Kleos - Dipole Line Array

[Johnloudb]

Wow, I've really been distracted/preoccupied this month. I have done some soldering and just took some delivery on a bunch of cheap film caps that I can experiment. Once I get the design finished then I'll invest in some polystyrene REL caps. Got some pics I'll post a bit later today.

[Johnloudb]

Here's a pic of the little progress I made:

http://campl.us/hMbTSonI18K

[Johnloudb]

A pic of the small polyester film caps:

http://campl.us/hnfPJ6wQyNE

[Hank]

atta boy, John. Large or small, progress is progress.

[Johnloudb]

Very true Hank! Am hoping to move along faster now ... still kind of swamped though.

Just finished wiring up the low pass filter today -

http://campl.us/fzMUWA8aiZg

Here is the bottom of my generic PCB board, on which I put put some popular surface mount package types. So the BF862 JFETS will go on bottom of the board, and on the aplicable SOT-23 pads near the top.

http://campl.us/dZqGgpoymiG

JFETs are sensitive to electrostatic voltages so I put them in last.

[Johnloudb]

More progress. This is the high pass and low pass 4th order circuit and represents 1/4 of the complete crossover. Still haven't put in the JFETs in and test it.

http://campl.us/j8yurFXeGjc

http://campl.us/ebtQ5n1uLQ8

[Johnloudb]

Well, I soldered in the JFETs and tested the one crossover. It biased up well and I was easily able to zero the small DC offset with the pots at the outputs. Sounds good huh? Not so fast. I got no signal from the output of the high-pass when testing it on the scope. On the low-pass I got a 3 dB crossover frequency of 1.1KHz ... should be close to 600Hz. I found that when the Low pass input was hooked up there was a signal equal in level to the input at the High Pass output! Go figure!

Okay, I am looking for the errors but haven't found them yet. Weird. If I can't find the problems, I'll just start working the crossover PCB. Probably should have done that to begin with.

[Johnloudb]

Ha, I found a couple errors where I had one input wire hooked up to the wrong side of a resistor, and also had a wire which shouldn't have been in the circuit which was shorting the input to ground on the HP filter. But may be another problem or two.

[JonMarsh]

Ha, I found a couple errors where I had one input wire hooked up to the wrong side of a resistor, and also had a wire which shouldn't have been in the circuit which was shorting the input to ground on the HP filter. But may be another problem or two.

Well, that's good progress, John!

You're a braver man than I am, though- now and then I still have to build up something without a custom PCB, but it's so easy to make mistakes I avoid that like the plague anymore! For "cheapies" and one offs I use PCB express;

http://www.sunstone.com/PCBexpress_Sunstone.aspx?gclid=CK6lgrfLmLgCFSjZQgodriAA4w

a bare two layer PCB without solder mask or silkscreen can be done remarkably inexpensively. Use it for projects at work, too, that are time critical, especially just for fast test hardware.

[Saurav]

I would be experimenting with the DCX or a long time before I felt brave enough to start building any circuits...

[Johnloudb]

Jon,
PCBexpress/Sunstone looks good ... I will download the software and try it out. If you're happy with it I'm sure it's very good. I am currently using ExpressPCB, which also offers their own software, and may just use that for now since I'm familiar with it, and have already started the design. But I'm not far into it so we'll see. ExpressPCB can bit pricey I think too.

Saurav,
that could be the way to go, but we use the DCX for the subwoofer and also it won't quite do all i want it to, like the high frequency shelf. My crossover is fairly easy to change as well, so nothing is set in stone.

I guess if I'm unhappy with what I've done, I can always experiment with the DCX later and then change my crossover.

[Saurav]

That's the beauty of DIY - it's never finished until you decide it's finished

[Johnloudb]

That's the beauty of DIY - it's never finished until you decide it's finished

Very True!!!

Just tested out the crossover and it works well, at least on my O'scope. So, now I'm thinking do I really want to hand wire up another crossover or just get the PCB designed which I plan to do anyway? I'm leaning toward just getting the PCB designed, now that I've proved to myself that it works. No point in wasting time with hand wiring up the rest of the circuit, and then starting with the crossover PCB.

[Saurav]

Don't you want to put the XO on the speaker and see how the combination measures and sounds before you go off and build PCBs? Put on some mono music and listen to one channel

[BobEllis]

If you want to allow tweaking, use breakaway strip sockets for caps and/or resistors so you don't bung up the board changing them out. Once settled you can remove the socket only reworking the board once. For example http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...UeQQFNAc5cY%3d you can break off a single socket so your board doesn't need a string of holes.

[Johnloudb]

Don't you want to put the XO on the speaker and see how the combination measures and sounds before you go off and build PCBs? Put on some mono music and listen to one channel

Yeah, that's what I should do. But that means displacing one of dad's speakers and moving stuff and messing with room acoustics and then putting it all back! And then listening to him complain at me that he can't listen to his system. He knows what's coming once I get the crossover is done and I'll have a free hand to do what I need to get it all set up properly.

I could always try it out with one speaker placed where it is on the other wall. But if it doesn't sound good, I'll feel bad.

[Johnloudb]

If you want to allow tweaking, use breakaway strip sockets for caps and/or resistors so you don't bung up the board changing them out. Once settled you can remove the socket only reworking the board once. For example http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...UeQQFNAc5cY%3d you can break off a single socket so your board doesn't need a string of holes.

Cool, good idea, will order those now. 3M makes great stuff!

[Hank]

Just taking time to check on you boys to see if you're behaving. More progress, John! Order those sockets Bob recommended and have more 3M content in your speakers - should widen the soundstage a bit more:B
I'm not as busy as Jon, but very busy with my new division - had a Sunnyvale company CEO et al here Tuesday for final contract negotiation - got everythink we wanted. Already negotiated pricing - cost avoidance of $6M+ so maybe I'll get to come back next week.:T
FWIW, I'd do the mono listening/measuring test before buying a PCB at this point.

[Saurav]

I could always try it out with one speaker placed where it is on the other wall.

That's what I meant. A speaker that makes magic in a good room will still sound pretty special in any other setting.

But if it doesn't sound good, I'll feel bad.

Which means you'll feel twice as bad if you order PCBs, build both speakers, and then discover that they don't sound amazing. You've put so much effort into the physical construction, built these gorgeous speakers, I think you owe it to yourself to take your time and do a good job with the XO and voicing. Measure twice cut once applies to electronics too

[Johnloudb]

Ordered the special 3M sockets Thursday, along with some more caps.

I decided I will finish the one channel crossover and hook it up. I've got most of the PCB designed but just can't order until I test it out. Anyway, you guys have driven the point home and will test the one crossover with one speaker.

[Johnloudb]

I'm working on wiring up the equalization part of the crossover for one channel, and also been tweaking my PCB design (below). Oh, yeah there is a top layer ground plain and the board is 2.4 in by 5 in. So, I'll finish the one channel prototype crossover and I have a box for it already, and just have to plop in in and wire it up to the connectors. I left out the regulator circuit on the PCB cause I won't leave my option open there. I will be doing a +/-12v battery power supply to start with, and a simple regulator to adjust the voltage to +/-9V.

[wkhanna]

That is some serious Schiit!

[Johnloudb]

That is some serious Schiit!

Ha Ha, thanks!

[Hank]

Nice symmetrical layout there John - and good you've got a complete ground plane planned. We'll soon be seing response plots here

[Johnloudb]

We'll soon be seing response plots here

I hope so, I'll do what I can.

[Johnloudb]

Well, been preoccupied, but still inching forward. I've about got the circuit wired up and have the parts for the power supply. I've also made some nice gemstone necklaces for my girlfriend and her daughter. Will post some pictures soon.

I've decided to incorporate a regulated supply onto my printed circuit board and am designing that now. The benefit of this is that I can make the board 3 inches wide an 4.85 inches long. That is the golden ratio dimensions! That of course will yield better sonics!

[wkhanna]

That of course will yield better sonics!

Ahh.... only if you paint it Black :W

[Hank]

Necklaces, schmecklaces, we want speakers and plots! :2guns:
just kidding - I did some jewelry making several years ago - favorite stone was opal.
Commercialize your circuit and advertise the golden ratio's sonic benefits - there are buyers of snake oil around every corner

[Johnloudb]

Ahh.... only if you paint it Black :W

Oh, you mean like the black monolith in 2001 A Space Oddyssey? That makes perfect sense.

Hank
Necklaces, schmecklaces, we want speakers and plots!
just kidding - I did some jewelry making several years ago - favorite stone was opal.
Commercialize your circuit and advertise the golden ratio's sonic benefits - there are buyers of snake oil around every corner

Opal - ♥ Love ♥ Loyalty ♥ Peace ♥ Consciousness ♥ Faithfulness

http://www.charmsoflight.com/opal-he...roperties.html

Nice! glad you've done some necklace making too. I haven't used opal yet. Have used rose quartz, red jasper, onyx, amethyst, and others. Here is some of my work ... keep in mind that my friend and her daughter took my best stuff. The black rock I think is onyx, and don't know what the other is. Perhaps I will start selling necklaces too. No snake oil here Hank ... pure science and I'll be sure to advertise the sonic benefits. I think wearing gemstone necklaces could have sonic benefits as well, as they transmute the negative energy into positive, healing energy. I will do some experiments and see what affects different gemstones have on sound quality!!!

[Hank]

transmute the negative energy into positive, healing energy

Lordy, I fear we may be observing the spawning of a similar product to the guy who sells upside-down ceramic mugs as cable elevators :roll:
BTW, nice looking neclaces.

[Johnloudb]

Lordy, I fear we may be observing the spawning of a similar product to the guy who sells upside-down ceramic mugs as cable elevators :roll:
BTW, nice looking neclaces.

Thanks Hank! Oh, I have not yet even touched the surface Hank, got more audio enhancement ideas, but better keep mum till it's farther along in development. There is some scientific evidence supporting my ideas as well.

Things going pretty slow. Having all kinds of miscellaneous problems, distractions, but won't bore you all with them. Did get a PCB design that includes the DC regulator, but still have to wire it up and test it. The LM7818 and LM7918 provide +/-18 volts to the op-amps, and then that is further filtered and reduced to +/-9 volts for the JFET filters. I haven't wired it up yet or tested it with an unregulated supply, but it should work well. If I need to change something I may of course have to change the PCB layout. The transformer and rectification will be located away from the board.

The top layer is red, and includes some necessary power supply traces. I did manage to incorporate golden ratio dimensions in this board. :W

Next up wire this puppy up and see if the circuit works well with one speaker.

[wkhanna]

Any progress is good progress.
As Jon always says, "slow work takes time".

Those boards look fabulous, John!

[Johnloudb]

Any progress is good progress.
As Jon always says, "slow work takes time".

Those boards look fabulous, John!

Thank you Bill!

[Hank]

Okay, John, long weekend coming up (hint, hint). I just bought a pair of Acoustat Model 3's from a guy in Ohio off eBay! My first electrostatic speakers and I am pumped. I'm already planning tweaks: Medallion transformers, new, better caps, replace the Monster (yes, there's actually a 'Monster Wire Inside' label on the interface cases) with good wire, etc. Finding a decent freight rate was an adventure. A couple of quotes over $400. Someone on another forum recommended Pilot Freight, so I contacted them and the cost will be abut $140 plus $25 for insurance. What a rate!
Okay, back to your DIY.

[JonMarsh]

Ah, had to track you down here, Hank, to get the details on your speakers!

But I completely agree with you, long weekend coming up for most of us, and we expect great things from John- or at least some token progress!

My work thing on my first day off yesterday went pretty well, better than expected, and I may even have some personal time this weekend!

So, let's rename this "Laboring on Speakers Day" weekend!

[Hank]

I may even have some personal time this weekend!

Whoa! Time Off for the endentured Jon?

[Hank]

Okay, John, the great and powerful Oz, er Jon has spoken! Verily I say unto you, thou shalt make no small progress in your endeavours this weekend, nay, thou shalt make great and glorious progress!!

[dar47]

Oh come on now, I put 7 straight days in on my 6 speak build! Can't I even go to the beach for a couple hours for the first time this summer and have a few wobbly pops?

[JonMarsh]

Okay, John, the great and powerful Oz, er Jon has spoken! Verily I say unto you, thou shalt make no small progress in your endeavours this weekend, nay, thou shalt make great and glorious progress!!

I'm with Hank on this one! :T This personal time off stuff is for wusses, not manly speaker building men of valor! Why, in just a few minutes, I'll be mightily hewing at my MBP 17 in order to upgrade the drive system to accommodate the present and coming imperatives for more DIY projects! (that, and music instruction...) (self instruction, that is...)

What better time to catch up than a holiday weekend? Unless you've got a stack of documentation to go through for a critical customer meeting early Tuesday morning (guilty as charged!)

[Johnloudb]

Okay, John, long weekend coming up (hint, hint). I just bought a pair of Acoustat Model 3's from a guy in Ohio off eBay! My first electrostatic speakers and I am pumped. I'm already planning tweaks: Medallion transformers, new, better caps, replace the Monster (yes, there's actually a 'Monster Wire Inside' label on the interface cases) with good wire, etc. Finding a decent freight rate was an adventure. A couple of quotes over $400. Someone on another forum recommended Pilot Freight, so I contacted them and the cost will be abut $140 plus $25 for insurance. What a rate!
Okay, back to your DIY.

Wow Hank! That sounds like a fun project and don't forget the added sub-woofers for that last octave! Though I've read that those Acoustats have have good bass. Wish you good luck with shipping ... when we had our Nelson/Reed speakers shipped (burlington freight) someone put the fork lift prongs right through the box, missing the speakers by an inch. :E

[Johnloudb]

Oh come on now, I put 7 straight days in on my 6 speak build! Can't I even go to the beach for a couple hours for the first time this summer and have a few wobbly pops?

I with you dar, Enjoy the wobbly pops!

[Johnloudb]

This personal time off stuff is for wusses, not manly speaker building men of valor!

I think you and Hank have mistaken me for someone else. I'm not a manly speaker builder, I'm a very reluctant speaker builder (aka wuss)!

I can just be thankful that I didn't read your posts earlier and did enjoy most of the weekend with my friend. Today, I am getting some work done on my speaker crossover and I am itching to get some music going. So, hopefully we'll see better progress ...

[Hank]

don't forget the added sub-woofers for that last octave!

I wouldn't forget subs - plan to build a couple of servo subs with Brian Ding's (Rythmik Audio) amps.

[Johnloudb]

I wouldn't forget subs - plan to build a couple of servo subs with Brian Ding's (Rythmik Audio) amps.

That's cool! As happy as I am with the TL subs I have now, I'm afraid they just take up too much room (too tall/wide) to allow my large dipoles to breath. So will likely be going to a large diameter sub, once I get my speakers going. Will be using them without a sub starting out.

[Hank]

John, I recommend you consider servo sub(s). Maybe an H, W, M or V frame cab. Or get rad and do a Ripole:
ridtahler.pdf