Soundemons Statement LCR build

[soundemon]

Hi All
After building my Recession buster kit, I've been looking for the next step and The statements are the ones for me! A great many of my questions are answered in the multitude of other build threads (great job everybody!) but I had a few:

- For the center, is there a design currently (or in the works) using the same driver compliment as the mains, using the same open-back mid enclosure design? (yes I have read frodaddys' closed-back center design - also great job!) Size of the center isn't a huge constraint. Not that I want it to be the size of the mains :E but it can be pretty big, maybe just tuned a bit higher...

My room is 14' wide by 25' deep, and all that will be at the front is the LCR, a 3-channel amp to drive them, the projection screen and a dual manifold False-wall IB using 4 Mach5 IXL18's.

Also, being in Canada I'm hoping to do the bulk of my ordering from Solen.ca. they've got the Dayton, the TB mids and the fountek tweets, but I'm a little worried about getting the crossover components correctly. has anyone ordered crossover components from Solen? (and have a BOM i could use? :W )

Thanks in advance, and to Jim and Curt; fantastic design, and thanks for keeping it so that folks like me can make them with ease!!

[BeerParty]

For the center, is there a design currently (or in the works) using the same driver compliment as the mains, using the same open-back mid enclosure design? (yes I have read frodaddys' closed-back center design - also great job!) Size of the center isn't a huge constraint. Not that I want it to be the size of the mains :E but it can be pretty big, maybe just tuned a bit higher...

What are you trying to accomplish that you think the existing Statement Center will not do? As I understand it, the center channel in a 5.1 setup is primarily for voices, so it doesn't need to go as loud and low as the front left and right speaker. There should not be any need for the Dayton RS225s in the center.

If you are worried about matching drivers, you could build the Statement Mini for the L & R, they use the same drivers as the center. Both the Mini and the Center design use the open-back Mid design. And with 4 Mach5 IXL18's, you won't need the mains to go low anyway.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Soundemon,

Welcome and thank you for the kind words. We appreciate them.

Nope, there aren't any more Statements designs in the works or planned. As Beerparty pointed out, the Statements center is a perfect match for any of the Statements series speakers if you have room for the back wave to be reflected forward as designed.

If you don't have an accustically transparent screen or have an entertainment center that blocks the back wave from the open back mid, I'd suggest using Jed's center that he designed for Frodaddy. Based on Frodaddy's feedback, it works great for more restrictive placement situations.

As far as bass is concerned, the Statements center should be about 40 Hz and the sealed center with RS225's should be around 50 Hz. The RS225's will move more air of course but just won't go quite as low in a sealed configuration. Both are excellent designs so pick which one works best in your room.

HTH

Jim

[soundemon]

What are you trying to accomplish that you think the existing Statement Center will not do?

Very good question. for me it's 98% about the sound but also there is a "looks" factor involved, and I like the looks of a center which has the same drivers as the L&R. if there's no sound difference, I'd spend the extra $60 for the second W4 just for asthetics... ops:

[soundemon]

Hi Soundemon,

Welcome and thank you for the kind words. We appreciate them.

Nope, there aren't any more Statements designs in the works or planned. As Beerparty pointed out, the Statements center is a perfect match for any of the Statements series speakers if you have room for the back wave to be reflected forward as designed.

If you don't have an accustically transparent screen or have an entertainment center that blocks the back wave from the open back mid, I'd suggest using Jed's center that he designed for Frodaddy. Based on Frodaddy's feedback, it works great for more restrictive placement situations.

As far as bass is concerned, the Statements center should be about 40 Hz and the sealed center with RS225's should be around 50 Hz. The RS225's will move more air of course but just won't go quite as low in a sealed configuration. Both are excellent designs so pick which one works best in your room.

HTH

Jim

My screen will be flat on the wall, with the center underneath, angled slightly upwards, on a dedicated stand. Limitation is max height of 20" to the top of the center. none else.
the amount of space behind the center will doubtlessly match the positioning of the L&R. I'm really hoping to cross the whole LCR at 40Hz. 60Hz is not an option in my pre-pro, and 80Hz just feels too high to me...

[BeerParty]

Very good question. for me it's 98% about the sound but also there is a "looks" factor involved, and I like the looks of a center which has the same drivers as the L&R. if there's no sound difference, I'd spend the extra $60 for the second W4 just for asthetics... ops:

Well, the Statement Mini has exactly the same drivers as the Statement Center (each speaker has 2 Dayton RS180s, a Tangband W4-1337S, and a Fountek NeoCD3.0), so if matching the drivers is a concern that is probably your best bet in the Statement series.

I don't remember reading about anyone comparing the Statements to the Statement Minis, but if you ask around someone should be able to tell you the difference in sound between them. I know FroDaddy is building some Minis to go with his Statements, so if you can hold off for a little while he could provide some comparison info. Of course, he now has three Statements to listen to, so his progress might be a bit slower than before. :P

There have been several Mini builds, so you'll have several examples of cabinets to look at when considering "the look" you want. And if you really want to match everything up, you could just build three centers for LCR duty.

[soundemon]

Has anyone build the sealed statements? whats the F3 on this design? Same crossover?

[Jim Holtz]

Has anyone build the sealed statements? whats the F3 on this design? Same crossover?

Yes, there are several folks that have built the sealed version including a good friend of mine. I've attached a picture of his. Each one sits on top of a 15" TC Sounds sub. He built two pair, one pair for mains and the other for surrounds. He also built the Statements center. F3 sealed is around 50 Hz. You will need a sub for home theater and some music.

Jim

[FroDaddy]

...I don't remember reading about anyone comparing the Statements to the Statement Minis...

I believe Sefferdog spoke about both the Statements and Mini Statements around the time when the minis first came out, IIRC.

I know FroDaddy is building some Minis to go with his Statements, so if you can hold off for a little while he could provide some comparison info. Of course, he now has three Statements to listen to, so his progress might be a bit slower than before. :P

Haha, definitely bitter sweet! :B

[BigguyZ]

Yes, there are several folks that have built the sealed version including a good friend of mine. I've attached a picture of his. Each one sits on top of a 15" TC Sounds sub. He built two pair, one pair for mains and the other for surrounds. He also built the Statements center. F3 sealed is around 50 Hz. You will need a sub for home theater and some music.

Jim

What veneer is that, and where did he get it? That's fantastic!

[Jim Holtz]

What veneer is that, and where did he get it? That's fantastic!

They turned out really pretty. The veneer is waterfall bubinga and he bought it from Oakwood Veneer company. Oakwood and Tapease are my two favorite veneer companies. Both are excellent.

Jim

[soundemon]

I'm in the "parts ordering" phase - what is the recommended optimum lining for the cabinet interiors?

[Jim Holtz]

I'm in the "parts ordering" phase - what is the recommended optimum lining for the cabinet interiors?

Like many things in speaker building, you have choices. I have used foam, fiberglass, Blackhole5, Whispermat etc. and have not seen/heard a difference in any of it. Of course, I didn't do back to back listening tests so it's not scientific by any stretch of the imagination.

If you want to use fiberglass in the woofer compartments, I'd suggest 2" unbacked from Home Depot. It's sold for wrapping pipes etc and works well.

If you want to use foam, I'd suggest ordering 2" wedge foam from Foam by Mail. It works well and is inexpensive.

In ALL Statements series speaker builds use 1" flat foam for the mid tunnels. Here is what Foam by Mail (1.1 lb density) sells or you can find it in the upholstery section of a hobby store.

PE, Silent Source and others sell the other varieties.

HTH

Jim

[BigguyZ]

They turned out really pretty. The veneer is waterfall bubinga and he bought it from Oakwood Veneer company. Oakwood and Tapease are my two favorite veneer companies. Both are excellent.

Jim

Holy cow! That stuff is expensive. I've always used Veneersupplies.com, the Oakwood definitely has some things they don't. (I have to admit I do appreciate the pictures of each species that Veneersupplies.com has).

But anyway, it'd cost me $750 in veneer alone to do all 5 speakers! I really want to do that, but maybe I'll just do the L and R in that...

[soundemon]

Well I've made a little progress. Funny how little time I can find to run the big saw - between working, and my Daughters sleeping schedule...

I've recieved all the mids and woofers, and all the crossover components, just need to get the tweeters on order. I've also got all the MDF I need, just working on getting things cut.

I got Home depot to do the rough cuts, but I do all the final cuts myself, I dont trust their measurements (or anybodies if I'm not measuring myself) You dont realize how big the pieces are for this build untill you've got them up on the saw!



While trying to set up some cuts for accuracy and safety, I realized how badly I needed a featherboard.



this magnetic one came from Lee Valley, and is a very helpfull tool

The baffles and the sides I had Home depot cut oversize so I could trim to size. It's tough to make a width-wise cut on a tablesaw so I set up a jig and used a mitersaw:



and I've got my first baffle glued together



I realized here a few mistakes:

• I cut the baffles oversized for width but not for height.
• Even tho I put a nice thick layer of glue down, I still could have used more. only the smallest bead came out around the edges.
• No 13 clamps is still not enough for this job. I'd have been happy with at least 8 more to get clamping force all along the length of the baffle...

[PoorboyMike]

You dont realize how big the pieces are for this build untill you've got them up on the saw!

Ha, wait until you get them assembled! I'm building a pair for a friend and these things are much bigger in person than they look in pictures. I could fit both of my Lineup Maxxs inside one of these and still have room for a small sub. I don't even have the bases on yet and they are as tall as my 13year old son. :B

[Gusta]

13 clamps is still not enough for this job. I'd have been happy with at least 8 more to get clamping force all along the lenght of the baffle...

I'm no expert, but after attempting the same thing twice, I found out it's much better to use more glue and lots of weights distributed evenly over the entire surface until enough glue beads out evenly around all edges. I could never get the right tension all around using clamps.

Also, initially I had a problem with larger gaps at both ends of the baffle and finally realized there was a dip in the table I was doing it on. That was solved by setting the baffles on a flat and uniform concrete surface.

[soundemon]

Progressing slowly but surely...

Looking at mounting hardware, did I read somewhere that the mounting holes in the tweeter are the same size as in the mid driver?

[jyqureshi]

You can use the same screw, but make sure that the mounting holes on the tweeter can take them, as in my case they were bit small, so I used 3/16 bit to increase the holes.

The tweeter's flange is made of aluminum so it wouldn't be that difficult.

[soundemon]

What is the length to cut the port tube, not including the flared ends? (I'm using the dayton flared port kit as indicated in the Statement BOM)
Thanks!

[jyqureshi]

I think the total length of the port including the flares is 7", it will depend on the length of each flare, and how deep the port will go in each flare.

In fact I just cut the port for my Statements 2 hours ago, I cut the port 4 1/4" and when I attached the port to the flares it came out to be a little over 7", probably 7 1/8.

Hope this helps

[john trials]

port tube length (before adding flares) for Statements is 4".

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28728&page=16

Jim comments on post # 526, and Curt comments on post 1066 Newbie

[soundemon]

I've gotten some great work done over the last few weeks - I even took a week of vacation last week to make some progress. I've got a rule tho, if I'm working on the speakers and not enjoying myself, I put everything down and move to something else. It is a hobby, and should be enjoyed!

Mid tunnels glued up:



Clamping up the bottoms:



I'm going with a bit of a different look for the bases. using dowels as 2" spacers and a floorboard with small spikes underneath:

[soundemon]

The baffles are next - I used a test baffle to try out each cuttout before I made it. I highly recommend this, as you can make the holes perfect on a scrap piece before moving on to the main workpiece. any mistakes arent the end of the world, its just a piece of scrap.



I tried a couple of different techniques for the tweeter before coming up with a good method for a neat hole with proper clearances:



and used screw-in threaded inserts with just a touch of glue, rather than hammer-in T-nuts



Baffles done:



I really enjoyed the process of scalloping the backs of the baffles. Really took my time with this one. for everything else (layouts and cuttouts) you have to be a scientist, but for this you can become an artist!

[Jim Holtz]

Looks great! :T

Jim

[soundemon]

Next is the main glue-up. I wasn't quite sure how to aproach this one for a solid build but also making sure everything is alligned properly.

I started with the baseplate onto one of the sides:



Then proceeded to lay out and glue all the rest of the internals. always when setting up the glue job I'd clamp some boards to the outer edges, to make sure everything was edge-alligned, and no drifting would occurr, then wieghts or clamps:



After everything inside is glued, the other half goes on:

[soundemon]

Backs are next, then I move onto the crossovers (about which I'm a little nervous) and decorating the interiors with wedge and flat foam.

I'm also wondering how to get the wires into the mid drivers. is it common practice to drill thru the mid-tunnels and caulk the holes shut after the wires are thru?

[Curt C]

Backs are next, then I move onto the crossovers (about which I'm a little nervous) and decorating the interiors with wedge and flat foam.

This article on Nodal Analysis may help with your crossover construction.

I'm also wondering how to get the wires into the mid drivers. is it common practice to drill thru the mid-tunnels and caulk the holes shut after the wires are thru?

Exactly!

C

[soundemon]

I've layed out how I'd like to build the crossovers, and I'm hoping for some feedback on component layout. I'm using one board for the mids, and another for the woofers and the tweeter.

I understand that some components will interfere with each other, is this current layout OK?

Also, as I layed out each of the components, I noticed that I was missing the 60.00uF cap in the woofer circuit, causing me great alarm. Eventually, using my trusty brain :E , I figured out that this value is acheaved by combining the 56uF and the 3.9uF caps. but do I get this value from connecting them in parallel or series? (forgive my rudementary ignorance... ops: )

Thanks!

[wackii]

Never mind. I'm confused myself.

Al,

[Nathan P]

Caps add in parallel and add inversely in series like so:

Parallel: 10uF + 3uF = 13 uF

Series: 1/10uF + 1/3uF = 1/newvalue uF

Resistors are opposite, parallel you ad the inverse and then invert, series you add the values straight up.

IIRC, it's the inductors that like to cause problems and they shouldn't be too close or aligned with each other. So you should be fine

[soundemon]

Cabinets done, awaiting crossovers and front baffles:







Did I read that stuffing some polyfill in the bottom of the cabinets was a good idea?

[soundemon]

Another question regarding the crossovers and wiring of the drivers if anyone can help me out here - looking at (for example) the woofer circuit, you've got *neg* from both woofers, *neg* from input, and C1021 all going to the same spot. how do you manage this? do most people wire up to one woofer and go from that woofer to the next, or individually from the crossover to each driver? I see in the pictures of crossovers I've looked at so far many people use the small white plastic screw-down connections, but theres no room in there for 4 wires!

[soundemon]

Here are the first 2 circuits I've soldered - can someone please doublecheck my work? Just looking for some feedback before I continue

Woofers: (thats a 56uF and a 3.9uF cap in paralell)



tweeter: (pay no attention to the "IN" marked in the upper left hand. connections are at the white block, out "+" at the top, "-" in the middle, (coming from amp input and going to tweeter(?)) and input "+" at the bottom



I plan to neaten up the connecting wire lengths before attaching the components to the boards.

[soundemon]

bump - really hoping someone will weigh in on my questions here:

- poly stuffing at bottom of cabinet or no?
- do the crossovers look ok?
- with 4 points of "-" in crossover, (to amp, to dual speakers, and within crossover) how to wire?

See above posts for clarity - thanks!!!

[jyqureshi]

- not sure about poly fill.
- woofer crossover looks good, not sure about the tweeter
- You can run one -ve wire from the input to the next component, and from there to the next, and so on so forth

You can see my crossovers here:
Center Channel's:https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=101
Statements: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=139

Hope this helps.

[Jim Holtz]

bump - really hoping someone will weigh in on my questions here:

- poly stuffing at bottom of cabinet or no?
- do the crossovers look ok?
- with 4 points of "-" in crossover, (to amp, to dual speakers, and within crossover) how to wire?

See above posts for clarity - thanks!!!

I'll let others comment on tracing the crossovers. However, I'd avoid polyfill in the bottom. If you want to add some extra sound deadening, line the bottom with either foam or fiberglass. Curt indicated recently in a post that plain old 3 1/2" unbacked fiberglass insulation would work well. That's what I'd use. Be sure to not block a clear path from the drivers to the port.

Jim

[shame302]

Sweet, I used spacers to separate the main speaker from its base as well. Used aluminum stock. Love the look...

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28728

[tomdro]

I have read many of the Statements builds and I have found no reference to the use of poly stuffing. I would, however, continue the wedge foam down to the top of the lower shelf brace. As to the wiring issue, I would strip and twist the wires together leaving 1 wire about 1/2 inch longer than the others, then solder the twisted wires together. I wish I could help on the x-over, but since I made so many mistakes on mine, I"ll leave that to someone else. Make sure you test them BEFORE final installation of the speakers.

[soundemon]

Sweet, I used spacers to separate the main speaker from its base as well. Used aluminum stock. Love the look...

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28728

Awsome - yours is the picture that inspired me to build them this way!

[soundemon]

I have read many of the Statements builds and I have found no reference to the use of poly stuffing. I would, however, continue the wedge foam down to the top of the lower shelf brace. As to the wiring issue, I would strip and twist the wires together leaving 1 wire about 1/2 inch longer than the others, then solder the twisted wires together. I wish I could help on the x-over, but since I made so many mistakes on mine, I"ll leave that to someone else. Make sure you test them BEFORE final installation of the speakers.

Beuty - thanks. Thats where I was planning to mount the crossovers, but maybe I'll put them in the lower chamber with the port and complete the foamed walls in the woofer chamber...

[PoorboyMike]

The tweeter network is correct. You'll need to solder in another wire on to the 8ohm resistor lead that will go to the - on the tweeter. It would be on the right side of the top resistor in your picture.

I cant read the markings next to your terminal strip on the woofer.

Also, why only 3 terminals on each? You have "in + and -" and "out + and -, so you should have 4 to make things easier.

[soundemon]

The tweeter network is correct. You'll need to solder in another wire on to the 8ohm resistor lead that will go to the - on the tweeter. It would be on the right side of the top resistor in your picture.

I cant read the markings next to your terminal strip on the woofer.

Also, why only 3 terminals on each? You have "in + and -" and "out + and -, so you should have 4 to make things easier.

Thanks! That was my biggest question in wiring and understanding the crossovers: all of the "-" leads go to the same point, so theoretically, you only need 3 connetion points to wiring (?) but in pratice its easier to use 4 contact points... (I think I understand 8O :E )

[soundemon]

Even more shots of my (now) completed crossovers:
tweeter and woofers:



Mids:

[soundemon]

Here's a pic of my crossover testing. I tried all of them going together, and then listened to each of them individually. They all seem to be doing their jobs correctly.
All of them together tho - sounded terrible, very thin, and I had to turn the amp up a fair ways to get any volume. I'm sure this is just due to them being on the floor and not in their enclosure. does other peoples experience match this?