Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build

[dar47]

Looking Good :T

Although it was fun doing ours CNC (first time). I kind of wise I had the chance to do a set by hand, haha. Enjoy looks like a lot of fun you guys are having.

[TEK]

Do you use saw or router for your dados?
See that you seems to have a nice saw in tha background. I'm a bit curious about what kind of saw you are using!

[JonMarsh]

Another possible technique (one I often use) for the dados's is router- I have dadoe blades for doing this, but it seems I can never find them, and a router with a fence guide often is at hand! :lol:

[Renron]

The dado's are cut using a set of blades and knives. Knives are the fewer toothed blades between the outside pair. I also have a shim between the blades for exact size dado. It's a little tight so I might change out the shim to .015" from .010". 6" Oldham carbide dado set ~$50, Fleabay.

The tablesaw is an OLD Delta Unisaw cabinet saw built in 1956 (same as me). I bought it for ~$300 from a guy who worked for the U.S. Forrest Service and retired. He purchased the saw from them. It was a mess when I got it, paint , rust, bad wiring, filthy with grease and pitch. I tore it down completely (not the motor), cleaned everything. Greased it, installed new belts and adjusted everything as best I could. It worked OK with the original tube rail fence. I built a new fence and rail system based on Biesemeyer fences and rails, it's capable of ripping 35". I built a run out gauge and set the fence to blade, in 24" it's within .002". With a 3HP 220V motor nothing slows it down, it went from a Sow's ear to a silk purse. It sits on an adjustable wheels system that locks down when cutting. My kids will have to fight over it when I'm gone. I may finish painting it by then....
One of the best upgrades is the paddle on/off switch from Grizzly, when I finish my rips, I lightly bump it with my left thigh and shut it off, never have to look for the switch! It's a magnetic switch so even if I turn it on when it's unplugged it won't turn on when plugged in, if power is momentarily interrupted, it shuts off. Thanks for letting me brag about my saw.

I need to learn how to adjust the pictures to fit the screen. Advice?

[BobEllis]

A bad case of Table Saw Envy setting in...

[TEK]

Very Nice :-)
If you are thinking about the pictures showing up very small when you see your post first time after posting - it is just a bug in the preview/first load of the page.
If you refresh the page they show up just fine. The one you have attaced of the saw shows it in full with (on my computer at least).

If you use the "insert inline" feature at the bottom of the page when you add a picture you can add the picture within your text instead of just as an attachment.
(on first view it will show up tiny also when you inline the picture - just ignore it - it will show up just fine in the end)

[Renron]

Thanks for the Tip TEk. :lol:
I'll try it out

Edit; changed the screen text size and that fixed my problem, Old tired eyes are used to larger print. I may have to fix that in cleartext.
Ron

[TEK]

Are you planning to change the grill?
If so, is it because you like it better that way or to avoid the sharp edge at the bottom?

[Renron]

No, not planning , just wondering what different grills would look like. I think I like yours better.
Question on the build; do the (3) base plates fit flush with the bottom of the plywood? If so, then do we build the stand tall enough to put the Crossovers inside?

[JonMarsh]

No, not planning , just wondering what different grills would look like. I think I like yours better.
Question on the build; do the (3) base plates fit flush with the bottom of the plywood? If so, then do we build the stand tall enough to put the Crossovers inside?

That is an individual choice- mine are built that way, because I built complete new bases. The Canucks took the easier path, with crossovers mounted internally. I liked the idea of at least a modicum of access for tweaking, even if it required turning the speaker upside down to do so. Maybe only the engineering development test articles need that flexility... :B

[JonMarsh]

The dado's are cut using a set of blades and knives. Knives are the fewer toothed blades between the outside pair. I also have a shim between the blades for exact size dado. It's a little tight so I might change out the shim to .015" from .010". 6" Oldham carbide dado set ~$50, Fleabay.

The tablesaw is an OLD Delta Unisaw cabinet saw built in 1956 (same as me). I bought it for ~$300 from a guy who worked for the U.S. Forrest Service and retired. He purchased the saw from them. It was a mess when I got it, paint , rust, bad wiring, filthy with grease and pitch. I tore it down completely (not the motor), cleaned everything. Greased it, installed new belts and adjusted everything as best I could. It worked OK with the original tube rail fence. I built a new fence and rail system based on Biesemeyer fences and rails, it's capable of ripping 35". I built a run out gauge and set the fence to blade, in 24" it's within .002". With a 3HP 220V motor nothing slows it down, it went from a Sow's ear to a silk purse. It sits on an adjustable wheels system that locks down when cutting. My kids will have to fight over it when I'm gone. I may finish painting it by then....
One of the best upgrades is the paddle on/off switch from Grizzly, when I finish my rips, I lightly bump it with my left thigh and shut it off, never have to look for the switch! It's a magnetic switch so even if I turn it on when it's unplugged it won't turn on when plugged in, if power is momentarily interrupted, it shuts off. Thanks for letting me brag about my saw.

I need to learn how to adjust the pictures to fit the screen. Advice?

This looks OK to me, but then I also have a 4K display. On the Mac, I just use one of the built in programs, called Preview, which can load and view graphic file formats, PDFs, and convert between them, and can also adjust image size- by pixel count or other means. hard to go wrong as a compromise to just make images 1024 or 1200 max in the biggest dimension. Your image here is just 1024 x 576; that's fine, I'd say. (I downloaded it and checked). BTW, if I upload largish images to Photo-bucket, it automatically down converts and compresses them, unfortunately. Makes me feel like theres something wrong with my glasses or photography skills.

[TEK]

No, not planning , just wondering what different grills would look like. I think I like yours better.
Question on the build; do the (3) base plates fit flush with the bottom of the plywood? If so, then do we build the stand tall enough to put the Crossovers inside?

Hmm, not quite sure I get what you think about when you say "fit flush".
This is how I did mine (crossover inside cabinet, not in base):



There are two ways when it comes to placing the crossover. One is fitting it into the base, the other one is to put it inside the speaker itself.
If you want the crossover inside the base you have to build a taller base.

Regular crossover placement is shown here (inside speaker): https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post596115

Here is the base Jon built with the crossover in the base:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41409-Wavecor-Ardent-Journal-the-first-Builds&p=589606&viewfull=1#post589606

And this gives a clue about how Avalon does it (on Indra):

[johngalt47]

Yes, and power sanding with the Porter Cable Jon recommended. Best random orbital I've ever used. That's saying something too.

Ron

Which Porter Cable sander?

[Renron]

Thanks for the info on the photos Jon, exactly what I was asking about. "engineering development test articles need that flexility." That made me laugh. You da Man!

Tek, Oh thank you so much. Perfect photos , absolutely what I wanted to know. You even provided links and a picture of an Indra!!! Whoa. Thanks for the help. They must be inside. Those sure are great looking speakers.

JohnGalt. Nice screen name, we'd get along great! It's a sander that Jon AKA "Doc", recommended to us. Porter Cable model #390. The only place I could find one was from Grizzly tools. After tax just under $100. Worth every penny with quality sandpaper like Mirka.

[Renron]

OK guys, You've helped me out a great deal so far, and I thank you. I've got another question now.
Is there any benefit to adding structure(s) inside the Mid driver's enclosure? ie; louvers ? Too much time to think maybe?
As I'm using a different driver (the SS 6600) the recommended enclosure size is 2 liters, the chamber is 2.5" deep measured from the back of the inner baffle.
Should I just carpet pad it or ??? Help is appreciated.

[dar47]

Is this section for the mid and tweet? The tweet is sealed so no back wave and the space is required for the mid only. I use some 1/2" rigid insulation on the back wall and then everything except the back of the baffle is covered with carpet, the short broadloom kind. Your damping the mids back wave primarily. Some people add some poly fill but I have not heard a difference unless it is over stuffed.

[TEK]

OK guys, You've helped me out a great deal so far, and I thank you. I've got another question now.
Is there any benefit to adding structure(s) inside the Mid driver's enclosure? ie; louvers ? Too much time to think maybe?
As I'm using a different driver (the SS 6600) the recommended enclosure size is 2 liters, the chamber is 2.5" deep measured from the back of the inner baffle.
Should I just carpet pad it or ??? Help is appreciated.

SS 6600 is the tweeter, not the mid. I expect that the volume you are referring to is for the mid - not the tweeter and that the tweeter will not have any volume but just be built into the baffel.
I would think that the volume of the mid-chamber is a result from the crossover calculation, and thus not automatically 2 liter. The space in the picture seems very small - is that 2 liter? Are you sure that there will be enought space for the back of the driver?

What Jon did was to cover the mid-chamber in led.
I covered it with something else (dont remenber the name, 3mm heavy asfalt like stuff for damping sound in cars). You want something that will handle the frequenzy range that the mid-tone work within.
I'm not sure if louvers, as the one on the pictures, will help move the vibration frequency - and there for I'm not sure if it will be any point.
Make sure to get the chamber air tight.
My solution here: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post601614
Jon is there somewhere as well, but I dont have the time to look it up right now.

[Renron]

Oops, my mistake, I meant the SS Mu12/4731T Mid range driver. Sorry. I know the tweeter is completely sealed inside the baffle and it has a sealed rear chamber, so no rear waves from the cabinet to concern us.
I didn't ask my question very well, the wife unit is sick and I was making dinner, not really concentrating on what I was asking. Lesson learned , Sorry for the confusion. MY BAD.

Tek,
I couldn't design a crossover to save my life. I calculated the area to be about 2.5 Liters, extra area for the dampening materials. Thank you for asking about enough room for the back of the driver, good thinking. :T I measured it and it will be just a little bit deeper than the baffle, these are HUGE thick baffles.
The volume of the enclosure is related to the displacement of air by the movement of the cone max +/- and the stiffness of the mechanical and electric suspension. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) The crossover is designed around these measurements and other requirements.

Madisound recommends the volume for my 12Mu mid at 2 liters. The recommended volume for the Accuton C79 is roughly 4 liters. That's why my enclosure volume looks so small in comparison. It will help the Wavecor drivers a tiny bit adding extra volume in their chamber, not enough to notice thou.

My poorly worded question is ; would it be beneficial to attempt to redirect the rear wave inside the enclosure? Perhaps a wedge, like this?
Or should I just dampen it well and not over think this?
What I don't want are the sound waves behind the driver coming back through the front and muddying the sound.
I hope that was clearer.
Thank you all, your help is greatly appreciated.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

My recommendation would be stick to the design as is, use some type of wall damping material; follow that with 3/4" heavy felt, then Acousta Stuff or long fiber wool. Should do the trick.

[Renron]

:T
Thanks Doc!

[Scottg]

The 12MU.. Expensive, but nice.

:yesnod:


I'm kind of :scratchhead: with the "Mid" - in Mid Priced Build though..


..so, I looked over some drivers last night to see what might comport with that ideal - low distortion, high clarity design with sealed box bass.. (..and of course a more moderate component pricing.)

Mid:

Tang Band W3-1797S

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w3-1797s-3-neodymium-midrange-driver--264-888

Linear (up to almost 3 kHz) "exotic" low mass driver with very low linear distortion and non-linear distortion in that passband while also having wide dispersion higher in freq. (like the Accuton).


Bass drivers:

Visaton GF 200

http://www.visaton.com/en/chassis_zubehoer/tiefton/gf200_2x4.html

-though not listed, Parts Express does carry Visaton (..and in Europe its about 100 Euros).

High linear excursion, very low linear and non-linear distortion with an extended higher freq. response. The added bit of efficiency and the extra coil allows for added low freq. extension near the average (..and the extra coil could even be run "active" with a plate amp and "eq'ed" for a better in-room response at the listener's position).


Tweeter:

Transducer Labs N26MGR-A

http://meniscusaudio.com/transducer-n26mgra-p-1512.html

Again, "exotic" driver with low linear and non-linear distortion along with good excursion and a low fundamental resonance.



-perhaps the critical position cap's from Audyn Plus.




..oh well, just something to think about.

[JonMarsh]

Sounds like a great idea, Scott... when will you start your build, and do you want any help with the crossover, if you can do measurements?

Seriously, it's not my intention to be snarky, I'm just grumpy after taking a spill at work due to poor maintenance this week, and really messing up my right hip and knee.

The Visaton woofer looks interesting, I like the idea of dual voice coils and do what you want, but as executed, it either has too low a Qts, (best suited for bass reflex, which I didn't want) or too high (total Qts of 0.77! way more than I would want AFTER putting it in a box, much less before...) XMax is a bit average, too- calculated from front plate and VC length at 6 mm.

Whoa! Just went to the Solen site to double check some specs, and BOY HAVE THEY MODERNIZED! Went from having a site that was a refugee from the 90's to a very modern look and layout! Two thumbs up! :T

Anyway, back on target- the Wavecor is about double the Xmax, and one thing really contributing (IMO) to it's sound, or lack of it, is the balanced drive system, which does seem to really help control 2nd order HD.





The other factor for me is that they modeled beautifully sealed in the same net woofer volume as the original Ardent, which used either Seas or ScanSpeak woofers, two sub versions. But with a lot more capability than those versions had.

So, for me, just as with the original Ardent the C79 was the core item, for the "Wavecor Ardent", well, the Wavecor's are part and parcel. I don't know of anything else that comes close, and I've looked a lot. Certainly not in that volume of cabinet.

Swapping out the tweeter is easier for me to imagine- heck, you could make a decent system even with the 9130 ScanSpeak Discovery series tweeter in there. But it wouldn't be the same as an air circa 6600, and certainly not as the 6640. I'm not making this up, I have all of them and tested and listened to all of them.

I'm curious to see how the little Scanspeak mid works out. As Tang Bands go, I liked the 1337 the best, but you can't get the original version anymore. There's good reasons they were used in the Statements. A lot of bang for the buck, just like all the other parts in them. But would I rather have statements than my Ardents? (I've prototyped one of them just to listen and test) and for me, the answer is no. But they're making a lot of people happy at home... no question about it! I wonder what the impedance bobble at 3.3 kHz is about with the W3-1797S- do you have measurements? How does the distortion look lower down and higher up? Guys on DIYMOBILE say it has a serious response hiccup at 2 kHz; that the 4" version is better. What do you think? Is it audible, or not? Maybe there is some variation in the production behavior of the cones; some people have measured an issue around 2 kHz, but the published plot for impedance suggests something going on around 3 kHz. Some people really like it a lot, especially for the money.

I have several of the Transducer lab tweeters, and have even designed and constructed a dipole using them in a waveguide (not yet finished, some day have to get back to them). I'd certainly entertain them in a budget version of the Ardent if I was doing that myself, but when you consider all the work, cost of crossover, etc, the money saved isn't really worth it to me... though I expect to someone else it might be. The SS tweeters have very low 3rd harmonic distortion at any reasonable level- the TL's have better 2nd, better consistency across the frequency band, but not quite as low THD and IM in the area where the ear is most sensitive. So, what's a guy going to do? I just tested the more expensive Be SS tweeters; even lower 3rd harmonic, and lovely build quality, but I don't know if I'd spring for the extra bucks or not... maybe on a new build, but not to upgrade.

Anyway, I'd better try to get back to doing something useful this afternoon- there's a lot of work-work stacked up I have to deal with this weekend- no speakers for me, just a cookie and HT Guide break! :W

[Renron]

Hey Doc, letting a little of the "Dark" side out? Sorry to hear about your accident at work. It takes us more experienced folks a little longer to come back from a spill. Enjoy your weekend. Eat well.

Scottg, Build it and let us know how it turns out.
My reasons for a "Mid" priced build are, in no specific order;
My lack of high end hearing (I'm sneaking up on 60 and cannot hear crickets in one ear)
The drivers I'm using were on sale at a fantastic price. NOT retail.
$$$ $$$ $$$ , not everyone can afford or wants to afford, ~$1700 + tax + shipping for just the mids and tweeters. Plus $$$ 4 Bad AS$ woofers.
I wanted to build something better than what I have now, Custom redesigned (boxes and XOs )Seas Thor which I really like a lot.
I thought it would be fun and others might be interested in building a lower cost version of this beautiful speaker too.
I'm not using $200 bamboo baffles, keeping the price down where I can.
If I were to build a "Poor mans Ardent" it would be just like Bob's! But then again he's building both. Glutton for punishment.
Ron

[Scottg]

Sounds like a great idea, Scott... when will you start your build, and do you want any help with the crossover, if you can do measurements?

Seriously, it's not my intention to be snarky..

Nah, your "snarky" is better than most people's polite. :B


It was just a "thought" exercise late last night when skimming the various Ardent threads and looking at some of the factors you mentioned in each driver's selection.

Ex.

"Woofer:* Wavecor SW223BD01 - 4 ohm, wired in series:

..highly linear small form factor woofers, which like the Aurasound NS12, straddle the line between a subwoofer and woofer construction, offering a very stiff cone, exceptionally linear motor, and declining distortion up to 1 kHz; this supported creating a sealed alignment with a robust well damped bottom end."


In the same volume the Visaton should have all these qualities.. in fact, my guess is that within at least 4mm's that the Visaton actually has lower distortion through most of it's operating pass-band than the Wavecore. (..this guess is just based on seeing a number of their drivers non-linear performance from several sources, but not actually this woofer's performance - so certainly a caveat.) The midrange and midbass however would be much less "damped" due to the smaller enclosure and a high Qts. (..with 2 drivers single coil's wire in series as you have in the Wavecore Ardent). The low bass (bottom end) however would be well damped - basically riding on the resistance of the suspension more than total system compliance (below 40 Hz). Note that the Volume and Qts of the driver should only effect the upper bass marginally as far as freq. response is concerned - and in fact, along with the midrange dip of the driver, might work out well with the low-pass nature of the design in conjunction with the baffle-step correction (..potentially requiring a less complex electrical network). Of course the low-end wouldn't have the high-pass character of the Wavecore Ardent - BUT that's where the 2nd coil comes in, you could get as much or even more extension from the design via the 2nd coil - though obviously loudness/excursion limited).

As for linear xmax, I'm sure you know that the force curve only plays a part in the driver's non-linear distortion, and driver compliance is often a larger factor with higher excursion. Also, the 6mm calculation is at best a guess, and even its basis is solely with respect to force. Still, I think your right: the Wavecore should have a longer linear stroke, but I'm not sure that matters a great deal at most listening levels (nor makes that large a difference).

In any event, it's moot considering the current pricing of the near alternative of the WAVECOR SW223BD02 at Solen. (..and yeah, Solen's new features make sorting a LOT easier.)

http://solen.ca/products/subwoofers/sw223bd02/

Also, (though I've no idea of the performance of the driver beyond the manufacturer's spec.), there is (in some respects) the more comparable new driver from SB Acoustics:

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/subwoofer/8-sb23mfcl45-4/

The Tangband mid. I thought was interesting for the reasons mentioned. The car people are probably giving their preference due to lower freq. performance (along with loudness), in this design implementation that likely would not be an issue.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/229763-improving-tangband-w3-1797s-flatcone-2.html#post3379263

-Again, just a thought exercise. (..which clearly failed.) :

[Scottg]

Scottg, Build it and let us know how it turns out.


My reasons for a "Mid" priced build are, in no specific order;
My lack of high end hearing (I'm sneaking up on 60 and cannot hear crickets in one ear)
The drivers I'm using were on sale at a fantastic price. NOT retail.
$$$ $$$ $$$ , not everyone can afford or wants to afford, ~$1700 + tax + shipping for just the mids and tweeters. Plus $$$ 4 Bad AS$ woofers.
I wanted to build something better than what I have now, Custom redesigned (boxes and XOs )Seas Thor which I really like a lot.
I thought it would be fun and others might be interested in building a lower cost version of this beautiful speaker too.
I'm not using $200 bamboo baffles, keeping the price down where I can.
If I were to build a "Poor mans Ardent" it would be just like Bob's! But then again he's building both. Glutton for punishment.
Ron

Again, that wasn't the point of the post ("build it and see how it works out") - it was just something to think about with respect to component pricing.

Going from about $1,700 down to just $1000 is still - $1,000! :E

I defy you to call that "mid priced" (along with many of the other costs of the build - even as modified) and be sincere. :W


Call me crazy, but the dense rigid baffle is one of the design items I wouldn't change (..not that it has to be bamboo, but rather altering those qualities to save money). ops: No, really. It can have a rather large impact (literally) on how the system sounds - more than a comparable driver change (depending on the pass-band).

[Renron]

OK, I'll play. (for a while)
As the Original cost of ALL the default drivers as designed by the team is around $3,000 WITHOUT crossovers or wood, my cost of drivers at just over 1/2 of that is what I WOULD call Mid Priced and I did! Madisound has priced the drivers for the Thors (parts only) at $1,700.
There are many levels of speaker building, This design build is at the highest level, not a mid level. THIS IS NOT A MID PRICED SPEAKER!!!
You have confused the two, a mid priced speaker build (which this is not) with a Highest quality speaker built with SLIGHTLY lower quality parts to help keep costs down.
If you don't think that 3" of baltic birch plywood is dense and rigid then what do you think is??? Cripes, even Jon said it should be OK.
If you didn't design it, ...............I'm gonna stop here.
Ron

[Scottg]

You have confused the two, a mid priced speaker build (which this is not)..

If you don't think that 3" of baltic birch plywood is dense and rigid then what do you think is??? Cripes, even Jon said it should be OK..

Ron

Sorry Ron, but the title of the thread is:

Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build

Ex. Is there such a thing as a mid-priced Bugatti?


In any event, I understand what you mean and I'll leave it at that.


Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that your concept was excellent: effectively reducing the total expenditure on the loudspeaker with still near "state of the art" performance for less. What I "pitched" was simply one example of potential component replacement designed to get a bit closer to that "beer budget" you mentioned, while still maintaining that near "state of the art" ability. I don't mind if my "pitch" was a failure, it was just something interesting to do for a late evening. Also, even though a failure, that doesn't invalidate the concept - it's just a good idea and something that seems to be rather ripe for discussion in a thread with a title: "Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build".


As for materials for the baffle:

Brass is generally the best (sort of rigid and compliant at the same time), but to costly.

1/4" Steel-plate on the other hand can be fairly in-expensive. (..it can also be "laminated/layered" cheap sheet metal, which is fairly easy to fabricate yourself - but make sure you were protective gear if doing so to avoid skin cuts/tears. ..yes, it was painful.)

I've used all sorts of materials, but my favorite for value is cement. (..fabricated in a silicone mold, one mold does many baffles)

Note: it doesn't have to be the entire baffle, a large baffle insert works well, and can even be better when partitioned among drivers (..though strangely I get a better effect with bass drivers on the same baffle connection).

Finally, I don't think there is anything wrong with 3" baltic birch - I just don't think,(..know), it will have the same effect as more dense and rigid materials - again, depending on the driver's and their operation.

As far as "OK".. sure it's still going to be more than OK, it's just not going to be the same. (..and again, it begs that eternal question of "can I get more for less?".)

IF I was stuck with my own wood-working skills, I'd probably use layered masonite with a plywood backer (that connects to the rest of the speaker). It's cheap, workable, and it's better than the birch as a connection point for the drivers.

[dar47]

WOW, Ron it's good to see you defend your build title, haha. Your always so gracious, I like this side too!

The title is correct and we are all coming from what we have. Your Thors are nice and to make this effort worth your time and with your available budget I think you did well and you will like. We have to remember Jon started this way back with the Seas woofers, SS6600 tweet, then the 6640 and the Duland xover (with even more parts). This was a Jon special (just for me project and I don't care if you YOYO's build).:W I think 2009!

I loved the cabinet but not keen on a ported version as I already had 2 RS225's in a sealed design. I got crazy excited when we all started looking at the Wavecor's and Jon started thinking sealed alinement. Then he was so busy, and I thought how is this one going to get built especially when the Iris (thank God for the Iris too and the 3rd order xover and lessons learned) and a few others were already in the works. Then he allowed us to build the cabs and squeezed the development time in while doing many other things. So for all of us just to have a few design choices is pretty much a Blessing consider this was a huge under taking and we were lucky he went for the revisit. Come to think of it how many of us cab builders stop to thank all of the designers for their time, energy and knowledge to deliver these wonderful designs. Can't do this with any manufactured speaker!

Scott not sure if you looked through the original Ardent thread, lots of nashing of teeth over choices, haha.

[Renron]

Dar47, Excellent post, thanks for "watching my back" so to speak. I know how much work there is in building a QUALITY design. Everything is a compromise, sometimes bits and pieces just work well together, sometimes they don't.
I don't feel the need to explain anything further, as I feel I have gone out of my way to be polite already. I'm done. It's my project and my thread!
We have a lot going on around the house this week and I'm trying to sell my 5th wheel to pay for the XOs. (jk) I'll post some pictures when I have completed more wood shredding.
Ron

[Scottg]

It's my project and my thread!

Ron

That I didn't quite realize.. (..that it was your specific project thread, despite your current progress - which looks quite nice, btw). Please let me apologize then: I'm sorry. ops:

(Jon as the literal thread-starter, had me thinking this was a bit more general than that - especially given the thread's title.)

[Scottg]

Scott not sure if you looked through the original Ardent thread, lots of nashing of teeth over choices, haha.

Oh, I've never thought it wasn't anything but an excellent choice in drivers, build, execution, etc..

Nor did I ever feel that an alteration wouldn't be at least different, and perhaps lesser in some respects.


As for what is Ron's choice (or is it Jon's?) in the mid., and Ron's choice necessarily with the tweeter..

-I don't think it's going to sound quite the same, but honestly - I think it has the opportunity to sound "*better".

Yes, Ron - I don't think you are working toward a Wavecor Ardent "Mid Priced" (in any context).

I think you have the potential to be working on a Wavecore Ardent Enhanced. :W


(*I say this having heard designs with all 4 drivers - to me the SS Be tweeter sounds a little to focused, resulting in images that are a bit more pin-point than real, even if having higher clarity. The Accuton is similar: higher clarity, but at the expense of "body" - or the ability to render a bit more depth to each "image". Sort of like the difference of using a good (higher impedance) electrostat with a solid-state amp or an OTL. ..to me the latter is preferable and what I deem "better". ..Tough to express in words, but hopefully that gives some idea.)

[Renron]

Thank you Socttg,
I started this thread and Jon preempted my first post with relevant posts from a separate thread, that's why it appears that he is the thread starter. He is the Boss. I'm just a copy cat with shallow (er) pockets. I would call it a handicapped Wavecor Ardent. I hope it sounds good when I finish. Jon has reviewed and approved the drivers I am using. He has measured them and found he could do better, not that these were bad, he just preferred others.
In the context of the ARDENT family. This is a Mid! Using your car analogy, there is no mid priced Porsche because they all cost a lot. I never said this was a mid priced speaker, I said it was a mid priced Ardent. Big difference, even if you refuse to see it.
Ron

[Renron]

I've been busy working on other projects, but I'm back at it with the Ardent. Slow going, but I enjoy the details and I'm in no rush.
I came upon some lead flashing from a roofing project and was able to line the mid- driver chamber. It's about 9x10x3 inches. Plenty of volume for the 4" driver I'm using.
I was considering lining it with felt as Jon has, but the F13 felt is ~$15 for a 1/2"x12"x12". I may just use some carpet foam padding instead. Other Ideas for lining the compartment?
I'd rather put that $ into a higher grade capacitor. Unless I am given a compelling reason not to use the carpet padding I'll move on to that step soon. Should the Woofer chamber walls directly behind the mid chamber be padded or just stuffed with acousti - stuff?
The way I'm building my cabinets, I won't be able to fill it later.
One more question. Wire gauge for the mid woofer? I'm using 18 for the tweeter. 12 for the Woofers
Ron

[dar47]

That's looking good.:T

Is the carpet padding an open cell foam? If not it's not really absorbing anything just taking volume. I found the best bang for buck the 3'x5' short broad loom area rugs at HD ($30),work really well. and sounded consistent compared to all the different foams I've tried. It has a kind of a plastic mesh on the back and it cuts well with a utility knife. Couple dabs of PL and you have covered the led well. Some would all so add some acousta stuff too. Yes I would stuff behind the mid chamber too we did.

[Renron]

Thanks Dar47,
No it was closed cell, nix that idea. I've got lots of 2" open cell though.
Thanks for the tips, good idea on the rugs at HD / Lowes.
Where did you get the felt you used for the baffle / grill ?
I was thinking out of the box a little and thought of a horse pad that fits underneath the saddle. Wool / Felt 1/2" on flEbay. $25 shipped. Unused of course, wouldn't want to drive the dogs nuts looking for the horse! Ha! Could be fun for awhile though...... What 'cha think?
Ron

[dar47]

Ya! Dogs sniffing and licking is okay, hunting for horses in your speak not so good, haha.

Ben ordered F1 wool felt but I think something less dense with some loft would be easier as Jon showed with his mod. Don't think it has to to be pure just dense enough to stay fit in your pocket in the grill. I just finished with getting my music server all sorted out and this is on my radar to find some other different felts to experiment with. When I get the final version I will glue that one in place in the grill pocket permanently.

[TEK]

Thanks Dar47,
No it was closed cell, nix that idea. I've got lots of 2" open cell though.
Thanks for the tips, good idea on the rugs at HD / Lowes.
Where did you get the felt you used for the baffle / grill ?
I was thinking out of the box a little and thought of a horse pad that fits underneath the saddle. Wool / Felt 1/2" on flEbay. $25 shipped. Unused of course, wouldn't want to drive the dogs nuts looking for the horse! Ha! Could be fun for awhile though...... What 'cha think?
Ron

Hi Ron

For the wool felt I think you should try a hoppy shop of some kind - if there are any in your area.
I found these: http://www.pandurohobby.no/Catalogue...tm-40x40cm-3mm
It's 3mm woolf, 40x40cm, for approx $4 - $5 pr. pice. I got two, but I think one piece will be enough for both speakers. A regular jarn shop might also have something like this.

Coming along nicely on the build - is it so that you have buildt the inner box - and then are planning on adding another "layer" of BB outside that box? How will you do that? Glue on one and one side or build a outer box and just "put the inside box inside it"?
It's quite interesting as you approac is way different than mine, and as you have wastly more experience than me maybe I can pick up some ideas for my next build :-)

[Renron]

Tek,
Thanks for the link and ideas for felt.
I am building the box within a box as you stated. Basically wrapping the HDF (mdf) with the BB plywood. I am doing this way because I can cover all the seams (joints) with the next layer to help prevent air leaks. I am using the outside dimensions of the speaker but I'm changing the way it's built. Nothing wrong with the blueprints, just being different.
This is a photo of my best work. Only 4 screws in the entire project, it breaks down flat for storage and turns into a bed when the front rail is removed. Mattress height is adjustable.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Wow, Ron!

I aspired to something like that but ended up with a crib that looked like I could have bought it in a department store. At least the cradle boat I made for my daughter was handed down to my granddaughter with updated bedding.

[JonMarsh]

Tek,
Thanks for the link and ideas for felt.
I am building the box within a box as you stated. Basically wrapping the HDF (mdf) with the BB plywood. I am doing this way because I can cover all the seams (joints) with the next layer to help prevent air leaks. I am using the outside dimensions of the speaker but I'm changing the way it's built. Nothing wrong with the blueprints, just being different.
This is a photo of my best work. Only 4 screws in the entire project, it breaks down flat for storage and turns into a bed when the front rail is removed. Mattress height is adjustable.
Ron
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24477[/ATTACH]

Now, THIS guy is a real wood worker, not a wires and sparks hack like me! But we knew that already...

[Steve Manning]

Very nice job on the crib Ron!

[Renron]

Thanks for the complements on the crib, it really looks great after the first granddaughter, grandson is the new resident. It was all s2s Alder and water based stain and top coats. They wanted espresso to match the rest of the furniture. Should still be viable long after I'm not.

I purchased some 1/4" felt online, and am waiting for delivery in a day or two. The glued sides of the HDF are drying and tomorrow I'll start wrapping with the Baltic Birch ply. This is such a fun project, I get to think about what comes next and how I'm going to approach it.
With any luck I should start cutting the holes in the baffle layers so I can glue them up by the end of the week.
I'm starting to look for Veneer, and prices are better than I was expecting. Yeah! I'm thinking Pomelle Sapele. The ribbon grade is too expensive.
Ron

[TEK]

Yeah, that crib sure looks nice :-)
Found some pictures of Pomelle Sapele, that sure looks nice - looking forward to see the result!

[Renron]

Thanks Tek, I've never used Sapele before, I do like it's looks though.

While gluing up the side and top, it must have slipped a little bit when drying. You can see the 1/16" the back is protruding in the photo.
Quick work with a 4" Bosch belt sander, and voila. Smooth and ready to accept the Baltic plywood on the back. I need to check for square and parallel fronts before I continue much further, I'm wondering how much that glue slip will effect the front. Pretty easy to run through the table saw at this point and square it up now before proceeding.
Taking the time to "get it right" at these early stages makes everything much easier and simpler later on during the finishing stages.
Ron

Oh Bob, I almost forgot, see those red tabs on the folding saw horses in the corner. Those raise / extend the legs of the horses by about 8". They extend the sawhorses to a working height of 39". Stanley Fat Max, should be just the thing for your sore back. I've had a LOT of weight on them, fairly sturdy and fold up flat too. :T
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the tip, Ron.