Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build

[Renron]

Yes and No to the Crossover location.
I'm putting the Woofer XO on the inside, maybe attached to the backside of the base, I'll have to wait and see how things lay out. The mid and tweeter will be inside the base, exposed to the floor. If I want to tweak the XO later it will be easier to change out parts on the exposed underside rather than inside the speaker box.
Thanks for the complement on the cuts, I've had some practice with those kind of things. Not bad for a 25 year old Hitachi Slide saw!

It's cold here these days ~freezing every morning, the dog's look at their water dish funny. LOL. I won't be able to veneer my speakers until it warms up to the mid 70's, I'll work on what I can and wait for spring thaw to come.

[BobEllis]

Lookin' good, Ron. I know what you mean about weather limits. I'll probably assemble mine without finish once I get veneer on. At least I can work that indoors. I'm reduced to riding my bike indoors, too. Thesufferfest.com makes that bearable, but I'd much rather be outdoors.

[benthe8track]

I've almost finished the bases, Wood work is completed. I'm just waiting on the thin ABS plastic to "skin" the base. This will help prevent any damage when the vacuum smacks into the base of the speaker. ABS is very tough stuff and almost bullet proof.
Being a cheap SOB, I checked out the prices for a rubber base gasket, and did not want to pay $15+ per speaker for a sheet of rubber I was going to cut up anyway. I didn't want to use strips like window or door sealant because they always leak at the corners. I had recently gone to Michael's Crafts store to buy a foam sheet to be cut into a new turntable mat. Always trying something different, it's a disease most of us have. I thought the foam would be perfect for the gasket too, so I went back and purchased a couple of black ones to try out. Guess what? They were PERFECT! The down side is they cost me a total of $2.15 for both. What the heck, it's only money! I splurged and bought 2. They are a 1 mm closed cell rubber type foam that feels exactly like a speaker gasket provided by a manufacturer. Here are the pictures.

Edit; I may try a can of spray on Truck bed liner instead of the thin ABS sheet. Would be much easier. Any thoughts?

Good score on the gasket. That's basically what we used too, it was a closed cell foam; either from my car audio days or from my fab shop. It works great in any case.
I really like your idea for ABS on the sides of the base. We just have painted wood bases and I found when we moved they got beat up enough to be noticeable (to me anyways, you know how it is).
Could give it the BobEllis treatment with epoxy? I think you want something tough that doesn't have to be as nice because you can't really see it.

[TEK]

Lookin' good, Ron. I know what you mean about weather limits. I'll probably assemble mine without finish once I get veneer on. At least I can work that indoors. I'm reduced to riding my bike indoors, too. Thesufferfest.com makes that bearable, but I'd much rather be outdoors.

Hmm, beeing a little ... there ;-)

Me, or maybe it was my neighbor ;-), run the bike several miles to work every day trough the norwegian winter :-P

[BobEllis]

When I was under 30 I'd commute to work on my bike down to 25F. That was about an hour, barely keeping fingers and toes from frostbite. I know better now. I will ride outside at 45F if there isn't much wind. Besides, it's skinny tires only so no riding with that white junk around.

[Renron]

Could give it the BobEllis treatment with epoxy?

I think this "Ellis Epoxy" thing could stick! Ba - Dum - Ching !

Tek wins, With Ben and his Dad coming in a close second with Bob being smart indoors.

This really is a great forum. All good folks.
Ron

[Renron]

Today's update,
I finished (almost) one of the woofer crossovers. They will live inside the cavity below the woofers. Attached top of the base. All other XO parts will be installed underneath the base. I had some capacitors left over from previous builds and wanted to use them instead of buying new ones. At least as good quality as a Cross Cap. The // resistors are power resistors mounted on an aluminum heat sink, measured and paired.
Ron

[TEK]

How is stuff going Ron?

[Renron]

Tek,
Thanks for asking! I'm slowly building up my Crossovers and waiting for warmer weather to veneer my speakers. Meanwhile..................
I'm trying (and failing) to understand how to measure drivers / speakers with Arta. I've got all the hardware but I'm too stuuupid (jk) to figure it out. Lots of reading before any hands on work.
I've purchased some drivers which work well together and I want to build a center channel for my HT. Very similar to the Finialist Center Channel drivers.
(2)Dayton RS-225-8, (2)Tang Band W4-1337sdf, Dayton RS-28f. I got the Tang Band drivers almost free, even though they are a little different from the ones the Statements use, I think I can make them work.

Back to Ardent talk. I've been looking into different finishes and have had a cabinet maker recommend a Marine coating. Awl-Grip Clear coat. Auto clear coats are at the top of my list.
Tek, which "clear filler" did you use under the Glasurite?
Ron

I need to learn how to measure drivers so I can start to design a crossover. I'm OK with tweeking until I like the sound.

[TEK]

Hi Ron

I'm not 100% sure (still at work), but I think it was this one: http://www.glasurit.com/uk/glasurit-...sparent-sealer. I will double check when I get home.
However, it's more of a sealer than a filler. I should have used a wood filler or something like that first to close all the pores before starting to add filler. I do have some areas that are a good bit away from perfect.

Maybe egg white, super glue or epoxy first would have been a good idea? I think veneer, especially raw veneer with errors, are the most difficult surface I have ever worked on. If you mess up your kindof fu**ed. You cannot sand it down, because the you might sand trough. You cannot just add more because then it might not be transparent enough. You can not add filler because it's not transparent enough and so on. So, you better get that ground work good ;-)
In that regard color is A LOT easier to work with. If you mess up you just fix it and add another coat.

[ergo]

Renron, try

http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/ARTA%20Handbook%20Version%202.4%20English.pdf

http://audio.claub.net/tutorials/FR%20measurement%20using%20ARTA.pdf

This one is not directly ARTA based but also quite a good source for describing 'speaker design and measurement process' and theory.

http://www.kirchner-elektronik.de/en/photo-story/

If you run into something specific with ARTA ask away. I've used it since it was a v1 freeware

[Renron]

Ergo,
Thank you VERY much for the links, I will read them today. Your assistance is greatly appreciated.
I'm a visual / auditory learner, some folks are better with written tutorials.

What do most people use to hold the driver under test? Plywood panel,? Or is it best to hang it free air? A little off topic for this thread, but I'm OK with thread drift as long as it's speaker related.
Ron

[Renron]

Jon,
Any chance you might have some spare time in the future to design the XO for the SS 12MU/4731 midwoofer? Didn't want to bother you while you were moving and during the Christmas holiday / New Years seasons.
I'm looking forward to the weather warming up so I can start on my Sapele Pomelle Veneer, Bob and I are waiting anxiously for Mother Nature to co-operate! It was 68* yesterday. Almost there!
Thanks,
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Yes- I've been working on that, I measured it, published it, then haven't been able to find the files.

But this morning I found them, after going through a few more possibilities. ops: So this will be coming soon- no later than the end of next weekend, or you guys can do what Trump would do, and say "You're Fired!"

There is so much stuff going on now, and that is just at work- a critical customer program evolving over two years supported by other people was just dumped on me because it's become quite urgent- I'm the guy they bring in at times when the HQ guys aren't getting results.

So sit tight, now that my intermittent search for these files has paid off, I'm on the right track.


(PS, in a conference call last Friday on a different topic and issue that has been unraveling was in process, my manager asked me if I wasn't in a TGIF mood, and glad it was Friday finally- I said, "Sure, I'm really glad it's Friday, that means there are only two more days to work this week!" :W That wasn't quite the answer he was expecting, but then I gave him a quick recount of a number of issues... (plus there are two invention disclosures I'm working on now...)

It's been one of those years so far... I'm actually beginning to wonder if I have't bit off a little more at times than I can truly chew! But I figure it's better to beaver away at the work than ponder my angst or belly button. :B

[Renron]

Thank you Jon.
You are the man, doing the work of 10.
I'm starting to think you like it that busy. Keeps those neurons firing.

On our home front, the wifee unit and I, finished designing the floor plans and layout of our new house. Paid and had the well inspected on the 5 acres we purchased, sweet water btw, then started the submittal process for the county planning agency (ies). Now come to find out, we will have to pay over $100,000 in fees (taxes really) just to have our plans reviewed! That's before any ground is disturbed! No lie, there really is a tax for disturbing the ground..........................
I think we'll start looking at homes to remodel. $100K can build a very nice Home Theater and Kitchen update. Sheesh!

Ron

[TEK]

over $100,000 in fees (taxes really) just to have our plans reviewed!

That's insain Ron!
Sorry to hear about your problems - hope it works out for you!

[JonMarsh]

Thank you Jon.
You are the man, doing the work of 10.
I'm starting to think you like it that busy. Keeps those neurons firing.

On our home front, the wifee unit and I, finished designing the floor plans and layout of our new house. Paid and had the well inspected on the 5 acres we purchased, sweet water btw, then started the submittal process for the county planning agency (ies). Now come to find out, we will have to pay over $100,000 in fees (taxes really) just to have our plans reviewed! That's before any ground is disturbed! No lie, there really is a tax for disturbing the ground..........................
I think we'll start looking at homes to remodel. $100K can build a very nice Home Theater and Kitchen update. Sheesh!

Ron

[/SARCASM] Gee Ron, you don't live in California do you? The town I used to live in has/had a development fee base like that back in 2000- $100K to get the paper work going on building anything anywhere. [/SARCASM-OFF]

That is why older homes in Danville are so popular (the Danville slums as my GF calls them) - yeah, even unimproved ones from the 50's sell for 650K and up, but then there are ways to game the local building ordinances, by keeping some bare minimum of the outline of the original floor plan, and from that they basically build a new home, extending out backwards usually. And by Build, I mean upgrading the foundation, completely re-doing the front walls (but staying on the original location) redoing the roof totally to a modern height and insulated attic, totally revamping the garage, etc. But it's still considered a "remodel". You can do a hell of a lot for $250K on a job like that, and wind up with a place worth a million and a quarter, easy, at local prices. And for the most part, it's all new, except the water and electricity hookups!

[JonMarsh]

Thank you Jon.
You are the man, doing the work of 10.
I'm starting to think you like it that busy. Keeps those neurons firing.

On our home front, the wifee unit and I, finished designing the floor plans and layout of our new house. Paid and had the well inspected on the 5 acres we purchased, sweet water btw, then started the submittal process for the county planning agency (ies). Now come to find out, we will have to pay over $100,000 in fees (taxes really) just to have our plans reviewed! That's before any ground is disturbed! No lie, there really is a tax for disturbing the ground..........................
I think we'll start looking at homes to remodel. $100K can build a very nice Home Theater and Kitchen update. Sheesh!

Ron

Ron, we've got good news, and other news. :W The good news is I have all the files together in one nice cozy spot. The other news, is that this crossover redesign just became a bit of a learning project and guinea pig (not the same thing as a pig with lipstick) as I've come across a new crossover design program written by a guy in Finland, and you know what a sucker I am for northern European technology.




Aren't those nice colors and graphs? I already have it downloaded for my new Dell XPS 4K laptop and my trusty 2010 Mac Pro (also running WIN10). The weird thing, is that in some ways, it's more like LSPCAD 5 on steroids than LspCAD6. that is, it doesn't have a free form schematic editor. But implements filter blocks you string together. However, it looks like doing the Wavecor Ardent is no problem.

Now, here's the groovy part- it handles up to 5 ways, but it can use the extra driver and filter slots in clever ways. I.E., one can have two different versions of midrange, for example, with the same woofer and tweeter section, and with a click switch and compare.

I think you see the utility to that for what we need to do here.... :W :B

So we'll be able to easily compare the C79 and 12MU4731 implementations.

[Renron]

Oh that is so cool! Thank you Jon. I knew I could bribe you with dog treats. ;D
OTOH, sorry you have one more thing to tackle. Busy , Busy Man.
I can only imagine how fantastic that rainbow waterfall looks on a 4K monitor. Stunning. I've never seen one arch in the beginning like that before.
Those graphs are very easy to read, even for a Uber novice like me. I'm proud to be nominated as the Ardent Guinea Pig. I consider it an honor. (not sarcasm)
"So we'll be able to easily compare the C79 and 12MU4731 implementations." When completed, I'm bringing them to your house for a stereo "Mano a Mano" comparison too.
With your permission of course. I'll beg later.
It will be very interesting to hear the leap in SQ between the two.
Thanks again Jon, for myself and the audio community, thank you for your contributions.

As per his website, "Maximum 15 filter blocks per way". Jon, we all know how you are with XO design.......... You don't have to use all 15.

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Nah, I should keep it down to 10 or 12 this time- just to be reasonable! :B

[JonMarsh]

Well, it's looking doable- a little more flexibility than I thought at first, too...

This is just the "standard" Wavecor Ardent. First step, correlation.

[BobEllis]

Slightly off topic, Jon. I'm building my Ardents with a standard top end but -02 woofers. Unless and until you get a chance to try out the -02s in your Ardents and see if it will take more than a mid and tweet padding adjustment I plan to go active on the low crossover doing my best to duplicate those transfer functions in a miniDSP and passive on the upper. Looking at the transfer functions I think I need about 2 dB of padding on the tweeter relative to the midrange depsite their 4 dB rated sensitivity difference. In the midrange crossover, I'd leave out the series capacitors, parallel inductor and the 5 and 11 ohm resistors while adjusting the tweeter L-pad. Is that right? It looks like I should be able to use my Pass AJ clone on the top end and one of my bigger amps on the bottom.

[JonMarsh]

That should probably do what you want. do you have any measurement capability? how well do your amps track for gain? will you just dial it in by ear? (one can do worse)

How soon will you be ready to try this? I can model the changes in the midrange crossover and tweeter crossover and confirm the behavior.

Bigger question- how are you going to do a modified LR3 in the MiniDSP- do you think you can fudge that, too? Have you tried approximating the filter transfer functions? does the software plot those out for you?

One thing you could do, having two amps, (and ignoring the mini-DSP for now) is build it all passive, hook up the Low pass crossover and driver to one amp, the high pass to midrange and tweeter to the other, and just adjust them amp gains or volume to each amp. (last resort... if you have any difficulties getting the mini-DSP working the way you expect.

[BobEllis]

Yes, I have measurement capability with a calibrated EMM-6.

MiniDSP will do third order electrical filters. High and low pass corner frequencies are set separately so I should be able to spread them enough and get an "LR3" result. The software plots the resulting response including measured driver response although it's not a very high resolution display.

I'd considered the passive biamp solution but the prospect of changing out $400 in resistors when the design is tweaked for the -02 isn't enticing. It's an option if the MiniDSP doesn't work, though. I'd like to get it properly built with a passive X0 so I can start working towards a good DAC. Probably won't be able to go higher than a Schiit YGGDRASIL, but it's nice to dream.

I'm not terribly close to hooking things up. It probably will be another month or so before I get to finish my cabinets. Keep it back burner. It just seemed like an opportune time to ask the question. Thanks for your support.

[JonMarsh]

OK- back to Renron and the 12MU4731.

I think we have something workable here- one thing I was somewhat concerned about was handling a 4 ohm driver instead of nominally 6-8 ohm, and keeping the impedance reasonably high- but I think we've got that licked.

For reference, here's the scaled smoothed measured data for the 12MU/4731, as measured in a cabinet with the same width as we're working with in the Ardent, in Vituix.




I setup another way in the same project file, and just turned off the original midrange. But, I could also copy the original midrange network into the new way, so this saved time getting started.

I aimed for both good smoothness but also a mild mannered impedance curve, which imposes some limits...



note how the impedance is pretty much nailed at 5 ohms for most of the midrange band. I think I deserve at least a nice latte for achieving that! :W


Mid polarity inverted, and all looks as expected...




Part list-



Note, the component numbers have NOTHING to do with the original Ardent component numbers- it uses a built in forced component designator numbering, just like LspCAD 5, and one can't alter it. (at least, not that I've discovered).

Woofer and tweeter networks are as per normal Ardent practice- only the midrange is changed.

Note, while one can export frequency response, impedance, directivity index, some other graphs, you can't export a text parts list. Think that could be improved a bit. No way to print it, either. In fact, this program doesn't have a print command- the only way to get data out besides writing it down is screen capture. Still, I'd say it works pretty well, and is well worth the modest price.

Note, these are fairly high resolution screen captures, if you click on the image, it should take you to flickr, where you can save the full resolution version, not what may be showing on your monitor (which may not look like what's showing on my 5K monitor...) Save and print.

[JonMarsh]

Note, as per the original Ardent, I will prepare a detailed "BOM" schematic with component recommendations for the new midrange section broken out in detail, part by part. Sit tight. At least you have a viable schematic in case I get run over by a semi today!

[JonMarsh]

I've almost finished the bases, Wood work is completed. I'm just waiting on the thin ABS plastic to "skin" the base. This will help prevent any damage when the vacuum smacks into the base of the speaker. ABS is very tough stuff and almost bullet proof.
Being a cheap SOB, I checked out the prices for a rubber base gasket, and did not want to pay $15+ per speaker for a sheet of rubber I was going to cut up anyway. I didn't want to use strips like window or door sealant because they always leak at the corners. I had recently gone to Michael's Crafts store to buy a foam sheet to be cut into a new turntable mat. Always trying something different, it's a disease most of us have. I thought the foam would be perfect for the gasket too, so I went back and purchased a couple of black ones to try out. Guess what? They were PERFECT! The down side is they cost me a total of $2.15 for both. What the heck, it's only money! I splurged and bought 2. They are a 1 mm closed cell rubber type foam that feels exactly like a speaker gasket provided by a manufacturer. Here are the pictures.

Edit; I may try a can of spray on Truck bed liner instead of the thin ABS sheet. Would be much easier. Any thoughts?

The big heavy cabinet wall faceted speakers I gave away to my friend who ten years later founded Avalon were painted with the equivalent of truck bed liner. But I think the ABS would be a bit more posh. As always, your speakers, your bucks, your call.

You price out parts the way my girlfriend prices out clothes... But then living in a fairly posh community (gross understatement) she just shops the thrift stores, for all the high end brands- been doing that for years while she was working, too. Only spends $10 on something if she really, really likes it and it's very nice. And she shops the thrift store when their having they're weekly sales. You two would probably get along fine philosophically...

[JonMarsh]

Updated components breakdown crossover with suggestions, for 12MU4731

[Renron]

At least one latte. Jon, thank you for your hard work. I just can't say thank you enough for your time. It is the nicest gift you can give. AND you kept the parts list to only 18 components! (jk)
5 Ohms from a 4 ohm midrange? Next is water to wine! You are indeed a miracle worker with XOs. I'm so excited to start building this XO I can hardly wait for the parts to arrive. As soon as I get paid for the kidney, I'll order the parts. Naw, I've been acquiring some of the capacitors I thought I would need for a few months now. That's a lot of capacitance. Now that I know exactly what's needed I can get serious.
On a different note, my wifee shops the "high end" second hand stores for name brand clothing too. That's too funny. Why don't they have any of those kind of stores for Guy stuff? (it ain't FleaBay)
Ron

[TEK]

As soon as I get paid for the kidney

Jesus Ron! Have you started to sell your body parts to be able to afford diy speaker parts 8O

[BobEllis]

He was warned how addictive this hobby is.

[Renron]

Addictive indeed.
I've been busy on other projects too. Still waiting for the weather to warm up so I can veneer my Ardents.
Thanks Jon for the XO work. I'm buying your ticket to Burning Amp this year and your lunch too. No, you don't have a choice.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43133-2RCC-center-channel-w-RS28F&p=610786#post610786

Ron

[Renron]

Question for anyone who knows.
How important is the quality of the Parallel capacitors in the XO ? How much do they effect the sound? I know quality Caps in series are vital.
I have a bunch of high value "OLD YELLOW" (Mylar I think) ones from NHT, in my parts bin. The leads are cut short but can be soldered.
Or is this like putting Uncle Bob's Gas Station el cheapo gas in a Ferrari?

Thanks,
Ron

[JonMarsh]

In the woofer circuit, no big deal. In the midrange, just put the caps down and back away from the bench... otherwise, we may have to call in the drones...

[Renron]

Yes, my Master....................

[Renron]

Now we all know it's important to use non inductive resistors when building XO (crossover) circuits. It's a given. But, how much and what's the difference in resistors? How much inductance do they have?
Well being frugal as I am, this thread proves it, I decided to check it out. Here's some of what I've learned.
This is a 10 min video on resistors, inductive and non inductive types tested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hRwIRpxc0Y

The two pictures below are my photos, both are Dale brand which are very well respected in the 'Audio' community. One is a 10W and the other is a 50W.
Please note that the reading is below a mH and is in uH territory. Just how much energy storage are we talking about? Does it REALLY effect anything at this level? I doubt I can hear it.
Just food for thought and I welcome your comments.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Some of my crossover circuits are using 100 or 150 uH in a tweeter inductor circuit. A resistor with 31 uH is not all that cool, IMO. Just saying. For a zobel network in a woofer Low Pass, no problem. For a padding network in a tweeter crossover, not recommended.

YMMV, it's your funeral, blah blah blah... :W

Do what makes you happy... I won't burn crosses in your yard if you use these with a ScanSpeak tweeter, but I may wave my designer finger at you (the way my GF waves her "mommy finger" at me sometimes... )

[sdl2112]

Hey Ron,

FWIW...I see you are reading a negative value. This likely indicates some offset in the meter. To get a more accurate reading it would be best to twist the measuring leads unless very short. This will minimize lead loop inductance and give more repeatable results. Then short the leads and take the difference from this value to the value of the device under test.

-Scott

Now we all know it's important to use non inductive resistors when building XO (crossover) circuits. It's a given. But, how much and what's the difference in resistors? How much inductance do they have?
Well being frugal as I am, this thread proves it, I decided to check it out. Here's some of what I've learned.
This is a 10 min video on resistors, inductive and non inductive types tested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hRwIRpxc0Y

The two pictures below are my photos, both are Dale brand which are very well respected in the 'Audio' community. One is a 10W and the other is a 50W.
Please note that the reading is below a mH and is in uH territory. Just how much energy storage are we talking about? Does it REALLY effect anything at this level? I doubt I can hear it.
Just food for thought and I welcome your comments.
Ron

[Renron]

Always open to those with more experience than me. The leads are ~6" long. I have purchased new inductors from P.E. which have measured exactly as labeled. I'm not sure why it measures as a negative #.
Jon, Have you ever measured Mundorf M-Resist resistors for Inductance? I'm not about to argue with the designer, (or play Russian Roulette), but I am curious how a resistor can have Zero inductance. They are the same design construction as the 50W Dale in the photo above.
Hey, I'm trying to learn here! Don't shoot.

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Non-inductive resistors (if properly designed and manufactured) have coils arranged so that the inductance is distributed in two halves out of phase with each other so that the net effect cancels. They're not truly non inductive, but it should be possible to get the parasitic inductance below 1 uH. In fact, for power amps, we used to wind 1-2 uH inductors for output decoupling from capacitive loads back in the day. These days, we have class D amps with output inductors of 220nH. That's 0.22 uH.

[Renron]

Thank you Jon,
As they say in Tennis; Point Marsh!
I did some more real and theoretical reading about bifilar resistors, Even Mundorf admits they're not really non inductive. They won't give any #s though on how much they do have. For a few $$$ more and to keep your blood pressure down and the burnt cross off my lawn I'll just do as instructed. Mundorf M Resist it is.

[JonMarsh]

Cool, Ron!

Now, one more weekend factoid- those tricks for reducing the effective inductance are also applied to some high end speaker cables- and some midrange, like the braided construction of the Kimber tc series, like the 8tc and 12tc.

In the case of speaker cables like my Cardas Golden Reference, the loop back inductance per foot is under 0.02uH. That means a 3 meter cable length is, lets round up to 10ft, that's 0.2uH. I have verified that with an HP4192 network analyzer. That definitely isn't zip cord....

[Renron]

Music Direct has the Kimber Kable 12tc 10' pair on sale for $830 + shipping.
I'm still trying to accept $15/ resistor. Ha! I'm just cheap at heart. But I will use the Bifilar resistors, Mundorf Supremes. Thanks again for the edumacation.
Ron

[Renron]

Solarez UV cure Grain Filler

Here's a photo of different coatings on Sapele Pomelle.
On the left is General Finishes Arm R Seal on top of Solarez UV cure Grain filler (2 coats of grain sealer flat sanded to 600 grit) Dust nibs my fault.
Middle of the picture is just the flat sanded Solarez UV grain filler. It's a polyester BTW.
On the Right is 3 light coats of General Finishes Arm R Seal hand rubbed. It's a rubbing finish. No grain filler just Arm R Seal.

The crosshatch test for adhesion with the Arm R Seal on top of the Polyester grain filler was a complete failure. Success! That's why I'm testing. Ripped off in a big sheet. I now know that won't work. :E

The Solarez UV grain filler is neat stuff thou. I applied two coats within 15 minutes it was completely cured. It doesn't dry, it cures. Wiped on a coat with an old T shirt rag, let stand 5 minutes to level out, then exposed it to the sun for 10 seconds. Brought it back into the shade for 3 minutes to
offgas and then took it outside for ~2 minutes. Completely dry cured. Whoa.
Second coat went exactly the same way. Sanded flat to 600 grit and that's what you see. It sanded very easily without corn nubs on the sandpaper, just powder.
Now I'm not sold on this technology, but it is interesting...... Future tests to come.
I found many posts about this product on Luthier forums.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

That does sound pretty amazing- thanks for bringing that to our attention!