Another Wavecor Ardent build

[TEK]

Hmm, how much finish pr. coat? I'm not sure, and it will vary a lot dependent on your paint technik and how thick layers you put on. I usually mix for two or more coats.
Maybe 150-250ml for a quite thick stroke using the w-101? Ron can probably tell more about what to expect for consumption.
I think it also depends on the surface - you need quite little to cover a perfect surface (just enough to make it flow out nicely), but I have much grain marks (still) causing me to burn trough more than normally needed...

When it comes to using several thanks I have noticed that water gathers only in the first thank, and that the second thank is always dry. As my air line to the paint gun goes from the second thank I think that must be a free bonus with that setup.
I also see a huge advantage in the gravity gun setup (cup on top) as you are able to use all paint until the last drop, and no issues with the gun slurpin up air before all the paint is used (the w-101 is very nice that way as you can turn the cup independent of the gun).

[BobEllis]

Thanks. Guess I'll buy two quarts of finish to ensure I have enough.

[TEK]

Added a layer of clear today. With the Iwata W-400 I used 300ml on 1 coat for both speakers. A lot of overspray tough. A HVLP gun would probably use quite a bit less...

[Renron]

Tek,
Is your gun a W400? or a W400LV?
I'm looking up pressure recommendations at the gun and the cap.
Ron

[TEK]

tek,
is your gun a w400? Or a w400lv?
I'm looking up pressure recommendations at the gun and the cap.
Ron

w400lv

[BobEllis]

Progress again. Baffles faceted, trimmed and ready to glue to the cabinets

[benthe8track]

Great work Bob they look fantastic!

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ben. It's a bit surprising how sharp the edges are. I have cut myself several times handling the baffles. Just minor cuts, but don't want blood stains.

[dar47]

Ah, lots of bamboo and your top facet is very tight to the tweet me likes.:T:T

[Renron]

Looks good Bob. Sharp edges means great cuts!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Ben. It's a bit surprising how sharp the edges are. I have cut myself several times handling the baffles. Just minor cuts, but don't want blood stains.

A dense "wood" product with high surface hardness (harder than Red Oak) will take a sharp edge; I'm always careful in handling the stuff, even just the base boards.

Looking good to me, they're coming along nicely! :T

[BobEllis]

A bit of a surprise, the baffles ended up weighing in about the same as the MDF baffles - 23.5 pounds. The rest of the cabinet weighs about 52 pounds using apsen ply instead of MDF for the 1/2" layer. After glue up, these are 9 pounds heavier than the Poor Man build (3/4" walls). Somehow I expected they would be much heavier. Not that it's easy to move a 75 pound cabinet, this will be colorful once I get the drivers and XO installed.

[BobEllis]

Learned something today. If I was doing this again I would use a power plane to cut the facets. The cabinet I was gluing when my son called with an emergency tapers to 11" wide at the base. After trimming the baffle flush the lower facet on one side was significantly smaller than the other. I marked out a facet to match the large one and needed to remove a wedge about 1/4" thick. Too much for the belt sander. Taking a very fine cut it was just a few minutes until the facets matched.

The other thing I learned is that if the baffle is four layers of bamboo planks you might just want to leave them showing. This is after a sealing coat of epoxy.



A buddy is allowing me to use his garage through the veneer stage. It's heated so my epoxy should set.

[TEK]

That looks very nice!
I understand very much if you keep the baffel as it is - it is looking very nice!
Will you veneer the back, sides and top then?

[BobEllis]

I have a bunch of really nice freak maple burl that I am going to cover completely. I didn't remove all the layout marks before applying the epoxy. Next time it will be natural.

[sdl2112]

Nice job on the baffles :T

[Horio]

Looking good Bob. If one was to build the entire box out of bamboo (at least the outermost lamination's) and put some finish on there, it wouldn't be a terrible looking box.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Horio.

No progress due to closing the summer camp this weekend, but I did get a spot of good news. I'd been grossly overpressuring my FLG-3 gun, feeding it as if it was the conventional gun rather than the HVLP model. After setting it to the proper inlet pressure I sprayed water on the side of the house in a nice set of 4'x1' swatches simulating the speaker, and barely got into the compressor running. I'll be able to use the gun I already have! http://www.devilbiss.com/portals/2/r...%20gravity.pdf

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Horio.

No progress due to closing the summer camp this weekend, but I did get a spot of good news. I'd been grossly overpressuring my FLG-3 gun, feeding it as if it was the conventional gun rather than the HVLP model. After setting it to the proper inlet pressure I sprayed water on the side of the house in a nice set of 4'x1' swatches simulating the speaker, and barely got into the compressor running. I'll be able to use the gun I already have! http://www.devilbiss.com/portals/2/r...%20gravity.pdf

That's great news! It's amazing how useful sorting out one critical detail can be!

You see, I know I'm not a painting specialist, so for me, the integrated Fuji solution has been a real boon, as it has taken very little adjustment or tweaking to get the best results of my life.

[Renron]

Fantastic news Bob! Glad you got that dialed in! Is it a Finish line or a Starting Line hvlp? Link was to a Finish Line.
Nozzle to sprayed object should be roughly 6"-8" away.

[BobEllis]

Yes, I had it right the first time I identified my gun. The current pricing threw me off. It's a finish line with the 1.3 mm tip that's apparently no longer offered. I guess that's what threw me. The extra good news is general finishes suggests a 0.050" tip for an HVLP gun with their gloss finish that I have coming.

Thanks for the tip, Ron.

[Renron]

Bob, Awesome, it just gets better and better! Hoorah!
Which GF product are you going to use / try out?

I really like both the WB and Solvent products from GF. Stir it gently, not vigorously, tiny air bubbles are formed and can last for hours suspended in the liquid. If they don't pop like blisters they will diffuse the light and dull the depth and clarity of the finish. Learned the hard way with the Old Target USL. Fantastic product but too many layers looks plastic. Acrylics tend to look blue(ish) to me when dry. Best thing about it was / is the burn in between coats and no witness lines if you sanded through the finish layers right until the base/stain.
I'm a big proponent of De waxed shellac between any base/stain coat and top coat. If using a water borne stain and a water borne topcoat the stain will redissolve into the top coat and muddy the finish, dulling the look of the grain. Shellac adds a bit of color warmth and is a natural product adhesion buffer. 2 thin coats are plenty, go thicker and it will fracture / crack / craze later. Yep, learned the hard way there too.
Finish line guns are best seller and well respected line in Auto / Aircraft paint industry.

[BobEllis]

I've purchased General Finishes' EF High Performance Polyurethane Top Coat-Gloss. I want to avoid solvents. I will stir gently, thank you. I might have shaken it without your warning.

The veneer doesn't need stain, in my opinion (driven by the way it looks as is and my experience with stains going muddy). I don't want the plastic look, so plan to apply the minimum required to get enough thickness to polish. Still haven't decided whether I'll bring it all the way back to gloss or stop at a satin finish. Given the temperatures, I will be looking at an off the gun finish for quite some time to allow it to completely harden. That will make hitting the finish with 400 grit to start polishing that much harder.

A beautiful fall day yesterday and I sanded the cabinets in preparation for veneer. I'd forgotten how much "fun" sanding epoxy can be. At least I didn't have too many runs or roller marks to smooth out. I used a cabinet scraper to remove the buildup around the driver cutouts and as much of the runs as I could. That saved a lot of sandpaper clogging. It won't be long before I see the veneer on the cabinet!

[Steve Manning]

Don't you love what you can do with a scraper .....

[BobEllis]

One of the best tool investments I've made.

[Renron]

2nd, on the scraper. I've used razor blades as scrapers on top coat runs. Works like a champ if your careful and slow.
Bob, that GF High Performance Polyurethane is great, and will preserve the natural color of your "Freak". The product being a "poly" and acrylic mixture, won't have the plastic look as a pure acrylic finish might. Don't worry about the "Blue" tint / cast, it MAY look like it has a blue cast when wet just after spraying, but it will dry water clear. It's a very high quality product , IMO.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron.

[BobEllis]

Well, the first veneer is in the clamps. I should have reverted to my aviation days and made a checklist. :x I was placing clamp 7 of 8 when I noticed that I didn't have the plastic sheet between my veneer and the caul. When I pulled the caul, some epoxy had bled through a couple of pinholes in the veneer but had not set. FWIW, my caul is a layer of 5/8" melamine, backed by 5/8" particle board backed by a couple of 2x4s on their sides. I should get fairly even pressure.

My girlfriend is very understanding, I am doing the veneering in our spare bedroom as the outside temperatures are too low to get the epoxy to kick off in a reasonable time. She's happy with the way the speakers look in our living room even "naked". (Phew! She said that she thought they might be way too big when I started building) TotalBoat epoxy has very little odor, at least to my nose. Less than nail polish. As soon as the flurry of activity calmed down the cat came to investigate.

It took a couple doses of veneer softener to get this burl close to flat. I decided to iron dry at least the first sheets just to get it moving more quickly. The result was a lot flatter than raw, with the waves easily flattened with finger pressure but not flat like a sheet of paper. I sure hope that that's flat enough. At least this time I didn't skimp on materials and have plenty for fixing mistakes. :roll:

[TEK]

I would advice against using iron-on method for large areas.
Iron-on causes a lot of movement and stress on the veneer (the heat causes it to shrink). In my case it caused a several quite large stress fractures in the veneer. Those are a bitch to fix.
Be especially careful if you have to reheat areas to create a better bound - thats when I got the larges stress fractures.
A lot of softener might cause you to be ok - but I will think serveral times before iron on large areas again.
For smaller areas, top, facets, edge banding and simular this is not a problem.

[BobEllis]

Sorry I wasn't clear, TEK. I'm not ironing on the veneer, just drying the softener with an iron to speed up the flattening process. The "Super-Soft Speed Drying Trick" near the bottom of http://joewoodworker.com/veneering/flattening.htm The veneer is adhered with epoxy.

I had a similar experience ironing on veneer. I won't do that again.

[Renron]

Bob, are you using JoeWW's veneer softener or some other brand? Did you get the roller / applicator tools as well?
Anyone else have experience with different brands of veneer conditioner?

Hmmm, maybe the peel and stick isn't such a bad idea? For a few bucks extra it can be applied to veneer purchased from JoeWW.
Buying the 3M peel and stick should make someone on this thread happy.

[dar47]

When buying full sheets it's definitely full proof and very flat. It can show tinny glue line on exposed joints though. If you want the easiest full proof method I would say this is it.

[BobEllis]

AARGH!! Twenty hours in clamps at 70°F resulted in no adhesion and the resin didn't fully cure. TotalBoat documentation isn't nearly as complete as what the Gougeon Brothers have on line for the West System Epoxies, so that resource turned up some likely sources of my problem. Lack of curing is probably due to inadequate mixing. I made some filler after veneering that cured rock hard, but the attempted bond coat was stirred quickly and laid down.

Two likely sources for lack of adhesion: Not enough resin. It bled through the veneer pretty significantly and there wasn't much left in between veneer and cabinet; Not adequately removing the amine blush. Although I sanded thoroughly, I did not know to remove the blush with water and a scotchbrite pad until reading WEST System documentation. Amine blush doesn't form until the resin is nearly cured, so if starting again I would saturate and bond veneer in one step. Apply a saturation coat to both the cabinet and the veneer then clamp it.

I also need to get the veneer flatter than I did. Although the surface was glue starved, there were areas that didn't seem to go flat even with the caul clamped tightly. Since there is a bit more surface prep involved, I will use the traditional flattening procedure. Yes, Ron, I am using JWW's Super-Soft, but apparently didn't use enough.

This is the top surface of the veneer after being peeled off the cabinet. Note the resin bleed through.



The bottom side looks like I generally had good glue contact, except for an area on the top where I hadn't flattened enough. I'm going to get more clamps...



Making your JWW veneer peel and stick isn't that cheap, in my book. Burl in the quantity needed would have added $250 to the cost. It would make life easier, though. Hey, we are learning.

[Steve Manning]

AARGH!! Twenty hours in clamps at 70°F resulted in no adhesion and the resin didn't fully cure. TotalBoat documentation isn't nearly as complete as what the Gougeon Brothers have on line for the West System Epoxies, so that resource turned up some likely sources of my problem. Lack of curing is probably due to inadequate mixing. I made some filler after veneering that cured rock hard, but the attempted bond coat was stirred quickly and laid down.

Two likely sources for lack of adhesion: Not enough resin. It bled through the veneer pretty significantly and there wasn't much left in between veneer and cabinet; Not adequately removing the amine blush. Although I sanded thoroughly, I did not know to remove the blush with water and a scotchbrite pad until reading WEST System documentation. Amine blush doesn't form until the resin is nearly cured, so if starting again I would saturate and bond veneer in one step. Apply a saturation coat to both the cabinet and the veneer then clamp it.

I also need to get the veneer flatter than I did. Although the surface was glue starved, there were areas that didn't seem to go flat even with the caul clamped tightly. Since there is a bit more surface prep involved, I will use the traditional flattening procedure. Yes, Ron, I am using JWW's Super-Soft, but apparently didn't use enough.

This is the top surface of the veneer after being peeled off the cabinet. Note the resin bleed through.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24620[/ATTACH]

The bottom side looks like I generally had good glue contact, except for an area on the top where I hadn't flattened enough. I'm going to get more clamps...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24622[/ATTACH]

Making your JWW veneer peel and stick isn't that cheap, in my book. Burl in the quantity needed would have added $250 to the cost. It would make life easier, though. Hey, we are learning.

Bob, sorry for the pain ........ you might be on to something with the quick mixing. I watched a video yesterday on Total Boat epoxy and they mentioned the more mixing the better.

An idea for you on the flattening part ...... what about a layer or two of mdf with packing tape applied to stop sticking, laid over the entire surface. Add a few 2"X4"'s on top for clamping ...... kind of a massive caul? It would certainly give you more even pressure over the entire surface?

That's some nice looking veneer though ....... it will look sweet when you get the bugs worked out and everything glued the way you want!

Steve

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve.

As I think about it, it seems a compounding of errors, inadequate mixing being one of them. I rushed mixing based on a long ago experience with boat work on a hot day. I remembered barely being able to get the resin on the boat before it gelled. Ten to fifteen degrees cooler and out of direct summer sun, I have plenty of time. DOH! I was too worried about squeeze out running down the sides of the cabinet and didn't use enough epoxy. Another possibility is inadequate drying of the veneer while ironing. The tackiness of the epoxy is gone just a couple hours after separating the parts.

I think the lack of flattening was being stingy with the flattener. Since I have time now, I will apply heavily and see how that goes with a couple of test panels. Multiple layers of caul with 2x4s was already in the plans. Great minds...

The veneer is even better looking in person. I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished. I have enough to do matching surrounds, another couple of subs and a new equipment rack. She said she was tired of dark furniture.

[TEK]

I used Peel-and-stick veneer on my subs. Usualky that also means that the veneer is paper backed, and straight/flat as a it can be. Laying down that veneer was so incredible easy. But it does add quite a bit to the cost, at least for burl veneer.
But you do also get veneer that is just ready to apply. Compared to my raw burl veneer - that is a lot of difference.
The largest problem with backed veneer is that you will get visible joint lines.
For the ardent that is possible to solve almost perfectly by using raw veneer for the facets and paper backed for the rest of the speaker.

Raw veneer is in my book a lot harder to use that paper backed/peel-and-stick, but quite a bit cheaper.
And hey! If the experience and learning is what we want to archive then the harder it is the better ;-)

[Steve Manning]

The veneer is even better looking in person. I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished. I have enough to do matching surrounds, another couple of subs and a new equipment rack. She said she was tired of dark furniture.

Lucky man .... should keep you busy for a while with all that in the works.

[BobEllis]

Yes, I'll be busy. Thinking I need a vacuum press come Spring...

[Steve Manning]

Yes, I'll be busy. Thinking I need a vacuum press come Spring...

Sounds like ...... I know Joe Woodworker carries kits, they seemed to be pretty decent from what I recall when I visited his shop some years back.

[BobEllis]

Amine blush was at least part of the adhesion problem. Rub down with a dry ScotchBrite pad didn't net much, but as soon as I wet it there was a lot of stuff coming off the surface of the other cabinet (so I know it wasn't from the failed bond's epoxy). Letting the surface dry while I go out and buy more heavy duty clamps and then I will attempt to bond some oakume backer veneer to the cabinet. It's very inexpensive and will allow me to prove my veneering technique without wasting the burl. The sheet of burl that didn't bond's epoxy has set with almost no epoxy remaining on its surface. I didn't think it would absorb nearly as much as it did. Assuming all goes well I will apply burl tomorrow.

The JWW vacuum press kit is how I plan to go, Steve. Might be able to find most of the parts less expensively locally, but it sure will save time.

[Steve Manning]

Amine blush was at least part of the adhesion problem. Rub down with a dry ScotchBrite pad didn't net much, but as soon as I wet it there was a lot of stuff coming off the surface of the other cabinet (so I know it wasn't from the failed bond's epoxy). Letting the surface dry while I go out and buy more heavy duty clamps and then I will attempt to bond some oakume backer veneer to the cabinet. It's very inexpensive and will allow me to prove my veneering technique without wasting the burl. The sheet of burl that didn't bond's epoxy has set with almost no epoxy remaining on its surface. I didn't think it would absorb nearly as much as it did. Assuming all goes well I will apply burl tomorrow.

The JWW vacuum press kit is how I plan to go, Steve. Might be able to find most of the parts less expensively locally, but it sure will save time.

Your probably right about the parts ...... If you've got a good hardware store around you would be set. As I recall of my visit with Joe he had one section of his shop that pretty much looked like the plumbing section at Lowes with all the fittings. McMaster Carr might also be a good place to go for parts.

[BobEllis]

Hey, after the service and great product I got from JWW, I'm happy to support him and it saves me time.

That was interesting. The first time I used a single pump each of resin and hardener, since I was able to cover the entire cabinet with about 6 pumps each. Two pumps were barely enough to get a film on the surface of the oakoume veneer. I mixed up a third pump to wet the cabinet surface. I'm getting a little squeeze out, but not much. There was enough surface stickiness that I could press the veneer into the glue and it stayed in place. The caul is 3 layers of 5/8" melamine topped with 2x4s clamped with 8 HD Jorgenesen (5/4" flat) bar clamps and a half dozen Irwin "Heavy Duty" bar clamps. If the Jorgensens are rated at 1,000 pounds and I'm getting a 1/4" bow in the bar over 20" that's pretty close to maximum clamping pressure, right? That would mean I'm getting close to vacuum bag total pressure, although not quite as evenly distributed.

We'll see what tomorrow brings after it's had its time in the clamps.

EDIT: Mixed for two minutes and at the same 74°F the epoxy has gelled in two hours. Much more quickly than last time. Inadequate mixing was another issue.

[Steve Manning]

Sounds like that setup ought to keep things nice and flat 8O, I'm keeping track of what your doing. I have yet to work with raw veneer, I've only worked with paper backed so far. When I do get around to trying it I can follow your recipe without having to go through all the pain

[BobEllis]

I'm here to help. That really is the point of documenting the build in this level of detail. Not to mention, doing it publicly keeps me moving forward.

It seems like conventional glues would be easier. I'm going to have to glue up a small test box to see if/how badly the BB end grain telegraphs. Epoxy may be a belt and suspenders approach.

I also had to test JWW's assertion that using blue tape for bookmatching veneers results in a mess that you can't get out of the wood. I glued up a small test panel and will report back tomorrow when it has cured.

[BobEllis]

Success! The oakoume veneer is firmly and smoothly attached and the epoxy cured. There are a couple of defects, caused by the topside of my melamine shelf caul. I'm pretty sure I had it smooth side down, but there are some signs of the cuts from when it was used as a sacrificial board when routing the drivers cutouts. OK, a bit of sanding and buy a new shelf and I'm good to go. Surprising amount of bleed through.



As for the blue tape experiment, I'm going to buy veneer tape. A putty knife sharpened like a scraper took the tape off in moments, but the adhesive remains. I wasn't doing a bookmatching attempt, I just cut the piece in half and butted the ends together. The JWW veneer saw cuts vertically to the left and bevels to the right, so that's why the seam is so obvious. I was trying to find a worst case, how much will the epoxy bleed through the seam. It turns out the epoxy bled through the veneer face more where there wasn't tape. Go figure. There is a benefit to that, no sealing required, just remove the amine blush, sand smooth and spray topcoat.

Another interesting part of this experiment was that the veneer had not been flattened but it flattened completely in the clamps. Still planning to soften/flatten before adhering the good stuff, but at now feel comfortable going with the iron drying method.