Another Wavecor Ardent build

[Steve Manning]

Looking good Bob ....... does the epoxy bleed through give you any issues with finish or will it sand out ok? I know if you leave any glue on the surface of regular wood it typically shows up like a spot light.

[BobEllis]

I will find out shortly how differently the veneer takes the finish. I need some Goo Gone to try to remove the adhesive, sand the sample a bit and then I will brush on a bit of GF gloss. If it's an issue, I will apply another very thin coat of epoxy to seal. Easier and safer than trying to sand it off without going through the veneer, especially since it seems to be inconsistent bleed through.

It's surprising how much redder the wood is than the photograph.

EDIT: Here's the result with a single brushed coat of GF Gloss, light sanding with 100 grit that was on the sander to level the epoxy bleed through and I can't tell where the epoxy dry spots were. As the surface dries the blue tape residue becomes visible.



Why do some pictures taken in portrait get rotated to landscape?

RE-EDIT: OK, now the epoxy dry spots are visible. Guess it requires a skim coat of epoxy.

[TEK]

As long as you are not going to stain it in any way I guess you will be ok after adding a thin epoxy layer on top - as long as you get it even and flat enough...

[BobEllis]

That's the plan, TEK. No stain needed on this veneer. I plan to sand the epoxy back down so there's just enough to still seal the veneer. I guess if you're going with a veneer that you want to stain and using epoxy, stain first, then apply to the cabinet. Or use a dye in the resin to add the tint desired.

Speaking of removing epoxy, while I attempted to clean up runs there were still a few. I set a block plane to take a thin cut and started shaving the runs. I wasn't making much progress, barely taking a powder thin layer off. Set to cut a bit more aggressively. Now it's sticking. Apply more force and the BB top layer comes up with the epoxy. Lesson: Take your time removing excess epoxy. Abrasives probably work better than planes.

[Steve Manning]

I guess that might be one of the advantages of going with paper backed veneers, besides being easier to work with, for veneer rookies like me.

[BobEllis]

True, but the best looking veneers are sold raw, unless you want to pay the premium to have JWW flatten and back them.

[Steve Manning]

True, but the best looking veneers are sold raw, unless you want to pay the premium to have JWW flatten and back them.

Your right about that ....... I did not know he offered that as an option, something to keep in mind for the future. Do you know what he charges for that?

[BobEllis]

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Processing-from-Raw-Veneer-to-Paper-Backed-Veneer.html

[Steve Manning]

Thanks ..... cost is not too bad if you want to go that route.

[TEK]

That's the plan, TEK. No stain needed on this veneer. I plan to sand the epoxy back down so there's just enough to still seal the veneer. I guess if you're going with a veneer that you want to stain and using epoxy, stain first, then apply to the cabinet. Or use a dye in the resin to add the tint desired.

Speaking of removing epoxy, while I attempted to clean up runs there were still a few. I set a block plane to take a thin cut and started shaving the runs. I wasn't making much progress, barely taking a powder thin layer off. Set to cut a bit more aggressively. Now it's sticking. Apply more force and the BB top layer comes up with the epoxy. Lesson: Take your time removing excess epoxy. Abrasives probably work better than planes.

I would assume that is a task with some challenges. If you sand trough the epoxy some placed that will probably be noticabel trough the gloss finish.
I sanded between layers on mine and went trough. Doing so efficient ruin the finish as the spit where I sanded trough is lightning up as lighter gray areas comprred to the rest of the surface.
For me it showed very well, probably because I have a base layer of shellac that I assume was sanded away as well.
I will leve it as it is for now. Guess I will have to take it all down to raw veneer to adress the imperfections I have now - and if I try to do that the risk of sanding trough the veneer is quite large...
So for now I will leve it at that.

My impression is that when you get issues it's a high risk that any effort done to fix it might as well make it all worse - so ensuring a good ground work and a solid process from the start is important in my book.

[Renron]

Bob,
So sorry to hear of the troubles epoxy gave you. Like a pro you came back from disaster and figured out what went wrong. I salute you!
Ron

[BobEllis]

I would assume that is a task with some challenges. If you sand trough the epoxy some placed that will probably be noticabel trough the gloss finish.
I sanded between layers on mine and went trough. Doing so efficient ruin the finish as the spit where I sanded trough is lightning up as lighter gray areas comprred to the rest of the surface.
For me it showed very well, probably because I have a base layer of shellac that I assume was sanded away as well.
I will leve it as it is for now. Guess I will have to take it all down to raw veneer to adress the imperfections I have now - and if I try to do that the risk of sanding trough the veneer is quite large...
So for now I will leve it at that.

My impression is that when you get issues it's a high risk that any effort done to fix it might as well make it all worse - so ensuring a good ground work and a solid process from the start is important in my book.

The good news there is that the epoxy saturates from the bottom and almost gets complete surface coverage. Therefore a top coat of epoxy will likely saturate down to the epoxy from the bottom. Even the okoume that doesn't look saturated has a plastic feel to it. There was a piece of the first attempt at veneer that stuck. I removed it with a plane and just the first 1/64" or so was raw wood, after that it was epoxy and wood. So hopefully the finish will take evenly if I get down into the wood a bit.

Absolutely - surface prep and process are the keys to success. A lot of this was due to my impatience and not doing a test panel first.

Bob,
So sorry to hear of the troubles epoxy gave you. Like a pro you came back from disaster and figured out what went wrong. I salute you!
Ron

Thanks, Ron. It's a carry over from my flying days. Post flight debrief always included lessons learned, characterized as "Goods and others."

[BobEllis]

A couple of weeks delay due to a wedding, visiting Dad and a cold making me fuzzy, but finally some progress today. I'm pretty sure of my process, but still find I'm second guessing myself. I could have done this yesterday but didn't. I ensured that the veneer was completely dry before layup, although it still had some waviness. My big idea born of wondering how to avoid sanding through previous veneers: I added plastic around the sides not being glued to avoid having to sand the squeeze out.

I probably overdid the epoxy, but I don't want to have dry spots again. I placed the veneer on the back after applying epoxy to it and the back. Laid the plastic sheet over the veneer and used my veneer glue roller to spread out the epoxy before applying the cauls. Three layers of 5/8" particle board and a couple of 2x4s clamped with 8 Jorgenson HD bar clamps. I tightened from the center to the top and bottm and they've all got a decent bend. Should be a decent amount of fairly well distributed clamping pressure. I'm getting a fair amount of squeeze out rather evenly distributed. Hopefully that means the veneer is sitting flat against the cabinet. We'll see tomorrow morning. Room temperature is 78°F thanks to 1,000 W of halogen shop light. Another week delay coming up, as I'm heading to see my granddaughter to celebrate her first birthday.

Proof of progress.

[TEK]

Nice clamps - now we'll all wait for the result

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :rf xx) :alol:

[Renron]

Fingers crossed.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Success! Now I can relax while visiting my granddaughter. Enough epoxy bled through the veneer that I won't need to spray the finish until the weather gets warmer again. Although that could mean they never get sprayed...

[TEK]

Looks great!
Really looking forward to see the final result

Enjoy your visit at your grandaughter :-)

[BobEllis]

Thanks.

[Renron]

That freak maple looks fantastic.
Wow, that pumpkin patch has everything! Very nice pic.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron. I'm really happy with the way the veneer looks, as is my girlfriend.

Funny, my granddaughter takes after her mom in the hair department. My daughter didn't get or need a haircut until she was 5. A "Pumpkin Patch" in Las Vegas is a few hay bales in a mall parking lot, but my daughter is a decent photographer. Especially since her favorite subject knows how to turn it on for the camera.

[sdl2112]

That veneer looks great now, I can only imagine when finished :E. Maple is one of my favorites.

Veneering is an art I want to try sometime soon.

Very cute pic of your granddaughter.

[BobEllis]

Thanks. This is my first foray into raw veneer. A learning experience, to be sure. The next challenge is getting a bookmatch to hold together. I'm a little concerned that the epoxy bleed through will capture the veneer tape. If it does, I guess it will be careful sanding to remove it. I got the kind without holes to try to prevent epoxy locking it in place.

[Steve Manning]

Looking good Bob ..... glad the second go around did the trick ....... Granddaughter's a cutie by the way.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve.

[BobEllis]

Style question as I approach the sides. Should I do the bookmatch vertically or parallel to the edges of the cabinets? The veneer has some tiger striping in the short direction. Thoughts?

Laid out on the cabinet parallel and vertically

[JonMarsh]

I'd vote for parallel to the back edge of the cabinets, but what really counts is what YOU like!

[BobEllis]

Yeah, that's a problem. My girlfriend likes the seam vertical idea since the tiger stripes are a bit stronger than the photo shows, I have no strong preference. However, since she looked at it I've been playing with the layout, I get the best figure with the seam parallel - more of the wild burl less of the calmer area to the left in the picture. Guess I'll beg forgiveness. She wasn't that strong on the vertical idea.

[Steve Manning]

+2 on the parallel

[TEK]

Yeah, that's a problem. My girlfriend likes the seam vertical idea since the tiger stripes are a bit stronger than the photo shows, I have no strong preference. However, since she looked at it I've been playing with the layout, I get the best figure with the seam parallel - more of the wild burl less of the calmer area to the left in the picture. Guess I'll beg forgiveness. She wasn't that strong on the vertical idea.

Happy wife - happy life...

[JonMarsh]

Happy wife - happy life...

now there's a wise man...

[BobEllis]

Happy wife - happy life...

Yep, begging forgiveness hearkens back to my Navy fighter days. Discretion being the better part of valor, I showed her the way the heart of the burl pattern fits better on the parallel layout and she agreed. First side being glued up today.

[Renron]

+3 on the //
I made the mistake of telling my kids (early 20s at the time) that it was easier to get forgiveness than permission........ Doh!
Good luck Bob, please update with pictures for us.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

+3 on the //
I made the mistake of telling my kids (early 20s at the time) that it was easier to get forgiveness than permission........ Doh!
Good luck Bob, please update with pictures for us.
Ron

At least you waited for their twenties, you could have been in real trouble letting that slip in their teens 8O

[BobEllis]

My first ever attempt at bookmatching is in the clamps. Although there were a couple spots that wanted to overlap, I think I got them flat before the caul went on. We'll see tomorrow.

[BobEllis]

The bookmatch joint feels smooth, is tight for almost it's entire length (I had to look from 6" to see a gap) and the pattern is pleasing. Somewhat expected, the veneer tape absorbed epoxy. So much for being able to leave them in epoxy until the weather warms up. I'm going to have to sand down to the veneer to remove the tape. A bit of color difference between back and side that may just be the lighting.

Rough trimmed. Remnants of blue tape used to keep squeeze out from getting on the rest of the cabinet.

[Renron]

Wow, that looks really sweet. Beautiful Bob!

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron. It's even better than the small picture shows. These are three sequential sheets, so the figure on the side is as good as the back. I'll light better for the mission accomplished pictures.

Darned photo-bucket resizes the image, too. I thought I could link to a full resolution picture.

[Steve Manning]

Looking very nice Bob ...... that's going to look killer when you put finish on it.

[TEK]

Looking forward to see how these will look from the front after you are done.
You were using raw veneer with no paper backing, right? You can get those edges really good that way!

[CraigJ]

Bob,

Your speakers are going to be stunning and I love your veneer choice. You guys are killing me with your beautiful Ardent builds and I might even have to take a break from my current dipole builds.8O

Craig

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. The color won't change much since it's already epoxy saturated, but a nice smooth top coat will make the figure pop more. I'm at that stage where I sit and stare at it. Once I sand a bit, I'm sure I'll be stroking it a lot.

Yes, TEK, it's raw veneer. The edges look very tight. A benefit of the epoxy technique is the epoxy fills any spots that may have been slightly rounded by prep sanding. The squeeze out holds the veneer up flat against the caul, so even if the substrate isn't quite flat, the finished product is as flat as the caul.

Thanks, Craig. The veneer was a happy chance find at Joe Woodorker's store. I was looking for something mid toned with good figure that was affordable. This turned out to be what was available long enough that I would only have to bookmatch. I've caught the bug again. I'm looking forward to Spring when I'll be able to build a bunch more.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks, Steve. The color won't change much since it's already epoxy saturated, but a nice smooth top coat will make the figure pop more. I'm at that stage where I sit and stare at it. Once I sand a bit, I'm sure I'll be stroking it a lot.

Better watch out your girlfriend will get jealous ....... I guess with it being epoxy soaked like that, it's a good thing you staying natural on the color, I imagine they would probably not take stain very well at this point?

[BobEllis]

Correct, staining would be impossible. I could have added some dye to the epoxy if the color needed changing. I've never been able to stain anything to my satisfaction, so I try to pick wood that meets my color needs without it.

[Steve Manning]

Correct, staining would be impossible. I could have added some dye to the epoxy if the color needed changing. I've never been able to stain anything to my satisfaction, so I try to pick wood that meets my color needs without it.

I guess that could be where paper backed veneer would be useful.