Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

[Renron]

No rush Bob, I just wanted to note that I'm interested in copy.... er, reproducing your build. I've got a pair of modified Thor's which sound great, but there's the speaker building addiction thingie .
Hello, my name is Ron and I am an addict. "Hello Ron", your amongst friends here, we share your addiction. The Mad Scientist is the Director. ;x(

Opinions on Hardibacker as a multi laminate cabinet component? (not baffle)
Next best (reasonable priced) material for Baffle layup? (Plyboo $$$):E

Ron

[BobEllis]

A little progress. My girlfriend helped today knocking down mdf sheets into manageable size pieces. I have plenty of room to trim up to size similar to the Ardent MK II or whatever the Wavecor woofer version's name is today. Tuesday I am heading to North Carolina for 10 days with the pieces in my car, ostensibly to help my Dad out post cervical fusion. He's not going to be able to play "poor me" since I had the same levels fused a couple years back. He's got a decent shop that hasn't had much use recently, so time to dust it up. My intention is to get the baffles routed and glued up, and the cabinets ready to assemble. A little warmish weather bicycling is also in the plan.

[Renron]

Thanks for the update, Best hopes to your Father.
Merry Christmas.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Merry Christmas back at you Ron. Dad is supposed to come home Christmas Day. Pretty straight forward operation, I've had it three times and the second two times was out of the hospital in 24 hours. He's in good shape for 80, I expect he will do well.

[Steve Manning]

A little progress. My girlfriend helped today knocking down mdf sheets into manageable size pieces. I have plenty of room to trim up to size similar to the Ardent MK II or whatever the Wavecor woofer version's name is today. Tuesday I am heading to North Carolina for 10 days with the pieces in my car, ostensibly to help my Dad out post cervical fusion. He's not going to be able to play "poor me" since I had the same levels fused a couple years back. He's got a decent shop that hasn't had much use recently, so time to dust it up. My intention is to get the baffles routed and glued up, and the cabinets ready to assemble. A little warmish weather bicycling is also in the plan.

Out of curiosity where in NC does your dad live? I live just across the border in Suffolk Va. Anyway, hope his surgery goes well and you get some good shop time in.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. Dad's in West End, near Pinehurst. Retired to golf heaven and was playing 3-4 times a week until a couple months ago. Mom took up the game, too, and played until her neck went. I was destined to have neck problems even without my faceplant. I spent half of my ten years of Navy active duty homeported in Virginia Beach, so I know your area well. Back then you could ride a bicycle south past Pungo without worrying about cars. There was hardly anything developed south of Virginia Beach town hall. That's changed a bit.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks, Steve. Dad's in West End, near Pinehurst. Retired to golf heaven and was playing 3-4 times a week until a couple months ago. Mom took up the game, too, and played until her neck went. I was destined to have neck problems even without my faceplant. I spent half of my ten years of Navy active duty homeported in Virginia Beach, so I know your area well. Back then you could ride a bicycle south past Pungo without worrying about cars. There was hardly anything developed south of Virginia Beach town hall. That's changed a bit.

All the fun things we have to look forward to as the wheels start falling off the wagon ........ I spent my last two of six years in the navy stationed at Dam Neck in Va. Beach

[JonMarsh]

Merry Christmas back at you Ron. Dad is supposed to come home Christmas Day. Pretty straight forward operation, I've had it three times and the second two times was out of the hospital in 24 hours. He's in good shape for 80, I expect he will do well.

Best wishes for his outcome from the surgery Bob!

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon.

[BobEllis]

Dad came through well, he was up and walking within a couple hours of waking and spent most of today up with little pain. I arrived 2 hours later than planned - traffic nightmares. I love how Virginia drivers mostly keep left except to pass. I'm too beat up for 14.5 hours behind the wheel in a day. The mdf, new blades and bits are unloaded and my bicycle ready to ride as soon as the rain stops.

Well, a quick perusal of this site to see what folks are up to and 3 fingers of Glen Ness and I'm calmed down enough to hit the hay.

[JonMarsh]

Great news Bob, I'm sure it's a relief for you! Sounds like your East Coast drivers are a lot like ours here!

Have a good nights sleep, and best wishes for the Holidays!

[wkhanna]

+1 on the good news, Bob.

[Renron]

Good to hear Bob, enjoy your time with your folks. I wish mine were still around to enjoy.
Now, go make some sawdust, you don't want to ride when the streets are wet anyway.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thank you all. Today he seems to be recovering faster than I did.

Rain has slowed to a drizzle, so I am getting on my bicycle to try to work out some of the stiffness from yesterday's sitathon. No, wet roads aren't great, but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

[---k---]

Bob
Sounds good. Enjoy time with your family.

[BobEllis]

Some progress. Dad's not a subscriber to the "you can never have too many clamps" theory of woodworking. Using 2x4 cauls to make up for the lack of clamps, I have the baffle pieces glued up in double thicknesses. Tomorrow I can rout driver holes

[wkhanna]

Progress is our greatest achievement! :T

[Renron]

Bob,
Thanks for taking the time to post a pic of your progress.
Santa has been kind to me with gift cards to exchange for drivers.
Q :? Why doesn't Parts Express sell gift cards ? Would have been so much easier.
Ron

[---k---]

Bob,
You're making me feel guilty. I got so many projects I need to get to this week and next. But so far all I have accomplished is thinking about them.


FYI: Someone was complaining about PE not having gift cards. Supposedly it is coming with the website redesign in 2015. ... We'll see. You can always use Amazon gift certificates at PE by ordering from PE through Amazon. And PE does do gift cards for ordering over the phone. They don't work with the website.

[Renron]

Ryan,
I "guess" that was me "complaining".? Well, then OK. It is 2014 almost 2015, you can go to Safeway grocery store and buy a gift card for just about any store or theater your can think of.
So why doesn't P.E. ? They take orders online.
My wife checked into P.E. gift cards and you CAN purchase a Visa/Mastercard gift card, but, you must first call and register the card with them and then use the card at a later date (on the phone only)
It's a giant PITA to have to workaround something that should be easy. Anyone of us who wouldn't like a gift card to P.E.? I for one, would prefer it to one from Target or the "Big Box" stores.
Just sayin'.
Ron

[BobEllis]

It took more time to cart the blanks down to the shop than it did to spread the glue and add the clamps, Ryan. Nothing on it today, but it's raining tomorrow. Fewer distractions Dad is recovering well, but still needs help and Mom in the Alzheimer's unit. We try to give her one meal a day fed by a family member. Since Dad can't get there like he has virtually every day for 5 years it is my responsibility. About 2.5 hours between travel and the time it takes to convince her to eat. Then, since it is warm enough to ride my bicycle outside, I want to do that. Funny how you tend to get more done the more is on your plate...

[Renron]

Bob,
Your plate is full and your carrying more than your share of the world's load.
I apologize for whining about P.E. in your thread.
Your a better man than I.

[BobEllis]

oh stop it Ron. Would be boring if we didn't go off topic once in a while. I got beaten around the lake by an old hippie on a mountain bike today. That didn't feel good.

[BobEllis]

Status update. Life of an 80 year old recovering from surgery is interesting. Slow start, out the door to see Mom by 10:45, back at 1:30 Lunch done by 2:30 then we have dinner plans at 4:30. Needless to say, that doesn't leave much time for speaker building. Tomorrow is my last day here, heading from today's high of 75 to lows of -9 when I get home. Oh joy! I need to get the first build panels cut, but I haven't been on my bike in 3 days. Busy day tomorrow.

Since I didn't have a lot of time, I glued up double thicknesses of LBL for the outer baffle for the second build. I only brought one pack of 5 boards or I would have done the inner baffle as well. The good news is the boards advertised as 11.5" actual dimension turned out to be 11-7/8" wide. Assuming I can glue up the balance of the baffle as accurately as these, I should be able to have my baffles 11-13/16" wide, more than wide enough for 10.8" diameter cutouts for the UM10s.

For anyone considering the bamboo boards, the edges are smooth and straight enough to edge glue (one or two outside edges in a pack of 5 boards would want a light pass on the jointer if your UPS guy is rough). The surfaces are flat enough that they for a vacuum bond - really nice stuff, especially compared to the junk MDF I've usually bought.

Jon's post in the Wavecor Ardent thread and a generous gift from my Dad convinced me to go with the C90-6-079 mids for the second build. I'm toying with the idea of scrounging for the Be-tweeter, too. My cabinets will be a bit wider, but since I am tall, I think I will keep the top end shape the same as the Wavecor Ardent and just raise it a little expanding the distance to mid to woofer. That would allow me to use the existing M-T crossover. Of course I could go with my N26, and have ceramic drivers in 130 mm wide flanges, saving a lot of money. Not sure my source equipment is up to resolving the difference.

I ordered my UM10s just before the price went up. Yay! It usually works the other way for me. We shall see how well they reach up to the C90 or whether I will sell them and buy L26R04Ys. The latter would need more EQ in the boxes I am building or a PR retrofit. Here's hoping.

[JonMarsh]

I understand how other events can slow progress, but it seems like you're coping well. We've got an older dog here on her last legs (literally) and have been up every night several times taking care of her and to the vet a couple of times- add in other holiday and maintenance stuff, and slow work does take time. But from what you're posting it sounds to me like things are coming together.

Yes, the LBL boards are very nice- so is the BB ply I buy, and the hassle it saves makes the extra money well worth spent!

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. I knew he wouldn't heal as fast as I did, but was expecting more. I'm sorry about your dog. I know that's hard.

I haven't opened my BB packs yet. Should be nice not to have to fill voids.

[Renron]

Bob,
There goes the budget build. Accutons are out of the budget by many exponentials. I'm very happy you can enjoy them though.
Are you still going to build a budget system?
You are an inspiration of selflessness to us all.

Jon,
As an adult I have never cried so hard as when i had to put my hunting dog down. 13 years as an avalanche / hunting / family guard dog , 12 years ago and I still get tears when I think of her.
I hope your dog passes / translates painlessly.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Yes, Ron, I am still starting with the budget system to allow me to re-hone my woodworking and measurement skills. I don't want to waste my LBL and BB on lousy construction or otherwise mess up a build with those drivers. Build #2 certainly has begun mission creep - I was originally thinking to go with the Dayton esoteric mids or similarly priced. I hope I can stop it before I need to spend mega bucks on source equipment. I know it is well past the knee of the diminishing returns curve, but I sure hope that I will be able to hear the difference. There will be a shootout report.

[JonMarsh]

Bob,
There goes the budget build. Accutons are out of the budget by many exponentials. I'm very happy you can enjoy them though.
Are you still going to build a budget system?
You are an inspiration of selflessness to us all.

Jon,
As an adult I have never cried so hard as when i had to put my hunting dog down. 13 years as an avalanche / hunting / family guard dog , 12 years ago and I still get tears when I think of her.
I hope your dog passes / translates painlessly.
Ron

We hope so, too- probably today or tomorrow. At least she doesn't have cancer or something similar causing her a lot of pain.

[Steve Manning]

We hope so, too- probably today or tomorrow. At least she doesn't have cancer or something similar causing her a lot of pain.

Sorry to hear about your dog Jon ...... never a pleasant time, my wife and I have gone through it a few time with our own pets ...... it's good that she's not in a lot of pain.

[Renron]

Thanks for the reply Bob,
I was hoping you'd still build both. I'm a complete NOOB at measurements, in fact I just bought an external USB sound Card and XLR microphone (Dayton Emm-6 w/ cal. files)
Is there an easy to use / understand program for measuring drivers T/S ? I have a few drivers that were given to me by Ron from NHT (Your neck of the woods Jon) with no name and no specs. If I can use them to make some garage speakers that aren't terrible while I watch your build progress, I could learn too.
Any preferences for just starting out?

NQ,
Ron

[5th element]

You may as well just learn how to use the ARTA measurement package. LIMP is a stand alone program within the suite that is designed specifically for measuring crossover components, loudspeaker impedance and T/S parameters.

[JonMarsh]

Along the lines of the idea of a budget Ardent design, it occurs to me that I should see if I can model the ZA14 as a potential midrange driver for this design. Consider it on my official list of "To-Do's".

[BobEllis]

That's cool. I hope to have a ZA-14 measured in cabinet for you to work with before too long.

[oneplustwo]

Poor man's ardent would be a potential option for my next project as well if I don't go with some in walls. Anyone thought about doing a mini-DSP ardent? Perhaps to lend some flexibility to the potential for different drivers based on availability/price point/etc since the cabinet build is relatively complex?

[BobEllis]

My plan is passive mid-tweet and active mid-woofer, although I will likely go full active at first. Jon has graciously offered to "help" with the XO and transfer functions.

[Renron]

Along the lines of the idea of a budget Ardent design, it occurs to me that I should see if I can model the ZA14 as a potential midrange driver for this design. Consider it on my official list of "To-Do's".

Very cool Jon, Any ideas jumping out at 'ya for the woofer(s) and Tweets? or keep what's on deck?

5th Element, any chance you have an education in sonar applications?
I'll go ahead and pick up Arta on your recommendation. Thanks!
I just received my M-Audio Mobile Pre USB today. Excited!
Ron

[JonMarsh]

If one wanted to do this as cheap as possible, with decent performance, and design compatibility, I'd say dual 4 Ohm RS225 for the woofers, also sealed and wired in series like the Wavecor's. They wouldn't go as deep, and the mid and tweeter padding would need to be decreased slightly. The tweeter is a little trickier- the D2608-9130 is the least expensive I'd recommend, and that would take some network redesign. The venerable 6600 air circ would work well and be a drop in for the existing crossover.

I have some of the RS225-4, but haven't gotten around to measuring them. I have a test box that might work... let me know if interested in going down that path. This would be feasible for a complete passive design crossover like the original.

[BobEllis]

I had 4 RS-225S 8 ohm versions I'd planned to use, but one seems to have gone missing. If it doesn't show up I will go with RS225-4 for the benefit of simplicity and current availability.

Based on Jon's comments above I will save my H1212 for another project and use the 6600 to save Jon some work. That is, unless that choice drives this project out of reach for Ron and others interested. Let me know your preferences.

The current driver lineup for the budget build is Air-Circ, ZA14 and RS-225.

[oneplustwo]

The current driver lineup for the budget build is Air-Circ, ZA14 and RS-225.

Second that!

[Renron]

what do you 'all think of using a seas 27tdfc in this build? Reason I'm asking is the number of favorable comparisons between the Seas and lesser expensive SS .

Jon, you are too kind, to offer (if it's wanted) a passive sealed design would be right up my alley!
How much of a difference (better?) would you expect with the Wavecor vs. RS225? Not just F3 per say, but, timber tonality?
Just checked prices...........RS225 PE$58 , Solen Wavecor 8.5" on sale @ $170---------------------------RS225 it is! Ha, that was easy for the retired and unemployed. (me)

Sort of hate to ask, but how's the dog? I just got a letter today from my brother in Oregon, he picks up his Springer Spaniel puppy in a few days. (circle of life)
Ron

[BobEllis]

I have a pair of 27TDFC on hand, too. Wouldn't be hard to stick them in and measure. I'd have to buy the Air-Circs.

I expect to net about 60L internal volume with single thickness side walls - At the moment I'm using Jon's original Ardent cabinet as a target external volume. That should give a fairly low Q sealed alignment with RS225s.

Finally got a chance to get into the shop and Dad's saw is way out of whack. Rust and brittle ancient plastic knobs make adjustment difficult to impossible. I guess I'll try to rout some driver holes.

[JonMarsh]

what do you 'all think of using a seas 27tdfc in this build? Reason I'm asking is the number of favorable comparisons between the Seas and lesser expensive SS .

Jon, you are too kind, to offer (if it's wanted) a passive sealed design would be right up my alley!
How much of a difference (better?) would you expect with the Wavecor vs. RS225? Not just F3 per say, but, timber tonality?
Just checked prices...........RS225 PE$58 , Solen Wavecor 8.5" on sale @ $170---------------------------RS225 it is! Ha, that was easy for the retired and unemployed. (me)

Sort of hate to ask, but how's the dog? I just got a letter today from my brother in Oregon, he picks up his Springer Spaniel puppy in a few days. (circle of life)
Ron

I still have some 27TDFC's around, easy to get current data. Can do... it's certainly cheaper- but it lacks some of the distortion reduction features in the motor. I think I last tested them with Praxis- should get some new data with the current setup.

There's a big different in Xmax between the SW223BD01 and the RS225. There's some difference in Sd, of course. The SW223BD01/2 uses the balanced drive motor, which has very low distortion in it's operating range, particularly lower HD2

You know how it is, you get what you pay for!

We've talked in the past about lower cost versions of the Ardent, but it often hasn't been all that attractive, considering how much effort is involved with the cabinets. But this can be done...

27TBFG, the aluminum version:







Might be inclined to recommend this version- but then it's not what you've got!

Air cir for comparison:






Classic late model SS distortion characteristics:



Will the SS sound better than the Seas? Or better for the buck? Only you can decide...

[JonMarsh]

And just for fun: (HD2 is solid, HD3 is dashed)


Seas W15



("classic" metal cone resonance amplification of distortion products)


Accuton C79





Zaph ZA14

[BobEllis]

The effort going into the cabinet is what lead me up the path for the "final" build. It's a big stretch financially, but hopefully will keep me from wishing I had reached higher for quite a while. I also have a pair of 27TBFCG as well if you want to see what they look like in this cabinet. With an external crossover you can swap out the tweeter section readily if/when you are ready to upgrade to the Air-Circ.

Nice to see how well the ZA14 does up high compared to the W15 I am listening to in a 2 way at home now. It will be interesting to see if my Oppo BDP-103 and Pass clone amps can resolve the difference between W15, ZA14 and the C79. I also have an M-Audio FW410 interface with one 192/24 set of outputs that may be a bit better, I'm not quite sure.