Denon vs. classe & rotel. My opinion

[alebonau]

Thanks Race Car Driver, that's very informative! I've actually been a Denon fan for quite some years as I've always been appreciative of the numerous features their receivers offer, even in the budget models. I have one that I've used for the past 6 years and it had all the features I needed for quite some time and have been very reliable. I've never had any problems with it.

Now that I'm building a new system, my old Denon will be "re-assigned" to the bedroom along with my old system, bar the projector, which sadly will be unused and replaced by a new 1080P PJ. As before, I'm leaning heavily toward getting another Denon as much of my listening will be for HT and they have all the features I want that are unfortunately missing from some of the more expensive "high-end" processors such as all the latest lossless codecs, a plethora of HDMI inputs and outputs, Wi-Fi connectivity which will allow me to download firmware updates and stream music from my laptop, an optional iPod dock, etc., and at a very reasonable price, of course. I'm also quite intrigued by the Audyssey features.

The AVP/POA combo would be ideal, but I don't feel like spending USD$14K on amps right now. Therefore, I've been looking at the 4308A, which is the top-of-the-line integrated receiver that Denon has on offer here in Hong Kong.

With this Denon, however, I know I will still need to get some amps to power my 802Ds. Therefore, I've been looking at the Rotel RB-1092 stereo amp, which will provide 500 wpc and thus I would be using the Denon as just the pre-amp for the fronts, but still be using its 140 wpc for the surrounds. However, I'm also wondering if the Rotel RMB-1095 would be a better option, which at the same price-range will provide 5 channels of 200 wpc to my whole set-up, and therefore avoid using the Denon altogether as an amp. The drawback would be only feeding 200 wpc to the 802Ds.

What do you think would be the best option here, the RB-1092 for 500 wpc to my 802Ds and the Denon's 140 wpc to the surrounds, or the RMB-1095 which will deliver 200 wpc to all five channels?

Keep in mind I have only ordered a 4.0 system (Quadraphonic baby...haha) at the moment with 805Ss as surrounds, as I intend to purchase the HTM2D center speaker later as an upgrade, and probably the ASW825 subwoofer (the ASW855 is not available in Hong Kong, as HK apartments are quite small in general and I'm told by the dealer they don't think there is a big enough market for it).

If I go with the RB-1092 option, do you think I could just bi-amp/bridge the Denon to provide 280 wpc to the center speaker, or would I have to invest in the RB-1091 to power the center channel to better match the RB-1092-driven 802Ds?

If you think the stereo amp is the better way to go, I have also been recommended the Bryston 4B SST stereo amp as an alternative to the Rotel RB-1092 as it is within the same price-range, though it only provides 300 wpc. Any comparisons between the Bryston and the Rotel?

Thanks a lot in advance for your help.

kya dawn prior to the denon avp, I owned a denon 4308 myself that I used as an av pre-pro for a while. see a comparison I did vs the cary cinema 11

you'll fine the 4308 will make a fine av pre-pro and the amps on board could be quite usefull in the arrangement you intend to run. But I would probably only use as a pre-pro. while a quality 2ch amp will take a fair bit of load of the avrs built in amps. given the quality of speakers mentioned, I'd only go that way as a stop gap measure till you can get some quality amps setup to drive the speakers intended.

Best thing to do would be to demo some amps in yoru price range to suit your speakers. plenty of great amp brands, from rotel to nad, parasound, bryston, classe etc etc. once a bit of demoing is done youd have some ideas what is best for your needs and taste

[KyaDawn]

kya dawn prior to the denon avp, I owned a denon 4308 myself that I used as an av pre-pro for a while. see a comparison I did vs the cary cinema 11

you'll fine the 4308 will make a fine av pre-pro and the amps on board could be quite usefull in the arrangement you intend to run. But I would probably only use as a pre-pro. while a quality 2ch amp will take a fair bit of load of the avrs built in amps. given the quality of speakers mentioned, I'd only go that way as a stop gap measure till you can get some quality amps setup to drive the speakers intended.

Best thing to do would be to demo some amps in yoru price range to suit your speakers. plenty of great amp brands, from rotel to nad, parasound, bryston, classe etc etc. once a bit of demoing is done youd have some ideas what is best for your needs and taste

Thanks alebonau and great comparison review on AVS! I noticed you had some Focal Utopia Divas in the photo, are you still using them or did you get some B&Ws instead/as well? If you have B&Ws, how would you compare them with the Focals?

That's good to hear that the Denon 4308 worked out well for you as a pre-pro. That's mostly what I intend to use it for except for the surrounds, which I imagine they will be good enough to drive my 805S surrounds. If not, I can always get another stereo amp as an upgrade for them (or just get the Rotel RMB-1095 as a 5 channel amp), but I would like to get the amps for my fronts worked out first. Keep in mind my speakers are on order and will take approximately another 40 days to arrive here in Hong Kong, so I have a lot of time to figure out the electronics.

Demoing amps is not a problem here in Hong Kong. The only problem is that unlike in the States, dealers here won't let you take amps home to demo. So I would have to demo them in the store, which would make it difficult to do A/B testing with 802Ds or even the same set of speakers as the same dealer won't have all the brands I would want to try out. I could probably get an A/B test with Classe and Rotel, but not Rotel and Bryston, for example.

Because of that, along with demoing the amps myself, hearing other people's opinions and experiences is very helpful as well.

In terms of price point, the previously mentioned Rotels and Bryston are within my sweet spot of price vs. performance, which is between USD$2,000-$3,500 for a stereo amp, and possibly up to $5,000 for a stereo amp and matching monoblock or a 3 channel amp.

If I go the Bryston route, I think I may have to get the 6B SST over the 4B SST as the 6B provides 3 channels of 300 wpc, which I will need if I want to match the fronts with the center speaker, which I will purchase down the road. Unlike the Rotel RB-1092, the Bryston 4B SST does not have a monoblock counterpart that I can buy later with the center speaker.

Besides comment on the aforementioned Rotel and Bryston amps, if you have any other suggestions for within that price-range, that would be much appreciated.

[alebonau]

Thanks alebonau and great comparison review on AVS! I noticed you had some Focal Utopia Divas in the photo, are you still using them or did you get some B&Ws instead/as well? If you have B&Ws, how would you compare them with the Focals?

That's good to hear that the Denon 4308 worked out well for you as a pre-pro. That's mostly what I intend to use it for except for the surrounds, which I imagine they will be good enough to drive my 805S surrounds. If not, I can always get another stereo amp as an upgrade for them (or just get the Rotel RMB-1095 as a 5 channel amp), but I would like to get the amps for my fronts worked out first. Keep in mind my speakers are on order and will take approximately another 40 days to arrive here in Hong Kong, so I have a lot of time to figure out the electronics.

Demoing amps is not a problem here in Hong Kong. The only problem is that unlike in the States, dealers here won't let you take amps home to demo. So I would have to demo them in the store, which would make it difficult to do A/B testing with 802Ds or even the same set of speakers as the same dealer won't have all the brands I would want to try out. I could probably get an A/B test with Classe and Rotel, but not Rotel and Bryston, for example.

Because of that, along with demoing the amps myself, hearing other people's opinions and experiences is very helpful as well.

In terms of price point, the previously mentioned Rotels and Bryston are within my sweet spot of price vs. performance, which is between USD$2,000-$3,500 for a stereo amp, and possibly up to $5,000 for a stereo amp and matching monoblock or a 3 channel amp.

If I go the Bryston route, I think I may have to get the 6B SST over the 4B SST as the 6B provides 3 channels of 300 wpc, which I will need if I want to match the fronts with the center speaker, which I will purchase down the road. Unlike the Rotel RB-1092, the Bryston 4B SST does not have a monoblock counterpart that I can buy later with the center speaker.

Besides comment on the aforementioned Rotel and Bryston amps, if you have any other suggestions for within that price-range, that would be much appreciated.

hi kya, still very much own the focal diva utopias. they are a gorgeous speaker that I am absolutely in love with. they have a lovely warmth to the vocals, delicate yet scintillating top end and awesome bottom end. I have a huge respect of B&W speakers. a b&w fan from way back. a friend owned 802D's and think they are a lovely speaker too. probably a 2nd choice for me. but thats only my personal tastes & preferences speaking.

as for amps far be it for me to suggest. best would be to demo. even if cant do side by side with all brands. at the very least hearing them with the speakers in question would give some ideas whether they work for you to your taste and budget.

In the budget your talking your probably better off getting one decent multichannel power amp than 2ch and mono blocs and such. but yeah another option is a 3 ch amp for the front stage and using the internal amps on the denon for surrounds. as you say you can always upgrade that with a separate 2ch amp if need be

[wettou]

hi kya, still very much own the focal diva utopias. they are a gorgeous speaker that I am absolutely in love with.

Very nice speaker indeed Beryllium inverted dome tweeter:T Cool, you should move them of the wall they will sound even better :B

[alebonau]

Very nice speaker indeed Beryllium inverted dome tweeter:T Cool, you should move them of the wall they will sound even better :B

thanks wettou, they work really well in the setup, probably hard to tell from the pic, but actually not up against the wall. actually a fair way out

ps when can we see some pics of your own setup

[crytklmass]

well I must say I am glad I started this thread, I heard many opinions and it seemed to draw alot of attention. however, after week 2 my center channel stopped working with the denon poa. it ended up being a loose or bad connection inside the unit. while the unit was sent back for repair, I started auditioning the mcintosh mc205. wow. what a difference I heard. at least my ears did. It really opened up the 802d soundstage. I heard parts in music and movies I never hear before. I decided to spend the extra money and buy 2 mc501's and mc205 for my remaining speakers. now im waiting on the mx150 before I choose which processor to buy. I admit, I was a mcintosh "hater" probably because people I knew that owned them and even some salesman appeared imo to be snobbish with the mac gear. like I wasnt good enough for "that group" or "crowd". but im very happy with my mcintosh amps, I finally found something I am very happy with. not to mention after 2 hours or listening to music my mc205 is barely warm, the denon was cooking hot. I think I could have made hamburgers from the heat, lol. Im not saying anything bad about the denon combo. after all, that was my 1st choice. but ill admit I found something my ears heard as a better sound. ya I paid 3x as much, but im much happier. Now more controversy. my dealer sells wilson speakers. I heard the watt puppys, and damn. now I may need to upgrade my b&w's for wilson's, not sure about the puppys though. alittle too much for me, maybe the sophia. I'll audition them and go from there. just when you think your all done with your system, something comes in and changes it. ahhhhhh. I guess there are worse addictions.....lol

[Gump]

well I must say I am glad I started this thread, I heard many opinions and it seemed to draw alot of attention. however, after week 2 my center channel stopped working with the denon poa. it ended up being a loose or bad connection inside the unit. while the unit was sent back for repair, I started auditioning the mcintosh mc205. wow. what a difference I heard. at least my ears did. It really opened up the 802d soundstage. I heard parts in music and movies I never hear before. I decided to spend the extra money and buy 2 mc501's and mc205 for my remaining speakers. now im waiting on the mx150 before I choose which processor to buy. I admit, I was a mcintosh "hater" probably because people I knew that owned them and even some salesman appeared imo to be snobbish with the mac gear. like I wasnt good enough for "that group" or "crowd". but im very happy with my mcintosh amps, I finally found something I am very happy with. not to mention after 2 hours or listening to music my mc205 is barely warm, the denon was cooking hot. I think I could have made hamburgers from the heat, lol. Im not saying anything bad about the denon combo. after all, that was my 1st choice. but ill admit I found something my ears heard as a better sound. ya I paid 3x as much, but im much happier. Now more controversy. my dealer sells wilson speakers. I heard the watt puppys, and damn. now I may need to upgrade my b&w's for wilson's, not sure about the puppys though. alittle too much for me, maybe the sophia. I'll audition them and go from there. just when you think your all done with your system, something comes in and changes it. ahhhhhh. I guess there are worse addictions.....lol

Now that's what I call a Thread! Like a suspense novel.... 8)

Congratulations crytklmass on "hearing" the light .

I have the McIntosh MC-205 amp and love it's smooth, understated yet powerful sound. I'm currently considering switching it out with a Classe CA-5200 to match my new SSP-800, but I'm having a hard time justifying spending the extra money due to my system sounding so great right now with the 205 amp.

I've read a little about that new MX-150 pre/pro from McIntosh and it sounds spectacular as well.

Good luck with your journey!

[garak]

Congratulations crytklmass on "hearing" the light .

I have the McIntosh MC-205 amp and love it's smooth, understated yet powerful sound. I'm currently considering switching it out with a Classe CA-5200 to match my new SSP-800, but I'm having a hard time justifying spending the extra money due to my system sounding so great right now with the 205 amp.

Good luck with your journey!

I think crytklmass may be following the path that you're taking Gump. I expect to hear him say "I've switched out my Mac gear for the Classe SSP-800 and CA-XXXX" in a couple of months.

[Gump]

I think crytklmass may be following the path that you're taking Gump. I expect to hear him say "I've switched out my Mac gear for the Classe SSP-800 and CA-XXXX" in a couple of months.

It is indeed an evolutionary process, garak.

I remember 12yrs ago trying to convince my stereo guru that my $200 DCM speakers sounded better than the B&W 603's he was trying to sell me because they had more bass 8O .

At this level the differences can be subtle, but are definitely worth attaining for that last degree of enjoyment------if that's really even possible .

[Dmantis]

well I must say I am glad I started this thread, I heard many opinions and it seemed to draw alot of attention. however, after week 2 my center channel stopped working with the denon poa. it ended up being a loose or bad connection inside the unit. while the unit was sent back for repair, I started auditioning the mcintosh mc205. wow. what a difference I heard. at least my ears did. It really opened up the 802d soundstage. I heard parts in music and movies I never hear before. I decided to spend the extra money and buy 2 mc501's and mc205 for my remaining speakers. now im waiting on the mx150 before I choose which processor to buy. I admit, I was a mcintosh "hater" probably because people I knew that owned them and even some salesman appeared imo to be snobbish with the mac gear. like I wasnt good enough for "that group" or "crowd". but im very happy with my mcintosh amps, I finally found something I am very happy with. not to mention after 2 hours or listening to music my mc205 is barely warm, the denon was cooking hot. I think I could have made hamburgers from the heat, lol. Im not saying anything bad about the denon combo. after all, that was my 1st choice. but ill admit I found something my ears heard as a better sound. ya I paid 3x as much, but im much happier. Now more controversy. my dealer sells wilson speakers. I heard the watt puppys, and damn. now I may need to upgrade my b&w's for wilson's, not sure about the puppys though. alittle too much for me, maybe the sophia. I'll audition them and go from there. just when you think your all done with your system, something comes in and changes it. ahhhhhh. I guess there are worse addictions.....lol

Denon for years has made really nice solid products. Never did i put them in the class of Mac and to be fair not many companies can even compete with Mac.
Denon has a very strong market for features and flexibility. Never once did I ever thing they set the world on fire with there sound quality. Even the mighty AVR5308 which I have Installed many times, didn't sound like a high end receiver especially compared to B&K, Rotel , NAD and Mac.
But sound quality is personal and as long as the Ohm loads are supported from your speakers, it's your opinion alone which is right for you.
With all that being said, the last few years Denon has had mad quality control issues. You where lucky to get a Denon anything and it stayed working. 1 out of every 6 needs to be repaired or replaced. The last 2 dealers I have worked for are tired of it. It's hard to let go of Denon as for so many years they where the go to products. Now they are the fix and repair daily products. Not good for business.
This preamp and amp combo despite everything I have said looks killer. I wish I heard it but no one around me carries it. For features there is not another preamp on the high end market that can touch it.
I always said in the past Denon should make preamps and this one is a home room if it stays working.
Good luck with mac, I love mac. One day I would like to own a full mac system. The new mx150 looks to be awesome. I would love to own it myself. Without hearing it, I already know how it's going to sound. Mac really has not changed there sonic signature.

Dan

[sikoniko]

Going to CES this year has been an eye-opener to hearing a lot of the brands that I see in magazines that aren't available in my region. It wouldn't be fair to compare individual components, but I can compare room to room and share what I liked and dis-liked. I will say the Mac room didn't impress me. That really isn't my point though and I won't spend any time going into my thoughts, because its just my opinion. My point is, I find it very interesting how different everybody's tastes are. As long as we remain civil in our appreciation of audio reproduction, and not bull-headed in thinking our way is the only right way, we can all reach a conclusion of enjoying to listen to audio in whatever capacity.

I'm already thinking of how I want to prepare for next year though and trying to figure out which tracks I want to use for demo material.

[Orb]

Going to CES this year has been an eye-opener to hearing a lot of the brands that I see in magazines that aren't available in my region. It wouldn't be fair to compare individual components, but I can compare room to room and share what I liked and dis-liked. I will say the Mac room didn't impress me. That really isn't my point though and I won't spend any time going into my thoughts, because its just my opinion. My point is, I find it very interesting how different everybody's tastes are. As long as we remain civil in our appreciation of audio reproduction, and not bull-headed in thinking our way is the only right way, we can all reach a conclusion of enjoying to listen to audio in whatever capacity.

I'm already thinking of how I want to prepare for next year though and trying to figure out which tracks I want to use for demo material.

Absolutely true.
At the sensible upper region (some Krells,Macs,Classe,Chord E, AR, etc) it comes down to taste rather than sound stability/quality as all are pretty exceptional.
And as said by post earlier, Denon also have a place for audio enjoyment in people's homes, especially the pre-pros.
However the mention of build quality is interesting (I guess on the power amp side) and I do wonder if it comes down to the bridging options offered and loads driven, heat dissipation-energy absorption,etc.
Please note this is just surmising on my part (that I touched upon earlier in this thread), so do not take it to heart as I think the reference Denons are cracking products for what they offer.

Hope all had a good week.
Orb

[dmccombs]

I have a combination of B&W 802D speakers, Denon Prepro, and Classe CAM-400 Amps.

The 802D & CAM-400 has been discussed at length here, and I agree they are a terrific match. The Denon Prepro has a very clean neutral preamp and is a great match with the 802D/CAM-400 combo.

I have a decent Digital Front end (Denon 3930 w/ Cullen Modified PS Audio DAC), and a very good Analog front end (Soto Cosmos IV, Pass XOno Phono Pre, SME Tonearm). The Denon is natural sounding and allows both my digital & analog sources to come through without coloration or haze.

I have some friends that are high-end 2-channel guys and they often comment on how well the Denon Prepro performs as a Preamp. There are a fair number of 802D owners here in town, and these 2-channel guys have told me they have never heard a better sounding 802D setup.

I have not heard the Classe SSP-800 in my system yet, so I can't say which is better. But those who are knocking the Denon prepro, who haven't heard it yet, need to stop moving their lips until they've checked it out.

I think anyone that has heard the Denon would put it in the same class as the Classe and Krell, even if they think one of the others is better. The Denon Prepro is clearly not a mid-fi component with that sort of company.

Darrell

[Mark-n-b]

I have a combination of B&W 802D speakers, Denon Prepro, and Classe CAM-400 Amps.

The 802D & CAM-400 has been discussed at length here, and I agree they are a terrific match. The Denon Prepro has a very clean neutral preamp and is a great match with the 802D/CAM-400 combo.

I have a decent Digital Front end (Denon 3930 w/ Cullen Modified PS Audio DAC), and a very good Analog front end (Soto Cosmos IV, Pass XOno Phono Pre, SME Tonearm). The Denon is natural sounding and allows both my digital & analog sources to come through without coloration or haze.

I have some friends that are high-end 2-channel guys and they often comment on how well the Denon Prepro performs as a Preamp. There are a fair number of 802D owners here in town, and these 2-channel guys have told me they have never heard a better sounding 802D setup.

I have not heard the Classe SSP-800 in my system yet, so I can't say which is better. But those who are knocking the Denon prepro, who haven't heard it yet, need to stop moving their lips until they've checked it out.

I think anyone that has heard the Denon would put it in the same class as the Classe and Krell, even if they think one of the others is better. The Denon Prepro is clearly not a mid-fi component with that sort of company.

Darrell

A nice comment Darrell and I have also been thinking of using CA-M400s with my Denon AVP and 802Ds. I have a feeling that this will give me the best of all worlds.

In any case, if you are going to audition the SSP-800 I for one would be very interested in your findings!

Mark

[wettou]

I have a combination of B&W 802D speakers, Denon Prepro, and Classe CAM-400 Amps.

Cool please go Audition the SSP-800 and tell us your perspective Denon make good quality equipment but with High End people they are seen as mass market which they are for 99% of their revenue.

[dknightd]

The mac 501 should be able to drive any speaker you like. good choice.

[sikoniko]

I have a combination of B&W 802D speakers, Denon Prepro, and Classe CAM-400 Amps.

The 802D & CAM-400 has been discussed at length here, and I agree they are a terrific match. The Denon Prepro has a very clean neutral preamp and is a great match with the 802D/CAM-400 combo.

I have a decent Digital Front end (Denon 3930 w/ Cullen Modified PS Audio DAC), and a very good Analog front end (Soto Cosmos IV, Pass XOno Phono Pre, SME Tonearm). The Denon is natural sounding and allows both my digital & analog sources to come through without coloration or haze.

I have some friends that are high-end 2-channel guys and they often comment on how well the Denon Prepro performs as a Preamp. There are a fair number of 802D owners here in town, and these 2-channel guys have told me they have never heard a better sounding 802D setup.

I have not heard the Classe SSP-800 in my system yet, so I can't say which is better. But those who are knocking the Denon prepro, who haven't heard it yet, need to stop moving their lips until they've checked it out.

I think anyone that has heard the Denon would put it in the same class as the Classe and Krell, even if they think one of the others is better. The Denon Prepro is clearly not a mid-fi component with that sort of company.

Darrell

I think your arguement could be said about any product. It all comes down to personal taste.

As an observation, I find it interesting how people feel they need to defend their decisions. There is no such thing as better when it comes to this stuff. Better could be the $1000 BrandA over the $500 BrandA.

[Mark-n-b]

Cool please go Audition the SSP-800 and tell us your perspective Denon make good quality equipment but with High End people they are seen as mass market which they are for 99% of their revenue.

Who cares LOL? As long as the unit fulfils its intended purpose, who cares what these so called High End people think (whoever these people are)?

It seems to be a reoccurring theme here that the Denon must be s**t because it is designed by a company that does units for the mass market. Does that mean that the Veyron is s**t also, because it was conceived by VW?

The AVP is a fantastic unit with HD decoding, fully balanced design and sounds superb. The SSP-800 could be all these things too, but that takes nothing away from the Denon.

[dmccombs]

Cool please go Audition the SSP-800 and tell us your perspective Denon make good quality equipment but with High End people they are seen as mass market which they are for 99% of their revenue.

I would love to audition the SSP-800 and compare it against Denon, but it would be quite a hassle now for two reasons.

1) The closest dealer is an hour drive away (each way). I'm sure I could borrow a unit for a few days, but not a week. this makes getting the unit and returning the unit difficult with my work hours.

2) I got into vinyl this year, and I now have two racks, a 70" Display, 2 802Ds, a HTM2d, and a JL sub along the front wall. While I think I could make rack space, rewiring things to give the SSP-800 a test will involve lots of cussing and hours of work.

If was shopping for a new prepro, I would audition both. If I had heard from people I know/trust (that have heard both units) that the SSP-800 blows away the Denon, I would go to the hassle. But right now I can't justify the hassle required.

Darrell

[dmccombs]

I think your arguement could be said about any product. It all comes down to personal taste.

As an observation, I find it interesting how people feel they need to defend their decisions. There is no such thing as better when it comes to this stuff. Better could be the $1000 BrandA over the $500 BrandA.

1) I was providing input to the OP's original question and was not "defending" my decision. I did put in my thoughts about the Denon because others in the thread (most of whom have never heard it) said it was Mid-Fi. I gave my impressions so those who are considering the Denon would have balanced feedback.

2) Of course when someone says "Better" they are viewing things from their perspective. I'm not going to type "IMHO" every time I compare something, or write out a disclaimer whenever I give my opinion on a product.

I'm not going into a pissing match with you so don't be offended if I don't reply to whatever you post next. I'm here to help, and to get help from other members, not squabble over wording, grammar, and ego issues. On the other hand, if want to discuss the equipment and its strengths, weakness, synergy, etc. I am all ears.

[wettou]

Who cares LOL? As long as the unit fulfils its intended purpose, who cares what these so called High End people think (whoever these people are)?

It seems to be a reoccurring theme here that the Denon must be s**t because it is designed by a company that does units for the mass market. Does that mean that the Veyron is s**t also, because it was conceived by VW?

The AVP is a fantastic unit with HD decoding, fully balanced design and sounds superb. The SSP-800 could be all these things too, but that takes nothing away from the Denon.

Bower & Wilkins also does mass market with their in wall speakers and yet they have high end as well and are good quality.

I guess with the Denon AVP you get more logos and technologies, as with the Classé SSP-800 which is more for the purist oh!diophile :B!

Some one of good reputation should make a comparison since their MSRP price are so close. Kal?

I had the opportunity to listen to the Classé SSP-800 with 802D, Classé CA-5200 and 803D in the back and was truly impressed. Just waiting....

No one sells the Denon in my area at all the big retailers are gone, Good Guys, Tweeter, Circuit City, Magnolia HiFi vanished.... Best Buy remains but I can't stand their shops.. And no small stereo shops sell Denon as you can get it on the internet cheaper...

[Aussie Geoff]

One more vote for the Denon Pre-Pro

Hi,

After listening to a wide range of gear I am the proud owner of the Denon AVP1 Pre-Pro as well... Etremely impressive equipment. Musucally I have heard some top end stereo pre-pros to beat it in pure stereo, but you have to A-B to notice and the versatility is amazing. Plays any current format really well. And once I engage the Aussyey Multi-EQ XT magic it is simply awesome - creates this 3 dimensional 'walk through sound bubble I have never heard before. The sound stage it can create from even 2 channel dolby digital is incredible.

It was good enough for me to give up my much loved Rotel RSP-1098 as it is just as musical (to my ears) but extracts even more details from movie tracks. I have not found any pre-processor to equall it in sound quality and features. But, I have not heard the Classe SP-800 so it just might...

And Denon's support seems excellent so far - very regular internet based firmware updates to keep the unit up to date and fix any minor issues.


Geoff

[scanido]

What is the MSRP (CAD and USD) of this new Denon AVP1??

[audioqueso]

You know, I'm going to chime in and say that I can believe and agree the OP, and I say that from experience.
A little over a year ago I had the chance of auditioning some great pre/pro combos and integrated amps. Out of several hi-end choices from Marantz Reference series, Classe Delta's, the dealer had regarded the Denon PMA-SA1 as the best. I did compare the Denon versus a Rotel (10 series), and there was no competition. As I previously wrote, the Denon was just so liquid smooth and detailed and natural sounding compared to the Rotel.

Here is my post from back in 2007.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=368609&postcount=30

So I can imagine how Denon's new hi-end can really be that good.

[crytklmass]

WOW!!!! I never thought my 1st thread would start so much discussion between us. I think it's been great and hear are my experiences. and my opinions. I'll start by saying I own a Denon AVR 4800 that was collecting dust. For the past year I was using a Rotel 1090, 1095, & 1068 for my home theater and 2ch. stereo. My speakers are B&W 802d's fronts, HTM2d center, and SCM1 rears, ASW855 sub. The Rotel combo just wasn't doing it for me so I started this thread while I was auditioning different equipment. I wanted others objective opinions as well. The following are my opinions only...you may agree or disagree... I listened to Bryston first. I did not hear much of a difference, but the 20 year warranty was inviting. I then tried the Denon POA, the 1st one arrived and sounded very good bridged 2 ch. and for the cost, much better than my Rotel's. however the center was not functioning. I returned the POA and received another. This one worked and again sounded awesome. I ordered the AVP to try along side it. While I was waiting, I was testing the Denon AVP with my Denon avr 4800 and rotel as my pre-pro trying to test each amp fairly. 3 days later and my Denon POA lost connection to its rear channels. arghh. I returned it and while I was waiting for a 3rd replacement, I auditioned a mac 207. wow, they really opened up my speakers. I stopped my Denon order and decided Mcintosh was the winner but I had 1 more competitor to audition. Classe.. This was the hardest decision by far. The classe sounded awesome as well as the Mcintosh. Pricing is close to even, although I was receiving a better deal with Mcintosh amps, but the classe ssp800 is about $5,000 less than Mcintosh mx150. (apples to apples). In the end I decided to purchase 2 Mcintosh 501 monoblocks for my fronts, mc205 for my center and rear, and the mx136 for processing, maybe ill upgrade next year to the mx150. I'll wait for the reviews and any bugs/kinks to get worked out.
I want to say thank you, to ALL of your comments and suggestions and not bashing other companies etc. I don't think Mac is the best amp ever and neither are B&W speakers. but for me, my purpose, what I hear, they were the best choice..money vs quality etc. I spent more than I would have vs the Denon system, the classe would have probably been close to the same cost.
Well, that's it for this thread.................Thanks again for all your answers and suggestions.

[Alaric]

A MC205 and two MC501s??? Denon was part of the question why? I have no issue with Denon , just wondering.

[scanido]

WOW!!!! I never thought my 1st thread would start so much discussion between us. I think it's been great and hear are my experiences. and my opinions. I'll start by saying I own a Denon AVR 4800 that was collecting dust. For the past year I was using a Rotel 1090, 1095, & 1068 for my home theater and 2ch. stereo. My speakers are B&W 802d's fronts, HTM2d center, and SCM1 rears, ASW855 sub. The Rotel combo just wasn't doing it for me so I started this thread while I was auditioning different equipment. I wanted others objective opinions as well. The following are my opinions only...you may agree or disagree... I listened to Bryston first. I did not hear much of a difference, but the 20 year warranty was inviting. I then tried the Denon POA, the 1st one arrived and sounded very good bridged 2 ch. and for the cost, much better than my Rotel's. however the center was not functioning. I returned the POA and received another. This one worked and again sounded awesome. I ordered the AVP to try along side it. While I was waiting, I was testing the Denon AVP with my Denon avr 4800 and rotel as my pre-pro trying to test each amp fairly. 3 days later and my Denon POA lost connection to its rear channels. arghh. I returned it and while I was waiting for a 3rd replacement, I auditioned a mac 207. wow, they really opened up my speakers. I stopped my Denon order and decided Mcintosh was the winner but I had 1 more competitor to audition. Classe.. This was the hardest decision by far. The classe sounded awesome as well as the Mcintosh. Pricing is close to even, although I was receiving a better deal with Mcintosh amps, but the classe ssp800 is about $5,000 less than Mcintosh mx150. (apples to apples). In the end I decided to purchase 2 Mcintosh 501 monoblocks for my fronts, mc205 for my center and rear, and the mx136 for processing, maybe ill upgrade next year to the mx150. I'll wait for the reviews and any bugs/kinks to get worked out.
I want to say thank you, to ALL of your comments and suggestions and not bashing other companies etc. I don't think Mac is the best amp ever and neither are B&W speakers. but for me, my purpose, what I hear, they were the best choice..money vs quality etc. I spent more than I would have vs the Denon system, the classe would have probably been close to the same cost.
Well, that's it for this thread.................Thanks again for all your answers and suggestions.

Wait a minute, not so fast! ...so how did you like the MX136 compared to the Denon AVP?? Is it close to warrant owning the older processor?

[misterdoggy]

Hey Guys,

Been a while since I weighed in here and glad to see all the info flying around

Let me report that I just bought the AVP A1HD Denon and it is one Ass Kicking Processor !! I've owned MX McIntosh, Meridian 861, Krell, Rotel, Anthem D2, and the Denon smokes them All. After all McIntosh is owned by Denon and many interior parts come from Denon.

But the AVP is one fantastic Processor. Only the Meridian beat it and that was as a Preamp Stereo, otherwise the Denon was equal or better as a processor and the Meridian didn't offer upscaling video so no question.

After running the Audyssey Room Correction it was one great unit.

I have always loved McIntosh/B&W sound so it would be hard to change to the POA, but I was tempted. The resale value of McIntosh Amps is like no loss after a year or 2, while I was afraid of putting down that kind of $$ caus you really don't know if Denon Amp will lose value in the long run.

Glad to be back Hi to all

[misterdoggy]

Wait a minute, not so fast! ...so how did you like the MX136 compared to the Denon AVP?? Is it close to warrant owning the older processor?

I've owned the 135 which is a 136 with hdmi "switching" and it was the lousiest Processor I have ever owned. My wife and I kept asking each other "what did he say" and thats with a htm1d driven by a mcintosh amp. It was really unclear and completely worthless as a preamp. I had to have a C2200 which is a great preamp for Stereo.

Listen, there is no question that the Denon AVP is SUPERIOR IMHO. :T :T

However for amplification and preamplification McIntosh is hard to beat...

[dmccombs]

But the AVP is one fantastic Processor. Only the Meridian beat it and that was as a Preamp Stereo, otherwise the Denon was equal or better as a processor and the Meridian didn't offer upscaling video so no question.

Did you try the Denon as a Preamp using the Pure Direct or Stereo mode? The Pure Direct mode is way cleaner than Stereo mode. I use the Pure Direct with my Turntable and it is very neutral.

[misterdoggy]

Did you try the Denon as a Preamp using the Pure Direct or Stereo mode? The Pure Direct mode is way cleaner than Stereo mode. I use the Pure Direct with my Turntable and it is very neutral.

I know you would like me to say something positive and its very adequate, but it aint no Preamp like a dedicated Preamp ie: C220, C2200 or C2300 McIntosh's.

[misterdoggy]

I'm curious if anyone has had a chance to make an a/b comparison between the POA and any McIntosh Amp ?

Love to hear about that comparison (of course with B&W speakers)

[scanido]

I know you would like me to say something positive and its very adequate, but it aint no Preamp like a dedicated Preamp ie: C220, C2200 or C2300 McIntosh's.

Agreed as those are dedicated stereo pre-amps.

However, from your observation is the Denon AVP also superior to the others in 2 channel? I like the all in one box solution!

[misterdoggy]

Agreed as those are dedicated stereo pre-amps.

However, from your observation is the Denon AVP also superior to the others in 2 channel? I like the all in one box solution!

AVP is up there with the best

better than MX Mcintosh, as good as Anthem, only Meridian 861V4 outdoes it in the Preamp section but hey its $20k, it is clear and wonderful, but no upscaling all in one box.

[dmccombs]

I know you would like me to say something positive and its very adequate, but it aint no Preamp like a dedicated Preamp ie: C220, C2200 or C2300 McIntosh's.

No, I actually wasn't set on you saying "something positive". I just wanted to be sure you are using the best mode Denon has for your comparison. If you used the Denon Pure Direct mode and the dedicated Pre sounded better, then so be it.

[misterdoggy]

pure direct is just a passthru is it not, so the Processor should do nothing ?

I would want a preamp that does do something. For a one box solution its great stuff

[wettou]

Hey Guys, Been a while since I weighed in here and glad to see all the info flying around

Let me report that I just bought the AVP A1HD Denon and it is one Ass Kicking Processor !! I've owned MX McIntosh, Meridian 861, Krell, Rotel, Anthem D2, and the Denon smokes them All. After all McIntosh is owned by Denon and many interior parts come from Denon.

But the AVP is one fantastic Processor.

Welcome back, did you move and sold your house? I thought you had the Classé SSP-800??

[misterdoggy]

Welcome back, did you move and sold your house? I thought you had the Classé SSP-800??

No Still in the same spot, downsizing or resizing to 2 systems

It was a Meridian 861V4 was the last one before the AVP

I like that AVP though

People are talking about it on all the forums. Its the Mercedes in Honda clothing :T :T

[wettou]

No Still in the same spot, downsizing or resizing to 2 systems It was a Meridian 861V4 was the last one before the AVP, I like that AVP though

People are talking about it on all the forums. Its the Mercedes in Honda clothing :T :T

At $7500 I am not sure I would call it a Honda, Classé SSP-800 is $8000

[misterdoggy]

you can find deals if you search

it sells for 7500 euros in europe but I bought it in the uk for 4800 euros

[scanido]

you can find deals if you search

it sells for 7500 euros in europe but I bought it in the uk for 4800 euros

Any pics of this beast in the flesh?

[Orb]

At $7500 I am not sure I would call it a Honda, Classé SSP-800 is $8000

Heh here in the UK the list price for the AVP-A1HD £5,000.
I agree it is a stunning processor but the price, still even an SSP-600 is £5,333 so maybe it is not that bad when in context.

Orb

[audioqueso]

Let me report that I just bought the AVP A1HD Denon and it is one Ass Kicking Processor !! I've owned MX McIntosh, Meridian 861, Krell, Rotel, Anthem D2, and the Denon smokes them All. After all McIntosh is owned by Denon and many interior parts come from Denon.

But the AVP is one fantastic Processor. Only the Meridian beat it and that was as a Preamp Stereo, otherwise the Denon was equal or better as a processor and the Meridian didn't offer upscaling video so no question.

...and this is coming from the guy who has spent wayyy too much on different toys. Not to put one man's word more valueable than the other... but we all know you've tried a lot of different components. So it's comforting to hear compliments on the Denon.

Nice to have you back.

[misterdoggy]

...and this is coming from the guy who has spent wayyy too much on different toys. Not to put one man's word more valueable than the other... but we all know you've tried a lot of different components. So it's comforting to hear compliments on the Denon.

Nice to have you back.

Yeah, been up and down the road, tried a lot of things, went to the very very top and then scaled back down a bit.

I explain it like the guy in close encounters that was compelled by some unknown force to build this huge mound in my living room, until one day, it "was" my living room.

It became too big htm1d and 800D's with 1201 mcintosh amps. The signs were clear when my back went out moving stuff around.

I came to the realization that the difference between having huge amps and huge speakers and quality mid sized amps and mid sized speakers WAS NOT THAT GREAT. Of course I'm talking about normal rooms, not huge rooms or stadiums.

So with the right combo = right speaker with the right amp, there is a short amount of gain in listening quality, while there is more to gain with room and placement. On a recent forum, someone wrote something very noteworthy: "A room is a speaker" that the room is like a speaker the way it reacts reflects etc and just a continuation of the speaker you are using.

Example: I built a second system with 804S' and a McIntosh 252 run by a Meridian 808i CD/Preamp. The room is very small and thick carpet and it is almost like a sound room, and the sound might even be sweeter than the main room with 800D's driven by 1201 mcintosh (1200 watt amps).

The listening pleasure is equal. So bigger isn't always better.....

[alebonau]

good to read mister D your positive experience with the denon as with others that have experienced it . another very happy denon avp owner here not suprised at all in the results of comparisons done.

ps would be interesting indeed how you find the denon POA mch amp vs other options. I guess in all this also a factor is equipment matching and personal preferences for sound charecter with particular speakers that might be the decider