My STATEMENTS II + STATEMENTS II Center build project.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the input Jim.
You need the 4ohm capability because statements are 4 ohms?
I have been keeping my eyes on Emotiva XPA-5 btw.

There are very few audiophile quality speakers, DIY or other wise, that aren't 4 ohms or close to it. Receivers typically can't handle less than 6 ohms except at low volumes and the "real" watts per channel drops greatly with all channels driven.

Watch the used market for older quality 2-channel amps and buy what you need for your system or go to the Emotiva/Outlaw buy/sell forums and see who has the upgrade sickness for good deals on nearly new equipment, much of which under warranty.

BTW, I read a blurb that Emotiva is introducing a new line of Generation 3 amps that are not A/B design. They just lost my recommendation. :cry:

Jim

[danwee12345]

There are very few audiophile quality speakers, DIY or other wise, that aren't 4 ohms or close to it. Receivers typically can't handle less than 6 ohms except at low volumes and the "real" watts per channel drops greatly with all channels driven.

Watch the used market for older quality 2-channel amps and buy what you need for your system or go to the Emotiva/Outlaw buy/sell forums and see who has the upgrade sickness for good deals on nearly new equipment, much of which under warranty.

BTW, I read a blurb that Emotiva is introducing a new line of Generation 3 amps that are not A/B design. They just lost my recommendation. :cry:

Jim

Thanks Jim.I will keep in mind what you said when buying a one.

[TEK]

There are very few audiophile quality speakers, DIY or other wise, that aren't 4 ohms or close to it. Receivers typically can't handle less than 6 ohms except at low volumes and the "real" watts per channel drops greatly with all channels driven.

Watch the used market for older quality 2-channel amps and buy what you need for your system or go to the Emotiva/Outlaw buy/sell forums and see who has the upgrade sickness for good deals on nearly new equipment, much of which under warranty.

BTW, I read a blurb that Emotiva is introducing a new line of Generation 3 amps that are not A/B design. They. just lost my recommendation. :cry:

Jim

Why is that Jim?

[Jim Holtz]

Why is that Jim?

I'm a Luddite. I actually prefer a pure class A amp but I can never justify the cost over a good class A/B. From an audiophile perspective, I've yet to hear one of the other class amps that offers the sound quality that top quality class A or A/B amps offer. Maybe someday, but not so far in my audio journey. I consider the amp the foundation of your audio system. Its got to be solid or the rest of the system will never live up to its potential. Just my opinion, YMMV....

Jim

[TEK]

Do I understand you correctly when I get the impression that you have not actually heard their new amp?
A lot is going on in the class d area these days...

[Jim Holtz]

Do I understand you correctly when I get the impression that you have not actually heard their new amp?
A lot is going on in the class d area these days...

Nope, I haven't heard it since the new series has just been announced. I may be prejudging but class D amps have never rang the bell for me. Maybe they've come up with something to rival A & A/B designs? Time will tell.

However, they aren't cheaper, they're just smaller and run cooler which I don't see as a big benefit since size and temp weren't a problem in A & A/B amps, IMHO. I suspect they're probably cheaper to build but I may be wrong since I'm not an engineer.

We'll see how it turns out. That said, I'm extremely happy with my Gen 1 XPA-5. It sounds great and has killer power in 2-channel since it pools the power for what ever channels are driven.

Jim

[danwee12345]

Nope, I haven't heard it since the new series has just been announced. I may be prejudging but class D amps have never rang the bell for me. Maybe they've come up with something to rival A & A/B designs? Time will tell.

However, they aren't cheaper, they're just smaller and run cooler which I don't see as a big benefit since size and temp weren't a problem in A & A/B amps, IMHO. I suspect they're probably cheaper to build but I may be wrong since I'm not an engineer.

We'll see how it turns out. That said, I'm extremely happy with my Gen 1 XPA-5. It sounds great and has killer power in 2-channel since it pools the power for what ever channels are driven.

Jim

Jim, Do you recommend buying a pre-owned XPA-5?
Will it be the only way we can buy a one not so long into future?

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, Do you recommend buying a pre-owned XPA-5?
Will it be the only way we can buy a one not so long into future?

It's my understanding based on what I read that the new Gen. series will replace the previous models.

I bought my XPA-5 used in the Emotiva buy/sell forum from a member with 2 1/2 years of warranty remaining at a very good price. That would be my recommendation. There are other places too, including here at HT Guide, PE Tech Talk, Audiogon, etc. I'm not a fan of Ebay. Too many ripoffs for me to do business there.

HTH

Jim

[kevinm]

The Emotiva Lounge is a great place...I've bought all of my amps from there.

The new series is pretty cool....its modular, so you can expand the channels as needed (buy it in 2 channel configuration and add up to 5 more at a later date). I'm not sure I would dismiss it. The forum is pretty active, maybe head over there and see what they're thinking. Their products seem to just be getting better (sonically I mean) - I would be surprised if the new series was inferior.

[danwee12345]

It's my understanding based on what I read that the new Gen. series will replace the previous models.

I bought my XPA-5 used in the Emotiva buy/sell forum from a member with 2 1/2 years of warranty remaining at a very good price. That would be my recommendation. There are other places too, including here at HT Guide, PE Tech Talk, Audiogon, etc. I'm not a fan of Ebay. Too many ripoffs for me to do business there.

HTH

Jim

The Emotiva Lounge is a great place...I've bought all of my amps from there.

The new series is pretty cool....its modular, so you can expand the channels as needed (buy it in 2 channel configuration and add up to 5 more at a later date). I'm not sure I would dismiss it. The forum is pretty active, maybe head over there and see what they're thinking. Their products seem to just be getting better (sonically I mean) - I would be surprised if the new series was inferior.

Thanks Jim and Kevin.
But one small matter. I'm not in the States. I'm in Japan. So eBay would be the only option for me?

[danwee12345]

And what you guys think of the DIY route? Any suggestion on a tried and proven design? I think I have a better chance of getting parts in this country than getting a XPA-5 cheap.

[BobEllis]

I've been a DIY amp guy for quite a while. Over at the DIY Audio there are several amp boards available. The Honey Badger is a good choice for a first DIY project that can make a 150+W amp with the right output devices and power supply. To my ears it sounds better than the Leach amp (another favorite DIY build). You can probably build it for about $800 depending on how fancy you want to get with the enclosure.

[danwee12345]

I've been a DIY amp guy for quite a while. Over at the DIY Audio there are several amp boards available. The Honey Badger is a good choice for a first DIY project that can make a 150+W amp with the right output devices and power supply. To my ears it sounds better than the Leach amp (another favorite DIY build). You can probably build it for about $800 depending on how fancy you want to get with the enclosure.

Thanks Bob.
If I do it DIY I want it to be the first and last one to be built, since I know making it a hobby can be very expensive.
And I have some knowledge and background on electronics from my uni days. So if you suggest an advanced design under 1500$, 200+WPC what would you suggest?
I saw a one design called Beta 24, but Im not into details yet.
And what's more, I have plans to move to a 240V country in the future, so DIY route is certainly very appealing.

[BobEllis]

A Honey Badger with Sanken MT-200 outputs will meet that power goal into 4 ohms. See the threads at DIY Audio for more information. Basically with those outputs or another that the designer suggests and 60 volt rails you can get 350W into 4 ohms quite handily with good sound.

Your budget also takes you into the realm of nCore NC400 monoblocks/ They are supposed to be pretty darn good sounding, especially after a couple of easy tweaks that Jon suggests here https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...avecor-Ardents The SMPS600 power supply that goes with it requires just a power cord change to change input voltages.

[danwee12345]

A Honey Badger with Sanken MT-200 outputs will meet that power goal into 4 ohms. See the threads at DIY Audio for more information. Basically with those outputs or another that the designer suggests and 60 volt rails you can get 350W into 4 ohms quite handily with good sound.

Your budget also takes you into the realm of nCore NC400 monoblocks/ They are supposed to be pretty darn good sounding, especially after a couple of easy tweaks that Jon suggests here https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...avecor-Ardents The SMPS600 power supply that goes with it requires just a power cord change to change input voltages.

Thanks a lot Bob. Appreciate it.
Will check them tomorrow.
I forgot to mention. Any of those designs are 5+ channels? Or can I add later as the need arises?

[BobEllis]

It's DIY - build as many channels as you want, although a 300W+ Honey Badger will want a fair amount of heat sink. You'd need a huge case for more than 2 channels.

Hypex is now selling monoblock kits as well as standalone modules. You could pretty easily make a two channel amp with room to add more channels as the need arises in a case like http://www.modushop.biz/site/index.p...product_id=101 Not sure you can go to 5 channels in one of those, but a pair with 2 or three is still a fairly small stack.

[danwee12345]

It's DIY - build as many channels as you want, although a 300W+ Honey Badger will want a fair amount of heat sink. You'd need a huge case for more than 2 channels.

Hypex is now selling monoblock kits as well as standalone modules. You could pretty easily make a two channel amp with room to add more channels as the need arises in a case like http://www.modushop.biz/site/index.p...product_id=101 Not sure you can go to 5 channels in one of those, but a pair with 2 or three is still a fairly small stack.

Thanks. Building multiple chassis or multiple channels in the same chassis going to change the consumption power? I think it doesn't if a channel has its dedicated power supply. Am I right?

[TEK]

Thanks. Building multiple chassis or multiple channels in the same chassis going to change the consumption power? I think it doesn't if a channel has its dedicated power supply. Am I right?

One or several chassies will not affect the power consumption if you have the same internal setup.
However, you may for example power two nc400 with one smps600.
That will have a different power usage than a monoblock where one smps600 only drives one nc400.
If you go class D I would consider using nc400 for your mains and maybe the center channel, but maybe go for the much cheeper (but still good) UcD amps for the surround channels:

https://www.hypexshop.com/shop/shop.jsp?groupID=116

[Pknaz]

Nope, I haven't heard it since the new series has just been announced. I may be prejudging but class D amps have never rang the bell for me. Maybe they've come up with something to rival A & A/B designs? Time will tell.

However, they aren't cheaper, they're just smaller and run cooler which I don't see as a big benefit since size and temp weren't a problem in A & A/B amps, IMHO. I suspect they're probably cheaper to build but I may be wrong since I'm not an engineer.

We'll see how it turns out. That said, I'm extremely happy with my Gen 1 XPA-5. It sounds great and has killer power in 2-channel since it pools the power for what ever channels are driven.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I was doing some reading on the new Gen 3 XPA amps, based on the literature from Emotiva, it looks like they are going to be based off the XPR amps and will be Cass A up to a certain wattage, the Class A/B after that. have you read something different?

Regards

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

I was doing some reading on the new Gen 3 XPA amps, based on the literature from Emotiva, it looks like they are going to be based off the XPR amps and will be Cass A up to a certain wattage, the Class A/B after that. have you read something different?

Regards

I didn't see them being class a A or A/B but class H which has been around since the 70's and heavily marketed by Soundcraftsmen. I owned one way back in the day and it had lots of power, was small and light and sounded like crap. The turnoffs I had when reading the Emotiva press release and Audioholics was Class H and switching power supply that is regulated but switching doesn't enhance sound quality. I also owned Carver back in the 80's and it was a piece of crap. They eventually changed their designs and became an audiophile favorite but after a bad experience, I had no interest and had moved on to Musical Designs modified Haflers which are still competitive with current amps for sound quality and solid power.

Time will tell what they're coming out with and how good it sounds.

Jim

[danwee12345]

One or several chassies will not affect the power consumption if you have the same internal setup.
However, you may for example power two nc400 with one smps600.
That will have a different power usage than a monoblock where one smps600 only drives one nc400.
If you go class D I would consider using nc400 for your mains and maybe the center channel, but maybe go for the much cheeper (but still good) UcD amps for the surround channels:
https://www.hypexshop.com/shop/shop.jsp?groupID=116

Thanks guys. If I got it right, I notice that those popular DIY designs run way pricier than the commercial amps of same wattage. Is that the way around DIY camp?

[BobEllis]

Power is but one measure of an amp. Lower priced or even similarly priced commercial amps tend to sound like it. Clarity, tightness, musicality, freedom from haze, and other immeasureables tend to affect the quality of the sound. Another big advantage of DIY that tends to drive the price is power supply. Commercial amps designed to a price point often skimp on power transformers and filter capacitance. This shows up in a drop in power when all channels are driven to maximum. This may not happen or be noticeable for most users, so it's a good tradeoff for them. We DIYers tend to be more demanding, and can build stiff power supplies that won't limit the amp's capability. You can also move up to regulated front end supplies at a small premium in price but usually a big sonic improvement.

The NC400s are pretty much state of the art sonically according to reports here. See Jon's comments in TEK's thread on building an amp for his Ardents. So compare a pair of mono block kits to a pair of high end monoblocks rather than a mid-fi amp of equivalent power. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

[danwee12345]

Power is but one measure of an amp. Lower priced or even similarly priced commercial amps tend to sound like it. Clarity, tightness, musicality, freedom from haze, and other immeasureables tend to affect the quality of the sound. Another big advantage of DIY that tends to drive the price is power supply. Commercial amps designed to a price point often skimp on power transformers and filter capacitance. This shows up in a drop in power when all channels are driven to maximum. This may not happen or be noticeable for most users, so it's a good tradeoff for them. We DIYers tend to be more demanding, and can build stiff power supplies that won't limit the amp's capability. You can also move up to regulated front end supplies at a small premium in price but usually a big sonic improvement.

The NC400s are pretty much state of the art sonically according to reports here. See Jon's comments in TEK's thread on building an amp for his Ardents. So compare a pair of mono block kits to a pair of high end monoblocks rather than a mid-fi amp of equivalent power. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

NC400 is pretty much out of my league. Only 2channels for 1500$!
XPA-5 is 5 channels for 800$. While there might be sound quality difference, I doubt my ears are able to pick up the difference.

[danwee12345]

And even if it's called DIY isn't it kind of like assembling? Just like we assemble a desktop. Is there a design with schematics so I can build from scratch? Just like the Statements. Or nobody can build a one from scratch?

[Heli-Tim]

I've been a DIY amp guy for quite a while. Over at the DIY Audio there are several amp boards available. The Honey Badger is a good choice for a first DIY project that can make a 150+W amp with the right output devices and power supply. To my ears it sounds better than the Leach amp (another favorite DIY build). You can probably build it for about $800 depending on how fancy you want to get with the enclosure.

Bob,
Being an Avionics Nerd, I am very interested in a complete DIY system. As you've seen from my other posts, I am going with Curt & Jim's Statement II design speakers. I am curious if that $800.00 price tag includes 1 channel, or 2 for the HB ? Building an amp would be a blast for me! I am looking at an Emotiva XPA-5 if I don't build.

Sorry to post-jack!

[BobEllis]

H-T - that's about what I spent for a stereo badger in a 4U case from the DIY Audio store. Antek transformers are reasonably priced. You might spend a bit more if you buy newer filter capacitors. Mine were NOS from apexjr.com. Lots of build options so that even buying a ready made board you're much further into DIY than an nCore assembly. See the threads at DIY Audio and/or PM me.

[Pknaz]

I didn't see them being class a A or A/B but class H which has been around since the 70's and heavily marketed by Soundcraftsmen. I owned one way back in the day and it had lots of power, was small and light and sounded like crap. The turnoffs I had when reading the Emotiva press release and Audioholics was Class H and switching power supply that is regulated but switching doesn't enhance sound quality. I also owned Carver back in the 80's and it was a piece of crap. They eventually changed their designs and became an audiophile favorite but after a bad experience, I had no interest and had moved on to Musical Designs modified Haflers which are still competitive with current amps for sound quality and solid power.

Time will tell what they're coming out with and how good it sounds.

Jim

Ah, I just re-read the article. The amplifier stage is Class A, Class A/B based off the XPR amps and the power supply is Class H switching. Interesting, I wonder how that will change the sound of the amps. Here is the article I was reading: http://emotiva.com/whats-new/classic...y-configurable

---

The XPA Gen 3 is a significant step above the Gen 2 line. Using Emotiva’s lauded XPR amplifier topology for superior sonics, and designed with highly flexible modularity, the XPA Gen 3 accommodates 1 to 7 channels, multiple power levels, and is ideal for applications from from reference stereo to surround sound.

All XPA Gen 3 amplifiers share the same chassis and power supply; fully modular construction means that any XPA G3 amp can be upgraded by up to seven channels at another time. Each channel combines Emotiva’s differential input, fully complementary, short signal path Class A/B amplifier circuitry, and Optimized Class H™ power topology, to deliver both true audiophile sound quality and high efficiency.

---

[BobEllis]

Marketing gibberish trying to hide class H operation. The voltage amplification and driver stages can easily be class A, other than that last little bit of efficiency why go class AB?

[Pknaz]

Marketing gibberish trying to hide class H operation. The voltage amplification and driver stages can easily be class A, other than that last little bit of efficiency why go class AB?

Glad I bought my XPA-7 when I did, now if only the supplies will last on the XPA-2 or XPR-2 for another month or so, so that I can pick one of those up as well.

[Renron]

+1 on the Honey Badger Amp. I built mine for under $500 with some used parts from other amps that died an untimely death. Lots of power with the HB, I've yet to use more than 1/3 volume with my speakers ~87 dB sensitivity. Plenty loud...........wifee yells at me and goes to a different room.
Danwee, you can buy used amps on ebay pretty cheap, Haffler are old but very clean sounding amps, Conrad Johnson (sonographe), Adcom (meh) , Acurus, just to name a few.
I've owned all of those brands and I liked the sound of the Sonographe and Acurus best. My opinion. Which is worth nothing......
Acurus makes good 3 channel amps. Good sound and will drive L/R/C channels.
Ron

Tek, I didn't realize you were a Moderator? Congratulations! I would have been nicer to you............