Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[BobEllis]

Certainly worth polishing your woodworking skills before starting a project like this. They deserve your best possible effort, but you'd be surprised what you can do with a router, straightedge and a handsaw.

[Wayne1]

If you are willing to wait a bit for delivery, AudioHobby has a bit better pricing on Jantzen caps and coils. I have used them 3 times with very positive results.

[Renron]

Fdas,
In the woofer circuit I used medium grade capacitors, the mid circuit I used very good grade of capacitors, Tweeter circuit the best I could afford (Clarity Cap MR plus Teflon, mix and match values)
Resister wise , same deal , Woofer circuit mid grade (power resistors), but mid and tweeters got the "Good Stuff" (M-Resist Supremes) so Jon wouldn't yell at me.
Everything worked well together and both Jon and I were pleased.

There are MANY fine capacitors at fair prices, you don't have to buy the Mundorf copper caps.

Ron

[Fdas]

OK.

I put this together based on schematics and so I'm not sure what 'level' of cross over this is... low end, mid range, high end? Reading what you said it seems like this is solidly mid range, which I am fine with. I'm also fine with making any adjustments to components where either i will save money for no loss in performance, or where I will gain performance for a small increase in price. Basically, looking for the whole 'best bang for buck' concept.

Also just need to make sure the values I have picked are correct.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bcCQ6CBHpANRDQlDuFuPhNIzPSMvjczRwBagk7ATkQc/edit?usp=sharing

[Steve Manning]

Fdas,
In the woofer circuit I used medium grade capacitors, the mid circuit I used very good grade of capacitors, Tweeter circuit the best I could afford (Clarity Cap MR plus Teflon, mix and match values)
Resister wise , same deal , Woofer circuit mid grade (power resistors), but mid and tweeters got the "Good Stuff" (M-Resist Supremes) so Jon wouldn't yell at me.
Everything worked well together and both Jon and I were pleased.

There are MANY fine capacitors at fair prices, you don't have to buy the Mundorf copper caps.

Ron

Usually it's more of a tisk - tisk than out right yelling.

[Fdas]

If I have access to CNC routed panels, is that something that anyone has ever done to make these cabinets? I assume the facets still must be cut some other way.

[dar47]

Hi Fdas, welcome to the Ardents!

You will always have access to your cross overs and can start with mid grade parts if the budget is tight to start. It can be a nice experiment to upgrade your cross over later to hear differences. Remember these speaks are going to ruthlessly reveal how good your front end gear is which if like me may drag you down that upgrade path as well.

The first 6 complete cabinets and 2 other baffles were all produced using CNC. As mentioned you can cut facets by other means or use a 4 axes CNC machine with a jig fixture to do the facets as well. A 5 axis CNC can do the facets without a fixture to hold the baffle. Ben and I chose to source a cabinet builder with a panel saw that did the cuts clean and fast. This was not a lot of money and we supplied the fixture to hold the baffles at the right angle and he just mounted them and ran them through the saw, so not much of his time was needed. By the way the fixture to hold the baffle was CNC'd too!

[Fdas]

Is the program available for all the CNC cuts for all the various panels?

Also, wouldn't like a festool skillsaw + rail be capable of cutting the facets?

[TEK]

Also, wouldn't like a festool skillsaw + rail be capable of cutting the facets?

It has been done ;-)

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41695-My-Wavecor-Ardent-with-center-build&p=601428&viewfull=1#post601428

(PS: read post 129 before you start if you are planning on using this method, my facets are 50 degrees instead of 40. I like it that way but you might not)

[roadrune]

Sorry if this has been adressed earlier, but i couldnt be bothered to read the entire thread to find out :P

Does theese compare to anything commercially available? They seems like a good option for me, but i would like to have a idea of what to expect before i would start...

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

[Fdas]

Similar idea to Avalon Accoustics speakers, right? I don't know if any one of those speakers matches exactly to this one.

[TEK]

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

I do not recall seeing any other from Norway that has buildt these.
I'm located in Trondheim.

[Fdas]

Can I use 4x https://www.hificollective.co.uk/cat...r-p-10213.html in series instead of 5x 20 ohm resistors in parallel?

[BobEllis]

Similar idea to Avalon Accoustics speakers, right? I don't know if any one of those speakers matches exactly to this one.

IIRC, Jon targeted the Avalon Indra. He missed the target high, and the extension and maximum SPL are pretty much the same as the Time. Although I've not heard either Avalon speaker, the Ardents seem to be on par with anything else I've heard in the $40-60K range. A pretty good return on your investment in parts and time.

[JonMarsh]

Sorry if this has been adressed earlier, but i couldnt be bothered to read the entire thread to find out :P

Does theese compare to anything commercially available? They seems like a good option for me, but i would like to have a idea of what to expect before i would start...

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

The Wavecor Ardent, as we call it, derives from the original Ardent, which in turn was inspired by the Avalon Indra. Both the original Ardent and the Indra used dual 7" woofers.

This is the Avalon Indra. BTW, an old friend, Charlie Hansen, who used to work for me when he was a student at CU, founded Avalon. There's more relevant back story, but not to be told here.




The Indra uses the same C79 midrange, but an Accuton ceramic tweeter, and two Eton 8 Ohm woofers in parallel. Because of the impedance characteristics of the woofers and the crossover network, the Indra has a fairly punishing low frequency impedance characteristics, getting down to about 2.5 ohms for a couple of octaves. They sold for between $28K and $32K.

The Wavecor Ardent retains the similar enclosure size but is able to use the 8-1/2" Wavecor woofers, which have both more cone area and more Xmax, and a generally all around better motor. They can play lower and louder, and they have a very benign impedance curve at about 5 ohms.

The speakers closes in performance to the Wavecor Ardent's from Avalon is the Avalon Time. They use dual 10" woofers, in a quite a bit larger cabinet, but the woofers don't have the Xmas of the Wavecors. They also use the C79 midrange, but have the 25mm Accuton diamond tweeter. They are more sensitive than the Ardent's, and they MSRP for about $48K a pair. Basic material BOM on the Wavecor Ardent's is $5K.

[BobEllis]

Don't sell your design short, Jon. The Time is advertised at $60K or $64K with premium finishes. https://www.overtureav.com/shop/avalon

[roadrune]

Thanks

I have never heard the Avalon speakers, but the best-and most expencive for that matter- speakers i have heard is the latest version of Bowers & Wilkins 800. I really liked the sound from them, but both the price tag and design does not appeal to me

It seems like the Ardents would fit the bill quite nice for me.

I just have to save a little bit more, so if nothing more appealing shows up in the next year or so, Norway might get a second pair

[Renron]

Jon is such a humble man. (no sarcasm intended) He is very modest. These Ardent speakers easily rival $50,000 speakers in retail stores. Easily. Even thou mine are the mid priced versions I prefer them to the B&W s. Ardents are smoother between drivers.....the drivers blend very well together. I suspect it has much to do with his unorthodox Uber crossover designs. He is the Master. Oops, I hope I didn't offend Evil Twin with that one. E.T. is Jon's teacher, the real Master.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Don't sell your design short, Jon. The Time is advertised at $60K or $64K with premium finishes. https://www.overtureav.com/shop/avalon

you know, the last time I checked the price on the Avalon Time was probably 3-4 years ago. inflation.

Now, one must remember, the advertised price for the basic BOM on the Ardent's doesn't include premium finishes... that's something the individual constructor must supply, if they wish.

For some, like Ron, nothing else will suffice!! :W

[Renron]

That's a great picture of them Jon. Thank you for your hard work designing these treasures. I had them cranked up to 9 the other day, that's 9 out of 10, not 9 o'clock.
Clean and loud...........beautiful.
Ron

[ergo]

I finally pulled the trigger and ordered all of the drive units for Wavecor Ardent. So with this much investment in drivers I'll have to pull myself together, finish the 3D model of the box and order the woods... and then start the box build process. Leaving the Xover ordering for later as there is less risk there as most components have alternatives. Not getting the Accutons for example, once box is ready, would be quite a bummer.

[BobEllis]

Welcome to the club, Ergo. I'm looking forward to watching your build progress. I used the same sort of motivation. Buying drivers means there's too much money invested not to finish. I've had a few projects die on the vine because of early frustrations.

[TEK]

Nice to hear Ergo - hope you will have a fun build and a result that tou are happy with!
What kind of wood are you planning on using for the cabinet?

[Fdas]

What other options are there other than bamboo and BB?

[ergo]

What kind of wood are you planning on using for the cabinet?

Thats a bit of an open question still. As an end result an oak with staining bit towards white (IKEA white oak type of look) is the goal. As for how to get there is more open for now. The biggest panels of bamboo I've found in Estonia are 800x600mm which is too short for this project. Weather it would work to use BB as full pieces and glue join bamboo panels to get enough lenght is something I need to figure out. I did like the bamboo as a a material and for the acoustic result in Minerva project a lot, so would be good to still have that.

[ergo]

For facets - I did an investment in a tool back in July for the decking build

http://www.mafell.com/kss60/#kss60

So I'll be doing the guiderail / circular saw / handsaw / sanding way of doing it.

This one is one of the more expensive versions of all the circular saws but I do like it a lot. Very good engineering and usability and precision of the cuts

[flamethrower1]

Jon is such a humble man. (no sarcasm intended) He is very modest. These Ardent speakers easily rival $50,000 speakers in retail stores. Easily. Even thou mine are the mid priced versions I prefer them to the B&W s. Ardents are smoother between drivers.....the drivers blend very well together. I suspect it has much to do with his unorthodox Uber crossover designs. He is the Master. Oops, I hope I didn't offend Evil Twin with that one. E.T. is Jon's teacher, the real Master.
Ron

I have a hell of a deal on the pawn shop for anyone interested in this build

[roadrune]

I have a hell of a deal on the pawn shop for anyone interested in this build

I might be interrested, depending on what you got, and if you would ship to Norway.

[flamethrower1]

I might be interrested, depending on what you got, and if you would ship to Norway.

PM me if you are still inerested

[ergo]

I finally have all the drivers in house. Now having this much of investment sitting in corner I now need to finish the 3D model and then start the box builds. Hoping this will act as enough of self motivation to push through. I would very much like to get the sound out of these in foreseeable future.

[BobEllis]

Congratulations. Go make some sawdust!

[Renron]

Ergo,
Awesome, really makes you want to get started doesn't it? Please leave a link to your build thread so we all can have fun with you. I love my TS Ardents! One of the most rewarding projects I have ever built.
Thanks to JON! (still trying to get my wife to move to Idaho........probably ain't gonna happen.....;( )
Ron

[Wayman]

Hi,
Looks like some new builds in the future. Excellent!

Can someone give me the net volume? I seem to recall it being 40 liters?

Cheers, Wayne

[ergo]

According to Jon's posted simulations here it's 40L.
I'm in process of replicating the design in Fusion360 - I can try to get the exact volume as well.. just need to figure out how that's done in F360.

The model uses variable parameters for main dimensions (material thicknesses), so once I get to know the exact thickness of each material I can easily update the whole model to that. Base is still do be done and then 'flattening a copy of it' so that I could make 2D drawing and stock list easier.

[Wayman]

Thanks ergo, and that is a nice stack of drivers!

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

Still an old Shark...

Looks like you're making some good progress on that Ergo! I've got F360, too, but I'm still more at home in Shark FX.

[Heli-Tim]

you know, the last time I checked the price on the Avalon Time was probably 3-4 years ago. inflation.

Now, one must remember, the advertised price for the basic BOM on the Ardent's doesn't include premium finishes... that's something the individual constructor must supply, if they wish.

For some, like Ron, nothing else will suffice!! :W

This is a beautiful speaker! I also see a DIY AB sitting pretty in the background!

[Renron]

Heli-Tim,
Thank you for the compliment on the Speakers, even prettier in person.
You have a keen eye. You are correct it is Hot Rodded too. Next to it is a DIY Honey Badger Amp. The worlds best $82 DAC (LOL), and then Bob's great sounding Schiit DAC.
The preamp has been replaced with a NAD M51 DAC. No comparison to the built in DVD player DAC then the PASS Pre amp. The PASS Pre is extremely clinical and (sorry) a little soul less, while the M51 is organic and breathy. Sounds are hard to describe with words. And I'm dumb.

Is the Heli a skiing reference? I lived / skied Tahoe for 20 Years, I'm an OK skier.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

That's a great picture of them Jon. Thank you for your hard work designing these treasures. I had them cranked up to 9 the other day, that's 9 out of 10, not 9 o'clock.
Clean and loud...........beautiful.
Ron

I'm so glad these are working out for you this well, as well as the other builders out there.

They just seem to be at a real sweet spot for all the trade-offs - performance, size, cost, esthetics (WAF), easy to drive (impedance wise, need voltage more than current, no ball buster drops in the mid base with weird phase shift (yes, we're talking about you, Avalon Indra)). And not too awful crazy expensive, particularly if one can use the Patented Renron Midrange substitute and the ScanSpeak 6600 Air Circ tweeter. (got a direct email recently about a cost saving build, and that's what I'm recommending)

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone!

[Heli-Tim]

Is the Heli a skiing reference? I lived / skied Tahoe for 20 Years, I'm an OK skier.
Ron

Ron,

Sounds like a nice set-up!

I had primrose audio custom wind me an 800VA Toriodial XFMR with 2 x 45V outputs for my Badger. I can't wait to get it all assembled to try it out!
Heli, as in Helicopter . I started my career off as a helicopter A-M-E (Avionics/ maintenance). I still love helicopters, but work on larger fixed-wing aircraft! Mostly Avionics work now, although I still have my maintenance endorsement .

Fun fact: I would be a terrible skier, but I could hold my own on a skateboard 15 years ago!

[kvardas]

Hi, enjoying my Wavecor Ardents immensely. Currently I am using a tube line stage and Meitner MTR-101 monoblocks to drive the speakers. The crossovers are mounted externally - been thinking of bi-amping them, with the meitners driving the woofers and perhaps a SET tube amplifier for the mid and tweeters. Consdiering the low sensitivity of the speakers (I think I read 82 in the thread), do you think six watts each channel for the mids and tweeters would be enough, or would a higher power amp be required?

Thanks

Kris

[ergo]

Kris, thats good to hear.

I'm finally at a verge of liftoff with the project as well. Vacation from work started today and all of the enclosure material has been ordered and waiting on floor for about a week now. I'll start a separate build thread as well when I have more to show progress wise. I'm going for a full plywood build as getting the bamboo ply in size needed turned out to be pretty much impossible around here.

I'm also still contemplating on redesigning the brace and back wall to accept the new Hypex Fusion Plate amp for the woofers. Still planning to go passive on the mid/tweeter though.

[BobEllis]

Kris, if it was as simple as pulling the padding resistors out of the mid/tweeter circuit 7 watts would be plenty. Unfortunately, removing or changing them drastically impacts the response. I have driven mine with a 30 watt Aleph-J. Sounds beautiful, but doesn’t reach its dynamic potential without at least 100 Watts, preferably more.

I’d planned to biamp mine, but since the crossover would change so dramatically it wasn’t beneficial. You’ll note that pretty significant changes were required just to adapt to the -2 version of the Wavecor woofers’ 2dB sensitivity change. Jon graciously redesigned the crossover to suit, I wasn’t going to ask for a biamp version.

[Renron]

I tried a Pass Labs F5 25 watts per channel and the Ardents sounded great. But as Bob say, they like to have MORE POWER to really make them shine. Shine they do, fantastic speakers that make me smile each time I sit down to listen to music. Now with 250 Watts of Joy. They get SO loud and do not distort, until you try to speak you don't really comprehend how loud they really are.
A Huge THANK YOU Doc Brown. Master speaker designer and all around good guy.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

I'm with the other guys. If you have some measuring equipment, driving them in full range three way passive triamp would be possible in principle BUT, the filters and attenuation networks are inextricably linked- this keeps the part counts down and is part of the key to having a very flat impedance curve in the finished design. (just compare the Ardent impedance curve to an Avalon Indra, which is brutal for a tube amp to drive).

The Ardent can be easily driven by a tube (or other high-ish output impedance amplifier) with little modification to the frequency response due to impedance interaction. But I'd say you really want something like a Dyna MkIV or more powerful to start... and some big Conrad Johnson's would be perfect. Or a used sample of one of the larger Sonic Frontiers amps.