Ardent Speaker Camp

[Face]

Jon also inspired me to build the speaker on the floor. The second one still isn't complete as I wandered onto other projects for right now, but I plan to finish them by the end of the summer.

Image not available

[5th element]

Face, may I ask you how you arrived at the finish on your W12/Air Circ/W26FX? Is this your typical paint sand paint sand paint sand paint sand polish job or did the final layer of paint do all the hard work?

I remember seeing a thread where a semi gloss/satin finish was arrived at simply by the paint used but I cannot remember which one that was now!

[Face]

I dropped it off at my friend's body shop and had him paint them with some sort of high fill primer and automotive paint. TBH, they didn't come out all that well. They look great from the listening position, but up there's some imperfections and the edges sucked in some paint. Fortunately, it only cost me the wholesale price of the primer or I would have been really upset. At some point I'll bring them to someone else to respray them.

[dwk]

I really want to get these wrapped and move on to the NHT Xds crossover build; will try those out at the girlfriend's.

Not to hijack too much, but what are you planning for woofers for the Xds? I remember seeing your xover schematic, but not a full description of the plans for the system. I "cheaped out" and am running my Xds with a pair of RSS-210 in 1 cu ft sealed each. Very happy with the results, although pretty sad that this is my uber-high-end system whereas it's your 'relegate to the girlfriends place' system.....

[JonMarsh]

Not to hijack too much, but what are you planning for woofers for the Xds? I remember seeing your xover schematic, but not a full description of the plans for the system. I "cheaped out" and am running my Xds with a pair of RSS-210 in 1 cu ft sealed each. Very happy with the results, although pretty sad that this is my uber-high-end system whereas it's your 'relegate to the girlfriends place' system.....

Too many possibilities! Have Aurasound 10's, Aurasound 12's, some odds and ends of RS series sub drivers, even a HE-15 NOS in box.

Given her preferences for size, probably a pair of the Aurasound 10's side to side, on opposite sides of box, haven't decided on box alignment yet. Might even wind up being a PR for size reasons.

[JonMarsh]

In the slow work takes time, especially when you have little time for work

Well, first weekend since the 4th I've been able to dredge up any spare time- usually been on business travel on Sundays, and getting ready for it on Saturdays.

And since a picture is worth a few hundred words at least, these should speak for themselves?





My hole hog out phenolic jig worked fine, and using a rebate bit with Bosch colt router with the speed turned all the way down, cutting the new rebates was a walk in the park. The old threaded inserts were backed out, and the holes filled with system three Wood scalp, a two part wood filler that works more like an epoxy material, but feels like modeling clay. Best to use latex or nitrile gloves, though, kiddies!

And though the woofer rebate edges are not quite the seamless smooth arcs an original cut one with router would be, they're so close I won't have any trouble living with them in the living room, I think.

Oh, and yeah, it is necessary to use a router and hog out a bit of the brace board; the rear of the magnetic assembly on the SS woofer is just jutting up against the board, and without the relieve, the pole piece vent would be blocked.

I'm working on modifying the base plates now, and creating a new entry plate.

[---k---]

Wow. I missed or forgot how thick that baffle is. That's crazy! :T
No concerns about the back of the driver being able to breathe?

[Silversmoky]

Looking good Jon! I love the look of those Scans and they should look great together with the Accuton mid and Scan Be Tweeter. Can't wait to see these all complete again with the new woofs.

[JonMarsh]

Designed for breathing...

Wow. I missed or forgot how thick that baffle is. That's crazy! :T
No concerns about the back of the driver being able to breathe?

The measured response and "breathing" for the ER18RNX was OK, and with the design of the SS illuminators and it's small neodymium magnet, will be even better I believe. The baffle is built up of a contoured set of panels, and the mounting panel for the woofer is smaller in diameter than the pass through holes- it's done with an LBL plank. All is beveled and contoured- though it's hard to see the design from the photo- the construction PDF's make it pretty clear.

No effects seen like the Seas Excel 5" in the NHT Xds cabinets, for example. It doesn't hurt that the frequency range of interest is only up to 800 Hz, with nominal crossover point of about 350.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding....

[Bear]

What about the C79? Did you end up having the open up the baffle (contour?) around it? Also, I don't recall what it's internal volume is. I 'd expect only a liter or three, but it looks like you might not even have that much in some of the photos once all of the structure is taken into account.

It may be time for me to take a refresher read! :T

[JonMarsh]

This cross section should explain....

This is the cross section view of the top layer, which is 1" consisting of 1/4" HDF and 3/4" LBL. Midrange and woofer cut outs are back beveled.



Midrange enclosures behind the front baffle



CAD 3D render, showing front baffle and midrange enclosure




Back bevel kind of "visible" in this picture, too.



The ideal front plate material for the C79 is probably the 1/2" phenolic tool plate I bought at Woodcraft recently, for making the woofer hole hog out fixture. This was very dense and hard, more like plex almost than phenolic.

[JonMarsh]

After discussing the merits of the 6640 tweeter in the parallel thread, I decided to take a plunge and ordered a couple for my forthcoming überspeaker.
Then, I started reading this thread, and decided that it's got to be coincidental, that this speaker that Jon is building is rather similar to what I had in mind - except for the double woofer. Nice work!!!
:T
Here's what I have so far:

Keep us posted as you make progress!

[Bear]

Thanks, Jon!

[JonMarsh]

This has been the opposite of summer camp this year...

well, how did it wind up being September 13, and I'm in Cleveland for the ICSCRM 2011 conference (International Conference on Silicon Carbide and Related Materials), gave my paper yesterday, but have a six hour seminar finish preparing by the end of the month, and when I go back and check, realize I haven't had a day off since July 4.


The modified Ardent is on a portable workbench in the middle of the living room to remind me I need to be working on this "soon". I guess soon will be October some time.

Even my boss and the VP of our division realize how jacked up this is; they did throw a bone to me with a substantial discretionary bonus last month, but still, this is BSC, and I don't mean baffle step correction this time! We have a new young guy with a PhD just started this week; he's based on the East Coast, and will be coming out for some training in the early part of October. He seems to have some good chops in the low voltage converter stuff, and a number of published papers; he's an IEEE member, as I am. I've got my fingers crossed.

After listening to the Ardents for most of the spring, going back to the Modula Xtremes was something of a mixed bag- more guts in the bottom end after a fashion, but just not the same resolving power. No question I need to start planning an Isis like build for those mids and woofers, and think about what to go with for treble- right now, I can't hear anything I don't like with the Beryllium SS 6640, but I keep wondering what the Raal 140-15D works like- any of you guys get your hands on one and do anything with it? The power handling in the lower range seems like it could be an issue.

Well, Cleveland is cool and cloudy- flew out here Sunday, unfortunately the cheap flights leave gawd awful early. I think I'd say that my "weekend" this last week was actually last Thursday morning, when I rode up to Petaluma for a customer visit at Enphase Energy, and had lunch at my favorite Thai restaurant in the Bay Area, "Sea Thai Bistro".



I did like the new Helibar handlebar mounts I'd put on a couple of weeks ago but haven't had time to really test- the 75 miles or so to Petaluma was quite nice,even over the windy Carquenas bridge. Saturday was packing and reports- didn't feel any different from a Friday.

With regards to the Ardent upgrade, I need to finish fabricating the new test base for the cabinet for crossover connections with a sealed configuration; then remount the drivers and spend some time on the woofer crossovers and fine tuning the balance for the Scanspeak woofers. Next time I post I promise to have some progress to report! ops:

[peepaj]

Jon, glad to see you finely hired someone to maybe help ease the load. although I thought you said you were looking for a couple of new people.
Wish I would have known you were going to be in cleveland, I would have driven over for a chance to pick your brain over dinner. And of course I would let your company buy me dinner :B All kidding aside maybe you can get back to building speakers and chasing your GF around the house.

[Hank]

Jon, congrats on your new hire - I was thinking you might be getting close to the breaking point.

[CraigJ]

I keep wondering what the Raal 140-15D works like- any of you guys get your hands on one and do anything with it? The power handling in the lower range seems like it could be an issue.

Glad to see you out on the bike again and sincerely hope you get some extra time to play in October. I'd be more than happy to send you one of my Raals when you get the time to measure or you could do a road trip to Thomas's and measure his. Feel free to send a pm if intested.

You still have time for a girlfriend?

Craig

[gbegland]

Not happy with 140-15 below about 3KHz. Prefer it closer to 3.5KHz. I seem to always end up with tweeter about an octave above their manufacturers minimum recommendation. Good thing the Neo10 is happy up there and you can get the two close together.

I'll be interested to see what you think. I started out down around 2KHz and just kept bumping it up. I'll take the compromise of running the mids a little too high in place of a nice, smooth blend at xover. Check the measurements I posted last year in the Driver section.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37258

Greg

[JonMarsh]

Greg, thanks for directing me to your post on those measurements. It's about what I expected- what slopes are you using at 3.5 kHz? My "problem" is the Duelund crossover I like so much; it requires a tweeter with a little more cojones down low, as the slope is ultimately 4th order but looks more like LR2 in the crossover region.

Hey Craig!

Not enough time, fortunately she's pretty busy, too. But we did just setup air travel for a vacation we plan to take next May, a Sierra Club gig in Europe billed as "Hiking from Vienna to Prague". You don't actually hike all that way, just 5-7 miles at selected areas along the path over a 10 day period- it should be pretty fun, though we probably need to step up our "training"; we did a few hikes in the spring, but time and weather have conspired to limit that this summer. At least I can do my elliptical trainer and exercise bike in air conditioned comfort any time of the year, and I've gotten religious about getting in an hour every day. Figure it might be an opportunity to do some photography, too, so I'm looking into some new Pentax lenses or maybe a camera upgrade. Depends on how kind Infineon is the end of the year.

I may hit you up later in the fall about the Raal- I'm pretty booked up right now with work through mid October.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, glad to see you finely hired someone to maybe help ease the load. although I thought you said you were looking for a couple of new people.
Wish I would have known you were going to be in cleveland, I would have driven over for a chance to pick your brain over dinner. And of course I would let your company buy me dinner :B All kidding aside maybe you can get back to building speakers and chasing your GF around the house.

Yeah, that would have been a welcome break from the semiconductor types! Last time ICSCRM was in the US, it was in Pittsburgh, but that WAS six years ago!

[peepaj]

No talk about semiconductors as I know zip about them. I work around electricity all day or night but in a little different capacity. Think crew chief in a powerhouse working rotating shifts. But speakers, music, stereo equipment, photography would work. Oh pittsburgh is about the same drive as cleveland or buffalo from where I'm at.

[gbegland]

I have generally been going straight to LR4, but am about to begin experimenting with other slopes. Got a new laptop and need to get the Digmoda software and Arta loaded back up.

Greg

PS, if anyone needs Raals, I should be making an order soon and can never use them all myself.

[TacoD]

Raal 140-15 is in my ears a very nice tweeter also below 3.5 kHz! Did a Audiotechnology 8" Flex 2-way with it.

[JonMarsh]

Raal 140-15 is in my ears a very nice tweeter also below 3.5 kHz! Did a Audiotechnology 8" Flex 2-way with it.

Interesting!

Well, maybe I should just bite the bullet and order a pair when I know I'll have a bit of free time and can fabricate some different test baffles- one quasi infinite baffle, and a few with the likely / possible baffle shapes that I may use in the upcoming system- that's the kicker, how does it work in a format close to what I'd use it in?

The kicker might be an electronic prototyping in a two way, maybe using one of the relatively wide band Vifa 6-1/2's I've got around, as it would allow some experimentation over a wider crossover range.



NE180W





(both of the above are in cabinet (small) measurements, not infinite baffle, so they exhibit LF baffle step fall off).

From the Northern CA DIY, a certain assembled on the spot with clamps two way with DCX2496 for crossover sounded remarkably good (a tip of the hat and nod to JonP for the most innovative transport and assembly process I've seen for speakers in a small vehicle!), and remarkably free of all the sonic idiosyncrasies I usually associate by reference with past systems I've heard with the DCX, leading me to wonder if some of the problems with those systems weren't self inflicted in other areas, such as system design, source components, etc. Source signal was my Mac Mini music server and Metric Halo LIO-8 multi-channel DAC, then converted by the DCX A/D. Was boogie worthy on SACD ripped Elton John ( A well known Gun) and Jacque Loussier Play Bach (a live cut). BTW, JonP's two way towers just sounded very nice and fun.

But that leads me to conclude that evaluating the Raal's in a simple two way with electronic crossover prototyping should be quite feasible, especially with the surplus of amplification I have lying around. Have to give that some thought....

[TacoD]

Interesting project, buy these raals before they are not affordable any more (full and I mean full of neo magnets).

My last project contains a Scanspeak Be, and I have to say that the Raal is not outperformed by the Scan. For me the Raal is still more airy sounding on high SPL (and more natural, but that is subjective ...)

[JonMarsh]

Interesting project, buy these raals before they are not affordable any more (full and I mean full of neo magnets).

My last project contains a Scanspeak Be, and I have to say that the Raal is not outperformed by the Scan. For me the Raal is still more airy sounding on high SPL (and more natural, but that is subjective ...)

Thanks for the feedback. So far, the Scanspeak Be is my favorite dome tweeter under $1K. Not suggesting it's the end all, but it's a reference for me, especially in it's reproduction of certain types of percussion and brass instruments, and the more unusual sorts of metal percussion instruments.

Certainly makes the Raal something I should seriously check out! And before neodymium prices go any higher! And they look cheap compared with D20N-6-31.

[Jed]

Thanks for the feedback. So far, the Scanspeak Be is my favorite dome tweeter under $1K. Not suggesting it's the end all, but it's a reference for me, especially in it's reproduction of certain types of percussion and brass instruments, and the more unusual sorts of metal percussion instruments.

Certainly makes the Raal something I should seriously check out! And before neodymium prices go any higher! And they look cheap compared with D20N-6-31.

Hi Jon,

I'm sure at some point you'll try the RAAL ribbon tweeters because it's in your blood, but the Scan Be tweeter in my experience is very different in its presentation of detail. I find the Be tweeter to have excellent dynamics, but a little more in your face than the more laid back quality of the RAAL. However, interestingly the RAAL has all the detail one could ask for, just it's presented more subtly. Perhaps because of its different radiation pattern than a dome tweeter.

They are just so different in character, but I like them both for different types of music. If we only could have a dozen or more systems for each genre of music!

Jed

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

I'm sure at some point you'll try the RAAL ribbon tweeters because it's in your blood, but the Scan Be tweeter in my experience is very different in its presentation of detail. I find the Be tweeter to have excellent dynamics, but a little more in your face than the more laid back quality of the RAAL. However, interestingly the RAAL has all the detail one could ask for, just it's presented more subtly. Perhaps because of its different radiation pattern than a dome tweeter.

They are just so different in character, but I like them both for different types of music. If we only could have a dozen or more systems for each genre of music!

Jed

Thoughtful comments, Jed, and appreciated. Yeah, I can dig the multiple systems and listening room ideal- at the least, I'd probably do one for pop/rock/fusion jazz, and another for classical and acoustic jazz. sure would like to have just one that does it all, but you've nailed it about the presentation thing- it's an interesting thing to note too, between the waveguide "successes" I've done versus the SS Be tweeter, and versus the better versions of the Accuton diamond, such as those made for Kharma Exquisite series.

Well, I'll have to give this some more thought, but I have the feeling I should pick a candidate and order a pair sometime this fall after things slow down a bit.

[sdl2112]

Jon, I've been meaning to post some info on some work in progress...not ready for prime time...but I wanted to share in case there is interest. I think I have OCD with waveguides lately Long story but I wanted to see how the Scanspeak Be would mate with the Jantzen WG.

I didn't realize the faceplate was so concave or else I may not have taken the plunge. Luckily this Felt had the perfect ID and thickness...how often does that happen? Well here's some teaser info.



The tweeter sealing was suspect to me so I built a sealed rear cover.



Close up of the tweeter/WG



Standard Scanspeak Be on IEC baffle 0-15-30-45-60deg



Scanspeak Be w/Jantzen WG on IEC baffle 0-15-30-45-60deg

[JonMarsh]

Very interesting, and thanks for sharing! Now I've got ANOTHER option to ponder!

And what's interesting about what you've done here, is that I'd say it's the first really successful (based on measurements) implementation with a hard dome tweeter that measures well without some out of phase resonances really messing up something somewhere in the 10-14 kHz area.

Two piece clamshell rear cover- very nice! :T Did you just use a router to fabricate the pieces, for doing the hollowing out? Looks like the kind of thing that could be done on a lathe, but I don't have one.

Might be fairly effective with a 3000-3500 Hz crossover point....

Thanks again for the intriguing input and the link to the felt ring! :B :T

It doesn't hurt that I've got three pairs of the Jantzen waveguides on hand. And I still haven't gotten around to the Ciare MT320! Now if only I could find the dark lord to pitch in on some cabinet construction for testing, but he's been off in the old Imperial sector again on Sith business. It wouldn't be THAT hard to appropriate one of the small PE cabs I've got lying around and do a new front baffle for testing- I even have enough LBL around to go that route if desired.

[sdl2112]

Yes, I just used a router for the tweeter housing parts. Not too difficult but tedious. I also milled the waveguide base to make the transition smoother, it reduced some of the HF ripple. I think the original ID was 43.5mm mine is now 45mm.





I also purchased a Ciare MT320. It looked so promising but my results don't bare that out. I assumed if the Audax TW034 that Troels used works the MT320 being of similar profile would also work. The fit was very good as shown below.



I didn't go too far with testing because of the results but here the red curve is standard tweeter on IEC baffle, blue and green with Jantzen WG, IEC baffle, 0deg off axis and cyan 15deg off axis. I also discovered there is room for improvement with the rear chamber damping. The dome rests on a "pillow" of damping material. This didn't make sense to me as during compression (dome moving inward) would have a different force as when it moves outward. This sounds like a recipe for distortion. I measured with and without the dome pad and sure enough distortion was much lower w/o the dome pad. I can post result but I am already hijacking this thread...sorry.



One last thing. I also adapted the Jantzen WG to the D2608. I used a PVC reducer. The ID was perfect to the ID of the D2608 faceplate ID. I can show more detail if interested. Below in the finished pair...I said I became a little obsessed

[5th element]

Speaking as someone who is also very interested in wave-guides, I don't think Jon would consider it too off topic if some extra measurements were shown. After all you have just done the equivalent of whetting our appetites, it would seem a shame not to give us the main course!

The response irregularities in the top octave, where the wave-guide somehow appears to lose its ability to control directivity, showing as a bunching up of the off axis plots to the on axis are of a concern. I've seen this with a number of tweeters I've attached to wave-guides, but not known how to go about sorting it out. It seems that you managed this quite successfully with the scan BE tweeter, with it perhaps showing some signs of it at around 19/20khz in the far off axis, but certainly better then what I've accomplished with the D2608 in a monacor wave-guide.



The angles taken here weren't measured, but the trend is obvious and Jon's own measurements with the D2608 in the MCM wave-guide showed a similar thing - not quite as bad as mine show it, but the frequency at which it occurs is roughly the same too. What is it do you think that causes this?

[JonMarsh]

Hey guys, as far as I'm concerned, this is all great discussion and I really appreciate the sharing and discussion! :T

More detail on the D2608 is welcome, and thanks for the updates on how you handled the SS Be tweeter and the chamber construction. Looks like another DW621 or a close relative.

Well, what interesting developments to find out about!

[sdl2112]

Yep, it's a DW621...here it is along with the obligatory bike pic.



I had a little trouble with the D2608 in the MCM WG and Jantzen WG with the on axis HF wiggle (btw, the Jantzen an MCM produce essentially the same response). I tried every conceivable iteration from duplicating Jon's technique to many others. Below is typical. 0-15-30deg.



To adapt the D2608 to the Jantzen WG, I milled the inner faceplate to create a flat surface, chamfered the ID of the flange end of a PVC reducer and milled to the correct height. Kind of hard to explain.



Here the reducer is set up ready to chamfer the ID with a router chamfer bearing bit.



Turned over and milled to height the adapter is ready to place as shown in the third pic.

[JonMarsh]

Yep, it's a DW621...here it is along with the obligatory bike pic.



I had a little trouble with the D2608 in the MCM WG and Jantzen WG with the on axis HF wiggle (btw, the Jantzen an MCM produce essentially the same response). I tried every conceivable iteration from duplicating Jon's technique to many others. Below is typical. 0-15-30deg.



To adapt the D2608 to the Jantzen WG, I milled the inner faceplate to create a flat surface, chamfered the ID of the flange end of a PVC reducer and milled to the correct height. Kind of hard to explain.



Here the reducer is set up ready to chamfer the ID with a router chamfer bearing bit.



Turned over and milled to height the adapter is ready to place as shown in the third pic.

Yeah, this is what we call hard core DIY- your explanation makes sense to me.

And between your DeWalt tools and the Ducati, your garage is certainly properly equipped! :W

For me, creating a 3D model in Shark really helps with visualization and figuring out how to fabricate. Your efforts are definitely tenacious!

Based on these inputs, in the spare time I don't have in the next month or two I'm going to have to try to do a SS Be waveguide build and cabinet test. I've got a few 22 liter PE cabinets in storage, and one setup for testing the Jantzen waveguide already, so I'm a bit of the way there already. I think some electronic prototyping will be in order before I put the revised Ardents back together.

[Beau]

Some pics of my version, finally done..

[Beau]

And another. ( note the custom bass trap in front)

[Beau]

Last one..

[JonMarsh]

Cool, Beau! I bet you're mighty pleased to have these up and running! Though I think that custom bass trap is likely to get "blown away" in the breeze when you really fire those up! :T

[Face]

Beautiful!

[Hdale85]

Those are awesome!

[Generic George]

Some pics of my version, finally done..

Very interesting design. It has a lot of what I'm looking for in a pair of Uber-mains.

Are those 12" AE woofers wt the 15 passive radiators?
Is there a build thread for this design somewhere?

[sdl2112]

Beau, Very Nice! I especially like the baffles and the white really highlights the drivers. Any measurement and design details?

[Silversmoky]

Very nice!

[CraigJ]

Sure got some talented engineers on this page. sdl, very nice work and writeup, pays to be somewhat obsessed.

FYI, if you are not following the diy waveguide thread at PE, D. Rose is offering waveguides with baffles for approx. $75/par to fit PE boxes. I'm assuming D. Rose can replicate whatever waveguide you desire (within size limits). Pretty cool I think: