HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[JonMarsh]

The funny thing about all this talk about what will happen in the future isn't really something I'm paying much attention to- it's what I'm watching now. Including "King Kong". And when I get back from this overseas biz trip the end of next week, the Matrix Trilogy is how I'll "celebrate".

Re codecs vs. formats, for just picture quality, no doubt the codec rules supreme, and as MPEG 4 encoding tools become more mature, I expect it to come to dominate the others- but Sony's sticking with MPEG2 so long is either short sighted or arrogant. Or both? Sure hope they get a better source print and use AVC when they do TFE next time.

And BTW, the HD-DVD DVE IS a very nice disk, but I'm sure it wasn't easy to produce, I had it on backorder many many months before they finally shipped it.

And I'm hardly surprised to hear Walmart in many locations is dropping HD-DVD and Blu-ray; it's not like I look to Walmart as a trend setter and leader in introducing consumer or A/V products- remember, they're VERY mass market; not what you'd call the Nordstrom's of general merchandizing. Think back to how long it was before they carried much DVD. They don't create markets, they move in on established markets primarily based on price.

Walmart + Dell, now that's a match made in heaven.


Heck, I have the same problem with Best Buy- just try to go their and buy any kind of decent midrange LCD monitor- all they mostly carry these days is the $300 and below crap. Why do I say "crap"? It's just a factor of image quality, inputs, resolution, colorometry, etc. Having bought a few in that price range as gifts for others, their performance shortcomings compared to something like a better Samsung (not top end, just better, something like the 213t, 214t, 244t, etc) just isn't there for applications like digital photography. I wouldn't expect them to only carry the good stuff, but the fact is that my local BB just DOESN'T carry any good stuff anymore.


Same problem trying to compete for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray- at least BB has a moderate selection of disks (though not as many as I have at home- the mark of the early stages in adoption, like the first year or two of DVD). But for convenience and pricing, and selection, it's pretty tough to beat Amazon.

Oh, and before I left this weekend, my most recent order of SACD's got in, you know, that other dead format with quite a few new releases. (but rarely anything good from SME, unfortunately). Two hybrid disks from Hiromi, "Time Control" and "Sprial", both recorded in DSD, are a special treat for fusion jazz lovers.

All for now- off to work!

[George Bellefontaine]

And I'm hardly surprised to hear Walmart in many locations is dropping HD-DVD and Blu-ray; it's not like I look to Walmart as a trend setter and leader in introducing consumer or A/V products- remember, they're VERY mass market; not what you'd call the Nordstrom's of general merchandizing. Think back to how long it was before they carried much DVD. They don't create markets, they move in on established markets primarily based on price.

Thing is, Walmat carried both formats as soon a each was released, and the only place to buy them locally without a 2 hour drive to the nearest city. But what is really disappointing is that Blockbuster will not be carriying either format for rental until God knows when. I was giving some thought to getting the LG dual player but the problem of local availability of either format has changed my mind.

[Blindamood]

Thing is, Walmat carried both formats as soon a each was released, and the only place to buy them locally without a 2 hour drive to the nearest city. But what is really disappointing is that Blockbuster will not be carriying either format for rental until God knows when. I was giving some thought to getting the LG dual player but the problem of local availability of either format has changed my mind.

My local WalMart never carried either format, so it was not an issue for me. Ordering online seems to be the cheapest route anyway, so I basically order all discs through Amazon. They usually reach me within a few days, and I don't use any gas in the process. As for renting, I've had very good success lately with Netflix delivering blu-ray discs to my door as well.

[aud19]

As for renting, I've had very good success lately with Netflix delivering blu-ray discs to my door as well.

Sadly no Netflix available in Canada :cry:

[Blindamood]

Amazon Buy Two, Get One Free Sale

Buy two Sony blu-ray titles, get one free. Check it out here:

Amazon B2GOF Blu-Ray

[Robert Zohn]

Joe has been incredibly short sighted in his blind support for HD DVD. There are so many factors that go into making a good encode. Mpeg-2 has been shown to be perfectly capable of producing a picture as good if not better than VC-1. Of course, if you starve it of bandwidth, then it is going to look terrible. It would be interesting to see how much he allowed for his supposed BD transfer. As others have said, high bitrate AVC is currently the reigning king of PQ and VC-1 at a low bitrate simply cannot match it. Not to mention the problems VC-1 is currently having with softening of the image and loss of fine detail...

Amir's comments, on the other hand, are no surprise at all. He is a blind cheerleader and has repeatedly spoken half-truths and outright falsehoods in his attempt to promote his company's agenda. He has done more harm than good in promoting HD DVD and VC-1 with his tactics like the ones that he used on the cruise. Way to alienate, Amir!

This is my first day as a member and my first post so please be easy with me. So with all due respect please accept my contribution as I would like to be an active and welcome member. So here goes.

I am sorry to disagree with you about Joe Kane as Joe is one of the leading video scientists. Joe is a expert on video and video encoding.

Amir is a very highly regarded forum member and was given special privileges as an industry insider. I know Amir personally and professionally very well as I have enjoyed working directly with Amir on several conferences at CES and the DVD convention were we were both expert panelists (I am also an insider on AVS Forum). Amir and a few senior development engineers and managers flew to my store to have an insider HD DVD private meeting with about 30 HT enthusiasts. We had an amazing and fascinating evening.

Amir works for MS and hence he represents his company, but I do not agree in anyway whatsoever that he has ever say anything that was not truthful. What needs to be considered here is the competing optical disc formats have developed into a war and both sides are fighting. Also things change very quickly in these developing advanced technologies so sometimes I or Amir may be told a fact that may change as time goes on so our insider information turns out to be incorrect down the road.

One thing for sure is that if you ever meet Amir you would immediately know you were in the presents of a very intellectual, very fine gentleman. Amir has done extremely well to honestly promote and educate tens of thousands of HT enthusiasts to go with HD DVD. He has pursueded studios to use VC-1, even some BD studios. He is the brains behind HDi and VC-1.

VC-1 is far more advanced and more than 3 times more efficient than the older MPEG-2. The image quality is no better or worse on either encoding method, it's just that VC-1 is more modern and efficient. It's the authoring, mastering and final disc replication that makes or breaks the final video/audio quality not the encoding.

VC-1 has several additional benefits built-in to its advanced efficiency like looking at each frame and only increasing the bitrate in any area within a frame that would benefit from additional bandwidth.

I have a strong technical background and have very close ties to the BD and the HD DVD camp. My retail business is among the very largest retailers offering BD and HD DVD players as we sell as many players as any major retailer.

I love both formats as our thirsty HDTVs need more quality HD content. For me I slightly prefer HD DVD. My reasons are as follows:

1. The consumer equipment is less expensive than BD.

2. Their are hundreds of thousands of SD DVD replicators that can not easily convert their factories to produce BD discs, but can easily convert their lines to produce HD DVD and even run SD DVD at the same time. Why put these great companies out of business?

3. The format winner, if their is ever going to be one, will serve strictly to benefit either Sony or Toshiba. Toshiba deserves the prize as they are the one of the co-inventors of SD DVD and they are a much easier and nicer company to work with. This battle is all about money and has nothing to do with what's best for us.

4. I love Jazz and would like to produce a limited production of Jazz concerts on a HD optical disc. With BD it's impossible as the start up and production costs are far higher than HD DVD and much more complicated to pull off. You also need to produce many more discs to bring the economy down as low as HD DVD can be for as little as 5000 discs. And if you want to utilize BD 50 DL forget it as only two replicators in the world can produce them and the costs and waiting time is very out of line.

5. I like great audio so HD DVD mandated TruHD lossless audio make me happy.

6. HDi works great and I enjoy learning more about the movie and the PIP and interactive menus are very cool.

7. HD DVD mandated network connection has a few very interesting benefits with the latest release, Blood Diamond and it's gets even better with CBS/Paramount's exclusive release later this year of the original Star Trek series.

8. Near perfect calibration can be accomplished with Joe Kane's Video Essentials HD DVD disc.

Today I had the pleasure to meet John Holmes on the phone and he told me about your forum so thank you John for inviting me here. If I can be of any help here I would enjoy posting industry insider and technical information whenever I can be of service to your forum.

-Robert

[aud19]

Welcome aboard Robert :T It's always nice to have more industry experts to add intelligent and valuable content to HTG

[Chetk]

This is my first day as a member and my first post so please be easy with me. So with all due respect please accept my contribution as I would like to be an active and welcome member. So here goes.

First off, let me just say that I have seen you many times over at AVS. Also, my arguments below are in absolutely no way personal towards you as I do respect your opinions.

Amir works for MS and hence he represents his company, but I do not agree in anyway whatsoever that he has ever say anything that was not truthful. What needs to be considered here is the competing optical disc formats have developed into a war and both sides are fighting. Also things change very quickly in these developing advanced technologies so sometimes I or Amir may be told a fact that may change as time goes on so our insider information turns out to be incorrect down the road.

So do you mean to say that, when Amir told everyone that dual layer BD's was a pipe dream, and then a few short months later they were being mass produced, he was just conveniently told a fact that happened to change all of a sudden?

One thing for sure is that if you ever meet Amir you would immediately know you were in the presents of a very intellectual, very fine gentleman. Amir has done extremely well to honestly promote and educate tens of thousands of HT enthusiasts to go with HD DVD. He has pursueded studios to use VC-1, even some BD studios. He is the brains behind HDi and VC-1.

I've never met Amir, but I don't have to meet him to know that he's a very intelligent man. He wouldn't be in the position he's in at MS if he wasn't intelligent. In fact, it takes a very intelligent man to be able to spin the facts as well as he does. Let's face it, just the fact that you're talking about VC-1 and iHD just goes to show that he and MS have a LOT to gain from HD-DVD winning this war. If so much is at stake, it's painfully obvious that people are willing to do anything to "win."

VC-1 is far more advanced and more than 3 times more efficient than the older MPEG-2. The image quality is no better or worse on either encoding method, it's just that VC-1 is more modern and efficient. It's the authoring, mastering and final disc replication that makes or breaks the final video/audio quality not the encoding.

VC-1 has several additional benefits built-in to its advanced efficiency like looking at each frame and only increasing the bitrate in any area within a frame that would benefit from additional bandwidth.

No arguments there. It's a good thing that Blu-Ray also supports the exact same codecs as HD-DVD...at higher bit-rates to boot.

I have a strong technical background and have very close ties to the BD and the HD DVD camp. My retail business is among the very largest retailers offering BD and HD DVD players as we sell as many players as any major retailer.

Is it safe to assume that you've sold A LOT more HD-DVD players than set top BD players? Could that be because the best selling BD-player is the very fine PS3 (which contains the online access you mention in your list)? And does your retail outlet sell the PS3? If not, could this be another reason you favor HD-DVD? Should this be added to your list below?

I love both formats as our thirsty HDTVs need more quality HD content. For me I slightly prefer HD DVD. My reasons are as follows:

1. The consumer equipment is less expensive than BD.

You're right. HD-DVD players, currently cost less than Blu-Ray players. So, why then, do you think BD software has been outselling HD-DVD software since the release of the PS3? I guess people are more willing to pay upwards of $500 to get Blu-Ray than they are the less-expensive HD-DVD. What does that say about the HD-DVD format? Plus, right now is early adopter time. Blu-Ray players have already been announced that will be $299 by Christmas. Just this weekend ASUS announced a $270 Blu-Ray computer drive due out for Christmas. I'm sure we'll see even less expensive models announced at CEDIA 2008. By then, the format war will be starting to venture into medium-mass adoption. The PS3 will have more games available (promoting PS3 sales) and BD-Live will have been out for a few months.

2. Their are hundreds of thousands of SD DVD replicators that can not easily convert their factories to produce BD discs, but can easily convert their lines to produce HD DVD and even run SD DVD at the same time. Why put these great companies out of business?

Did buying the SD DVD replication equipment put them out of business? Maybe they'll be out of business if they don't support Blu-ray. Here's my reasoning: What happens when the HD-disc format starts getting sales that are higher than their SD DVD counterpart? If the current trend continues, Blu-Ray software sales will only continue to grow. So, let's say that HD-DVD dies. They'd be left with SD-DVD replication equipment that isn't making them any money. Sure, BD replication equipment is expensive, but so was DVD replication equipment when it was in its infancy. Stay competitive or die. Being in retail, you should know this better than I.

3. The format winner, if their is ever going to be one, will serve strictly to benefit either Sony or Toshiba. Toshiba deserves the prize as they are the one of the co-inventors of SD DVD and they are a much easier and nicer company to work with. This battle is all about money and has nothing to do with what's best for us.

I don't understand this one. Because Toshiba helped invent SD DVD we should give them our support with HD-DVD? How about this?: I propose that we start support the companies that create the greatest technology. That being 50 GBs vs. 30 GBs and higher data rates for audio and video. Besides, Sony makes fantastic products. BetaSP, DigiBeta, and now Sony's HDCam have been thriving as the industry leading equipment for professional capture. They aren't going anywhere and they always push the edge when it comes to technology. I think I'd much rather put my support into a company who does that. I'm not sure I know what you mean by Toshiba being a "nicer company to work with." As a consumer, I've never had a problem with my Sony purchases or support. Do you mean that, as a retailer, your margin is lower when you sell their products?

4. I love Jazz and would like to produce a limited production of Jazz concerts on a HD optical disc. With BD it's impossible as the start up and production costs are far higher than HD DVD and much more complicated to pull off. You also need to produce many more discs to bring the economy down as low as HD DVD can be for as little as 5000 discs. And if you want to utilize BD 50 DL forget it as only two replicators in the world can produce them and the costs and waiting time is very out of line.

I can't argue with you there. All I can say is that, as more BD replication facilities pop up (which they're already doing), this will become a non-issue. I suppose there is a bit of patience required for the "little guy" that wants to produce HD discs. But also keep in mind that it won't be the "little guy's" content that helps either format become the main format for the masses. As far as authoring goes, Adobe's new Encore product will allow you to author BDs. Getting them mass replicated, on the other hand, could be an issue depending on the definition of the word "mass."

5. I like great audio so HD DVD mandated TruHD lossless audio make me happy.

No problem. You are more than welcome to author or buy BDs that contain TrueHD, uncompressed PCM and/or DTS-HD MA. There aren't very many smart HD-disc studios that are authoring their discs without lossless audio. If they are, my bet is that it won't last for long. Plus, Blu-Ray offers more space to allow for more of these lossless audio tracks.

6. HDi works great and I enjoy learning more about the movie and the PIP and interactive menus are very cool.

Other than PIP (which is also coming to BD very soon), BD-J does everything HDi can do. How easy or difficult it is to program in these two languages is meaningless to the end consumer. They couldn't care less. I have no doubt that there are enough Java programmers out there that could pick up BD-J in no time anyway.

7. HD DVD mandated network connection has a few very interesting benefits with the latest release, Blood Diamond and it's gets even better with CBS/Paramount's exclusive release later this year of the original Star Trek series.

BD-Live will be very nice too. Although it's not mandated, perhaps that's another reason that BD set top players aren't selling like the HD-DVD players. Don't forget, the PS3 already has online capabilities. BD-Live will be there for sure. Don't fret. I'm sure you'll be able to sell a lot of BD players as soon as BD-Live becomes mandated. Plus, you'll have a LOT more manufactures to choose from. Both as a retailer and a consumer.

8. Near perfect calibration can be accomplished with Joe Kane's Video Essentials HD DVD disc.

I haven't followed this one very much, but wasn't a BD version of this supposed to eventually hit the market? If not, I'm sure a BD calibration disc will hit the market too.

Today I had the pleasure to meet John Holmes on the phone and he told me about your forum so thank you John for inviting me here. If I can be of any help here I would enjoy posting industry insider and technical information whenever I can be of service to your forum.

-Robert

Welcome to this forum Robert. I look forward to our future discussions.

If you wouldn't mind, since you gave a list of why you slightly prefer HD-DVD, I'd like to list my reasons for preferring Blu-Ray:

• 50 GBs. for Blu-Ray vs. 30 GBs for HD-DVD. (How this relates to movies on either format can be debated, but I have yet to hear someone say that 30GBs is better than 50GBs...and even if they did, they'd be wrong.)
• Higher data rates for video on Blu-Ray.
• More large studio support on Blu-Ray.
• More movies that have the highest box office numbers will be released on Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD.
• If Universal decided to go Blu-Ray at any given time (this has been debated too many times to keep track), HD-DVD would be history. From what I have read, Universal's HD-DVD exclusivity contract ends on Dec. 31 of this year.
• For copy protection Blu-Ray offers, not only Advanced Access Content System (AACS), but also BD+ and ROM Mark. Some consumers might think of this as a bad thing, but I've always been in support of more copy protection. I think it's wrong that people make copies of their DVDs for their friends and families or share them online. More copy protection will mean more support from content providers. Especially since AACS has already been hacked.
• Current trends: They show that Blu-Ray is getting adopted much faster than HD-DVD. At least on the software side. And to any movie studio, that's what matters. And that's what will get us more content.

One last thing. I own a PS3. That's my only involvement in the war. I am not paid for supporting Blu-Ray (although I wish I was) in any way, shape or form. I'm just a movie and music lover. The sooner this war is over, the sooner mass adoption can take place. THAT'S what I'm hoping for. Congratulations. You've caused me to write the longest post I've ever made in the history of the internet.

[Chris D]

Welcome, Robert, I look forward to your input. :banana:

[John Holmes]

Welcome to the Guide, Robert!

Thanks for looking us up. I'm sure all here will look forward to your contributions.

[George Bellefontaine]

Welcome, Robert. I look forward to many more enlightening posts such as your first. I have not taken sides with either format and will likely buy a dual player someday, but I am in no rush.

[John Holmes]

No debate for me!

I have stayed out of this debate. My reason, simple, I believe that both formats give us the intended purpose...HD presentations.

With that said, today I took delivery of my new Toshiba HD-XA1. Too bad I have nothing significant to report at this time. Between my A/C being worked on (current temp inside 87 degrees, too hot for my projector) and the Spurs/Cavs on tonight, I may not even get to turn it on till tomorrow.

I can tell you guys this much, imo, this is one beautiful piece of equipment. Even the remote is sexy! :B

My reason for going with HD-DVD over BR at this point was simple. The DVD player that I was using (Toshiba SD-3870) was acting up on certain disc. So I was going to replace it with the Oppo HD-981. However, when the price of the XA1 was reduced to near the same ballpark, the choice was easy.
I've wanted the XA1 since it was introduced. But, I would not pay $799 or even $499 for it.

When the Blu-Ray players break $399 price, I'll look at them again. But I have a feeling, I'm going to be ok for a bit. 8)

[George Bellefontaine]

Hi, John. I understand that the Tosh is an excellent upconversion player as well. I want to avoid two players in my rack ( there just isn't enough room ) so I hope to get invlolved at a later date with some kind of a dual player. But I'm in no real rush.

[aud19]

Tough blow for the HD-DVD camp:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172635...stnews;title;1

[Chris D]

Yes, just saw this same thing. Interesting that they say in there that 70% of renters go for Blu-Ray. I wonder what Netflix is seeing.

[Chris D]

Oh, yes, and I've been keeping a periodic eye on the Format Wars.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Blu-Ray has been dominating for a couple months now, completely shutting out HD-DVD. HD-DVD made a small move last 1-2 weeks, taking a couple categories, but they're back to completely BD now. (the HD-DVD move seemed to happen when Matrix was released) I wonder how permanent this BD winning is?

[Pez]

I have seen some stories that Walmart may offer sub $200 HD DVD players. I guess they are looking into some Chinese compaines to manufactur 2 million players. I dont know if that will swing the format war in thier direction but if it doesnt happen they could have a hard time keeping up.

[John Holmes]

Tough blow for the HD-DVD camp:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172635...stnews;title;1

That can't be good for HD-DVD. But, the last few times I was in a BB store, there wasn't a lot of activity. Very few customers. Now niether of these times were on a Fri or Sat night. It does make me wonder how much penetration this will actually have on the maket???

[Chetk]

Blu-Ray has been dominating for a couple months now, completely shutting out HD-DVD.

By "a couple of months", do you mean since the PS3 was released in November? :P

I have seen some stories that Walmart may offer sub $200 HD DVD players. I guess they are looking into some Chinese compaines to manufactur 2 million players. I dont know if that will swing the format war in thier direction but if it doesnt happen they could have a hard time keeping up.

There is also going to be a $270 Blu-Ray player out within the next several months and, I would bet, a $250 Blu-Ray player (if not a $199 player) out by the end of the year.

the last few times I was in a BB store, there wasn't a lot of activity. Very few customers. Now niether of these times were on a Fri or Sat night. It does make me wonder how much penetration this will actually have on the maket???

It has been said that the home video business is an 8 billion dollar a year industry (including Netflix, Hollywood Video, BB, etc.) Blockbuster has nearly 6 billion of those. You tell me how much influence you think they have.

[John Holmes]

Those are great stats ChetK, but, stats don't decide everything. SACD/DVD-A was carried by some of the biggest retailers in business. Yet today...

As I've stated previously, I really don't care which camp/format wins. I do find it very interesting that some individuals can be so passionate about one side or the other.

[Chris D]

News report today, claming that this has already affected the HD-DVD camp. You decide if it's true.

http://www.psu.com/node/11746

[Pez]

Figures this happens right after I buy an HD-DVD player, and the more expensive one at that).

[JonMarsh]

Hey, no problem, think I'll celebrate by going out and buying another HD-DVD player!

Just got in another half a dozen SACD's, too, including a relatively new LSO Beethoven cycle (symphonies 1-9) recorded in 2005 and 2006 with DSD (pro SACD). Lucious... as are the Al Dimeola japanese import SACD's.

It just comes down to whether you can get the software you want, and for me, I buy about three times as many SACDs as I do CD's. Folks with more "mainstream" tastes could have problems, of course.

Doesn't mean I might not pick up a PS3 someday for Blu-Ray, but with the final specs for the format not expected until this October, there's no way I'd touch a conventional BD player- these aren't Gen 1, they're more like Gen 0.7. And their upgradeability to the final spec is a large unknown at this point.

~Jon

[Pez]

Doesn't mean I might not pick up a PS3 someday for Blu-Ray, but with the final specs for the format not expected until this October, there's no way I'd touch a conventional BD player- these aren't Gen 1, they're more like Gen 0.7. And their upgradeability to the final spec is a large unknown at this point.

~Jon

Interesting and good to know as I was unaware about the final specs thing. Even though I have a PS3 I was considering a stand alone BD player just so I could get the analog multi-channel out feature (the only thing the PS3 is lacking but I wouldnt really expect it to have that type of connection in a "gaming" console). It bugs me that I cant get next gen sound from BD since I consider that to be half the reason for going next gen DVD. And I wont be able to get a new pre/pro with HDMI inputs for some time.

[Blindamood]

Doesn't mean I might not pick up a PS3 someday for Blu-Ray, but with the final specs for the format not expected until this October, there's no way I'd touch a conventional BD player- these aren't Gen 1, they're more like Gen 0.7. And their upgradeability to the final spec is a large unknown at this point.

Jon, exactly what final specs are you referring to? According to the Blu-Ray Disc Association, the spec was completed early in 2006:

January 2006 Press Release

Regardless, I and many others are already enjoying the blu-ray experience very much!

[Chetk]

Jon, exactly what final specs are you referring to? According to the Blu-Ray Disc Association, the spec was completed early in 2006:

January 2006 Press Release

Regardless, I and many others are already enjoying the blu-ray experience very much!

I suspect he's referring to BD+ (which just got finalized), BD-Live (which is still in the works, planned for October) and DTS-HD MA support.

Even though I have a PS3 I was considering a stand alone BD player just so I could get the analog multi-channel out feature (the only thing the PS3 is lacking but I wouldnt really expect it to have that type of connection in a "gaming" console).

See the HD-DVD supporters claim that HD-DVD set-top players sell much more than the BD set-top players. And, I'd imagine, that this is why. After October, when the 1.1 spec is finalized, I'd be willing to bet that BD set top players will take off leaving HD-DVD sales in the dust. The reason the PS3 is such a good purchase now, is that it is highly unlikely that Sony won't upgrade the PS3 to each new BD spec as it's released. I have a PS3 and love it. I don't feel as though I'll be left in the dust.

[John Holmes]

See the HD-DVD supporters claim that HD-DVD set-top players sell much more than the BD set-top players. And, I'd imagine, that this is why. After October, when the 1.1 spec is finalized, I'd be willing to bet that BD set top players will take off leaving HD-DVD sales in the dust. The reason the PS3 is such a good purchase now, is that it is highly unlikely that Sony won't upgrade the PS3 to each new BD spec as it's released. I have a PS3 and love it. I don't feel as though I'll be left in the dust.

This has made the transition process so much easier deal with. Firmware upgrades have been pretty good for both HD and BR. The one issue being, will the hardware be able to keep pace? I know that (read on the net) my HD-XA1 will probably never do 1080p. Not a big deal for me at this stage since, I lack a 1080p set. But could be an issue for others. I hope that the PS3 and other BR units have the guts to keep up with the firmware.

[Chetk]

I hope that the PS3...[has] the guts to keep up with the firmware.

It sure would be a bad move on Sony's part if they didn't. I've read some interviews with the PS3 developers and they seem to indicate that they are no where near being done. In fact, they are purposfully not taking advantage of everything the cell processor has to offer. They want to leave room for later additions. For instance, they are only using about 30% of the cell processor now. If they wrote an application that maxed it out, then they couldn't add functionality later on. However, it sure seems that they are releasing worth-while firmware updates to this point and I don't see them slowing down any time soon.

[Pez]

See the HD-DVD supporters claim that HD-DVD set-top players sell much more than the BD set-top players. And, I'd imagine, that this is why. After October, when the 1.1 spec is finalized, I'd be willing to bet that BD set top players will take off leaving HD-DVD sales in the dust. The reason the PS3 is such a good purchase now, is that it is highly unlikely that Sony won't upgrade the PS3 to each new BD spec as it's released. I have a PS3 and love it. I don't feel as though I'll be left in the dust.

I certainly dont feel using the PS3 is leaving me in the dust either. In fact, when I use the PS3 I am amazed at everything it can do. The sound from the digital out is very good (seems better than my Denon DVD 2910) but it would be nice if I could get the next gen sound.

There is one thing about the PS3 that drives me nuts, the blue tooth remote, Yes its cool but I have a nice universal remote for a reason. I do not like having to have another remote out just for the PS3. Regardless I am very happy with the PS3.

It should be noted that I dont support either format - I support next gen DVD, whichever format it is. But if a movie comes out on both I tend to lean towards the BR version only because I have had the PS3 much longer than the XA2.

[Chetk]

Yes. The bluetooth issue and the 1080i issue are the only things that bother me at this point.

[Chris D]

Pez, I just read that an IR remote dongle has just been released for the PS3. People are reporting early good experiences with it. Don't have one myself, yet.

[Pez]

Pez, I just read that an IR remote dongle has just been released for the PS3. People are reporting early good experiences with it. Don't have one myself, yet.

Nice!

[Chetk]

Pez, I just read that an IR remote dongle has just been released for the PS3. People are reporting early good experiences with it. Don't have one myself, yet.

By whom? Is this a Sony product? Logitech? What about discrete on/off codes? Do you have a link? Sorry for all the questions, but I look forward to the day that I can go back to using my Parasound C1 remote to control everything.

[Chris D]

Yeah, tell you what... just so I'm not hijacking this thread, I'll post it in the PS3 thread over here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23502&page=5

[Nolan B]

Jon, exactly what final specs are you referring to? According to the Blu-Ray Disc Association, the spec was completed early in 2006:

January 2006 Press Release

Regardless, I and many others are already enjoying the blu-ray experience very much!

the spec is BD-J 1.1 which will be released end at the end of October. No current Blue Ray player will be able to upgrade.

[Nolan B]

There is also going to be a $270 Blu-Ray player out within the next several months and,

Do you have a link to this info?

[Chetk]

Maybe I should have said "drive" instead of "player", but the drive is a player too. Link

[Nolan B]

Maybe I should have said "drive" instead of "player", but the drive is a player too. Link

But drives are not what people use on a wide basis to play movies on that they bought.

a $200 HD DVD stand alone player is ALOT different then a $270 BD drive to the movie watching masses.

[Chris D]

Another news report claiming a statistic about BD, saying Blu-Ray is currently outselling HD-DVD discs by a five to one ratio.

http://www.psu.com/node/11763

[Nolan B]

Here are some good articles showing how HD DVD is outselling Blue Ray with respect to stand alone players.

http://news.portalit.net/fullnews_Toshiba-Drops-Prices,-HD-DVD-Sales-Rise_2715.html

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/663

some good news about HD DVD pricing to stay low perminantly

http://www.engadgethd.comwww.engadgethd.com/2007/06/29/toshiba-maintains-hd-dvd-promotional--prices/

Here is a good read about the IME HD DVD can offer.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-not...ant-273454.php

[George Bellefontaine]

Today Bluray ( Sony ) is on top. Tomorrow HD DVD ( Toshiba ) is on top... :roll: I could care less about Sony or Toshiba. Somebody just bring out a good and reasonably priced ( LG isn't ) dual player and I'll be in the game.

[Chetk]

Here are some good articles showing how HD DVD is outselling Blue Ray with respect to stand alone players.

http://news.portalit.net/fullnews_Toshiba-Drops-Prices,-HD-DVD-Sales-Rise_2715.html

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/663

Sure, HD-DVD players are outselling Blu-Ray players. They're a lot cheaper. But what does that say about HD-DVD that they sell more set-top players, but their content sales are getting outsold three to one? It's funny to me that HD-DVD supporters don't count the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player. To the content makers, they don't care what device plays their content...as long as it sells.

Also, if we're going to look at "cheap" HD-DVD players and compare them to Blu-Ray players, at least mention that the cheapest HD-DVD player doesn't even output 1080p. The "entry-level" HD-A2 only outputs 1080i and I didn't read anywhere that says it will ever be upgraded to support 1080p. That is, IF you can find one.

some good news about HD DVD pricing to stay low perminantly

http://www.engadgethd.comwww.engadge...ional--prices/

In other news, Blu-Ray prices are dropping too. Imagine that.

Here is a good read about the IME HD DVD can offer.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-not...ant-273454.php

I'll admit it, there's some nice stuff there. Blu-Ray will be able to do all of that very soon. Sure, some of the early Blu-Ray players won't be able to do that, but I'm betting that the most sold Blu-Ray player (the PS3) will be able to do all of that. BD-J & BD-Live will work just fine.

Let's also mention BD+. Maybe it will get cracked. Maybe it won't. If it does, let's see how long it will stay cracked. That's the whole point behind BD+. Can HD-DVD do that? Somehow, I doubt studios like for their content to be shared everywhere across the web.

[Chetk]

Today Bluray ( Sony ) is on top. Tomorrow HD DVD ( Toshiba ) is on top... :roll: I could care less about Sony or Toshiba. Somebody just bring out a good and reasonably priced ( LG isn't ) dual player and I'll be in the game.

I should note that since the release of the PS3, Blu-Ray has never NOT been "on top."

A dual format player is not the answer. If either of these formats are going to survive long-term, one format is going to have to reign over the other. Most consumers don't want to have to pay the extra cost of licensing two technologies when they buy their players. Why should I have to pay Sony for Blu-Ray functionality and Toshiba for HD-DVD functionality all in one player when, all I want to do is watch a movie in high definition? We're talking two laser diodes, plus all of the licensed technologies behind BOTH formats. It's just too much to pay for not enough advantages.

[George Bellefontaine]

A dual format player is not the answer.

I disagree. A sensibly priced dual player would bring more consumers to the market place and that would lead to lower software pricing. And if one format offers better content, features, etc., than the other, one may fall by the wayside. If not, who cares ? A dual player offers the best of both worlds.

[Nolan B]

Sure, HD-DVD players are outselling Blu-Ray players. They're a lot cheaper. But what does that say about HD-DVD that they sell more set-top players, but their content sales are getting outsold three to one? It's funny to me that HD-DVD supporters don't count the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player. To the content makers, they don't care what device plays their content...as long as it sells.

Also, if we're going to look at "cheap" HD-DVD players and compare them to Blu-Ray players, at least mention that the cheapest HD-DVD player doesn't even output 1080p. The "entry-level" HD-A2 only outputs 1080i and I didn't read anywhere that says it will ever be upgraded to support 1080p. That is, IF you can find one.



In other news, Blu-Ray prices are dropping too. Imagine that.



I'll admit it, there's some nice stuff there. Blu-Ray will be able to do all of that very soon. Sure, some of the early Blu-Ray players won't be able to do that, but I'm betting that the most sold Blu-Ray player (the PS3) will be able to do all of that. BD-J & BD-Live will work just fine.

Let's also mention BD+. Maybe it will get cracked. Maybe it won't. If it does, let's see how long it will stay cracked. That's the whole point behind BD+. Can HD-DVD do that? Somehow, I doubt studios like for their content to be shared everywhere across the web.

You arent one of those guys who has a personal attachment to a format are you?

BD+ will be cracked.

100% of the current blue ray players will not be able to do what HD DVD can already do. When BD-J gets released all current BD players will not be able to upgrade. That has already been confirmed by the BDA. The PS3 may be able to be upgraded, but what about all the people who spend $1000 on a movie player?

By all accounts BD should be KILLING HD DVD with software sales, but when both formats combined make up less then 1% of the total software sales and since the beggining of both formats BD has 59% of the 1% and HD DVD has 41% of that 1% its pretty hard to say one side is winning.

Personally I dont care which formats wins, and my heart and soul tells me that both are going to be around for years to come. If 1 dies it will be because both die.

With regards to your 1080p question consider this. The Xbox Add on does 1080p and they have sold 155,000 of them (and it costs less then $200). The Toshiba XA2 does 1080p and can be had for less then the cheapest BD player.

Toshiba sold 75,000 A2s in the last week of may alone! (BTW i read but cant confirm there were only 82,000 PS3s sold in the whole month of may). If you think movie studios are going to stick to one side when the other side is selling movie players (which prove to sell more movie then game consoles) at a rate like you are mistaken. They have share holders to be accountable to.

Both formats are here to stay and dual format players will come by the 1000s.

HD DVD has the #1 selling HD movie of either format (Planet Earth)
HD DVD has a higher attach rate then BD
HD DVD is selling more stand alone players (by a long shot)
HD DVD players are all up to spec even the first gen

I own both formats and follow the "war" very close. Here is what I have learned IMO. HD DVD delivers, and BD is full of promises and announcements that the "war is over", or the next big thing coming down the pipe "will end the war".

My post may read like I am a "HD DVD fan boy" but the trueth is I could write a post all about the strengths of BD as long as this one.


I started liking 1 format and now just like HD movies.