Another Wavecor Ardent build

[BobEllis]

Thanks. And yes, the edges are sharp. I need to round them over a bit. :lol:

[JonMarsh]

Looking good, Bob!

I was moving mine around today, going to do some correlation measurements with a new test setup and software, and thought to myself, "Hey, the lacquer on these finally fully hardened! Finally!"

No Deft lacquer next time... I may even strip these and redo with the General Finishes stuff you guys recommended for the GF's subwoofer- that worked very well! :T

[TEK]

Looking great Bob.
Looking forward to see them both in the finished state with drivers and all - guess you do as well ;-)

[BobEllis]

When the time comes it's General Finishes for me.

The smooth surface worked - I can get 20" of vacuum on the bag using 2" blue tape on the already veneered surface. Using the mastic on the baffle face since there's not enough width to get a good seal. Top and bottom facets going simultaneously. As warm as it's going to be I should have the veneer applied by Friday.

Here's the setup

[Steve Manning]

Nice Bob ...... I can imagine your happy to be able to get back at it. Can't wait to see how the veneer turns out.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. Had to go south of you to work them. Visiting my Dad in NC and brought them with me. Heading home Saturday, hoping to be ready for finish sanding.

[flamethrower1]

Where did you get the veneer from if you don't mind me asking?

[sdl2112]

Glad to see you working on these again. The veneer looks great and I look forward to see how the GF finish looks.

-Scott

[Steve Manning]

Thanks, Steve. Had to go south of you to work them. Visiting my Dad in NC and brought them with me. Heading home Saturday, hoping to be ready for finish sanding.

That's one way to get it done ..... we have had some decent weather for a while already around here. Has been helpful to get stuff done out in the garage that's for sure.

[BobEllis]

It's a "freak" maple burl veneer from veneersupplies.com. I think it's "freak" because it has light and dark colors. Maple burl from the same source is available light or dark.

I should be able to get it ready to shoot before I head out on another week long trip. Getting so close I can taste it. Or is that epoxy dust? If using epoxy, do any sanding within a day of application. It gets much harder over the next week even though it appears fully cured in a day. This stuff is a bear - sandpaper lasts maybe 5 minutes.

[JonMarsh]

For reference, due to value availability, I've ordered 4.0 mH to check. Simulation looks good... 3.9uF on the tweeter.

Testing today shows that is not the way to go... 5.6 looks best.

I've got a new computer audio interface cum mic preamp, (Tascam USB) and some new adapters and cables, and I'm thinking that I'm seeing some high frequency stuff a bit differently with the newer setup (including finally getting up to speed with Fuzzmeasure 4 in the whole mix- it's probably easier to learn if you haven't spent 5+ years on Fuzzmeasure 3). I'm still not totally charmed with it; it does level check based on the convolution calculation, but you can't preset it the way you could FM3, and with default windowing and times and peak levels in the 90's, it's still complaining- yet when you go in measurement by measurement and edit the window setup, everything is fine. Fortunately this version does support microphone calibrators in a straight forward way.

Also have a new BNC to XLR adapter for feeding the condenser mic interface into the preamp. Seeing good HF response and an ultrasonic peak in the tweeter now, too.

next step is correlation testing with the Audio Precision. Step by step...


Ultimate outcome?

I will probably order new Awg14 L1 and L2 from Erse direct, to lower insertion loss for the woofer, and adjust the midrange and tweeter padding based on another 0-60 degree analysis with the updated measurement setup. I did do a full polar set today full range with the new setup, will do that again with the AP and compare.

Man, this is getting to be like a day job! :W

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the effort Jon. I can't believe how many balls you are juggling. That's why I hadn't asked for an update. Take your time. I'm probably 3-4 weeks away from wanting to assemble the crossovers.

[dar47]

All this measuring for the new Ardents, wonder if the first version will get any tweets? Bob must be great getting back at it and bit by bit your methods are working out. Love the look of that veneer!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the effort Jon. I can't believe how many balls you are juggling. That's why I hadn't asked for an update. Take your time. I'm probably 3-4 weeks away from wanting to assemble the crossovers.

I did get the AP measurement done, it correlates pretty well with the "new" Fuzzmeasure setup.

I'm thinking that what I'll do is a full remeasuring on and off axis on a polar series, since the crossover is on the bottom, it's not THAT hard for me to get to things, but it will be time consuming. But, anything doing is worth doing again, right? :W

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the effort Jon. I can't believe how many balls you are juggling. That's why I hadn't asked for an update. Take your time. I'm probably 3-4 weeks away from wanting to assemble the crossovers.

I did get the AP measurement done, it correlates pretty well with the "new" Fuzzmeasure setup.

I'm thinking that what I'll do is a full remeasuring on and off axis on a polar series, since the crossover is on the bottom, it's not THAT hard for me to get to things, but it will be time consuming. But, anything doing is worth doing again, right? :W

Next two weekends may be tough to get to this, though, as Devil Mountain run is next weekend, and GF's trip to snow with Masha the weekend after. Actually, it's the Sunday/Monday/Tuesday, not the weekend, so that may get nixed for me anyway. If it goes down that way, then working Sunday after next on this should be doable, and peaceful with all the other critters off the ranch!

[BobEllis]

Whatever fits your schedule, Jon. I'm eager, but since this project started collecting supplies back in December '14 if it takes a little longer it really doesn't matter.

[JonMarsh]

OK, just a measurements to post before finishing cleaning up-

These two are the closest to good correlation, though both the cabinet and microphone were moved a bit (to do the work on the crossover in the cabinet base) so LF correlation is not an issue= I was more interested in 400Hz and up anyway.


AudioPrecision, no smoothing, short gate




Fuzz measure, no smoothing, also a short gate, but not exactly the same





Just for fun, another FM with more conventional smoothing, at 1/24 octave.





I'm seeing some trends here that I think I want to address, as regards midrange to upper end balance. Should be straight forward, but to be "rigorous" I'd like to go back and re-do the individual driver measurements, setup in VituixCAD, and see how it shakes out in that before tweaking any parts.

Stay tuned.... it's the Ardent Channel!

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. Hopefully after all that work there will be more than two of us building SW223BD02 Wavecor Ardents.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks, Jon. Hopefully after all that work there will be more than two of us building SW223BD02 Wavecor Ardents.

I'll be adding to the list with the Ardent - S which has the 02's as well as the other drivers.

[BobEllis]

Well, this is frustrating. Pulled the bag off to find the veneer had slipped on both facets. The lower left a huge gap, could not be salvaged. The upper was ok except for an inch or so with a barely noticeable from 6" away gap. That was until I tried to trim the overhanging edge. Wild grain means wild internal stresses and a huge chip came out. Ok, both facets have to come off. Set my plane to barely take a solid shaving and still managed to take chunks out of the LBL. Now I have to fill that.

Lesson here: position the speaker so that gravity will pull in a direction to make an overlap with the previously veneered surface.

So going to do facets on the other speaker, and mix plenty of fine sawdust into the leftover epoxy to make a filler. That will also be used to glue the grill magnets in place. Guess I won't quite be ready to finish sand when I get home.

[TEK]

Sorry to hear about that Bob.
Veneerin can really be a bitch - and when stuff goes south its often not mutch you can do than start over again.
The really aweful part is when you also figure out that "oh, no! I don't have enough veneer to fix this"

[Steve Manning]

Well, this is frustrating. Pulled the bag off to find the veneer had slipped on both facets. The lower left a huge gap, could not be salvaged. The upper was ok except for an inch or so with a barely noticeable from 6" away gap. That was until I tried to trim the overhanging edge. Wild grain means wild internal stresses and a huge chip came out. Ok, both facets have to come off. Set my plane to barely take a solid shaving and still managed to take chunks out of the LBL. Now I have to fill that.

Lesson here: position the speaker so that gravity will pull in a direction to make an overlap with the previously veneered surface.

So going to do facets on the other speaker, and mix plenty of fine sawdust into the leftover epoxy to make a filler. That will also be used to glue the grill magnets in place. Guess I won't quite be ready to finish sand when I get home.

That so sucks Bob ..... that lbl does love to chip and tear out, doesn't it. I'm in the process of filling voids myself ..... slow work. Hang in there, I know it's going to look great when your done.

[Renron]

Jon, you are one dogged individual! And we're all thankful for that! Thanks for your continued hard work and the updates on the FR data you've collected.
Q: What / why is the big dip @ 4100kH?

Bob, Glad to see you back at it. Too bad about the veneer slipping. Any way to temp. tape it in place while pulling a vacuum?

I should be able to start my Sapele veneer soon too.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Jon, you are one dogged individual! And we're all thankful for that! Thanks for your continued hard work and the updates on the FR data you've collected.
Q: What / why is the big dip @ 4100kH?

Bob, Glad to see you back at it. Too bad about the veneer slipping. Any way to temp. tape it in place while pulling a vacuum?

I should be able to start my Sapele veneer soon too.
Ron

Going to be interesting to see that sapele when your done Ron ...... the guy at the local lumber yard loves that stuff. When I was last in he had a stack of 3" thick boards over 12" wide and 16 feet long of the stuff, needless to say I was drooling.

[BobEllis]

Taping didn't help because there was a little overlap on both edges giving just enough slack. I caught the top facet slip and corrected it but somehow missed the bottom.

The good news is I bought more than enough veneer to do two sets so that's not an issue. Just disappointed that I won't carry the same grain from the sides onto the facets.

Walked away for the day. Beating myself up on the bike on what was scheduled as a result day seemed better than driving myself completely nuts over these

[JonMarsh]

[QUOTE=Renron;613264]Jon, you are one dogged individual! And we're all thankful for that! Thanks for your continued hard work and the updates on the FR data you've collected.
Q: What / why is the big dip @ 4100kH?


I think the issue is that overall from 5 kHz to 15 kHz the system is a bit hot, and what I'm seeing comparing measurements is that with the Konnekt firewire audio interface, with the mic pre turned up, it looks like the HF response is a bit soft, maybe starting at 5 kHz and getting progressively so going higher- I also identified a possible capacitor value issue, with the last round of SIMS.

Net, I think I'm going to completely remeasure before drawing conclusions and proposing updates- and I'm also going to put both the TC Konnekt interface and Tascam on the AP and see what the measured response looks like, for the purpose of comparison.

Funny thing is, I know Troels Graveson has some issue with his setup in HF (soft), by comparing his measurements to mine, and to published ones, and he acknowledges that- but I didn't think I had issues, too.

Should have followed my own advise more carefully- but didn't have the means to until now... "In God We Trust, all others we Verify..."

[BobEllis]

Two facets successfully glued. Nowhere near as much progress as I'd hoped but that's the way it goes with elderly parents needing attention.

I'd worried that five 3/8" x 1/4" neo magnet pairs wouldn't be enough to hold the grills on. I need not have worried. Just two magnets hold these shears pretty well.

[Heli-Tim]

Bob, any progress is good progress...or so I am told, lol. I am looking forward to seeing the finished product! These builds keep me motivated, and educated(to a degree)!

[Renron]

Good to see some progress Bob, Glad to hear 5 pair will be enough. I was concerned also, so I used 7 pair. Guess I can stop worrying about that. Now to find a flat place to unroll the Veneer.
Keep the Pics coming! As Heli Tim says it's good incentive.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Pictures are always good... Always an incentive to all of us!

Once you've played with those little Neo magnets a bit, you stop worrying about whether they'll hold a speaker grill on or not...

[BobEllis]

I guess the reason for my concern is from the grills on my PE .375 ft^3 and 3 ft^3 cabinets. They use a piece of steel on the grill and are rather easily knocked out of place. Guess they aren't using neo, and magnet to magnet will be stronger.

[Renron]

Magneto a Magneto.....................ops:

[BobEllis]

Travel has ended, to my granddaughter's chagrin. The good news is I'm back at the Ardents. I should be able to get the large facets veneered before having to return to civilization Tuesday. I hope to be spraying the first weekend in June.

Glad to get back to it, but the clatter of the vacuum pump is spoiling the quiet. Last night as our steaks hit the grill I heard the cows 3/4 of a mile away start mooing. Their attempt at a guilt trip didn't work.

Proof of progress picture.

[JonMarsh]

Dang... Guilt tripping cows, must be a tough neighborhood.. :W

Proof of work, that's for sure... :T

[BobEllis]

Rediscovered the power of the scraper this morning. Well, at least using an old metal outlet cover as a scraper. Forgot the putty knife I'd been using to remove the mastic, and being an old house I found a stack of outlet covers that had not been well de-burred. Worked like a champ removing the mastic and cleaned up some epoxy drips in the process. It even did as well as my block plane trimming the facet veneer. Had I sharpened it a bit I bet I would be able to use the edge as is. Stiffer than a normal scraper I was more confident at the edges.

Cabinet scrapers, we should all have and use them.

[Steve Manning]

Rediscovered the power of the scraper this morning. Well, at least using an old metal outlet cover as a scraper. Forgot the putty knife I'd been using to remove the mastic, and being an old house I found a stack of outlet covers that had not been well de-burred. Worked like a champ removing the mastic and cleaned up some epoxy drips in the process. It even did as well as my block plane trimming the facet veneer. Had I sharpened it a bit I bet I would be able to use the edge as is. Stiffer than a normal scraper I was more confident at the edges.

Cabinet scrapers, we should all have and use them.

+1 on that Bob ...... I've also found these to be super useful as well. They have carbide blades so they keep an edge a lot longer than a standard scraper does. Either way, I've been using scrapers a lot on my project.

[BobEllis]

Another proof of work shot. It's turning out a little cooler than forecast so 2 500W halogen bulbs are creating a little extra warmth. This is the last of the large facets on the first cabinet. The other has one pair of large facets complete.

Mastic on the narrow surfaces, with a couple inches of smooth surface to seal against blue tape does the trick. Once under vacuum the blue tape isn't needed. I'm using 3.5 mil vinyl sheet instead of the 30 mil Joe Woodworker sells. I bought the thick stuff, but it seemed like it would be difficult to seal on these tight corners. I can get a couple uses out of the thin stuff, and it's cheap enough that I don't care if it gets torn. I'll use the thick stuff for larger surfaces.

[Renron]

Nice work Bob, your moving along very nicely. I'm anxious to see them with a complete wrap.
Looks like a Borg. Don't turn your back on it!

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Quite a bit of craftsmanship and thought to make that process work, but you're definitely moving the ball down the field. :T

[BobEllis]

And Jon has a new favorite phrase.

The seam is pretty tight. I still need to sand the surfaces for finish, but I suspect it will almost disappear.

[TEK]

Just take care when sanding - it's very easy to sand trough the veneer on the edges (don't ask how I know that...).
And the dust that you sand off - you might want to keep a pile of that to fix issues later on.

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the heads up, TEK. I figure 150 or 220 grit may take a while but should minimize the risk.

[Steve Manning]

Looking good Bob :T Looking forward to seeing how they look when you get some finish on them.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. We both are looking forward to that.

It will be something like this epoxy bleed through.

[BobEllis]

Will wonders never cease? A progress prediction actually came true for the first time this build. All of the large facets are veneered. That leaves the top, top facet and face veneer to go. Tomorrow I will trim the edges so I'll be ready to go when I return. Just five more days of veneering. A day or two of prep and I start spraying.

Hoping to be listening to these by July. That may be active, but the passive crossover should follow shortly.