Denon vs. classe & rotel. My opinion

[crytklmass]

I currently have B&W802d's for fronts, HTM2d for center and SCM1's for rears. I recently owned the Rotel 1090, for fronts, Rotel 1095 for center and rears. After selling my Rotel, my local rep tried talking me into classe ssp800 and classe 400mono and classe 5200 for my remaining speaker. I found a Denon dealer selling the POA-A1HDCI for $4500.00 and the AVP-A1HDCI for $5,400.00 for a total of $9900. I am waiting for the new Denon DVD-A1UD (releasing in january. Probably around $3000.00. Anyways, purchasing the classe option would cost me $18,000+ just for ssp and amps, no cd/dvd player.
I bridged the Denon POA together for my fronts and center- each have 300watts, and 150watts to my rear SCM1's. that leaves me with 2 150watt channels remaining, maybe for B&W 805s. My sub is B&W 855.
Anyways, I Never thought I would say this but the DENON blew away my Rotel 1090 (380watts x2) and sounded cleaner and had more power than the classe 200wattsx2. Either way I saved about $8000.00 and I feel I have a better sounding sytem with unlimited options. When turned up the volume loud, very loud, my ears don't hurt and I dont feel blown away. more of a warm sound. For some people, that just have to pay for the name, in my opinion i don't care what the price is, I buy what sounds best to me. I dont even look at the price. Look out classe and rotel, this amp wins. however, krell did sound better, but then again 2 amps cost $8000 alone. If anyone else has tried the Denon's with the B&W's let's exchange emails. Denon may not be considered in the same class as Rotel and Classe, but head to head, I feel the Denon won and saved me alot of money. oh ya, know I only have 2 amps instead of 3or 4 which allows me more room for and a smaller rack.

[btf1980]

Denon may not be considered in the same class as Rotel and Classe, but head to head, I feel the Denon won and saved me alot of money.

I am a Rotel owner, and there is nothing in Rotel's line up that can be compared to the Denon AVP/POA combo. Denon beats Rotel decisively, though i'm not so sure they are the same target audience. Rotel's latest prepro is $2,199 list, and the AVP is $7,500 list.

I won't delve into a Denon and Classe comparison, that seems to be a touchy subject for some. :B

[crytklmass]

Some people just pay for the name, I pay for what I hear, Price only becomes an issue when it gets to around $20,000. I wasn't going to purchase the 802's until I heard them with krell amps. it was rough, but I had to buy those. My friend who is a rotel and classe freak seen my Denon and asked if I was sick. He asked why would I sell my rotel amps for Denon, denon is beneath them, after hearing them, he changed his mind. he brought over his classe ca 5200, we compared them, he paid $9000. I only paid $4500.00. there are cheaper amps, you just have to find them. The AVR will cost me $5200.00. that's only $9600.00 for both, he paid close to that for 1 classe amp, and he ordered the ssp800 for $8,000. his total $17,000.00 for a ssp and 5 channel amp. I paid half, the AVR has more options and I have a 10ch amp. but mines only a "denon" low grade. while his classe is a ferrari, until we compared them against my speakers. now he wants to return his stuff. an save the money.

[wettou]

Some people just pay for the name, I pay for what I hear, Price only becomes an issue when it gets to around $20,000. I wasn't going to purchase the 802's until I heard them with krell amps. it was rough, but I had to buy those. My friend who is a rotel and classe freak seen my Denon and asked if I was sick. He asked why would I sell my rotel amps for Denon, denon is beneath them, after hearing them, he changed his mind. he brought over his classe ca 5200, we compared them, he paid $9000. I only paid $4500.00. there are cheaper amps, you just have to find them. The AVR will cost me $5200.00. that's only $9600.00 for both, he paid close to that for 1 classe amp, and he ordered the ssp800 for $8,000. his total $17,000.00 for a ssp and 5 channel amp. I paid half, the AVR has more options and I have a 10ch amp. but mines only a "denon" low grade. while his classe is a ferrari, until we compared them against my speakers. now he wants to return his stuff. an save the money.

Where did you get your Denon for $5200?

[crytklmass]

Some people just pay for the name, I pay for what I hear, Price only becomes an issue when it gets to around $20,000. I wasn't going to purchase the 802's until I heard them with krell amps. it was rough, but I had to buy those. My friend who is a rotel and classe freak seen my Denon and asked if I was sick. He asked why would I sell my rotel amps for Denon, denon is beneath them, after hearing them, he changed his mind. he brought over his classe ca 5200, we compared them, he paid $9000. I only paid $4500.00. there are cheaper amps, you just have to find them. The AVR will cost me $5200.00. that's only $9600.00 for both, he paid close to that for 1 classe amp, and he ordered the ssp800 for $8,000. his total $17,000.00 for a ssp and 5 channel amp. I paid half, the AVR has more options and I have a 10ch amp. but mines only a "denon" low grade. while his classe is a ferrari, until we compared them against my speakers. now he wants to return his stuff. an save the money.

first I went to audiogon.com there just like ebay, I also went to ebay to find new in box Denon's and went from there. there's are more than 1 company selling Denon units at different prices. the most common price was 5400.00 from custom performance, i purchased mine from a different dealer, the prices are diff. between the avp and the poa. I found a dealer selling it for $4500.00 and asked if he would match the price, which he did. And he also knows ill be buying more from him in the future because he treated me right, and priced matched them. saving me $550.00. browse the web and you will find diff. prices. ebay sells pages of them, just be careful about the refurbished companies. even though, as long as the warranty is the same, who cares.

[Race Car Driver]

A review like this is nice to see, I can get a smoking price on that combo through work and have been considering it. After having a few seperate amps (and still wanting a Krell setup) part of me still likes having a "simple" combo such as this.

Maybe we will see what the future brings Then part of me wants a "cheap" 140 watt receiver just to save a bunch of cash.

Any pics of your setup with the new gear?

Thanks again!

[Miyuki]

I currently have B&W802d's for fronts, HTM2d for center and SCM1's for rears. I recently owned the Rotel 1090, for fronts, Rotel 1095 for center and rears. After selling my Rotel, my local rep tried talking me into classe ssp800 and classe 400mono and classe 5200 for my remaining speaker. I found a Denon dealer selling the POA-A1HDCI for $4500.00 and the AVP-A1HDCI for $5,400.00 for a total of $9900. I am waiting for the new Denon DVD-A1UD (releasing in january. Probably around $3000.00. Anyways, purchasing the classe option would cost me $18,000+ just for ssp and amps, no cd/dvd player.
I bridged the Denon POA together for my fronts and center- each have 300watts, and 150watts to my rear SCM1's. that leaves me with 2 150watt channels remaining, maybe for B&W 805s. My sub is B&W 855.
Anyways, I Never thought I would say this but the DENON blew away my Rotel 1090 (380watts x2) and sounded cleaner and had more power than the classe 200wattsx2. Either way I saved about $8000.00 and I feel I have a better sounding sytem with unlimited options. When turned up the volume loud, very loud, my ears don't hurt and I dont feel blown away. more of a warm sound. For some people, that just have to pay for the name, in my opinion i don't care what the price is, I buy what sounds best to me. I dont even look at the price. Look out classe and rotel, this amp wins. however, krell did sound better, but then again 2 amps cost $8000 alone. If anyone else has tried the Denon's with the B&W's let's exchange emails. Denon may not be considered in the same class as Rotel and Classe, but head to head, I feel the Denon won and saved me alot of money. oh ya, know I only have 2 amps instead of 3or 4 which allows me more room for and a smaller rack.

Hi crytklmass,

I have the AVP/POA combo bridged to output 300w @8ohm to all five channels: Fronts: 803Ds ,Center: HTM2D and Rears: N803s. The Denon is perfect for my needs and its price/performance ratio is a greet deal better than any other separates. Since the dealer is a Classe rep in Japan I listened to both Classe and Denon. Classe looks better, but when it came down to my listening preferences Denon won the game.

DVD-A1UD is out here in Tokyo, but it is not att all worth its price.

Cheers

[style]

Denon works in HT for many years.
I have ssp ca5200, I listened to the Denon.
Personally I find the very best classe even though the Denon is not bad ...
is a personal choice .... you talk of Krell ... I had Krell testing for 2 weeks ... NO thanks! Sound too rough, too ???... Rotel better!

Everything depends of your room,... and many other factors ....
Is not simply decide there is a lot of ampli that give you very good result ...

The combo Marantz AV8003 & MM8003 certainly sounds good.
(Denon = marantz? family company D&M holding is the same, like in the Mcintosh player: the set software is the same like Denon!!)

your friends have another idea/opinion...
not all have the same tastes, ideas, opinions .... fortunately!


wow, for the rack a AVC&POE in not smaller vs. ssp&CA5200!!
Is not how much watt but too the watt quality!! I have had a Rotel D ice-class 5x500watt...but the 200watt from Classe are very different!!!
I have sold a MCintosh Mc205 to buy the Ca5200....and the Mc was too very good in sound-> if you like hot sound (like tube)...

Style

[Jmac]

Congratulations on the Denon...no doubt superb kit indeed. It's sad that in the brave new world of almost totally subjective reviewing as regards Hifi kit, personal experiences that are mostly non-transferable to another individual, are still held up as being relevant, in some kind of best, better, and 'ultimate' shoot-out as regards kit in the form of CD players and amps.

In my experience, once a level of commensurate quality has been reached as regards parts and implementation, the differences in sound between amplifiers when auditioned using a level playing field such as carefully (measured) volume levels when A/B'ing, and preferably blind to remove expectation bias, become whilst not non-existent, certainly vanishingly small in the majority of cases; assuming again amplifiers of similar design and specs, driving within their limits into a suitable load.

I'm not saying that all amps sound exactly the same, but rather that with a commensurate level of quality and a level playing field as regards audition, the results will be one of small differences, rather than better or worse per se, and importantly have no real relevance to brand names, and exotic prices.

I used to own high-end Naim electronics for critical 2 channel listening; in adding to that system for HT capabilities I 'stumbled' upon Sony ES; as a result after some time doing anally obsessive A/B's and long term listening as well, the Naim was all sold as the ES (speaking as a trained classical musician) was clearly, albeit subtly better - however it did multi-channel as well as critical two channel, and for many thousands less than what the Naim kit cost.

Denon has an excellent reputation amongst those who are grounded in sound, not necessarily badges. That is not to say Classe, Krell, or other so called high kit is bad, far from it, however the specialist assembler will never have the scale of manufacturing that a 'major' such as Denon does, and consequently you will pay a lot more for the 'privilege' of owning such kit. Nothing wrong with that, but don't assume the pricing difference is all about sound quality - it's more to do with exclusivity and owning the 'right' brand, as I discovered from my own experience with high-end Naim.

Best

Jon

[sikoniko]

I currently have B&W802d's for fronts, HTM2d for center and SCM1's for rears. I recently owned the Rotel 1090, for fronts, Rotel 1095 for center and rears. After selling my Rotel, my local rep tried talking me into classe ssp800 and classe 400mono and classe 5200 for my remaining speaker. I found a Denon dealer selling the POA-A1HDCI for $4500.00 and the AVP-A1HDCI for $5,400.00 for a total of $9900. I am waiting for the new Denon DVD-A1UD (releasing in january. Probably around $3000.00. Anyways, purchasing the classe option would cost me $18,000+ just for ssp and amps, no cd/dvd player.
I bridged the Denon POA together for my fronts and center- each have 300watts, and 150watts to my rear SCM1's. that leaves me with 2 150watt channels remaining, maybe for B&W 805s. My sub is B&W 855.
Anyways, I Never thought I would say this but the DENON blew away my Rotel 1090 (380watts x2) and sounded cleaner and had more power than the classe 200wattsx2. Either way I saved about $8000.00 and I feel I have a better sounding sytem with unlimited options. When turned up the volume loud, very loud, my ears don't hurt and I dont feel blown away. more of a warm sound. For some people, that just have to pay for the name, in my opinion i don't care what the price is, I buy what sounds best to me. I dont even look at the price. Look out classe and rotel, this amp wins. however, krell did sound better, but then again 2 amps cost $8000 alone. If anyone else has tried the Denon's with the B&W's let's exchange emails. Denon may not be considered in the same class as Rotel and Classe, but head to head, I feel the Denon won and saved me alot of money. oh ya, know I only have 2 amps instead of 3or 4 which allows me more room for and a smaller rack.

Did you compare the Denon to the SSP-800 by listening to them, or just by sticker price? This isn't a review as much as it is a high-five to the denon consumer and a bash on the people who do like the classe piece (or any setup more expensive than the Denon) - based solely on price. Though you try and justify it to yourself and us here by waiving your money around. From a value proposition, the Denon will win. Its a swiss army knife and its more economical than the Classe piece. I don't argue that. Why not compare the Classe to the SimAudio, Krell, Meridian or $32k Mark Levinson when it comes to value? Thats who Classe targetted for competition.

Audio follows the 80-20 rule. You pay 20% for the first 80% of return and the next 80% for the final 20% on return. You can buy used 802Ns for almost 1/3 the price of msrp on new 802D's. Why didnt you cut corners there as well?

I'm glad you're happy with your Denon. :T At the end of the day, you are the one that needs to be satisfied with your decision, but you shouldn't generalize and make statements which come across very arrogant to someone who chose to take another path. I can generalize too. What I find interesting about people who buy the Denon product is they are the most vocal to be judgemental of other peoples systems and think they are more right than others.

Our experiences, tastes and opinions are very subjective. There is no wrong answer when it comes to building a system for ourselves. At the end of the day, it is the individual who has to decide if the investment was worth it - not a group of people on the internet.

As far as your amp comparison, while they very rarely are, amps are supposed to be neutral, and should not make as much of a difference in signal as a pre/pro would. As long as the amp is capable of driving the speaker, differences would come down to personal taste and synergy in the system.

When I sit down to listen to my system, I don't think "its a classe, or denon, or mcintosh pre powered by complimentary amps driving my b&w speakers." I think... its so relaxing to listen to my system... I feel like listening to The Doors right now and riding the snake on to the other side because my system is believable for me in doing that.

I never can understand why we can't just commune together to say, "I love listening to music and watching movies at the highest quality" while understanding that there are multiple paths to get to that place and each takes his/her own journey to get there - and appreciating the differences. It seems everyone is about their way being the right way...

[sikoniko]

Denon has an excellent reputation amongst those who are grounded in sound, not necessarily badges. That is not to say Classe, Krell, or other so called high kit is bad, far from it, however the specialist assembler will never have the scale of manufacturing that a 'major' such as Denon does, and consequently you will pay a lot more for the 'privilege' of owning such kit. Nothing wrong with that, but don't assume the pricing difference is all about sound quality - it's more to do with exclusivity and owning the 'right' brand, as I discovered from my own experience with high-end Naim.

Best

Jon

Just because you don't find value in other products doesn't mean that others don't. you're stereotyping everyone else based on your own experience... It doesn't mean everyone shares that opinion... or should. :roll:

[Race Car Driver]

I knew this was coming, I am here for what is sure to be a drawn out discussion.

[beden1]

I listened to the Denon AVP and the new Marantz processor. They sounded very good, as does my Pioneer Elite 82TXS with outboard power by comparison. I bought my Pioneer Elite about 3 years ago for just under $1,000. So maybe, the Pioneer Elite is a much better value than the Denon or Marantz?

But, my Pioneer Elite receiver is now worth about $350 used since they have come out with new models at least every year since. This is typical of the Japanese manufacturers, as they seem to have followed in the same footsteps as the computer manufacturers. Your prized electronics purchase is worth about half it's value as soon as you take it out of the store.

The boasting of getting the $7,500 Denon AVP for $5,400 also proves the point of their products' lack of market value. Although Denon had been trying to control the pricing of their AVP, your statement of getting this large of a discount shows they may be losing their battle, again. But, you may have gotten your price from a gray market dealer, so your warranty is void. Good luck getting it fixed when and if needed.

Denon and Marantz have been recently trying to re-create their public image of quality since their products had become mere stacks of boxes on discounter's marked-down close-out shelves for years. Like the computer manufacturers, all they had created were commodities, and not prized audio components/instruments that one will be satified with their purchase for many years. Their heavily discounted values on the discontinued/used market still prove this point today.

Although the Denon and Marantz units sounded good, I did not find them to sound consistently exceptional as compared to the Classe products when matched with my B&W speakers. Maybe it takes many years of listening to acquire an appreciation for accurate sound reproduction, but for my ears, the Classe sound is exceptional, while the Denon/Marantz sound is good.

Also, several years into the future after owning my Classe products, and if I ever do need customer support, I have confidence that they will be there for me. As do all owners of Classe products, I have an individual's name to contact directly either by phone or email, and they are/have been committed to do all in their power to assist me. Try getting this kind of service from Denon or Marantz, cause I sure did not get it from Pioneer Elite.

Value is in the eyes of the beholder, but most of the time with most things in life, you get what you pay for!

[WI Rotel]

Denon has always made very good (and some excellent) gear, however, regarding blowing away rotel maybe its the crack pipe speaking or your stuff was broken Your denon maybe louder due to impedance matching of components but that is about it. As I have posted before the difference in amps is mostly nil if power and everything else is the same, however gaguing true power of a component is a crapshoot since manufacturers don't all report it the same way. Distortion below 1% is essentially inaudible, thus, if the amp has the the ability to power to drive the speaker system regardless of what the speakers demands, it doesn't matter if its made by Sanyo or McIntosh. Of course therein lies the rub. The sonic differences amond big bruiser amps are negligible at best, however, no receiver in the market can match any of them, not by a longshot, since no receiver has the power capabilites of an RMB1095 (for example). Regarding amplification power is key of course speaker impedance is also trump, if ou are driving a pair of klipschorns, using a 500W Mc or a 100W pioneer will be the same since the speakers sensitivity is so high that essentially any amp will drive them with ease to ear splitting levels. However, much less expensive speakers such as XT's would benefit from the big power capabilities of a powerful amp since their sensitivity (and their impedance) is a fraction of the schorns' .

[emig5m]

Denon has always made very good (and some excellent) gear, however, regarding blowing away rotel maybe its the crack pipe speaking or your stuff was broken Your denon maybe louder due to impedance matching of components but that is about it. As I have posted before the difference in amps is mostly nil if power and everything else is the same, however gaguing true power of a component is a crapshoot since manufacturers don't all report it the same way. Distortion below 1% is essentially inaudible, thus, if the amp has the the ability to power to drive the speaker system regardless of what the speakers demands, it doesn't matter if its made by Sanyo or McIntosh. Of course therein lies the rub. The sonic differences amond big bruiser amps are negligible at best, however, no receiver in the market can match any of them, not by a longshot, since no receiver has the power capabilites of an RMB1095 (for example). Regarding amplification power is key of course speaker impedance is also trump, if ou are driving a pair of klipschorns, using a 500W Mc or a 100W pioneer will be the same since the speakers sensitivity is so high that essentially any amp will drive them with ease to ear splitting levels. However, much less expensive speakers such as XT's would benefit from the big power capabilities of a powerful amp since their sensitivity (and their impedance) is a fraction of the schorns' .

But must you not factor in other variables other than power alone? Like flatter frequency response or maybe a lesser amp will mask finer details more if the components it's built with are lesser quality. Maybe higher grade amps pass the signal less touched and more pure regardless of power ratings making finer details more audible? (Note: I did say "maybe" hehe)

Anyhow, I'd like to see crytklmass get his hands on some Emotiva stuff and test since he seems less bias toward name/price and more willing to give a fair comparison on actual performance and has experience with a wide range of gear.

[sikoniko]

Denon has always made very good (and some excellent) gear, however, regarding blowing away rotel maybe its the crack pipe speaking or your stuff was broken Your denon maybe louder due to impedance matching of components but that is about it. As I have posted before the difference in amps is mostly nil if power and everything else is the same, however gaguing true power of a component is a crapshoot since manufacturers don't all report it the same way. Distortion below 1% is essentially inaudible, thus, if the amp has the the ability to power to drive the speaker system regardless of what the speakers demands, it doesn't matter if its made by Sanyo or McIntosh. Of course therein lies the rub. The sonic differences amond big bruiser amps are negligible at best, however, no receiver in the market can match any of them, not by a longshot, since no receiver has the power capabilites of an RMB1095 (for example). Regarding amplification power is key of course speaker impedance is also trump, if ou are driving a pair of klipschorns, using a 500W Mc or a 100W pioneer will be the same since the speakers sensitivity is so high that essentially any amp will drive them with ease to ear splitting levels. However, much less expensive speakers such as XT's would benefit from the big power capabilities of a powerful amp since their sensitivity (and their impedance) is a fraction of the schorns' .

I'm having a hard time following your point here, but I'd like to comment on what I made bold.

I thought similar to that, and for a while I had a Classe CA-3200 and a Rotel 1085. The 3200 powered my front 3 speakers and the Rotel powered my rear and surround speakers.

I was not very happy with the combination, and when I replaced the Rotel with another Classe Amp, I felt that the Rotel amp colored the sound. While the Rotel amp is not bad, I think it goes to my earlier point about synergy in a system. I'm no longer a fan of mixing brands to cut corners, as tonality can vary.

[crytklmass]

I'm having a hard time following your point here, but I'd like to comment on what I made bold.

I thought similar to that, and for a while I had a Classe CA-3200 and a Rotel 1085. The 3200 powered my front 3 speakers and the Rotel powered my rear and surround speakers.

I was not very happy with the combination, and when I replaced the Rotel with another Classe Amp, I felt that the Rotel amp colored the sound. While the Rotel amp is not bad, I think it goes to my earlier point about synergy in a system. I'm no longer a fan of mixing brands to cut corners, as tonality can vary.

I agree, my dealer wanted me to buy a pair of krell fbp350 for my 2 fronts, then classe ca 5200 for the remaining, I mixed units once before, not good thing. I was set on buying classe 400 mono for fronts and ca 5200 for my remaining. I did a side by side comparison with my rotel 1090 380wpc, then my Denon poa-a1hdci. I never thought a denon amp would sound better than my rotel and the 200wpc classe, but it did and I have enough money left over to buy a pair of B&W 805s. The classe are a better match than rotel, but for the price difference the denon sounded awesome. Im NOT bashing any other competitors, I tested bryston, krell, macintosh, classe and rotel. I think some people but certain amps for bragging rights, or they are faithful to 1 company, just like chevy and ford people. Dont knock the denon without listening to it first. everyone hears something different and built there audio system for video or audio or both. my friend will only buy macintosh and martin logans. to him, there are the best in world. and thats ok for him. I started this thread to see what people thought of the new denon pieces vs. multiple seperates for 2-3x as much. the same can be said for speaker wire and rca cables.
I read in an eariler thread the new denon DVD-A1UD was not worth the money, what about the DVD-3800BDCI? 1 remote vs. 5 lol

[Race Car Driver]

I say kudos to acutally trying out several different brands/models and going with what you thought was the best option for you, even knowing it may not be a "popular" one.

That Denon setup looks beastly! And that combo is VERY killer you can do a lot with "so little"

[crytklmass]

there heavy as hell, 2 man lift for sure, the paperwork stated 160lb, but the website said 135 or so. I really hope I made the correct choice, I was on my way out the door to order the classe sp 800 and ca-5200. when the denon rep called and said "take it home, try it side by side and then make your choice". I forgot to mention I had Bryston, classe, macintosh, and the denon in my home all at the same time. I first tested 2 channel, then 5.1 with movies. I had my friend plug in the diff. amps and I would listen not knowing which were plugged in. the closest were classe and denon. but the new denon gives more options for 1/3 price. I didnt hear a $10,000 difference. I hope i didnt make a mistake.
question? the denon rep said I can bridge my fronts for 300wpc, then buy another poa-a1hdc1 and bi-amp them for 600wpc to all 3 fronts. is this possible?

[style]

@crytklmass,

The problem with Denon is too the after selll service.
if you dont have problem is all right...but if do you have a problem with so a "little" and complicate gear" with Denon will be not easy.

With Classe i go recieve a unit for the time when my unit go to Classe, I wait a month, i dont have problem to have spare part,...

sound: in stereo the Classe SSP dont give any chance to the denon....

the system from the power ampli to go brigde/bi-amp the 10 channel dont like me... I dont believe much in this "system".

Style

[Orb]

there heavy as hell, 2 man lift for sure, the paperwork stated 160lb, but the website said 135 or so. I really hope I made the correct choice, I was on my way out the door to order the classe sp 800 and ca-5200. when the denon rep called and said "take it home, try it side by side and then make your choice". I forgot to mention I had Bryston, classe, macintosh, and the denon in my home all at the same time. I first tested 2 channel, then 5.1 with movies. I had my friend plug in the diff. amps and I would listen not knowing which were plugged in. the closest were classe and denon. but the new denon gives more options for 1/3 price. I didnt hear a $10,000 difference. I hope i didnt make a mistake.
question? the denon rep said I can bridge my fronts for 300wpc, then buy another poa-a1hdc1 and bi-amp them for 600wpc to all 3 fronts. is this possible?

I do not think anyone can fault your choice as many do love the Denon reference AV amps, and I am sure they are pretty stunning (alas I only listened up to the 4308s while doing some comparisons).
One thing I am curious though, what pre-amp or processor was used with the various amps when you were testing?
Sorry if you did mention and I missed it.
And happy listening with those nice Denons

Hope everyone had a good Christmas.
Orb

[sikoniko]

there heavy as hell, 2 man lift for sure, the paperwork stated 160lb, but the website said 135 or so. I really hope I made the correct choice, I was on my way out the door to order the classe sp 800 and ca-5200. when the denon rep called and said "take it home, try it side by side and then make your choice". I forgot to mention I had Bryston, classe, macintosh, and the denon in my home all at the same time. I first tested 2 channel, then 5.1 with movies. I had my friend plug in the diff. amps and I would listen not knowing which were plugged in. the closest were classe and denon. but the new denon gives more options for 1/3 price. I didnt hear a $10,000 difference. I hope i didnt make a mistake.
question? the denon rep said I can bridge my fronts for 300wpc, then buy another poa-a1hdc1 and bi-amp them for 600wpc to all 3 fronts. is this possible?

If you are happy, then that is all that matters. enjoy!

[crytklmass]

I do not think anyone can fault your choice as many do love the Denon reference AV amps, and I am sure they are pretty stunning (alas I only listened up to the 4308s while doing some comparisons).
One thing I am curious though, what pre-amp or processor was used with the various amps when you were testing?
Sorry if you did mention and I missed it.
And happy listening with those nice Denons

Hope everyone had a good Christmas.
Orb

I used my Rotel rsp 1068, then did the same test with my old Denon AVR4800.
these were just the processors, I just switched my speaker cable to the different amps, I wanted to have a controlled audition. to make it fair with each amp. I listened to tori amos, 1812 overture, korn, metallica, watched a few frames of star wars and matrix. the bryston sounded like the sound was stuck in the speaker, no ambience. The mac amp sounded great with classical but not so good with heavy metal, the classe sounded good with everything. the denon sounded good with everything. I had to ask myself if I could justify an extra $10,000 for amps that sounded so close to each other.
This is just my opinion and what I hear, others may hear diff. and have diff. results. the only thing that does scare me is customer support if something breaks. Once I place my units on there stands they dont get touched or moved. classe ssp800 = $9000.00 denon avr = $5200. almost half the price

[sikoniko]

I used my Rotel rsp 1068, then did the same test with my old Denon AVR4800.
these were just the processors, I just switched my speaker cable to the different amps, I wanted to have a controlled audition. to make it fair with each amp. I listened to tori amos, 1812 overture, korn, metallica, watched a few frames of star wars and matrix. the bryston sounded like the sound was stuck in the speaker, no ambience. The mac amp sounded great with classical but not so good with heavy metal, the classe sounded good with everything. the denon sounded good with everything. I had to ask myself if I could justify an extra $10,000 for amps that sounded so close to each other.
This is just my opinion and what I hear, others may hear diff. and have diff. results. the only thing that does scare me is customer support if something breaks. Once I place my units on there stands they dont get touched or moved. classe ssp800 = $9000.00 denon avr = $5200. almost half the price

Did the price of the SSP-800 go up? I thought it was only $8000US.

I know Classe encourages people to call them, even if just for clarification. Their support is top-notch.

[crytklmass]

Ya, that was a typo. $8,000 is correct for the ssp-800 not including sales tax.lol still 2x more than the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, and the denon has a built in tuner.
I just hope all this power and circuitry lasts. My Rotel rmb1090 weighed 90lbs just for 2 channels. my POA-A1HDCI weighs 130+ with 10 ch @150wpc.
but then again many items started huge and are now small. ie, cell phones, p.c.s, even the new rotel amps are half the size. Guess it depends on quality control.

[speakerboy]

there heavy as hell, 2 man lift for sure, the paperwork stated 160lb, but the website said 135 or so. I really hope I made the correct choice, I was on my way out the door to order the classe sp 800 and ca-5200. when the denon rep called and said "take it home, try it side by side and then make your choice". I forgot to mention I had Bryston, classe, macintosh, and the denon in my home all at the same time. I first tested 2 channel, then 5.1 with movies. I had my friend plug in the diff. amps and I would listen not knowing which were plugged in. the closest were classe and denon. but the new denon gives more options for 1/3 price. I didnt hear a $10,000 difference. I hope i didnt make a mistake.
question? the denon rep said I can bridge my fronts for 300wpc, then buy another poa-a1hdc1 and bi-amp them for 600wpc to all 3 fronts. is this possible?

I have the AVP/POA combo to 803D (bridged), HTM2D (bridged) and 4 SCMS...I didn't bi-amp. You can bi-amp with the POA. But when you get your first POA amp, you should bi-amp your fronts first to see if it's worth getting a second for yourself. Somewhere on on this forum there is a guy named Mark that got a second POA to bi-amp his 802D/HTM1D system...maybe message him for his bi-amp results. You may want to search this forum or search the denon POA/AVP owner's forum on avsforum.com website.

[Orb]

I used my Rotel rsp 1068, then did the same test with my old Denon AVR4800.
these were just the processors, I just switched my speaker cable to the different amps, I wanted to have a controlled audition. to make it fair with each amp. I listened to tori amos, 1812 overture, korn, metallica, watched a few frames of star wars and matrix. the bryston sounded like the sound was stuck in the speaker, no ambience. The mac amp sounded great with classical but not so good with heavy metal, the classe sounded good with everything. the denon sounded good with everything. I had to ask myself if I could justify an extra $10,000 for amps that sounded so close to each other.
This is just my opinion and what I hear, others may hear diff. and have diff. results. the only thing that does scare me is customer support if something breaks. Once I place my units on there stands they dont get touched or moved. classe ssp800 = $9000.00 denon avr = $5200. almost half the price

Don't get me wrong, personally I think you bought the right equipment as each of us have different tastes and different aspects of sound that probably niggle us, or what we enjoy/look out for (bass for some, complete tonal balance for others, massive exciting dynamics, etc).
And those Denons are very good products from the positive feedback from everyone who has them, my loss was never to listen above the 4308s before deciding in splitting my setup into two systems; one reference 2-channel and an ok-fun HT surround.
I was just curious which pre or pro were used in the listening as this may contribute to what you enjoy as well.

Glad you like the system, and above all else that is what is important.
Hey did you compare the 4308s to those reference Denons?
I am curious how much of a different league top of the range are to the 4308 (a lot would be my assumption when also including build).

Cheers
Orb

[Briz vegas]

To be honest when this thread first stated I thought it was some dodgy sales trick. Person with no history pops up with expensive speakers plugging amp z as some sort of hifi holy grail for the price much lower than the competition .

Given the OPs later posts I no longer think this is the case. I do question using the humble Rotel pre-amp for auditioning all those amps. I would have gone for a similarly high quality preamp. Nothing wrong with the Rotel, but everything is built to a price. This exercise is not about getting good sound, it is about achieving exceptional sound quality.

Personally I would like to see more variety on this site when it comes to amp choices. Denon is a surprise at this price point, partly because it is a large corporation where shifting units is first, second and third priority. The smaller the companythe morelikely that passion will play a bigger role The product mayappeal to anarrower market as a result, but those customers are more likely to be similarly passionate about the product.

Has anyone ever visited the Naim forum for example. There are lots of guys over there posting pictures of 15 year old hifi, not just one or two. Refurbishing your old gear is equally valid to adding a new power supply (a favourite preoccupation) or trading in gear (at top prices) for newer gear. Its a different world to the "chuck out last years ipod" mentality, and I for one think it is great to see.

To our OP, enjoy the Denon, it is one of many good choices you could have made.

[crytklmass]

I did the same with my setup speakerboy my B&W 802ds are bridged 300w. My center HTM2D bridged 300w. 2 SCM1's each 150w. that leave me with 2 open channels for 2 more speakers. Had I decided on classe I would need to purchase 2 5200's and the ssp-800. that would have cost me much more. I hope I made the correct choice, with the economy I didnt want to take a chance spending $18,000.00 on amps. Denon resellers will sell for less than msrp of $7,000.00 my poa was only $4500.00 thats a big savings, my classe rep will only decrease his price 10% sometimes. bang for the buck goes to denon, it may only be considered a corvette compared to a classe ferrari, but Ill take it.

[wettou]

I say kudos to acutally trying out several different brands/models and going with what you thought was the best option for you, even knowing it may not be a "popular" one.

That Denon setup looks beastly! And that combo is VERY killer you can do a lot with "so little"

Looks very nice, I find interesting how some Classé owners are so snobby when it comes to Japanese brands!!

Let's not forget that the Japanese Electronic industry invented a number of audio and video technologies that we all take for granted some successful like CD, Blu Ray, cam coeders, cameras, projectors and some not so successful, DAT, Mini Discs, Laser Discs, SACDs.....

I personaly love Japan and the Japanese creative electronic drive, never the less why is it that when Denon or Sony ES come out with great products some people are always bashing them? B&W also has some cheap products in their lines and some outstanding ones as well. It is not because one goes with one brand or an other that they are inferior or ignorant.... I find interesting that in the TV industry Japan still domnate the market, let's not even talk about cars!! Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Honda have the best quality and are technologicaly more adbance that any American or European cars yes I know Ferrari and Lamborghini are unbelievebale ever drove one of these to the mall!!!

I have both Sony ES, Yamaha, Integra Research and Classé and all have strong points I just hope that my Classé will last like my Sony ES 11 years and counting....

By the way for those who are interested in Denon here it is at an incredible price: http://www.dependableaudiovideo.com/...4870C3849.aspx

[beden1]

Looks very nice, I find interesting how some Classé owners are so snobby when it comes to Japanese brands!!

Let's not forget that the Japanese Electronic industry invented a number of audio and video technologies that we all take for granted some successful like CD, Blu Ray, cam coeders, cameras, projectors and some not so successful, DAT, Mini Discs, Laser Discs, SACDs.....

I personaly love Japan and the Japanese creative electronic drive, never the less why is it that when Denon or Sony ES come out with great products some people are always bashing them? B&W also has some cheap products in their lines and some outstanding ones as well. It is not because one goes with one brand or an other that they are inferior or ignorant.... I find interesting that in the TV industry Japan still domnate the market, let's not even talk about cars!! Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Honda have the best quality and are technologicaly more adbance that any American or European cars yes I know Ferrari and Lamborghini are unbelievebale ever drove one of these to the mall!!!

I have both Sony ES, Yamaha, Integra Research and Classé and all have strong points I just hope that my Classé will last like my Sony ES 11 years and counting....

By the way for those who are interested in Denon here it is at an incredible price: http://www.dependableaudiovideo.com/...4870C3849.aspx

If you were referring to anything I said...I was not bashing Japanese products, as much to say that they themselves, largely have not done a good job of creating products with any lasting value. They have created commodities by not having a strong dealer network; not controlling their products being dumped into the marketplace for years; and having customer service that is lacking in any number of areas, including not being able to answer even the most simple of questions.

I also love my Sony ES products, and still have their first 9000ES DVD/CD/SACD player. I currently also have their SCD-XA9000ES player, and am planning on buying their new ES blu-ray player. I also love my Pioneer Elite and Sony TVs, and Pioneer Elite receiver. But, they themselves are the ones who have created the immediate obsolescence of their products, by their constant model changes, many of which were just mere color changes or small feature add-ons.

Just take Denon for example, of a company who severely hurt the perceived quality image of their products...as one is hard pressed to even find a local dealer beyond Circuit City, and it's like a needle in a hay stack to find any that even stock their higher line AVPs! The dealers of quality electronics don't want to carry brands like Denon any longer, as they won't/can't compete with the discounters who keep slashing the sale prices.

Your link to the on-line retailer who is advertising the Denon AVP at around $5,200 is a prime example of this, as well, please be warned that the warranty on this product that you buy from this non authorized Denon dealer will not be honored by Denon. This may also mean that you will not be able to get any firmware upgrades.

[Jmac]

Just because you don't find value in other products doesn't mean that others don't. you're stereotyping everyone else based on your own experience... It doesn't mean everyone shares that opinion... or should. :roll:

Well, it was not my intention to stereotype 'everyone', nor to offend anyone, and I certainly agree that people should not necessarily share my opinion which is of necessity primarily based on my own personal experience, but to make up their own minds; however, by evaluating gear in a reasonably scientific manner, i.e carefully matched/measured volume levels, and preferably blind to avoid expectation bias.

I disagree with your assertion, and most certainly do find value in some of the products being mentioned; however I stand by my point that it's not always about just the music performance when we're talking 'value' of such kit, but exclusivity, reputation, perceived build quality, audiophile peer acceptance etc - these things inevitably 'add' value to a product as well. I appreciate and respect that, but argue it has little to do with the essence of the product, which is the ability to get you as close to the 'real' music performance as possible.

Jon... 8)

[btf1980]

I disagree with your assertion, and most certainly do find value in some of the products being mentioned; however I stand by my point that it's not always about just the music performance when we're talking 'value' of such kit, but exclusivity, reputation, perceived build quality, audiophile peer acceptance etc - these things inevitably 'add' value to a product as well. I appreciate and respect that, but argue it has little to do with the essence of the product, which is the ability to get you as close to the 'real' music performance as possible.

This is true. And is testament to the allure of brands like McIntosh. The resale value for it is strong due to demand. For all inclusive purposes, a 40 year old intergrated Mac amp probably isn't that great by todays standards, but some people will buy it over modern wares that are superior in sound and build quality. C'est la vie.

I've heard this analogy before and I agree with it. McIntosh is to audio gear what Harley Davidson is to motorcycles.

That being said, I like mac. :T

[Race Car Driver]

I did the same with my setup speakerboy my B&W 802ds are bridged 300w. My center HTM2D bridged 300w. 2 SCM1's each 150w. that leave me with 2 open channels for 2 more speakers.

Thats how I would do it, 2 channels to each of the front three, and the following 4 channels for 4 surround speakers.

Not a bad deal for "1 box".


I was considering buying the combo I can get it for half off, but I just "settled" for the new 140x7 Yamaha 3900 for now. Hoping it arrives next week.

I have other irons on the fire at the moment.

[speakerboy]

I did the same with my setup speakerboy my B&W 802ds are bridged 300w. My center HTM2D bridged 300w. 2 SCM1's each 150w. that leave me with 2 open channels for 2 more speakers. Had I decided on classe I would need to purchase 2 5200's and the ssp-800. that would have cost me much more. I hope I made the correct choice, with the economy I didnt want to take a chance spending $18,000.00 on amps. Denon resellers will sell for less than msrp of $7,000.00 my poa was only $4500.00 thats a big savings, my classe rep will only decrease his price 10% sometimes. bang for the buck goes to denon, it may only be considered a corvette compared to a classe ferrari, but Ill take it.

You could bridge the rear or go for 7.1 surround if you have space but finding a pair of matching SCM1 speakers will be difficult. I really love the SCMS speakers and how the tweeter is located in the enclosure rather than the top.

I assume you have done the Audyssey calibration.

Don't forget to connect your AVP to the Internet and download the latest firmware updates. Denon is definitely dedicated to this flagship pair in providing bug fixes.

[Orb]

I have no experience in bridging so what I am about to say is sketchy at best and maybe someone else such as Kal could step in to correct or clarify.

My understanding is that when you use bridging this puts a lot more stress on the amp (not sure if it is voltage rails/input stage/output stage/etc, and this can translate into extra heat dissipation and stability.
Does anyone else know what affects bridging has with regards to increasing the clipping capability, in other words does bridging double the voltage rail output/current output or do something else and at what cost?

I just thought that when bridging an amp they usually suggest never to use speakers that go below a certain ohm or that are too demanding due to what bridging does.
They never seem to explain why you should never break this threshold so I am not sure if bridging can affect amp durability and I appreciate the amp design may also be part of any consideration of bridging.
Might be worth checking up on this and if anyone has anything to add I would be grateful as it is something I would like to hear from those who know and had long term experience, especially when you consider the demanding impedance and phase of many of the higher speakers by B&W.

This is not meant as a scare story as I am sure we would had many posts in past by those who have had failures, but more of a food for thought that hopefully can be clarified.

Cheers
Orb

[garak]

I used my Rotel rsp 1068, then did the same test with my old Denon AVR4800.
these were just the processors, I just switched my speaker cable to the different amps, I wanted to have a controlled audition.

I do question using the humble Rotel pre-amp for auditioning all those amps. I would have gone for a similarly high quality preamp. Nothing wrong with the Rotel, but everything is built to a price. This exercise is not about getting good sound, it is about achieving exceptional sound quality.

I agree with Briz. crytklmass, this is why I believe that you didn't hear the improvement from some amps that you tried out. Don't get me wrong, Rotel makes nice gear, and in fact, I owned the RSP-1069 and RMB-1077 for a while.

However, that being said, using the 1068 and Denon to do the test, your processors were the bottleneck and you weren't getting everything out of the amps. The Rotel can't produce the fine detail that some of the amps can take advantage of. That's why after a certain point, they sounded the same.

But in the end, I'm glad you're happy with your system.

[crytklmass]

and just so everyone knows. I purchased through www.listenup.com an authorized denon dealer. no matter what the price, make sure there authorized or your screwed. He already said he would match an authorized denon dealer price, i found 1 for $5400.00. he said he would match the price.

[beden1]

and just so everyone knows. I purchased through www.listenup.com an authorized denon dealer. no matter what the price, make sure there authorized or your screwed. He already said he would match an authorized denon dealer price, i found 1 for $5400.00. he said he would match the price.

That's good you bought your Denon products through an authorized dealer, and also got an excellent price. :T

[Orb]

Afternoon all.
I just did a little reading on bridging amps as I was sure that it did add more stress to the amp.
The biggest consideration is make sure you have plenty of room around the amp, as it sounds like the stress is translated into extra heat dissipation due to drawing greater voltage/current.

From what I have read and this is in simplest form (so not quite correct) is that when bridging each channel is seeing a doubling of the ohm, so if the speaker is operating at 4ohm each bridged channel is seeing 2ohms.
On top of this to ensure too much voltage and current is not drawn the amp will be using some sort of protection mode quite often I would assume (seems to be the overall suggestion).

So the POA in bridged mode can handle 4ohm, however the 802d and 803s drop down close to 3ohms if looking at measurements from publications (presenting 1.5ohms at times).
At a minimum this is adding to the stress, but the good news is that the speakers hopefully are not operating down that low too often or for a sustained amount of time.
Still, it may be worth contacting Denon with regards to speakers that have complex impedance that goes down to 3ohms at times while using bridged mode.
At a minimum I would look to maintain a good clearance for air to help dissipate the heat, which may be all that is needed.

Hope this is of use.
Cheers
Orb

[Race Car Driver]

Afternoon all.
I just did a little reading on bridging amps as I was sure that it did add more stress to the amp.
The biggest consideration is make sure you have plenty of room around the amp, as it sounds like the stress is translated into extra heat dissipation due to drawing greater voltage/current.

From what I have read and this is in simplest form (so not quite correct) is that when bridging each channel is seeing a doubling of the ohm, so if the speaker is operating at 4ohm each bridged channel is seeing 2ohms.
On top of this to ensure too much voltage and current is not drawn the amp will be using some sort of protection mode quite often I would assume (seems to be the overall suggestion).

So the POA in bridged mode can handle 4ohm, however the 802d and 803s drop down close to 3ohms if looking at measurements from publications (presenting 1.5ohms at times).
At a minimum this is adding to the stress, but the good news is that the speakers hopefully are not operating down that low too often or for a sustained amount of time.
Still, it may be worth contacting Denon with regards to speakers that have complex impedance that goes down to 3ohms at times while using bridged mode.
At a minimum I would look to maintain a good clearance for air to help dissipate the heat, which may be all that is needed.

Hope this is of use.
Cheers
Orb

However the 802s as with most home audio speakers have a nominal Impedance of 8 ohms. While the 802s may dip down to 3.5 ohms, music being transient you are not at that 3.5 ohm load all the time, or even close to it. Only at certain frequencies.

Bridging an amp does increase the load on the amp, the amp "sees" "half" of the impedance of the speaker its hooked up to. So bridged it would see about 4 ohms.

Are there side effects to running an amp at a lower impedance? Yep, as you mentioned, more heat, more stress, more power and the downside, the THD increases.

Id say dont worry about bridging the Denon, im sure it will be just fine.

However instead of bridging it, and what I have done in the past with a 2 channel amp to my center, just do the ever so controversial bi-amp.

[Orb]

However the 802s as with most home audio speakers have a nominal Impedance of 8 ohms. While the 802s may dip down to 3.5 ohms, music being transient you are not at that 3.5 ohm load all the time, or even close to it. Only at certain frequencies.

Bridging an amp does increase the load on the amp, the amp "sees" "half" of the impedance of the speaker its hooked up to. So bridged it would see about 4 ohms.

Are there side effects to running an amp at a lower impedance? Yep, as you mentioned, more heat, more stress, more power and the downside, the THD increases.

Id say dont worry about bridging the Denon, im sure it will be just fine.

However instead of bridging it, and what I have done in the past with a 2 channel amp to my center, just do the ever so controversial bi-amp.

Sure I understand that, but this needs to be offset that the 3ohm dip is the upper bass around 70-100 Hz, meaning that even with a subwoofer your still going to be careful and your channels are dealing with the equivalent of around 1.5 ohms.
See Stereophile measurements showing phase and impedance for the 802d.

Also you cannot forget that while it looks like it halves the ohms, the voltage and current is massively increased and this has to be managed by some sort of production system.

I chatted to someone who has blown a very stable amp (specced to 2ohms) just driving a 2ohm speaker at moderately loud levels that is without bridging.
I would not dismiss what I am saying out of hand.

Orb

[wettou]

and just so everyone knows. I purchased through www.listenup.com an authorized denon dealer. no matter what the price, make sure there authorized or your screwed. He already said he would match an authorized denon dealer price, i found 1 for $5400.00. he said he would match the price.

Who did you speak with at listenup?:T

[Race Car Driver]

Thats pretty nice in the champagne color too. Avail in Europe only I believe.

















As far as this combo, I wouldnt worry about bridging it, using it for whatever. It was designed just for that.

Here are some quotes from Deonons Director of Product Development, Jeff Talmadge

LU: Let's talk about the amplifier.

JT: The POA-A1, HDCI — a lot of alphabetical things there. It's our first stand-alone amplifier in about eight years. The old POA-S1 was probably the last thing in this type of range, and it doesn't cost as much. Some may look at it and go, ‘Okay, that's a bit crazy.’ I mean, it's a 10-channel amplifier. But, again, once your customers see the back panel and figure out we've left enough configuration there with bi-amping, with bridging capabilities, a lot of guys are asking: ‘150 by 10 for $7,000?’ It's rated at 8 ohms, conservatively. We are rating it at 4 ohms with UL listing, which is very rare. You hardly ever see that. It doubles its output power if you bridge it into 4 ohms, like 500 watts a channel into five. So it leaves the customer with a lot of configuration capabilities. They can bi-amp their front three. They can bi-amp all five. They can do whatever they want and have more power.

You look at the back panel, and it's a blade design amplifier. And by the way, it's not digital; it's good, old-fashioned analog, which is part of it's 160-pound bulk. There are only 10 truly individual channels. We have 8 power supplies and 5 fans. It only needs a 15-amp circuit for what it can do. And it has communication capabilities. It has feedback for Crestron. It has its own RS-232 port, which you don't find on many amplifiers. It has a communication system with the pre-amp by itself. So we'll fire it on and fire it off, not just by triggers but actually in some communication capability. And we may add some other feedback down the road, since the AVP's updatable using the server. So, as a pair at $14,000 for the AVP and POA-A1, you're going to have some interesting things to look at.

Also if anyone cares to read more about this...

http://www.listenup.com/content/partner_stores/denon/talmadge.feb.08.php

[crytklmass]

They may state a $14,000.00 asking price, but like any company, they will price match. I paid just under $10,000.00 for both units. It does give off alot of heat, alot more than my Rotel 1090 and the classe 5200 I was testing. I still have another 45 days to test before I decide which I will keep. Now I have another dealer going out of business and for the same price I could buy a Mcintosh mc207 200wpc x 7, and the mx136, but he said he would sell me the replacement ssp. coming out next month. suppossed to compete with classe ssp800.