Another Wavecor Ardent build

[BobEllis]

I don't think you'd keep the epoxy out even with paper backing. I did NOT apply epoxy to the outer faces, it made it's way through 20 mils of veneer. Perhaps stain before applying.

You could use PSA/contact cement with paper backed veneer on an epoxied substrate. Joe Woodworker doesn't seem to like PSA very much since it never gets hard and may creep.

[Steve Manning]

I don't think you'd keep the epoxy out even with paper backing. I did NOT apply epoxy to the outer faces, it made it's way through 20 mils of veneer. Perhaps stain before applying.

You could use PSA/contact cement with paper backed veneer on an epoxied substrate. Joe Woodworker doesn't seem to like PSA very much since it never gets hard and may creep.

The only time I've stained a veneer I had used Joe Woodworkers, Heat Lock glue and that was with paper backed and that turned out well. I have not used epoxy for veneering, so I don't have a feel for it, though it seems from what your experiencing you have to take bleed through into account for your finishing plans.

[BobEllis]

Yes, expect bleed through. Since the epoxy thing all started with the Gougeon Brothers boatbuilding W.E.S.T. System - (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique), it's not surprising to get bleed through. I'm using TotalBoat, Jamestown Distributors' version of the same stuff.

I went with epoxy to seal the edges of my BB, which forced me into epoxy to adhere the veneer. When it comes time to make the equipment rack I will use JWW's Better Bond since there will be no end grain veneered. I'm going to try a small test box just to see how badly end grain shows through veneer.

[Steve Manning]

I'm thinking about giving Better Bond a try myself. I had some bubbling issues when I used Heat Lock when I did my equipment rack. Though I expect I had some surface prep issues I realized "after" I was done, that probably contributed to my problems, I found having to iron such a large surface a bit of a pain.

[dar47]

Looking great Bob.:T

I'm surprised with the comment of Joe not liking PSA unless he means slippage with joining 2 pieces of veneer on a substrate. If your using say 4'x8' sheets and whole pieces, there is no meaningful slippage with a little overhang of the veneer. On my stuff the glue on the over hang of a piece went rock hard after air contact in an hour. Maybe there are different kinds of PSA but I didn't experience soft glue with the 3M stuff. It was so easy to work with. Only thing that would make it perfect for speaker building would be if you could get it in say 5mm paper backing that way you wouldn't see any paper at corners at all.

[TEK]

I used psa backed veneer on my subs.
First of all, it's extremly easy to apply compare to raw veneer. 100% flat, no gluing to apply, no wrinkles and so on.
I did however experience that "something" happend on the edges where the veneer sheets met. I'm not sure what caused it, but there occured a small "gap" between the veneer where the edges of the top and sides met.
It might have been some small shrinkage of the veneer after it was applied and cut to size.
I have not experienced the same with raw veneer (bit I have had ALL sort of other issues with the raw veneer ;-)

[BobEllis]

I guess every method has its advantages and disadvantages.

[BobEllis]

Here's a shot of the two bookmatched sheets held together with blue tape on the back. This is the best image of the figure I've been able to get so far.

The joint is better than yesterday because I used 2x4s on edge to clamp the straight edge down on the veneer. Note for future raw veneer projects. The first attempt wandered a bit when the straight edge flexed. I also paid more attention to keeping the saw vertical. Tough to do with the sizes of the saw and my hands. I guess I won't be able to use the whole blade, but that's OK.

[Renron]

I'm sure I'll be stroking it a lot.

ARCHER ! Phrasing!!!
Bob, that book match sure is beautiful. Excellent job.
The best way to apply stain is with a spray gun. No question about it. You can control how much is applied extremely easily. You COULD (but why?) add a tint to the top coat to change the tone of the wood. Won't highlight the grain like a true stain would though.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Oh, boy. I stepped in it, forgetting that everyone is parsing everything we say looking for the unintended embarrassing meaning. I even missed Steve's meaning.

Thanks for that hint, Ron. I'll keep it in mind for future projects. Too late for this one, but I'm happy with the color and grain definition under the epoxy.

[Steve Manning]

That's ok Bob, we'll keep you honest

[BobEllis]

Makes me feel like I'm back in a fighter squadron ready room..

[Steve Manning]

[SIZE=5]The best way to apply stain is with a spray gun. No question about it. You can control how much is applied extremely easily. You COULD (but why?) add a tint to the top coat to change the tone of the wood. Won't highlight the grain like a true stain would though.
Ron

I had always thought you had to come back and wipe the excess stain off? So what your describing is almost like painting? Just letting the tint color the top coat and not the wood?

[Steve Manning]

Makes me feel like I'm back in a fighter squadron ready room..

Ah, the good old military days .....

[JonMarsh]

Here's a shot of the two bookmatched sheets held together with blue tape on the back. This is the best image of the figure I've been able to get so far.

The joint is better than yesterday because I used 2x4s on edge to clamp the straight edge down on the veneer. Note for future raw veneer projects. The first attempt wandered a bit when the straight edge flexed. I also paid more attention to keeping the saw vertical. Tough to do with the sizes of the saw and my hands. I guess I won't be able to use the whole blade, but that's OK.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24793[/ATTACH]

Looking forward to seeing this when it's finished.. but you know, it's really, really hard to capture what veneer looks like in imaging. I tried pretty hard with some of the photo's on my build, and some were better than anything of that type that I've done before, but they still don't do it justice. I bet these are going to look very, very nice! :T

[Renron]

Steve,
THE most consistent way to apply an even stain is with a spray gun. Be gentle with the amount and you don't have wipe it off later. Give it a few days or better a week, then a light coat of de-waxed shellac followed by whatever top coat you like. My cherry Thor speakers were done this way with an oil base stain. I used a water based top coat as the finish coat over DW shellac. Have been perfect for >8 years now.

Bob,
Was just having some fun, please don't think we are the word police. I got a good laugh out of it. One of the TV shows the wife unit and I like is Archer. Bumbling, drunken, no so secret agent that puts his foot in his mouth frequently. Funny adult humor. First few seasons the dialogue banter was so quick we would have to back it up to hear what was said because we were laughing so hard.
Glad it took you back to the "good 'ole days". Thank you for stepping up!
Ron

[BobEllis]

No worries, Ron. I was having fun, too. Just thinking how "news" outlets seem to parse everything a candidate says and if it can be taken out of context, watch out.

Stepping up? I was just having fun with Uncle Sam's toys. A 25 year old flying as a member of the World Famous Pukin' Dogs. What could be better?

Glory Days. Getting paid to do almost daily what most men would give a left precious body part to do just once.

[Steve Manning]

Cool thanks Ron

[Steve Manning]

No worries, Ron. I was having fun, too. Just thinking how "news" outlets seem to parse everything a candidate says and if it can be taken out of context, watch out.

Stepping up? I was just having fun with Uncle Sam's toys. A 25 year old flying as a member of the World Famous Pukin' Dogs. What could be better?

Glory Days. Getting paid to do almost daily what most men would give a left precious body part to do just once.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24795[/ATTACH]

Look at your bad self :T ...... I was a missile tech on this lady we carried a little bit bigger sticks

[BobEllis]

I get claustrophobic remembering my 3 days at sea on a boomer during ROTC summer training. You're a better man than I, Steve. Thanks for keeping the sunshine in the can.

[Steve Manning]

I get claustrophobic remembering my 3 days at sea on a boomer during ROTC summer training. You're a better man than I, Steve. Thanks for keeping the sunshine in the can.

Yeah it was a little cozy to say the least ....... lost track of time not seeing the sun for a couple of months at a stretch ..... could explain that nervous tick though 8O

[Steve Manning]

I wouldn't mind letting a little sunshine out of the can on those Isis idiots though .....

[BobEllis]

Sanding the epoxy bleed through to remove the veneer tape is a dusty, but easy project. I'm happy with the result.



The joint between back and side is pretty tight, too.



Time to get the other cabinet to this point while I mull over how to do the facets. I'm thinking band clamps.

[Steve Manning]

Looking good Bob ...... grain pattern matched up nicely at your joint.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. Joe Woodworker's step by step directions made it seem easy.

[Steve Manning]

He does have some helpful stuff on his site

[TEK]

Look really great!

Time to get the other cabinet to this point while I mull over how to do the facets. I'm thinking band clamps.

This is how avalon does it (go to 1min 45 sec into the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIjQSZ7tGQg

Might be a bit hefty for a DIY dough ;-)

[BobEllis]

Tooling costs would be a bit high. I like the heated platens, though.

[BobEllis]

TEK, that Avalon Acoustics video helped me in another direction. I had been doing my final veneer trimming with a sander. Taking everything outdoors to sand and then bringing it back in is tough on my back. After watching their man trimming with a knife I decided to give it a shot. It's a bit tough with epoxy, so I switched to a well sharpened block plane set to take a see through shaving. Perfect. All trimmed up and ready for the next side in less time than it took to move a cabinet outdoors to sand. Thanks.

[Steve Manning]

That looks a little scary with that knife in the video ...... I've used a chisel plane in the past that has worked pretty well, got to be sharp like you mentioned Bob.

[BobEllis]

I guess if you do it almost every day you get pretty good with a knife...

[Steve Manning]

So true ....

[sdl2112]

Bob, There is some really beautiful veneer work going on here :T. I hope you can capture the full effect for us when done.

[benthe8track]

TEK, that Avalon Acoustics video helped me in another direction. I had been doing my final veneer trimming with a sander. Taking everything outdoors to sand and then bringing it back in is tough on my back. After watching their man trimming with a knife I decided to give it a shot. It's a bit tough with epoxy, so I switched to a well sharpened block plane set to take a see through shaving. Perfect. All trimmed up and ready for the next side in less time than it took to move a cabinet outdoors to sand. Thanks.

I did the same thing, although I was a bit chicken with the knife so I got it close then finished with sanding block. Really like the veneer choice too.
Also Bob, please excuse me if I'm mistaken, but did you fly F-14s??

[BobEllis]

Thanks, SDL. Capturing the full effect may end up being a download from Photo-bucket or similar - this site compresses the image too much. The pictures look better as they come off the camera.

Ben, yes, that's a Tomcat behind me in post 152 with a couple of then new AIM-9Ls on each pylon and a quartet of AIM-7s in the tunnel. A fighter load, as opposed to the interceptor role with AIM-54 and tanks. I was a RIO. Lots of fun, but I doubt my body could tolerate it anymore.

[TEK]

TEK, that Avalon Acoustics video helped me in another direction. I had been doing my final veneer trimming with a sander. Taking everything outdoors to sand and then bringing it back in is tough on my back. After watching their man trimming with a knife I decided to give it a shot. It's a bit tough with epoxy, so I switched to a well sharpened block plane set to take a see through shaving. Perfect. All trimmed up and ready for the next side in less time than it took to move a cabinet outdoors to sand. Thanks.

Good to here it was of some use.
I jave used knife all along, find it quite easy - more and more as you do it sometimes.
Have to be careful to not take off to much, but it's usually quite easy and quite fast.
Mostly using sandpaper for rounding the edge a bit.
I assume you also round off the edge a bit? You di not want a racer sharp angle when adding paint - the paint will not have anything to grip onto on the edge (have tou ever seen a car with a really sharp angle?)

[BobEllis]

Yes, I will soften the edges a bit before finishing. That's a lesson I learned the hard way.

I can see a knife would be workable with more conventional glue but the hardness of epoxy makes it tough to cut without wandering. The plane was quick even though I was only removing very thin bits. In spots where blue tape was trapped by squeeze out it was 4-5 passes to get through the thickness of the tape.

[benthe8track]

Ben, yes, that's a Tomcat behind me in post 152 with a couple of then new AIM-9Ls on each pylon and a quartet of AIM-7s in the tunnel. A fighter load, as opposed to the interceptor role with AIM-54 and tanks. I was a RIO. Lots of fun, but I doubt my body could tolerate it anymore.

Wow that's unreal, both you and Steve Manning had infinitely cooler jobs than me haha.

[Renron]

Wow that's unreal, both you and Steve Manning had infinitely cooler jobs than me haha.

+1

Bob, any chance you were on the Enterprise Carrier?

On my last veneering I cut it close with an exacto knife, the blade on top of a credit card as a spacer. Cut from the backside. A small piece of mdf on the face to prevent tear out. Just enough left for a bent over edge with a block sander.
Tek's point about not having a sharp edge cannot be overstated enough. Brilliant! When the Top Coat dries it will pull away from the sharp edge. Sand-through just waiting to happen.

[Steve Manning]

I've also used a fine flat file for the final tweak, which I noticed them using in the video, that worked rather well, might be good with the epoxy?

[BobEllis]

Wow that's unreal, both you and Steve Manning had infinitely cooler jobs than me haha.

Everything gets old. There were a number of flights off the carrier when I took a book to read. Never got to the point that I avoided flying, though. I've also had more sustained adrenaline rushes on a bicycle. A buddy and I were riding on Mallorca and got to the top of a narrow twisty descent at the same time as a group of guys on cafe racer motorcycles. We held on to their wheels until the road flattened out around 3 miles later. The curve signs suggested 30 kM/hour, we were barely getting under 50 mph. There was a knee high wall between us a 500' drop in places. Big guys are great on downhills. If you're doing it right, a dogfight lasts under 30 seconds.

+1

Bob, any chance you were on the Enterprise Carrier?

On my last veneering I cut it close with an exacto knife, the blade on top of a credit card as a spacer. Cut from the backside. A small piece of mdf on the face to prevent tear out. Just enough left for a bent over edge with a block sander.
Tek's point about not having a sharp edge cannot be overstated enough. Brilliant! When the Top Coat dries it will pull away from the sharp edge. Sand-through just waiting to happen.

No, I wasn't stationed on Enterprise. I was across the pier when aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) for a its first deployment and made two deployments aboard USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) back when it was nearly new. Feeling old. When I was flying it was a point of pride that there weren't any Tomcats on display anywhere. They were too new for any to have reached the end of their service life. They've been gone almost 10 years now, except for the ones Iran manages to keep flying.

As mentioned, I learned the hard way on sharp edges, but it's good to remind anyone else looking to get a nice finish on veneer.

Using a file sounds like a good idea if I get any large squeeze out, Steve.

[BobEllis]

After playing around with some clamping ideas that would require several sets of hands to secure the cauls to the facets, I've decided that my best chance of success lies with vacuum bagging. I've got some ideas that won't require the entire cabinet to be bagged. I will document when the time comes.

Joe Woodworker is getting more of my money. I've ordered parts for a continuous run system. I plan to use an old bar refrigerator compressor as my vacuum pump. It's hard to tell how much airflow I can expect from the compressor. If that doesn't work well enough I will buy a proper vacuum pump. JWW orders usually arrive in 2-3 days, so I should have some vacuum bagging pictures to post this weekend.

[TEK]

After playing around with some clamping ideas that would require several sets of hands to secure the cauls to the facets, I've decided that my best chance of success lies with vacuum bagging. I've got some ideas that won't require the entire cabinet to be bagged. I will document when the time comes.

Joe Woodworker is getting more of my money. I've ordered parts for a continuous run system. I plan to use an old bar refrigerator compressor as my vacuum pump. It's hard to tell how much airflow I can expect from the compressor. If that doesn't work well enough I will buy a proper vacuum pump. JWW orders usually arrive in 2-3 days, so I should have some vacuum bagging pictures to post this weekend.

Cool - looking forward to hear about your experience with this!

[BobEllis]

My vacuum press parts have arrived and I have been playing with it. Initially I was going to use a refrigerant compressor to provide the vacuum, but thinking I might have to bag the whole speaker I bought a rotary vane vacuum pump. As Joe Woodworker promised, assembly of the continuous run system was quick and easy. I needed a run to the hardware store to get an adapter, a short length of threaded pipe and an elbow to reduce my pump's 3/8" pipe thread inlet to 1/4". The JWW kit uses a pump with a horizontal inlet. Inexpensive and easy to source. I was also wondering if I'd be able to source a means of connecting my refrigerant compressor's tube to a pipe thread.

Although I bought vacuum bag material and breather mesh from JWW, my first project was to laminate one of the bases for my speakers using a clothes storage bag. I installed JWW's bag stem in that. That went very smoothly. Pulled a little vacuum and released it to realign the parts, pulled the vacuum and waited an hour. I will be using vacuum pressing to laminate panels from now on.

Now to test my idea for clamping the facets without bagging the whole speaker. I bought Colormetrics Gray Putty Tape / Butyl Tape 1/8" x 1" x 30' taking a cue from the Gougeon Brother use of "Mastic Tape" in their molding work. Sorry, Hank, 3M Mastic tape was too expensive, so I found this which is typically used to seal windows and skylights. Two step test - 1 can I get it to seal the bag, and 2 is it reusable? It turned out to be surprisingly easy to seal the bag (in this case a strip of 3.5 mil plastic sheet). I laid an outline around the facet with enough room to run the strip of breather mesh to the top and simply pressed the sheet into it. The vacuum pump is quiet enough that it was easy to hear leaks. A light press and the leak stopped. No clamping required. I was thinking I might need a strip of wood clamped on top of the sealant. The tape is gooey, and does not release from the plastic but it comes up from the epoxy surface for the most part. It remains sticky enough to put down again and seal at least one more time.

I need to investigate how to remove the residue. If normal household cleaners don't do it, I'll try Goo-Gone or other solvent.

A couple shots of the bagged facet. Now to test whether a small overhanging bit of veneer will break if it extends a hair over the corners. You can see that the breather mesh wraps itself tightly around corners. I may need to make cauls for the facets. Then cut the veneer to size and glue up the first facets. Darned forum punished me for using my iPhone camera and rotates the pictures.



If you go with a vacuum pump system, JWW recommends a diaphragm or piston pump. My wallet wouldn't tolerate that in the size needed, so I got a rotary vane. JWW notes that they are somewhat less reliable in continuous operation. I plan to upgrade to a cycling system to address that. The other down side of the vane pump is that it discharges a mist of oil while in operation. It needs to be outside while running. Plan on extra vacuum hose. I tried to add a hose on the outlet, but wasn't able to identify the thread on my exhaust port - not quite 3/4".

[TEK]

Thanks a lot Bob.
Very interesting reading. I did not know that you would be able to use a vacuum press that way, buy just covering the covers.