Denon vs. classe & rotel. My opinion

[misterdoggy]

good to read mister D your positive experience with the denon as with others that have experienced it . another very happy denon avp owner here not suprised at all in the results of comparisons done.

ps would be interesting indeed how you find the denon POA mch amp vs other options. I guess in all this also a factor is equipment matching and personal preferences for sound charecter with particular speakers that might be the decider

Ii am trying to find out the very same information. A comparison of Denons POA against a multi Amp McIntosh.

If you bridge the POA you can arrive at 300 Watts a Channel.

I am very used to and let me say happy with B&W and McIntosh sound.

The POA would cost me as you can only buy it new around 5200 Euros.

I have MC205 5x200 Watts McIntosh which cost me used landed 3500 Euros.

So its considerably more expensive for th POA.

McIntosh sells and resells and holds it pricing. I don't have experience with Denon products on their resale so if there is some feedback to have here that woudl be great, but I'm afraid a year or 2 down the line, the price could really get killed on a POA while McIntosh you buy today used will probably sell for near the same price.

[alebonau]

Ii am trying to find out the very same information. A comparison of Denons POA against a multi Amp McIntosh.

If you bridge the POA you can arrive at 300 Watts a Channel.

I am very used to and let me say happy with B&W and McIntosh sound.

The POA would cost me as you can only buy it new around 5200 Euros.

I have MC205 5x200 Watts McIntosh which cost me used landed 3500 Euros.

So its considerably more expensive for th POA.

McIntosh sells and resells and holds it pricing. I don't have experience with Denon products on their resale so if there is some feedback to have here that woudl be great, but I'm afraid a year or 2 down the line, the price could really get killed on a POA while McIntosh you buy today used will probably sell for near the same price.

I couldnt say md, as never seen a POA for sale second hand. used pricing can be a real unknown, as they say anything is only worth used what someone else is willing to pay at the time !. I have huge respect for the MC amps and have a good following both in my country and yours am sure.

ideal if you can find a helpfull dealer ready to bring over to your place so you can compare for yourself to decide, in oz a possiblity with dealers ready and helpfull with that kind of thing but no idea if can do in your situation.

I dont use the denon POA myself but a local though superb mch amp instead that seems to suit my speakers and preferences. have seen the denon POA in the flesh though and boy it is a sight to behold ! theres no way I could even physically fit it in my system let alone afford it ! :B

[alebonau]

Hi,

After listening to a wide range of gear I am the proud owner of the Denon AVP1 Pre-Pro as well... Etremely impressive equipment. Musucally I have heard some top end stereo pre-pros to beat it in pure stereo, but you have to A-B to notice and the versatility is amazing. Plays any current format really well. And once I engage the Aussyey Multi-EQ XT magic it is simply awesome - creates this 3 dimensional 'walk through sound bubble I have never heard before. The sound stage it can create from even 2 channel dolby digital is incredible.

It was good enough for me to give up my much loved Rotel RSP-1098 as it is just as musical (to my ears) but extracts even more details from movie tracks. I have not found any pre-processor to equall it in sound quality and features. But, I have not heard the Classe SP-800 so it just might...

And Denon's support seems excellent so far - very regular internet based firmware updates to keep the unit up to date and fix any minor issues.


Geoff

welcome geoff to club denon ! hey who knows we might even have a club denon over here on htguide one day :B

PS well put re Aussyey Multi-EQ XT and the magic it weaves in creating a 3 dimensional "walk through sound bubble". I was listening to divertimenti a lovely blu-ray 24/192 music disc and thinking just along those lines yesterday in the lovely experience it recreates

[misterdoggy]

No, I actually wasn't set on you saying "something positive". I just wanted to be sure you are using the best mode Denon has for your comparison. If you used the Denon Pure Direct mode and the dedicated Pre sounded better, then so be it.

DM Back to this thought of yours. Pure Direct means that the source is going directly to the amp thru the Denon wiring. As if the Denon "does not exist".

For me "Pure Direct" is the same as saying "Pass Thru"

So to say the Denon sounds great in Pure direct is a Oxymoron.

It doesn't come into play.

The best way to use any Processor is to use your CD player as a "transport" and send a digital signal to be "processed" by the Processor, thereby deriving its name Processor.

After all a CD is digital information which needs to be converted to analog and that should be the job left to the best DAC's, which the Denon AVP is well armed to do.

If your CD player sounds better in Pure Direct, then your CD players dac's are doing a better job of conversion than the AVP.

The AVP has several Burr Brown DAC's right up there with the finest equipment offered, so it should be great, if not run your Audyssey again and maybe that will change

[misterdoggy]

Hi,

After listening to a wide range of gear I am the proud owner of the Denon AVP1 Pre-Pro as well... Etremely impressive equipment. Musucally I have heard some top end stereo pre-pros to beat it in pure stereo, but you have to A-B to notice and the versatility is amazing. Plays any current format really well. And once I engage the Aussyey Multi-EQ XT magic it is simply awesome - creates this 3 dimensional 'walk through sound bubble I have never heard before. The sound stage it can create from even 2 channel dolby digital is incredible.

It was good enough for me to give up my much loved Rotel RSP-1098 as it is just as musical (to my ears) but extracts even more details from movie tracks. I have not found any pre-processor to equall it in sound quality and features. But, I have not heard the Classe SP-800 so it just might...

And Denon's support seems excellent so far - very regular internet based firmware updates to keep the unit up to date and fix any minor issues.


Geoff

Hiya Geoff !

What are you using for Power with the AVP ? I'm thinkin seriously about changing from McIntosh to the POA. I just got a great deal offered 4000£ brand spankin new. Need to give it a good think.
MD

[Alaric]

Hey Guys,

Been a while since I weighed in here and glad to see all the info flying around

Let me report that I just bought the AVP A1HD Denon and it is one Ass Kicking Processor !! I've owned MX McIntosh, Meridian 861, Krell, Rotel, Anthem D2, and the Denon smokes them All. After all McIntosh is owned by Denon and many interior parts come from Denon.

But the AVP is one fantastic Processor. Only the Meridian beat it and that was as a Preamp Stereo, otherwise the Denon was equal or better as a processor and the Meridian didn't offer upscaling video so no question.

After running the Audyssey Room Correction it was one great unit.

I have always loved McIntosh/B&W sound so it would be hard to change to the POA, but I was tempted. The resale value of McIntosh Amps is like no loss after a year or 2, while I was afraid of putting down that kind of $$ caus you really don't know if Denon Amp will lose value in the long run.

Glad to be back Hi to all

...and that answers this silly question

A MC205 and two MC501s??? Denon was part of the question why? I have no issue with Denon , just wondering.

[misterdoggy]

...and that answers this silly question

Me No Understand :huh:

[dmccombs]

DM Back to this thought of yours. Pure Direct means that the source is going directly to the amp thru the Denon wiring. As if the Denon "does not exist".

For me "Pure Direct" is the same as saying "Pass Thru"

So to say the Denon sounds great in Pure direct is a Oxymoron.

It doesn't come into play.

The best way to use any Processor is to use your CD player as a "transport" and send a digital signal to be "processed" by the Processor, thereby deriving its name Processor.

After all a CD is digital information which needs to be converted to analog and that should be the job left to the best DAC's, which the Denon AVP is well armed to do.

If your CD player sounds better in Pure Direct, then your CD players dac's are doing a better job of conversion than the AVP.

The AVP has several Burr Brown DAC's right up there with the finest equipment offered, so it should be great, if not run your Audyssey again and maybe that will change

Doggy,

You are correct. the Pure Direct is simply a Pass-Thru, just like a dedicate Pre would be.

I use this mode for my Turnatable, and for my CD/DAC combo. the Denon's DACs are very nice, but my seperate DAC (PS Audio w/ Cullen Mods) is even better.

I do use the Denon as a processor for my non 2-CH sources (Satellite TV, DVD, Bluray, DVD-A, SACD), and the terrific does a terrific job with those.

I disagree that saying the Denon sounds good in Pure direct mode (Pass-Thru). I think the biggest challenge of a preamp is to get out of the way and pass the signal through as cleanly as possible. If you have good sources, your preamp shouldn't need to "help". it. IMO

But hey, try the different modes, and use them however suits you and your room and sources the best. That is one of the nice things about the Denon. It is very configurable. People can use Audessey, NO EQ, with or without a sub, Pass Thru.

Have Fun, trying out the options. You will be busy for months. :rofl: I know I spent months learning and tweaking the Denon when I first got it.

Darrell

[Alaric]

Me No Understand :huh:

I had asked why Denon was being considered with a Mac budget. You answered that question! Good info , and I'm always willing to learn, Thanks!

[misterdoggy]

I'm thinkin hard about that Denon POA as the McIntosh MC205 does not look as good as it used to with the Denon AVP. Its a Mismatch and to boot I have the 3800BDCI Denon so I may end up with all Denon.

Make no mistake, these Denon pieces can run right along with the top dogs, McIntosh, Classe etc, Definitely with anything out there in the HT range !

[wettou]

I'm thinkin hard about that Denon POA as the McIntosh MC205 does not look as good as it used to with the Denon AVP. Its a Mismatch and to boot I have the 3800BDCI Denon so I may end up with all Denon.

Make no mistake, these Denon pieces can run right along with the top dogs, McIntosh, Classe etc, Definitely with anything out there in the HT range !

Carefull what you say you might offend many people Denon = Classé McIntosh... :B

[misterdoggy]

Carefull what you say you might offend many people Denon = Classé McIntosh... :B

Wettou,

Nothing there is offensive ?

I just was saying the Vintage look of the McIntosh with the Glass and the Super Modern look of Denon with Polished Champagne conflict with each other

[wettou]

Wettou, Nothing there is offensive ?

I just was saying the Vintage look of the McIntosh with the Glass and the Super Modern look of Denon with Polished Champagne conflict with each other

Joking :B

[Alaric]

I'm thinkin hard about that Denon POA as the McIntosh MC205 does not look as good as it used to with the Denon AVP. Its a Mismatch and to boot I have the 3800BDCI Denon so I may end up with all Denon.

Make no mistake, these Denon pieces can run right along with the top dogs, McIntosh, Classe etc, Definitely with anything out there in the HT range !

Yeah , I have to move along with the times. I remember when Denon was a mid-fi loser-along with Marantz-I love my 'lil Marantz integrated. D&M Holdings has made some smart moves over the last few years , I should probably have considered that before I opened my yap. :T

[misterdoggy]

Ah

I understand. Well with McIntosh and Classe you are paying for the Name 20% above price just for the name. But those Denon pieces are performance winners and everybody borrows from the Denon technology. Little firms like classe and mcintosh can't put out the $$ like Denon can for research lets face it.

[Glen B]

With Classé versus Denon the difference in price just gets you get the FINEST quality parts versus just GOOD or FINE quality, superior PC boards, solid machined RCA connectors versus stamped metal, etc. 5/8" -3/4" front panels versus 5/16" also cost more. I own one Denon component which I cherish and would buy another. Last year I traded my aging Classé CD player for a Marantz Reference SACD player. I have no problem with these traditionally mass market brands, just looking to keep it real when it comes to the comparisons.

[Alaric]

With Classé versus Denon the difference in price just gets you get the FINEST quality parts versus just GOOD or FINE quality, superior PC boards, solid machined RCA connectors versus stamped metal, etc. 5/8" -3/4" front panels versus 5/16" also cost more. I own one Denon component which I cherish and would buy another. I have no problem with the brand, just looking to keep it real when it comes to the comparison.

Now that gets to the heart of the matter-and why I ask silly questions. Not having access to the innards of the above mentioned components , and lacking the expertise to recognize them anyway , I jump into threads where I know nothing.

[sikoniko]

Ah

I understand. Well with McIntosh and Classe you are paying for the Name 20% above price just for the name. But those Denon pieces are performance winners and everybody borrows from the Denon technology. Little firms like classe and mcintosh can't put out the $$ like Denon can for research lets face it.

I don't know about that. Classe has the backing of the B&W group and has some of the most notable engineers in audio-engineering from Mark Levinson, Linn, Proceed, Madrigal, etc. $$ doesn't supercede experience. Look at the US Govt, it threw money at the banks, and that didn't fix the economy...

If you want to talk about brands that you pay 20% for the name, you're talking Theta, Meridian, Halcro, SimAudio, Krell (notice the pricing of the Evo series is considerably higher than the FPB), Mark Levinson (who basically is rebadging the Lexicon 12HD, putting a screen on it and calling it a 502 and selling it for $32k!!!!). If you were paying for the Classe brand, you'd be paying over $10k for the SSP-800. It was originally to be priced at $12k.

Bryston will be selling the SP-3 at $10k and right now they are looking to not do onboard decoding as a way to save them licensing costs.

Coming from CES, I will say that attitude of the "high-end" is that they are glad they aren't at a price point to compete with the Denon's of the world. MrDoggy, I think your conversion shows that they should be.

What it ultimately comes down to is that it doesn't really matter what the facts are, consumer perception will drive the market. As long as Denon can continue to make consumers perceive that their products are better, can do more for less, and produce a similar experience, then thats what people will buy. Its the law of diminishing returns.


Don't read into this that I'm Denon bashing, because I'm not. I'm actually saying good on them for being able to deliver a product that has the ability to change consumer perception. :T

[misterdoggy]

I don't know about that. Classe has the backing of the B&W group and has some of the most notable engineers in audio-engineering from Mark Levinson, Linn, Proceed, Madrigal, etc. $$ doesn't supercede experience. Look at the US Govt, it threw money at the banks, and that didn't fix the economy...

If you want to talk about brands that you pay 20% for the name, you're talking Theta, Meridian, Halcro, SimAudio, Krell (notice the pricing of the Evo series is considerably higher than the FPB), Mark Levinson (who basically is rebadging the Lexicon 12HD, putting a screen on it and calling it a 502 and selling it for $32k!!!!). If you were paying for the Classe brand, you'd be paying over $10k for the SSP-800. It was originally to be priced at $12k.

Bryston will be selling the SP-3 at $10k and right now they are looking to not do onboard decoding as a way to save them licensing costs.

Coming from CES, I will say that attitude of the "high-end" is that they are glad they aren't at a price point to compete with the Denon's of the world. MrDoggy, I think your conversion shows that they should be.

What it ultimately comes down to is that it doesn't really matter what the facts are, consumer perception will drive the market. As long as Denon can continue to make consumers perceive that their products are better, can do more for less, and produce a similar experience, then thats what people will buy. Its the law of diminishing returns.


Don't read into this that I'm Denon bashing, because I'm not. I'm actually saying good on them for being able to deliver a product that has the ability to change consumer perception. :T

Well a lot of stuff there.....

1st I still own a Meridian 808i $16k CD player DAC Preamp in my 2nd system and right now the only competition would be the mcd/mda Mcintosh.

But I have owned many of the top processors and they don't compete with the denon AVP. Remember this is not just another denon in the lineup.

This is their STATEMENT PIECE.

I am part of the mcintosh forum and i remember one of the members of the forum took the guided tour thru the factory and saw a pile of Denon Carcasses piled up as high as he stood, and it was the inners that they were using for their mvp871. So the 871 is a redressed and upscale Denon.

And to compare a company the size of Bowers and Wilkens to the likes of D&M Holdings Denon for research, forget about it. Denon is HUGE and B&W Classe and like mice in comparison.

Lets face it, McIntosh, Classe and whichever company you want to pick thats a small specialty company theta halcro levinson all take elements built all over the world and put them in their machines in their way. Use better wiring and connectors maybe but you are paying a certain percentage for the name.

[misterdoggy]

And as I have said in the last 3 years I have owned and lived with:

1. Krell hts
2. Rotel 1098
3. Anthem D2
4. McIntosh MX119
5. McIntosh MX135
6. Meridian 861V4 ($20k)

And I have to say the AVP is the best sounding HT of the lot.......

All with top Amps Krell FPB, Levinson, Pass Labs, McIntosh 1201 (1200 watts) and more more

with 802D's and 800D's

So this comes with a lot fo experience

[misterdoggy]

Thats pretty nice in the champagne color too. Avail in Europe only I believe.

Another last note

Look at the build quality it is not like the lower denon pieces, gold connectors everything quality

This is the color I own

[sikoniko]

Well a lot of stuff there.....

1st I still own a Meridian 808i $16k CD player DAC Preamp in my 2nd system and right now the only competition would be the mcd/mda Mcintosh.

But I have owned many of the top processors and they don't compete with the denon AVP. Remember this is not just another denon in the lineup.

This is their STATEMENT PIECE.

I am part of the mcintosh forum and i remember one of the members of the forum took the guided tour thru the factory and saw a pile of Denon Carcasses piled up as high as he stood, and it was the inners that they were using for their mvp871. So the 871 is a redressed and upscale Denon.

And to compare a company the size of Bowers and Wilkens to the likes of D&M Holdings Denon for research, forget about it. Denon is HUGE and B&W Classe and like mice in comparison.

Lets face it, McIntosh, Classe and whichever company you want to pick thats a small specialty company theta halcro levinson all take elements built all over the world and put them in their machines in their way. Use better wiring and connectors maybe but you are paying a certain percentage for the name.

I'm not really trying to get into a pissing contest of who is the bigger company, or who puts what amount of money into R&D. My comment was simply that there is a wealth of experience at Classe that money can't buy.

As far as Denon making a statement piece, I went a step further and called it a game changing piece. Something that other companies that sell product 4 and 5x the price are being compared to. I based my comment on consumer perception and the number of people from both low-end systems and high-end system that are herding to in flocks.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it is better. Better is a personal choice. There is a large consumer perception that it is the best bang for the buck. The amount of features provides a high ROI, and the benefits will make it more desirable than that of a more expensive piece, like the Meridian, which if I understood your comment, in your opinion, still delivers a better experience, but doesn't deliver as much of a return in other areas, and because the price is exponentionally more, makes the Denon more appealing.

So, to you, the slight difference in audio between the Meridian and the Denon are justifiable based on a number of other features that the Denon offers and the Meridian does not.

Like I said, i'm not attacking Denon or belittling it. I'm making an observation of the impact it has made since its release - and saying its a game changer, which is a very big compliment. :T

That does not mean I would sell my Classe for one. It just means I respect what it is for other people.

[misterdoggy]

I'm not really trying to get into a pissing contest of who is the bigger company, or who puts what amount of money into R&D. My comment was simply that there is a wealth of experience at Classe that money can't buy.

As far as Denon making a statement piece, I went a step further and called it a game changing piece. Something that other companies that sell product 4 and 5x the price are being compared to. I based my comment on consumer perception and the number of people from both low-end systems and high-end system that are herding to in flocks.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it is better. Better is a personal choice. There is a large consumer perception that it is the best bang for the buck. The amount of features provides a high ROI, and the benefits will make it more desirable than that of a more expensive piece, like the Meridian, which if I understood your comment, in your opinion, still delivers a better experience, but doesn't deliver as much of a return in other areas, and because the price is exponentionally more, makes the Denon more appealing.

So, to you, the slight difference in audio between the Meridian and the Denon are justifiable based on a number of other features that the Denon offers and the Meridian does not.

Like I said, i'm not attacking Denon or belittling it. I'm making an observation of the impact it has made since its release - and saying its a game changer, which is a very big compliment. :T

That does not mean I would sell my Classe for one. It just means I respect what it is for other people.

I am not attached to any brand or defend any brand

I still have meridian, mcintosh, denon, B&w and would own happily classe or levinson or krell, halcro or anything

Im not trying to defend any company, just talking about the merits of one component.

I felt you were bashing Denon, which really is a cutting edge company

[crytklmass]

I havn't had a chance to get online, but I see this thread is still going. I chose to buy the mac over the POA (as my mentioned, my first poa center was doa, and my 2nd only lasted a week) not what I would say are good odds. what I did notice was the heat the POA put out. I could probably cook on top of the amp. It ran hot, but then again its running 10 ch. in a comparable size amp as the mac and classe. Denon is cramming alot of power in that amp. The classe and mac's I tested never got that hot, not even warm.
As far as the AVP, again alot of processing in a small package, interference, etc. My opinion is the more options you have, the more to go wrong. Just like a vehicle.
The Denon POA was nice but 2 broken models. what are the odds. even If purchased one that worked, how long would it last before it broke too. Maybe that's the biggest difference. Mac and classe and even rotel just pack 1 huge power supply to run (ie. mc 501, rmb1090, classe cam400) vs denon 10ch. in the same size cabinet. As far as the AVP, I don't know, I'm afraid of the same outcome...too many options in 1 cabinet vs. classe ssp800 and mac's new mx150. my opinion again, are you really going to use ALL those options? after all, listening to a cd in 2 ch. is just that, and watching a movie, well you can only choose 1 ht setting, either dd, dts, etc and it depends on what the movie is recorded in. maybe its bragging rights to say "look at how many options my amp has compared to yours". I know when I watch a movie, I view it in 1 setting, ie. dts. I don't skip through 10 diff. settings while watching a movie. I think there are just too many circuits and too much to go wrong throughout time.
keep it simple. I havn't purchased my processor yet and was considering the denon avp, but I think its best to keep all units the same, so i'll buy the mx136 or mx150.
time will tell if the denon seperates are worth it or not. For those that purchased them, keep us updated.

[wettou]

As far as the AVP, again alot of processing in a small package, interference, etc. As far as the AVP, I don't know, I'm afraid of the same outcome...too many options in 1 cabinet vs. classe ssp800 and mac's new mx150. my opinion again, are you really going to use ALL those options? after all, listening to a cd in 2 ch. is just that, and watching a movie, well you can only choose 1 ht setting, either dd, dts, etc and it depends on what the movie is recorded in. maybe its bragging rights to say "look at how many options my amp has compared to yours". I know when I watch a movie, I view it in 1 setting, ie. dts. I think there are just too many circuits and too much to go wrong throughout time.

Time will tell if the denon separates are worth it or not. For those that purchased them, keep us updated.

I could not agree more keep it simple, Denon 10 channel amps vs Classé 5 channel amps CA-5200. I bought the Classé and am very happy, in addition Classé has outstanding customer service. God luck getting customer service from Denon :cry:

My name is on the list to get the upgraded SSP-800, I heard Dolby IIz really cool for action movies hopefully it will be incorporated

[misterdoggy]

I havn't had a chance to get online, but I see this thread is still going. I chose to buy the mac over the POA (as my mentioned, my first poa center was doa, and my 2nd only lasted a week) not what I would say are good odds. what I did notice was the heat the POA put out. I could probably cook on top of the amp. It ran hot, but then again its running 10 ch. in a comparable size amp as the mac and classe. Denon is cramming alot of power in that amp. The classe and mac's I tested never got that hot, not even warm.
As far as the AVP, again alot of processing in a small package, interference, etc. My opinion is the more options you have, the more to go wrong. Just like a vehicle.
The Denon POA was nice but 2 broken models. what are the odds. even If purchased one that worked, how long would it last before it broke too. Maybe that's the biggest difference. Mac and classe and even rotel just pack 1 huge power supply to run (ie. mc 501, rmb1090, classe cam400) vs denon 10ch. in the same size cabinet. As far as the AVP, I don't know, I'm afraid of the same outcome...too many options in 1 cabinet vs. classe ssp800 and mac's new mx150. my opinion again, are you really going to use ALL those options? after all, listening to a cd in 2 ch. is just that, and watching a movie, well you can only choose 1 ht setting, either dd, dts, etc and it depends on what the movie is recorded in. maybe its bragging rights to say "look at how many options my amp has compared to yours". I know when I watch a movie, I view it in 1 setting, ie. dts. I don't skip through 10 diff. settings while watching a movie. I think there are just too many circuits and too much to go wrong throughout time.
keep it simple. I havn't purchased my processor yet and was considering the denon avp, but I think its best to keep all units the same, so i'll buy the mx136 or mx150.
time will tell if the denon seperates are worth it or not. For those that purchased them, keep us updated.

I can try to share my experience with the MX series. Out of all the processors the mx was the worst i've owned. as i said my wife and i kept asking 'what did he say' caus we really couldn't hear clearly. Meridian 861 was outstanding but no video.

So far the avp has performed outstandingly. you have the options, but i just use the ones i need.

it has some great stuff not offered on many other processors (and I've tested a bunch) like adjusting gain on different digital sources, which is really a bother when switching satellites. The Audyssey room correction in and out is amazing and I've had 2 other of the best processors with room correction Anthem D2 and Meridian 861 and The AVP is every bit as good. IN fact the difference of the room correction in and out is more noticeable on the avp than the other 2.

Real ease of use, its been dependable.

I can understand having 2 lemons in a row and fully understand how you could feel. Might make my experience different, but for me it runs great does everything except flip pancakes

Yeah there is the discussion of one power supply, but the theory was to separate the power supplies and isolating them from ech other. Guess there a pluses and minuses to both.

I really wanted the MX to be great as I hve ALL McIntosh Amps and love the look, but it was the worst. No reason for the mx150 to be different imho. As a 2 channel preamp, it really sucked too.

Only the Meridian 861V4 was an equally good preamp and I a/b'd it against a tube McIntosh C2200 and in my opinion was a draw. So that says a lot for a processor. But the Meridian lists for $20k new and doesn't support hdmi yet no video processor.

So for me that is, the best one out there (without having compared the classe) was the AVP.

[Briz vegas]

Home theatre is still very much the realm of the big mass market brands it would seem. It has many of the attributes of the computer industry which changes products on a regular basis. It measures performance in number of channels and the latest connectivity. It is very different to traditional hifi virtues of keeping things simple and using the best quality parts. I guess we should not be surprised if mac uses Denon parts, although the waste described above is a bit of a worry. Maybe Mac should have a little Denon inside label just as computers have Intel logos.

This is the case with CD players as well, small companies canabalise and tweek others players as they are unable to do their own economically. I don't care for the concept of paying for a specialised product when the insides are basically ripped from a cheaper product. I feel this is misleading your customers. Better to be up front about it and give the customer value for money by adding your own analogue output stages etc, after all this is where the magic and musicality often lies. That is why I disagree with the suggestion of using a processor to play back CD. A good CD player will surpass the quality of a home theatre oriented product in my experience.

I nicked this photo from Positive Feedback as I did not want to open up my amp, but I am glad to see that my CJ amp is pretty much all CJ, right down to what appears to the individual capacitors etc. KISS, good design and good quality parts - and it shows in the sound. I believe their CD players do not share such a pure heritage, although I believe they do their own analogue stages. CJ are a pretty small company compared to many others so I am personally amazed that they can build so much of their amps from scratch, but then again that is their specialty.

[misterdoggy]

Home theatre is still very much the realm of the big mass market brands it would seem. It has many of the attributes of the computer industry which changes products on a regular basis. It measures performance in number of channels and the latest connectivity. It is very different to traditional hifi virtues of keeping things simple and using the best quality parts. I guess we should not be surprised if mac uses Denon parts, although the waste described above is a bit of a worry. Maybe Mac should have a little Denon inside label just as computers have Intel logos.

This is the case with CD players as well, small companies canabalise and tweek others players as they are unable to do their own economically. I don't care for the concept of paying for a specialised product when the insides are basically ripped from a cheaper product. I feel this is misleading your customers. Better to be up front about it and give the customer value for money by adding your own analogue output stages etc, after all this is where the majic and musicallity often lies. That is why I disagree with the suggestion of using a processor to play back CD. A good CD player will surpass the quality of a home theatre oriented product in my experience.

I nicked this photo from Positive Feedback as I did not want to open up my amp, but I am glad to see that my CJ amp is pretty much all CJ, right down to what appears to the individual capacitors etc. KISS, good design and good quality parts - and it shows in the sound. I believe their CD players do not share such a pure heritage, although I believe they do their own analogue stages. CJ are a pretty small company compared to many others so I am personally amazed that they can build so much of their amps from scratch, but then a again that is their specialty.

Briz,

McIntosh did use the innards, but then they personalize afterwards with their own improvements and move things around. NO SMALLCOMPANY MAKES LASERS AND TRANSPORTS. Even all the cards on the unit you show, if you tracked back, I would bet you would find come from different sources.

For instance, Mercedes in Germany, you would think its made at the mercedes factory, but the fenders are made at some small factory, the lights somewhere else, everything is made at smaller factories all over the place in Germany and outside then put together in one place. Mercedes Factory = imaginary. I even have a guy down the road that makes the plastic wire clippings for mercedes here in france.

Its the same with Audio, computer boards are put together all over the place and mostly in the Orient.

[alebonau]

Home theatre is still very much the realm of the big mass market brands it would seem. It has many of the attributes of the computer industry which changes products on a regular basis. It measures performance in number of channels and the latest connectivity. It is very different to traditional hifi virtues of keeping things simple and using the best quality parts. I guess we should not be surprised if mac uses Denon parts, although the waste described above is a bit of a worry. Maybe Mac should have a little Denon inside label just as computers have Intel logos.

This is the case with CD players as well, small companies canabalise and tweek others players as they are unable to do their own economically. I don't care for the concept of paying for a specialised product when the insides are basically ripped from a cheaper product. I feel this is misleading your customers. Better to be up front about it and give the customer value for money by adding your own analogue output stages etc, after all this is where the magic and musicality often lies. That is why I disagree with the suggestion of using a processor to play back CD. A good CD player will surpass the quality of a home theatre oriented product in my experience.

I nicked this photo from Positive Feedback as I did not want to open up my amp, but I am glad to see that my CJ amp is pretty much all CJ, right down to what appears to the individual capacitors etc. KISS, good design and good quality parts - and it shows in the sound. I believe their CD players do not share such a pure heritage, although I believe they do their own analogue stages. CJ are a pretty small company compared to many others so I am personally amazed that they can build so much of their amps from scratch, but then again that is their specialty.

looks a bit like innards of my audio research phono pre. I'm sure it has the same ole valve radio smell to it too briz when its up and going

some brands do take care that way. eg my focals they brand them as "made in focal" rather than made in france because they make every part of the speaker there was a nice article with JM the founder and why he said they make the whole speaker themselves so can control every aspect of their design and manufacture.

reality though for most makers they dont really have the inhouse expertise to do all themselves or it makes more economic sense to outsource some parts of it. classe themselves as big as the "B&W group" is still have the boards etc made by someone else.

not surpised really some sharing of the mac stuff with denon, they are jsut utlising inhouse expertise and resources to their advantage and why not. mac still makes some lovely stuff that might have long since gone by the way side otherwise ...

as far as the denon some comfort in that there stuff is still hand made by them in japan. and looking inside great to see decent quality discrete components, good quality power supplies, dacs, dsp and analog stages etc. the result it acheives more a result of its good honest engineering and design I think

[Dmantis]

Over the last few years Denon has been a QC problem. I don't get how a great company like Denon can have such high QC issues. I see them all the time broken. It's depressing to a point. many years ago Denon was the top dog for there price point and they where rock solid. I don't get where they made a wrong turn.

The seperates look impressive but I can't get over the defective avr5308's I have seen not mention the stacks of bad cd and dvd players. It's all the time. At least 2 to 3 a week come in broken. It's to the point where long time Denon carriers are going to blow Denon out. If you can't make products that work then there is no reason to carry them. There are many other products out there that don't have as many QC problems.

It's a shame but thats the truth.

[Aussie Geoff]

Move to Home Theatre Area soon :-)

Hi :-)

An interesting thread, and one which I see people have had to work hard to control their enthusiasm or avoid moving into letting things get personal. So congratulations for that.

In a day or two I am going to move this to the Home Theatre forum area as really is is now far from B&W related... Even though the B&W Owners have made a fantastic contrubution to the thread etc... (Oh and Iloooovvveee my Denon AVP)

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

Hi :-)

An interesting thread, and one which I see people have had to work hard to control their enthusiasm or avoid moving into letting things get personal. So congratulations for that.

In a day or two I am going to move this to the Home Theatre forum area as really is is now far from B&W related... Even though the B&W Owners have made a fantastic contrubution to the thread etc... (Oh and Iloooovvveee my Denon AVP)

Geoff

Hey Geoff,

Nice to see that you picked yourself up an AVP too. ....

confirms I have good taste

What are you powering the system with ??

best
bruce

[sikoniko]

I believe the number of options in the "high-end" is what makes the Denon a "game-changer". I suppose that trophy should go to the Anthem, since it was first, but I don't think it had the impact that the Denon has had.

As more companies get into the HDMI world, I think things will level out again. There is still room for competition, and not everyone will, or should chose the Denon, Anthem, Mc, Classe, etc. It will come back to personal choice.

As it stands right now, it seems there is a clear line in the sand and you're either for brand A or against brand A. I don't think it should be that way. I look forward to the day of people respecting others choices, and not having to feel defensive about the choice he/she made.

We each can have our own personal choice and preference, enjoy the same hobby, and respect that others have different opinions and experiences.

In my experience, people that like the Denon totally belittle people who like the Classe, so people who like the classe get defensive and reciprocate. I am guilty of this. I've seen it time and time again where people who have the Denon product come into the Classe threads and say how superior the Denon is to the Classe. I've also seen the Denon people gang up against someone who likes something different. Its unnecessary and disrespectful to the hobby.

I've backed off. And thats why I say that the Denon is good piece. I have nothing against it, or anyone who chooses to buy it. For me, I'm happy with the Classe. Respect my choice and I will respect yours. Come in my house (Classe threads) and trash talk it, I'll get upset.

These threads where people want to compare the Denon vs classe or anything else usually get derailed. I'm surprised this one has lasted as long as it has. I really think its pointless as I don't really see any true head-to-head discussion. They both have their place and one is not necessarily better than the other. Its going to come down to what the buyer is looking for in a processor.

As far as the AVP, again alot of processing in a small package, interference, etc. My opinion is the more options you have, the more to go wrong. Just like a vehicle.

This is worthy of discussion, but I'm afraid you will not get an objective discussion from it. There will be those who like it that way, those who don't and those who don't care whats inside, as long as it sounds good.

[misterdoggy]

I believe the number of options in the "high-end" is what makes the Denon a "game-changer". I suppose that trophy should go to the Anthem, since it was first, but I don't think it had the impact that the Denon has had.

Sikoniko

You are right there, Anthem was the first. I immediately went out and bought the Anthem D2. It was full of problems from the word GO. It didn't recognize audio over hdmi, it didn't recognize all the digital signals and downloading was problematic as it did not work.

I kept it 2 weeks and had to give up in frustration and relent and send it packing. I was so stressed that the day it left, I was finally relieved and happy as I was at wits end.

However, completely opposite experience with the Denon, not only recognized everything complicated I threw at it, it just worked period. And offered even more options than the Anthem. With Anthem I was in the Anthem forum all day long trying to get tips, and found myself with a myriad of other D2 users with only problems that they were going to address and fix.

end result = Good idea that in practicality didn't work

We each can have our own personal choice and preference, enjoy the same hobby, and respect that others have different opinions and experiences.

In my experience, people that like the Denon totally belittle people who like the Classe, so people who like the classe get defensive and reciprocate.


These threads where people want to compare the Denon vs classe or anything else usually get derailed.

I respect your right to choose any thing that you want. Actually it is I who is defensive, because I understand only too well owning meridian and mcintosh products that one can "look down their nose" at Denon like it is not in the plaing level of Classe, Meridian, McIntosh, levinson etc, but all I want to say to those who feel that way, these "Statement" pieces by Denon are real competitor's in the high end.

When you consider that the AVP-POA is $15,000 list, it is no longer for the "average" consumer.

So no one is kicking classe by any means, but Denon is owed a nod for work well done. ;x(

[sikoniko]

I respect your right to choose any thing that you want. Actually it is I who is defensive, because I understand only too well owning meridian and mcintosh products that one can "look down their nose" at Denon like it is not in the plaing level of Classe, Meridian, McIntosh, levinson etc, but all I want to say to those who feel that way, these "Statement" pieces by Denon are real competitor's in the high end.

When you consider that the AVP-POA is $15,000 list, it is no longer for the "average" consumer.

I completely understand and agree. I was in the camp that Denon can't deliver. I've still never heard it. I was very eager to give it a go at CES. Unfortunately, they were hiding out at the Hilton, and we never made it there. For the last six months, I've been guilty of being defensive of Classe and presenting my own bias. At this point, I just don't care anymore.

I know what my classe can do, and I'm very happy about it. If I could, I'd invite the whole forum over to enjoy my room (and the classe)! I'd bet anyone with the Denon would do the same. :T I don't personally feel that I am missing anything. Admittedly, I'd like to play with an AutoEQ, but, again, I don't feel like I'm missing something without it either.

Moving forward, all anyone can say is, they are both excellent pre/pro's. The Denon offers some features that the Classe doesn't, but that doesn't make the classe bad.

So no one is kicking classe by any means, but Denon is owed a nod for work well done. ;x(

And I hope that I have communicated that I respect the Denon.

We have managed to keep this thread civil, but I can tell you from experience, that very few times have the been that way in the past. :E

[misterdoggy]

We have managed to keep this thread civil, but I can tell you from experience, that very few times have the been that way in the past. :E

I don't care about repsect for Denon, only that we respect each other :T

Each of us made decisions on the things we own, but they are only a reflection on our choices, not who we are as people, and our choices can be good or bad, but we would like to think that our choices are the best ones, after all , We made them.

With all the differences at the top of the Game, it really only comes down to a difference in choice. They are all good, and more likely the Room has more influence than anything else.

In another forum, someone wrote wisely "Your Room is a Speaker" and we could all probably increase the listening quality by addressing the ract that the speakers you choose are only part of the interior speaker of the room

[Orb]

crytklmass,
I think your decision may be more complex than going for the McIntosh pro.
Personally in most cases weighing up whether to stay with same manufacturer is not the same situation as evaluating matching preamp with amp.

If wanting to go for matching, then for now the Classe looks near the top of the pile IMO.
But if you enjoy a certain power amp from a different manufacturer, this may require the use of a different processor such as the Denon.
While you experienced problems with the Denon amp, I think you will find the processor of theirs will be better.
But only you can decide if the McIntosh processor does not suite you.

Cheers
Orb

[audioqueso]

We have managed to keep this thread civil, but I can tell you from experience, that very few times have the been that way in the past. :E

A little off topic... but here??? That is probably the main reason why I like this forum so much. Everyone can laugh, act, and talk like boys, but still stay mature. Sure, there have been a few instances, but for the past few years that I've been around HTGuide, I can count the number of times that I have seen any comfrontations. This is a great board.

But something interesting you posted about Denon vs Classe...
...does it matter???
It's like someone who has a Dodge Viper vs Landrover vs Lotus. All different avenues to the same thing: fun and enjoyment. One is by off-trail, one is by pure speed, and the other by it's nimbleness. But they're all the goals of someone's perfect enjoyment of a car. No difference in high-end audio. Sure, there are 'bragging rights' in the audio world, but every single one of us is here for one reason, quest for our perfect audio enjoyment.

[crytklmass]

Another thing to consider, at least for me and choosing my pre-pro is that I watch alot of movies vs. music. and my choice for movies is everything from cars, to star wars, to westerns. I watch all genre. I expect my system to complete whatever I am watching and make it sound as real as possible. If Im in the middle of "matrix" or "black hawk down" firefight, I want the best possible sound I can achieve. Same with my 2ch. I don't listen to jazz or classical, well some, but I am more into heavy metal, rock, rap, everything from ac/dc to yanni. It's difficult to find speakers, amps, and a pre-pro that can do and play everything with realistic sound reproduction.
My friend has 2 seperate system. 1 is his audio room and the other his video room. His audio room consists of $40,000 Martin Logan electrostat with Mac amps. He only listens to classical, ill admit they sound good, but I put my Korn cd in. It sounds like CRAP. not worth a penny to me, but it works for him.
Im not saying 1 manufacturer is better than another, it depends on what you hear when the sound or movie is reproduced. Similar tastes will agree on similar setups. Im still deciding on my pre-pro. I may buy the Denon AVP processor or the classe 800 or wait for the mac mx150. Since the SSP800 is new im going to read the articles and opinions from others. How many problems are they having? I was reading a Denon AVP-POA thread with some frustrations back and forth. Just like a new model car, need to work the bugs out. as long as its not as painless as upgading windows xp to vista..lol

[wettou]

In another forum, someone wrote wisely "Your Room is a Speaker" and we could all probably increase the listening quality by addressing the ract that the speakers you choose are only part of the interior speaker of the room

I could not agree more why is it that recording studios spend so much money on having engineered rooms.

The thing I will say abot Classé is they have outstanding customers service:T Denon in the US is an other story :cry:

I had a Denon receiver about 10 years ago and only had problems to the point that after three time I went to the dealer and got my money back and bought a Yamaha it still works without a glitch

[crytklmass]

Thats kind of wheat keeps me puzzled. When building an audi/video powerhouse that will meet all or your crtyteria. So we spend housrs listening to speakers and the order doestnt mattere. Lets assume you purchase the B&W 802d-for front speakers, then buy a center HTM2D, Then we'll buy some rears. SSMS, we'll leave the sub out for not.
Next we need to by amps so, some of us buy mcintosh amp, other claasse, others, Rotel, meridian, Marantz, Denon. Lots to choos from. After buying our amps we come home and set everything up....... uh - oh we forgot to buy our pre-processor.
De we buy our matching system pre-pro or do we venture out and mix our units, with different components. some thought lexicon was the granddaddy. A true pr-pro is dead unit we plug our component and speaker into it. Hopefully it will be easy to use and sound bad a$$. After all this is where all the sound come from-get processed and sent to our mind blowing amps and heard through our speakers. we mix match cd/dvd/ mp3/ players all the time. Even blu ray players are not matching components.
I think some manufactures should just stick with 2 ch. while others can spend there money on ht only. then we just have to match them together and were in business. (let me guess Denon 3800bdcdi)lol and cheaper pre-amp. let your components do the processing instead of your pre-pro, right? so which is the best top 5 matches. go ahead a list your vote:
1. Mcintosh Mx 150/Mx136
2. Classe SSP 600/800
3. Rotel 1968/1069
1. Krell hts
2. Rotel 1098
3. Anthem D2
4. Meridian 861V4
Am I missing anything?

[sikoniko]

A little off topic... but here??? That is probably the main reason why I like this forum so much. Everyone can laugh, act, and talk like boys, but still stay mature. Sure, there have been a few instances, but for the past few years that I've been around HTGuide, I can count the number of times that I have seen any comfrontations. This is a great board.

HTGuide is better than others but it does happen.

[misterdoggy]

I want my Mommy ...

[crytklmass]

WOW, that's funny... I don't remember writing that post (3rd up) I took an ambien to help me sleep but was on the computer for a little while. Apparently I fell asleep while I was writing it......weird. Now I can take an ambien and use my puter..lol

[Orb]

WOW, that's funny... I don't remember writing that post (3rd up) I took an ambien to help me sleep but was on the computer for a little while. Apparently I fell asleep while I was writing it......weird. Now I can take an ambien and use my puter..lol

Hehe, reminds me of someone I knew years ago who had two contract jobs in same company (he was working well so they did not mind).
By day was network engineer and then about an hour later would start the evening shift on the helpdesk.
Works out he slept 3 hours a day, and then serious sleeping at weekends.
But he was earning a lot of money I guess.

Have a good week all.
Cheers
Orb