Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build

[Renron]

Oh no, I've started veneering......

I've heard it said that slow and steady wins the race. Well if that's true, I'm "leading from behind".
I've started applying the veneer to my cabinets, and I thought some others may / may not, learn from my mistakes.
First picture is how I trim the veneer after it has been glued to the cabinet. I'm working with solid veneer and not paper backed or Pressure sensitive. Would have been easier, but I wanted to learn this technique.
Cutting the Veneer using a credit card thickness plastic stock. I move the credit card at the same time as the exacto blade, rather than moving the blade on the card. This ensures that the blade will NOT follow the grain and cuts true to the thickness of the Credit Card. Move the blade and card together as one unit. Very light pressure on the blade, multiple passes are the key to success. It's easy to feel the difference when you cut through.
This edge can then be cleaned up with 120 - 180 grit paper on a flat block for a perfect edge, no worries about "tear out".
Next picture is first in a series of how to flatten out the washboard ripples in veneer stock.
This veneer has already been treated and pressed with a veneer softener. DIY recipe of course.:T
Most of the ripples came out during the press stage, but these were left and need to be flattened out before applying to the cabinet.
I LIGHTLY sprayed the area with plain water and set the iron to "silk" setting, keep the iron moving and the wrinkles will come out like magic. I use a flat board with this method. Immediately after ironing put the board on top of the hot spot. This transfers the heat away form the veneer quickly, and prevents warping the veneer stock as it drys. This is an important step.
Next time I"ll show the proper way to inject glue into a veneer "bubble".
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Watching a master at work... Thanks for sharing this much detail, I'm sure it will help others at times...

[BobEllis]

Glad to see you back at it, Ron. And I thought my burl veneer was in need of flattening. 8O

Thanks for the tips. I used JWW's stuff and ironed with flannel over and under my veneer a bit warmer. As soon as it was flat and dry it went onto my speakers. Flattened just one piece at a time. I'll try your method next project.

I'm on a Gramps week, so there won't be progress on this end for a while. Not complaining, mind you. It didn't take long for her to realize that I was the person she'd been seeing on FaceTime and let out a squeal that melted hearts.

[TEK]

Thanks for sharing Ron.
Could you share you DIY receipt for veneer softner as well?

[Renron]

Sure Tek,

I found several recipes online that were similar, after trying a few and comparing their results I came up with my own "flavor". I prefer to have the veneer pliable as opposed to rigid.
Here's how softener works.
The mixture is absorbed by cell walls of the Veneer. The Alcohol allows the water / glycerine to be absorbed quicker, but it's the glycerine that keeps the Veneer pliable after the water has evaporated. So if you want more flexible Veneer add more Glycerine.
For us old timers (myself included) Glycerine used to be a prime component in automotive anti-freeze, that's why it tasted sweet.
Glycerine is also used in everything from auto paint to cosmetic make up, to food additives. Yummy!

Here's my softener recipe.
4 oz. Water
2 Tablespoons of DAP WeldWood plastic resin glue
2 oz. of Glycerine
1 oz. Denatured Alcohol

Mix well with warm - hot water and let it sit for 5 minutes. Use a paint strainer / filter to fill a quality spray bottle and spray it on the veneer. (you can use a brush instead) Let soak for 5 minutes, then sandwich Veneer between a fiberglass window screen and paper to absorb the water as the veneer dries. Screen keeps the paper from sticking to the veneer. So it's ; Caul / paper / Screen / Veneer / Screen / paper / Caul. The Caul is a flat board, Melamine works great as it's water resistant. Clamp or stack weight on top.

You can use any glue you like, I like the dark color and quality of the resin glue. The glue adds stability to the veneer when drying.
The glycerine won't effect any top coats or stain when dry. When you think the veneer is dry, give it another day. It will stay pliable for quite awhile > 2 weeks.

If you buy the powdered resin type glue, put it in a Ziploc bag immediately after you open the container, as it's hygroscopic and moisture in the air will cause premature failure of the resin. Seems obvious to me.....

Ron

[Renron]

Slow work takes time................

Well it is both an honor and a curse to be selected for jury duty. :E Week Blogs and we just heard closing arguments yesterday. This is eating into my speaker building time!
But all is for naught, I have pictures and some information to share with others which may help their veneering in the future.

When I purchased my Veneer, from Joe Woodwooker dba, Veneer Supplies dot com. I thought I'd make it easy on myself and buy WIDE veneer so I wouldn't have to splice / bookmatch the 15 1/4" sides of the speaker. Well, the best laid plans and all that rot.......
I cut my 20" x 48" wide Veneer oversized and was in the flattening process, spraying with the softener when a large gust of wind came up and removed it from my tenuous grasp. It took off like a paper airplane, sailed about 10 feet and landed on the concrete with a crack! :jawdrop: . Upon picking up my sail plane I noticed it had developed a huge split, you guessed it right in the middle. #$&^@## it!

So after returning from WoodCrafters with some veneer tape and a new attitude, not much to loose at this point, I went about repairing my stupid mistake. Well as things sometimes go, from the frying pan into the fire I went, headfirst. Eyebrows on fire. My flattened split veneer had ripples in it along with the 12" split. Blue painters tape (3M of course) on the back side, pulled tight trying to close the split worked pretty well. Flipped it over and applied the Veneer tape to the front / face of the Veneer and waited for it to dry. Once dry, I removed the blue tape from the back / glue side and breathed a sigh of relief that the veneer tape held the split shut. Whew!

Here is the part where I learned something and will share so others don't outsmart themselves too.
Wide Veneer has a tendency to ripple and split, this is why most (smart) people won't work the the really wide stuff and use narrower pieces in a book-matched set instead. Looking at my wide Veneer I see ripples in the middle of the field, not small like you would get from grain ripples, I'm talking about ocean size waves. 1/2" tall, cresting, white water spraying, make you seasick types of waves. With a spacing of about 1" apart.
Awe just shoot me now kind of waves. At this point I couldn't just glue it down and hope for the best, so I did what anyone else would do (that doesn't drink anymore) and busted out the wife's clothes Iron and a mist bottle of distilled water. Deep breath, GO! About an hour later I was able to flatten out the waves with patience. I found that I needed to heat a very large area of the veneer and not just the offending parts. It developed several splits during my learning process. If the majority of the veneer is heated it expands somewhat evenly and won't split, small sections split.
Blue tape in one hand, veneer tape in another hand, and the iron in the other hand I was able to tame the veneer seas.

Unlike Bob's build who is using a vacuum press, I'm using the caveman method of cauls and clamps. I never claimed to be smart, just determined.
I've beveled my 18" cauls about 1/8" on each end, pressure wise I think it's pretty close when all surfaces are touching. Cauls need to be spaced no more than 6" apart. and tightened from the middle out to the ends.
This is a good time to talk about how much glue to use for veneering. I have always just poured it on, brushed it evenly and called it good enough. But there is a better way! I purchased a glue roller at the same time I purchased the Veneer, one of the best purchases I've ever made. Very, very easy to spread the glue evenly on the surface to be veneered. I've found that when the roller just starts to skip because there is too much glue, you've got the right amount. There is a certain "way" it feels and you'll know what I mean when you use the roller, it's easy and the learning curve is short.
I now get good glue joints in the middle and the edges without too much squeeze out. Just right! I highly recommend using a roller for glue application!

After too many days away from working on the speakers I removed the cauls and platens and pleasurably found a flat well glued veneered side of my speaker. Splits hidden and all. Pictures are worth a thousand words. I should be close by now.
Chalk line at the top is to identify the face side, ruler is to scale the split, and what looks like a wave in the middle of the veneer is natural grain Chatoyance.

Sorry for the ramble, it must be my day off from court.

Ron

[BobEllis]

Pretty. Glad you were able to salvage it. It'll be interesting to see how you cave man the facets. That's where I decided on the vacuum press. I suppose a couple 2x4 ring frames to surround the speaker and give you something to push against would do the job - a primitive version of the machine that Avalon uses with screw jacks to provide clamping pressure. I might be done now if I'd thought of that sooner...

[Steve Manning]

Ron ..... nice save on the repair. The car batteries certainly bring the cave man approach to a new level :T, one might even say high tech .....

You are Bob are the real men ..... I have not been brave enough yet to go the raw veneer route, just the paper backed version. I have found though the paper backed stuff does make a better more durable sail plane though.

Sounds like jury duty is going around ...... I just got done with a 2 month stint myself.

[JonMarsh]

Let's not bring up jury duty anymore- I usually get summoned about once a year, and it's been a couple of years...

Great save on the veneer- I too am chickenSchitt about working with raw veneer, having been spanked a couple of time in the past (think original Ardent). As you guys may recall I've kind of turned into a careful PSA kind of guy, and that's mostly worked pretty well for me, as long as you do the right surface prep (epoxy, epoxy, and epoxy...)

And then there's those times I really cheat, and don't use a lick of veneer...




I think that's the best plan for the more inept amongst us, like myself. :B

[BobEllis]

http://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0

I haven't done much veneering, and this is my first raw veneer project. Guess I don't know my limitations. Old fighter adage, "If you don't occasionally exceed the limits you don't really know where they are."

[TEK]

It's not very nice to say it, but it kindof feels good that it's not just me that have a hard time applying raw veneer to the speakers.

About veneering the facets - they are quite small areas and I found that ironing the veneer on worked very well.

[Horio]

There is certainly an art to veneering. My first attempt at veneer was some raw walnut veneer. After a disastrous first practice attempt the cracked and split like crazy, I discover this magical thing called veneer softener. From that point on the veneering went well using the iron on method, though my pieces were quite a bit narrower than whats required for the the Wavecor Ardent.

I'm seriously considering going the meb route and painting my Wavecor Ardents. I'd put a few coats of epoxy to get a nice smooth and flat surface then apply the paint and a clear coat over the top.

[benthe8track]

Edit: Double post

[benthe8track]

Ron, I bet you won't even be able to tell when it's finished. Those test pieces look good too. Sorry if I missed it but are you thinking high gloss finish?

I did Raw on the back because I was just short on the sheet of PSA. Raw is nice because you don't get seams. I'm noticing the PSA seams showing more as time goes on. I think if I filled the raw grain the surface finish would have been more uniform.
Raw on the left (back) and PSA on the right:

[Renron]

Deep breath............aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Bob, I've tried several methods of Flintstone manufacturing for attaching the facets and I've come up with a good plan that has worked previously. No batteries needed.

Steve, Holly Molly 2 months!!! Patience of a saint you must have. I've almost fallen asleep a few times already....... BTW I just read your thread on the painted BMW grey speakers you built. Fantastic work and professionalism shows!

Jon, hate to say it dude, but your due! Why should Steve and I be the only ones punished? PSA has crossed my mind a few times, but like Bob, I enjoy pushing the / my limits. I like the looks of the bamboo grain but I'm too cheap for solid bamboo speakers. And I don't own a crane or engine hoist to move 'em. You are the pinnacle we strive for.

Bob again, I'm following your lead and you give me incentive. Clint Eastwood, what a man! No stinkin' metrosexuals allowed!
Clint right back at 'cha. Sort of my theme with these speakers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A732Cuuo2tI

Tek, Don't be a d1ck. Hah. Of course I'm joking, yeah solid veneer is not very forgiving or easy to work with. If mine come out 1/2 as nice as yours I'll be happy.

Horio, Thanks for the input. You bet it's an art! I did use veneer softener but things sometimes just don't go as planned. What is the MEB route?

Benthe8track, I've veneered a few speakers with cherry paper backed, but this is my first time with solid veneer. I've joined one corner (photo) and the seam disappeared.
There are definite benefits to both types. Yet to use PSA. Only sticky experience was with black contact type paper for my subwoofer build, it's about 3.5 feet tall. That walnut is just gorgeous, just gorgeous. I had planned on using Arm-R- Seal for the finish, it's a wiping varnish. But I've switched to Epifanes Marine Spar Varnish with a touch of Cobalt drier to act as hardener and hope to complete a medium to high gloss finish. After the center channel I built, and just completing a pair of high gloss black speaker for my son I'm a little leery of high gloss, especially in black. Too much stress with black...... High gloss is very classy thou and I may not be able to resist.

[TEK]

Ron, I bet you won't even be able to tell when it's finished. Those test pieces look good too. Sorry if I missed it but are you thinking high gloss finish?

I did Raw on the back because I was just short on the sheet of PSA. Raw is nice because you don't get seams. I'm noticing the PSA seams showing more as time goes on. I think if I filled the raw grain the surface finish would have been more uniform.
Raw on the left (back) and PSA on the right:

That is exactly the same that I experienced with my subs that also had PSA veneer. After a while the seem between the sides started to show.
My Ardents that used raw veneer got perfect seems (can't see it), and they still look exactly the same as when I built them.
So for seems, thumps up for raw veneer! When it comes to those large areas and ease of use thumbs up for psa veneer...
Tip; You could try to just color the seem brown with a filter pen...

[Renron]

Tek,
Good Idea, the subwoofer seams are showing and it looks terrible, a felt pen is a good fix.
Thanks, you workbench thread is enjoyable.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Thanks for the kind words on the Jensen build Ron ....... learned a lot about getting things sealed since that project. One can see some seem bleed through if you look for it, always a learning process.

[Renron]

Steve,
I found a product that could work extremely well to seal and hide seams on MDF and plywood both. It's Solar-Rez. Give it a look.

I needed to make a repair to the edge of my veneer which self destructed when I was cutting the excess off. So I took a few photos of the process. I should have used a new blade, it would have come out better. But, it's acceptable and will be hard to find once the finish goes on.
Find a section of veneer that matches the grain and color, then cut clean edges on the blank, sand them if needed.
Use the new piece as a template to cover the damage, and cut out the damaged area.
Use glue sparingly, I over did it and got some bleed through which colored the cut area.
Let dry and sand with the grain, as always. Done!
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Steve,
I found a product that could work extremely well to seal and hide seams on MDF and plywood both. It's Solar-Rez. Give it a look.

I needed to make a repair to the edge of my veneer which self destructed when I was cutting the excess off. So I took a few photos of the process. I should have used a new blade, it would have come out better. But, it's acceptable and will be hard to find once the finish goes on.
Find a section of veneer that matches the grain and color, then cut clean edges on the blank, sand them if needed.
Use the new piece as a template to cover the damage, and cut out the damaged area.
Use glue sparingly, I over did it and got some bleed through which colored the cut area.
Let dry and sand with the grain, as always. Done!
Ron

Nice job on the patch Ron ..... Looks like Solar-Rez has some interesting products. Did you try anything specific of theirs?

[Renron]

Steve,
Look up above in this thread to post #224, Pictures and everything. Sarcasm. The stuff isn't cheap but I believe it will have a permanent place in my "tools and tricks".

https://smile.amazon.com/Solarez-Grain-Filler-Sealer-Quart/dp/B010TM2LBE

Youtube video of it's use; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og-Enrfd97k
Ron

[Renron]

Caveman Straps

So after many nights of thinking about how to glue the veneer to the facets, I ended up trying a few ideas and this one worked out the best.
My first attempt ended up like Bob's did, the veneer shifted while glue / epoxy was drying. :E I had to remove it with a chisel and re-sand it before the next veneer attempt. Most glues WON'T adhere well to a glued surface, so I sanded it back down to raw plywood edges again. Not fun, but not too bad either. The glue I'm using is a Cold Press glue from Joe WoodWorker, dries very hard and not squishy like Titebond would. Great glue for Veneer! :T

After my first failure, I taped the veneer in place prior to the pressure distribution block I made. There are "L" shaped blocks on the back to protect the veneer already in place. This worked well and dried perfectly. Came out great after a 120 grit block sanding.
I love the grain and look of this veneer, however it changes grain direction like a teenage girl changes clothes. Whoa. And I had thought cherry was bad. Ha!
Ron

[Steve Manning]

That stuff is going to look amazing when you put some finish on it Ron.

[Renron]

Steve,
Wild huh?
Happy , Happy , Happy.

[BobEllis]

Sorry you had slippage. Very frustrating. At least with epoxy all I needed to do was sand to a smooth surface.

How are you protecting the already veneered corners? That was the main reason I decided against band clamps. That and my facets are slightly rounded along their length, making proper clamping with a hard caul difficult.

Glad to see you making progress. The weather up here is crazy - we are back to high temperatures in the low 60s, mid 40s overnight. I have one cabinet ready for the top facet, the other for an attempt at filling the bubble. Heat will help, water beads on my epoxy saturated veneer. I have 700 pounds of lead boat ballast to pile on top to clamp. Not quite the pressure I get with a vacuum clamp, but should be enough. Hoping I don't have to take the top veneer off.

[JonMarsh]

Great progress, Ron.... brings back memories... not all of them fond!




PSA sure was easier on the 2nd set!

[Renron]

Bob,
If you look at my the strap picture above, you'll notice the ratchet part is on a piece of plywood. That plywood is two pieces screwed together on the long edge forming a 90* angle. One on top under the ratchets and one on the bottom to protect that corner. I'll use another Triangle piece I made to protect the veneer on the opposite side facet. The Triangle pieces are about 3/4" oversized on both long sides and the straps never touch the veneer. I'll post a picture tomorrow that will clear up my ramblings. (I hope)
How are your corners rounded?

Jon,
Great minds think alike! I did the same thing with my curved speakers many years ago.
PSA shure would have been a lot easier and FASTER. I don't know if I'm too dumb or just too stubborn. Maybe next time!

Thanks to all for the encouragement.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Ah, that's what I get for looking at it on my phone. Thought the boards were background clutter, like in my workspace.

My facets aren't quite flat either due to wobbling through the taper cuts, uneven sanding or both. Not that you'd notice without a straightedge to compare to but just enough that I figured the flexible caul of a breathermesh lined vacuum bag made sense to get tight seams.

[Renron]

Ah, I understand. When I cut the facets I used a worm drive saw, then a Japanese Pull saw, then a power planer then a belt sander to smooth them out. Guess what? Mine weren't flat either. Before gluing the veneer I checked the flatness with a metal straight edge and found it had a hump in the middle of ~1/16". 80 Grit and a cutoff from a piece of maple fixed it in a few minutes.
A vacuum bag would have made it easier for sure. Many way to skin the proverbial cat! Glad to see you progressing as well.

Any good ideas on how to "Caveman" the facet above the tweeter? I've not quite figured that one out yet....
Ron

[BobEllis]

LONG strap clamps - end to end.

[Renron]

Ok, I feel stupid now.
Thanks Bob! (not sarcasm)

[Renron]

Pictures!

Thanks to Bob for the idea of "going Long" with the straps, it worked out great!
Keeping with the caveman theme, I've included a picture of how I glued up the top veneer, I had to clamp the speaker to the dolly to prevent it from tipping over :T
Other pictures are of items i have used in this build and would recommend them to everyone. The glue roller is "THE" way to apply glue for Veneering. It's just fantastic!
The mouse was about $10 and works great, when the paper loads up, peel it off give it a whack to clean it and put it back on 90* from before and its almost like new paper. It sands flat and doesn't gouge at the corners. $$$ well spent.
Almost finished the veneer on one, the second one should go faster. Better hurry up Bob.

[BobEllis]

Ha! I've got a couple days left veneering. Tomorrow the front face goes on one (Done) and the top facet on the other. Saturday the face goes on the second and we are on to finish prep. Looking at the way the epoxy didn't completely saturate some parts, I think its a very light coat of epoxy before final sanding to put the GF on.

[Renron]

Can't wait to see what yours look like with a coat of prep finish on them. Freak Maple. Awesome.
I've got to get back to veneering tonight, just to keep up with you.
Ron

[dar47]

Good old Kirkland batteries! Keep banging away guys I can almost hear them now, oh wait those are mine, haha.

[Steve Manning]

I see someone has been shopping at Joe's ...... those rollers are great for any type of glue I've found.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks to Bob for the idea of "going Long" with the straps, it worked out great!
Keeping with the caveman theme, I've included a picture of how I glued up the top veneer, I had to clamp the speaker to the dolly to prevent it from tipping over :T
Other pictures are of items i have used in this build and would recommend them to everyone. The glue roller is "THE" way to apply glue for Veneering. It's just fantastic!
The mouse was about $10 and works great, when the paper loads up, peel it off give it a whack to clean it and put it back on 90* from before and its almost like new paper. It sands flat and doesn't gouge at the corners. $$$ well spent.
Almost finished the veneer on one, the second one should go faster. Better hurry up Bob.

This brings back a lot of memories of my first Ardent build- and veneering- a rather arduous process! Hang in there, you're making a lot of progress....

[Renron]

One Down, One to go!

Jon,
Thanks for the encouragement. Arduous indeed! Keepin' on Keepin' on. I can't imagine Dar47 and Benthe8track making as many as they did, a Herculean task well done!

"dar47

Good old Kirkland batteries! Keep banging away guys I can almost hear them now, oh wait those are mine, haha. " .............:M............. My day will come!

How Jon and Tek finished theirs so quickly amazes me.

Steve,
That sanding mouse is (almost) as good a find as the glue roller. IMO


Latest Pic. We all like pictures

I had a little glue seepage through the top veneer, it was a lesser grade than the sides and has a much more open grain structure. Wiping it down with mineral spirits reveals that it will NOT show under a finish. Whew. Dodged that bullet. This wood is so fantastic looking, equally a pain to work with too. Lots of blow outs and I'm getting really good at "Dutchies". There are two on the tweeter hole, one at 6:30 and one at 8:00. 6" away and I can't see them.

[sdl2112]

Looks great...Now I can't wait to see the finish on yours too!

[JonMarsh]

Nice pic, really coming along well Ron-

The reason why the 2nd time was so fast, was PSA veneer. One might say it has it's own set of issue in prep, but if those are handled OK, then the rest goes amazingly fast- the fundamental cheat was the epoxy prep.

Now, with the Isiris I cheated- no veneer. I'm likely to wimp out and do some variant of that again- my and my HVLP sprayer are becoming best buds- must be all that time as a mis-spent youth spraying paint on motorcycles.

[Renron]

HVLP spraying is fun. It's also nerve wracking. Many factors and steps that can cause the entire paint job to fail in the end. But when it all goes right it's a wonderful feeling. Hardest part is not touching that bug that landed in the top coat. DON'T DO IT. LOL. How many times have I ruined a paint job trying to pick out that Kamikaze bug. There is always one........LOL
Ron

[olu78]

I have been peeking in periodically, and you have obviously made quite a bit of progress with your Ardents. I imagine you must be very excited to finally complete your build, so that listening and enjoying may commence. The veneer you have chosen reminds me of the Pommele Sapele veneer I used on my very first speaker build, many years ago. Great work!

[Renron]

Olu78,
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, why yes I am excited to hear these beauties sing! They will be a touch different sounding than "The premium" with the Accuton mid and Berillium tweeters.
I personally really like the sound of Scan Speak drivers, but I have left open the option (while designing the cabinets) to use the Accuton mid driver later if I'm not satisfied with Scan Speak's top of the line mid range driver. I've still yet to finish the XOs, I'm in no hurry.
The Pomelle Sapele is beautiful veneer , but a pain to work with. Figure that makes the chattoyance sparkle also makes cutting / trimming prone to fractures and splits. I'm sure you had the same experience with your build. Care to share a photo? Drop it in this thread. What finish schedule did you use? Most of all, are you happy and would you do it again?
Ron

[Renron]

First Coat

Here's a photo after the first coat of Seal Coat dewaxed shellac. Shellac fills in the "pits" and grain pockets very well. I'll put 2 coats on and sand it flat with 220 then start the Epifanes Gloss Varnish. The Chatoyance is incredible already. Still working on the other speaker's veneer.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Very nice, Ron.