I'll be curious to hear what you think, Bob. I'm basically in the multi-bit camp, too, and plan to get a Yiggy someday to test and see if it can be a solid recommendation for my friends- hoping it has some of the same virtues as my TotalDAC.

[BobEllis]

I'll let you know as soon as I start listening. Still waiting on the batch of caps from audiohobby. Great prices but there was no option to expedite shipping. Hopefully very soon.

[Horio]

That's just the ESR of the cap. Nothing to worry about.

You might want to price out the Obligatto gold film caps from HiFi collective. Thats what I'm using for midrange now in new builds. Except for L1 and the noted resistors, no other components changed.

Jon,

Would you recommend the Obbligato's for all capacitors in the mid-section or just certain positions? I noticed Bob is only using them for the 10uF and 15uF locations.

Thanks!

[BobEllis]

Horio,

I used them in place of the Z-Superior spots, where the proper value was available. They are pricier than the Z-Standard and cross caps. They might be slightly better sounding if you built up the larger values with them but would really increase the crossover cost. I figured if Standard and Cross Caps worked for a man of Jon's ear and depth of pocket I'd save where I could. I've spent about $1,100 on the crossovers. Not nearly as much as if I'd sourced the parts all in the US, but still significant to me.

[Evil Twin]

Bob's advice is sound from a cost vs performance viewpoint. Were one to build a new set, I would use Obligattos for all the series values (two 47uf for the big one) and for the 26uF first shunt cap, but leave the other shunt in the RC zobel as is.

It is normal for this build to wind up with $1200 to $1400 in crossover BOM. The overall BOM for this design (without special overseas vendors) was originally priced out around $5K. That's a lot of enchiladas, but then it's target is a $28K speaker (Avalon Indra) which it actually outperforms in bass extension, treble extension and distortion, and output level and ease of drive (impedance is pretty benign). The Avalon speaker it's most similar to performance wise is the Time, which is $48K. OTOH, it's no bigger than the Indra. The main "compromise" is the sensitivity; they're like Maggie's, they prefer amps in the 100W range minimum up, and 200W/Ch is better.

[BobEllis]

Oh Geez. It's only $280 to do as ET commands. I suppose that's not too much in the overall scheme. And I will have a variety of caps to use when I return to the Poor Man's Ardent.

[dar47]

Yup, when your listening to your $6,500. speaks that truly sound like $45,000. all the smiles will melt any thought of parts cost especially crossovers. It's the now I want the new pre-amp and dac.:W8O

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the assurance. Having read your comments on how well they respond to equipment upgrades I planned on a Yggy early next year. Have to get cracking on my Aleph-P clone soon so I have a proper balanced preamp.

[dar47]

I heard 1 of their new multi bits Bifrost through that cute little tube amp Valhala2 into headphones of a buddies at work. Definitely a step up from their previous stuff. My impression was base and mids much better then last Bifrost. He leaves that stuff on his desk and I am surprised no one has tucked it and ran yet.haha

[BobEllis]

Most people wonder why he doesn't just plug his headphones into the jack on his computer and don't see any value in all that expense. Glad we're not most people.

[Evil Twin]

Yup, when your listening to your $6,500. speaks that truly sound like $45,000. all the smiles will melt any thought of parts cost especially crossovers. It's the now I want the new pre-amp and dac.:W8O

On that path like the true power of the Dark Side...

[Renron]

I am surprised no one has tucked it and ran yet.haha

E.T. is rubbing his hands together as another approaches the Dark Side!!!

I'll add that even El Cheapo (me) is looking at a Dac, the SMSL Sanskrit 6th gen. $104 and with a hack I can roll dual op amps. (now that right there is fun)
Ron

[BobEllis]

Another round of Obbligato caps ordered to satisfy the Dark Lord's directive. I'm curious, so I'll leave the crossovers external for a bit and switch see if I can hear a difference between caps in the first shunt position. My Modi Multibit DAC will arrive next Tuesday. Hopefully the balance of the caps from audiohobby will arrive soon, too.

[JonMarsh]

Those guys are amazing on turn-around at HiFi Collective. Got a batch of caps that shipped out today, ordered late yesterday. Scheduled delivery is before 10:30 AM tomorrow morning...

[BobEllis]

Mine were ordered around 8 pm last night, shipped today and will be here tomorrow afternoon. It's a little slower getting to the boonies.

The last tracking info I have on the other caps is they left Estonia on August 10th by mail. There wasn't a faster option. If it takes too long I will just place another order with Hi Fi Collective and hope I can find another use for the caps in the late group.

[Renron]

Off Topic and letting off some steam. I answered a question about bypassing a cap on DiyAudio and was immediately flamed and roasted by even a Moderator for my ignorance. Now I remember why I don't go there too often. Jerks...
Sorry for thread drift. But being rude and not allowing (or hearing) alternative opinions sucks.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Off Topic and letting off some steam. I answered a question about bypassing a cap on DiyAudio and was immediately flamed and roasted by even a Moderator for my ignorance. Now I remember why I don't go there too often. Jerks...
Sorry for thread drift. But being rude and not allowing (or hearing) alternative opinions sucks.
Ron

Ron, it's a very common disease called "CAI", which of course is short for "Cranial Anal Inversion" ...... it can be very debilitating from what I understand. :B

[BobEllis]

Funny, DIY Audio once was pretty good about keeping the flame wars under control. There was a group of self proclaimed audio illuminati that were banned and formed their own site which never seemed to go anywhere productive.

Since I will have a variety of the proper value caps, I'll test and see what I like or if there is a difference. And anyone who disagrees with my conclusions must be a blithering idiot.

FEDEX was here while I wasn't, I will get my caps tomorrow. Taking a much needed day off my bike, to polish cabinets and start crossover assembly.

[Horio]

Really looking forward to hearing what you think about the sound of the BD02 Ardents with the new crossover Bob.

[JonMarsh]

Funny, DIY Audio once was pretty good about keeping the flame wars under control. There was a group of self proclaimed audio illuminati that were banned and formed their own site which never seemed to go anywhere productive.

Since I will have a variety of the proper value caps, I'll test and see what I like or if there is a difference. And anyone who disagrees with my conclusions must be a blithering idiot.

FEDEX was here while I wasn't, I will get my caps tomorrow. Taking a much needed day off my bike, to polish cabinets and start crossover assembly.

FedEx was here, but knocked softly- same result as you! UPS delivered, so I have 110uH Jantzen foil inductors from PE. Amazon also delivered, so I have cutting and polishing compound. Forgot I need another set of phenolic boards, ordered today. EMTECH Black lacquer shipped today.

Ball is moved further down the field....