HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[drsiebling]

For those of you with Blu-ray players: I just screened Casino Royale and it is nothing short of fantastic! It's a great movie and an outstanding transfer with brilliant 5.1 PCM audio!

[Chris D]

Yes, this is on my Netflix list to come as soon as I can get it.

[Blindamood]

For those of you with Blu-ray players: I just screened Casino Royale and it is nothing short of fantastic! It's a great movie and an outstanding transfer with brilliant 5.1 PCM audio!

Yeah, from what I've heard so far, this one will definitely end up in my permanent collection.

Did you guys take advantage of the 50% off sale on amazon.com this week...? :T

[Chris D]

Wait... what sale is this?

[Blindamood]

This one:

amazon blu-ray disc sale

This showed up on another forum early this week...apparently some of the titles are already sold out. I ordered five, and they should be delivered today (I hope!).

The other great thing to note about amazon -- just before this sale I had ordered two BDs that showed up at a lower cost in the sale. I went back to amazon and requested a rebate for the difference, and it was credited back to my card the next day. Incredible.

[ToddAnisman]

Lex, there are some wide variances in quality (both P and S) for discs in both formats. There are "tier ratings" out there helping people pick those movies that are in the highest quality for their format. I just watched "Corpse Bride" and "Blackhawk Down" while are both among the top 5 BD discs out there so far. Fantastic.

If you're looking for the best quality disc that's on both formats so you could compare between the two, "Pearl Harbor" is getting some good ratings. (for PQ and SQ at least)

He he he Chris...Go Watch the Spanish mix on the BluRay of "Corpse Bride"...I mixed that track!!!

-Todd A.

[Chris D]

Ah, I rented it, not bought it. That's cool that you did that, though! I don't think I have ever listened to an alternate language track on any movie I've ever watched. No need.

[ToddAnisman]

Ah, I rented it, not bought it. That's cool that you did that, though! I don't think I have ever listened to an alternate language track on any movie I've ever watched. No need.

Yeah yeah the forgotten people in post...the Foreign version guys.. But the film did look amazing, especially when you compare it to the crappy picture I mixed against. I'm always horrified when i see the final picture, because there's stuff you just can't see in the blurry one lights that come for dubbing. Ouch. It is a good film, and I loved working on it.

-T

[bigburner]

Blu-Ray will whip HD-DVD, which is 1 of 10 reasons why PS3 will whip Xbox, according to Brian Hastings, Chief Creative Officer of Insomniac Games, as you will see in this detailed article: http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/1010.html

Here's what Brian says about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD:

A lot of people have been waiting on the fence to see whether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD would emerge as the winner of the format war. Well, at this point the war is as good as over. Blu-Ray has won a TKO. It always had superior technical specs and much wider studio support, but there was the question of whether HD-DVD’s earlier release and initially lower price would capture enough of the market to make it the winner. But Blu-Ray has already surpassed HD-DVD in overall discs sold, and is currently outselling HD-DVD discs at about a 3:1 rate. Many neutral observers in the A/V community have called the war in favor of Blu-Ray. If you want minute-to-minute updates, you can follow what’s left of the format war at various locations on the internet:

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/versus.aspx

These sites mainly compare Amazon sales data, but the Nielsen sales data shows the same thing: Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVD by a steadily increasing margin.

Many of Disney, Fox and Sony’s biggest box office movies will release exclusively on Blu-Ray in the next three months, likely pushing the sales separation between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to a margin where many retailers will begin phasing out HD-DVD. Retailers hate a format war even more than consumers, and I suspect they’ll take the initiative to end it as quickly as possible.

Nigel.

[George Bellefontaine]

I could care less who wins as long as somebody does soon.

[Brandon B]

While I agree Blu-ray will probably win, and I really like all of Insomniac's games, they are basically joined at the hip to Sony, and so not a source of objective commentary.

I don't think that will kill the Xbox 360 though, just the add on drive. Which will probably be quickly replaced with a Blu-ray add on, showing some degree of foresight on MS' part. 360 has a lot going for it in other respects, as well as MS' wallet and determination to make it the media hub behind it.

Nonetheless, I wish the format war would end so Universal will put the new King Kong out on BD. I haven't seen it and I have a PS3, so I can't buy it until they do.

BB

[Pez]

I have seen several articles already declaring BR the winner. Well if thats the case why arent any stores unloading all of thier HD-DVD stuff at deep discounts. Until stores stop carrying one of the formats its a little premature to call a victory already.

Like George I dont care who wins as long as either camp does it soon.

[bigburner]

When I watch traditional DVDs on my ordinary 1024x768 plasma monitor using my budget Oppo 971 DVD player I marvel at the excellent quality of the picture, so I'm in no hurry for either Blu-ray or HD-DVD. Both of the new formats must be amazing given the impatience that some members have for a winner to emerge.

However I am interested in the battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Perhaps it's because I work in the IT industry. It reminds me of the fight to the death years ago between IBM and Microsoft for desktop operating system supremacy. Anyone remember OS/2?

Anyway, back to the topic. Today I came across another article for those of you who are following the battle. Microsoft has just released a high-end version of their Xbox 360 console - Elite - which does not include an integrated HD-DVD drive. The thrust of the article is that Microsoft now has doubts about the future of HD-DVD and wants to mitigate risk by keeping its options open.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17824564

Nigel.

Edit: oops, I see that much of this is already covered in Tower of Power.

[Doug]

well, I tell you, just getting to a screen to play an HD DVD on the Xbox is a bit frustrating at first. I also find the image quality to be a lot softer than my dedicated player. This is probably another good reason to not include it inside, until they could offer a bit better quality. It may well be that BD has won, or it may well be that this is propaganda from BD camp trying to take the elusive victory. I'll continue to buy both formats to get the must have titles until it changes.

[Gremal]

The real war is between standard definition and HDTV. By the time HDTV wins (which may only come about through obsolescence of standard TVs and DVD players), blu-ray (if it's still around) will have supplanted HD-DVD, simply because it is the better format with more support from the major studios.

[Chris D]

I found this one interesting/obnoxious/overkill:

http://www.psu.com/node/9816

Seems like the HD-DVD fan-boys organized a buying-spree to overtake BD's lead in monthly sales. Big jump in sales at the time of the spree. Now the BD fan-boys are organizing their own buying spree to give their own jump in sales. One of the days is today, April 21st.

Seems a little silly to me. Are you that committed to one particular technology, that you'll organize a buying spree just to affect the sales stats? Seems to make more sense to me, that if you like something, you'll buy it to own it, and that's that.

[gross30]

Thats a little much.

[Charles]

Looks like Amazon will be the winner of this war.

[Chris D]

Had an interesting day yesterday. I'm on the Home Theater Cruise, and yesterday morning we had a symposium attended by Joe Kane and representatives from the Blu-Ray Group, HD-DVD group, Microsoft, THX, Dolby, and DTS.

It was rather... interesting. No shortage of drama, that's for sure. Some of the attacks on competing formats were just downright uncalled for. The claims and accusations did keep the discussion lively.

First, something important on a related subject: I FINALLY had all my doubts put to rest, and learned a lot direct from the experts... Craig Eggers of Dolby, the DTS guy, THX, and others all confirmed it as experts. Right now, if you have your HD player decode the new high-res audio formats and them stream it to your receiver/processor via LPCM, you get the exact same resolution and quality as if you send the native stream via HDMI 1.3 to the processor to do the decoding. We have more lectures on Friday and Saturday to (at least try to) teach us the details, but for now, I'll accept the truth of the industry gurus who know FAR more about this than any of the rest of us. I have now seen the light!

What this means is, as others have already stated here, you can get full digital connection and resolution of all HD audio streams using player decoding and HDMI 1.1/1.2, not waiting for 1.3. We have another lecture later this week to learn more about 1.3. Furthermore, the entire panel expressed that the direction of the future may ACTUALLY be to have players do all decoding in the future, not the receivers/processors! What's more, they firmly stated that to have full use of "interactivity" with the HD formats, you MUST use player decoding! Very interesting... we didn't get into what that means, though.

Blu-Ray clearly expressed that their position on consumers and HD formats is all about content. And on that, of course, they clearly feel that BD is the leading format, because 7 of the 8 major studios use BD, and 4 of those use BD exclusively. HD-DVD's response to that was stating that Universal, the last studio of the major 8 and the one that uses exclusively HD-DVD, puts out more movies than Disney and 1-2 others combined. HD-DVD focused on various technical features that they felt gave them the advantage in the war, as well as currently cheaper players. Interestingly enough, HD-DVD and Microsoft took the position that they are committing to region-free operation.

All panelists agreed that it would be better if there were no format war--there was no argument there. They pointed out, though, that once the two formats were developed, the only way they could have been "consolidated" into one format would have been for one to just give up and completely conceed to the other. So then we got into combo players, or possibly combo discs. Again, surprisingly, HD-DVD and Microsoft actually publicly stated that they actually support a "universal" player that supports both discs. BD didn't seem to really have a problem with it either.

We asked the question whether the new HD audio will be replacing DVD-A and/or SACD. Craig Eggers of Dolby indicated that this will not be happening, and said that he thinks DVD-A and SACD will simply be around as long as consumer demand supports it. Once the support goes away, they'll stop being produced.

Another question was about the large current cost of HD discs. The answer was just that the demand is not big enough yet to enable cheaper discs. (of course, this means, we need to see if costs will actually drop once demand increases)

One person asked whether we'll be seeing any QUALITY players come to the market soon, not just the entry-level early generation players we currently have. They specifically asked about "boutique" manufacturers, and saw that Meridian was listed as coming out with a player soon. The panelists waffled a bit, not wanting to talk on the behalf of Meridian or give secrets out as far as timing, but it looks like this may actually happen!

We got to see a insider advance screening of the soon-to-come HD-DVD of the Matrix. It was simply STUNNING on Runco's top-end $80k three-chip DLP projector and Stewart screen. Lots of new detail in the movie. Can't wait! On a bad note, though, BD said that Cars has been delayed; no new release date yet in HD.

Bottom line--looks like neither format will be disappearing in the near future, regardless of who it seems is winning the war or why. Will we see one format win, the other disappear? Maybe, and actually I do personally think it will happen. But there's still some major fighting to be done, from what I just saw.

[ShadowZA]

Interesting stuff ... thanks, Chris :T

[bigburner]

Furthermore, the entire panel expressed that the direction of the future may ACTUALLY be to have players do all decoding in the future, not the receivers/processors! What's more, they firmly stated that to have full use of "interactivity" with the HD formats, you MUST use player decoding! Very interesting... we didn't get into what that means, though.

Is it possible that the move towards player decoding is designed to prevent illegal copying of digital content? Think about it. 100% pure digital audio/video output from a player makes piracy a lot easier. If the player does the decoding then it only needs to output analogue. Perhaps in the future players wont provide digital output at all, and if they do, it will be downgraded output only? Perhaps player manufacturers will be licenced to decrypt the content on discs, and if they don't play by the rules they won't get a licence to decrypt? Perhaps this leaves HDMI out in the cold with no future? Perhaps I've misunderstood the whole thing and should wait until Chris tells us what's really going on!!

Nigel.

[Peter Nielsen]

Is it possible that the move towards player decoding is designed to prevent illegal copying of digital content? Think about it. 100% pure digital audio/video output from a player makes piracy a lot easier. If the player does the decoding then it only needs to output analogue.

And what about us with amplifiers that take digital input only, such as the Boz 216/2200? Do we need to take a step back, sell our expensive gear, and go back to old analog amps?

I don't think so...

Peter

[George Bellefontaine]

Thanks for that post, Chris. Lots of information. It sort of tells me that I should be considering a universal player, and I likely will when prices settle to a reasonable level.

[Lex]

thanks for the info Chris, regardig this?

One person asked whether we'll be seeing any QUALITY players come to the market soon, not just the entry-level early generation players we currently have. They specifically asked about "boutique" manufacturers, and saw that Meridian was listed as coming out with a player soon. The panelists waffled a bit, not wanting to talk on the behalf of Meridian or give secrets out as far as timing, but it looks like this may actually happen!

I hate to be a pessimist, but this may be true for the rich/elite, I'd expect the price of their player to be in the 8-10,000 range if it's anything like Merridian's other stuff.

I prescribe less and less to the true high end class as being where we need to be. Yes, I have an albeit slightly aging high endish system. But I will not be replacing my MC-12 with a unit for 12 grand because it has 2 HDMI switch capability. Please.

But Merridian has always been upper crust, whether worth it or not, I'll leave that to those that can afford their gear, or want to afford it. Me, I fall in neither category.

A used Levinson 175 pound amp, yeah, 5K for a 10K amp, you betcha. 10-12k for a piece that for all intent and purposes is expensive window dressing with damn near the same internals as Sony produces? No thanks.

Also, this perhaps begs for definition to the term "high end". Hello, we are talking HIGH DEFINITON playback already. The digital audio is clean. Uh, what else can they high end except the case design, remote, and perhaps some ergonomics. but signal wise, from any high def player, the image can't get to much better. Marginally if any.

[LEVESQUE]

First, something important on a related subject: I FINALLY had all my doubts put to rest, and learned a lot direct from the experts... Craig Eggers of Dolby, the DTS guy, THX, and others all confirmed it as experts. Right now, if you have your HD player decode the new high-res audio formats and them stream it to your receiver/processor via LPCM, you get the exact same resolution and quality as if you send the native stream via HDMI 1.3 to the processor to do the decoding. We have more lectures on Friday and Saturday to (at least try to) teach us the details, but for now, I'll accept the truth of the industry gurus who know FAR more about this than any of the rest of us. I have now seen the light!

What this means is, as others have already stated here, you can get full digital connection and resolution of all HD audio streams using player decoding and HDMI 1.1/1.2, not waiting for 1.3. We have another lecture later this week to learn more about 1.3. Furthermore, the entire panel expressed that the direction of the future may ACTUALLY be to have players do all decoding in the future, not the receivers/processors! What's more, they firmly stated that to have full use of "interactivity" with the HD formats, you MUST use player decoding! Very interesting... we didn't get into what that means, though.

I remember saying exactly that (see bold parts) in here since over 1 year and getting alot of heat from some members and particularly 1 moderator... I was saying exactly that about HDMI 1.1 vs 1.3 since the first day the Anthem D2 came out 1 year ago...

But it's ok Chris. You can just say "you were right all along Lev" and I will call it a day... :B :W

Oh and btw. When he's talking about "that to have full use of "interactivity" with the HD formats, you MUST use player decoding" he means that when disks are encoded in Advanced Content, then the mixing (decoding) is always done in the player, even if you DON'T use any of the Advanced Content stuff! So if you send any bitstreams out (but you won't be able to do it anyway...), you will loose PIP, internet options or alternate endings, subtitles, language tracks not on the disks (that you will be able to get through the internet port), sound menus, etc. But if there is Advanced Content encoding on the disk, the player won't be allowed anyway to send bitstram out. The decoding MUST be done in the player even if you have a full HDMI 1.3 chain (player, receiver and display). It's mandatory.

[RebelMan]

Great information Chris, keep it coming.

Lev, please clarify which portion of the digital bitstream AC pertains to, is it video or audio specific. Also, why MUST the decoding of AC be done within the player? Is this information player specific or is it some form of digital rights management/licensing requirements? If AC decoding is video only, that shouldn't prevent the RAW audio bitstream from being decoded by a pre/pro that supports the advanced codecs, correct?

[LEVESQUE]

Both the video and audio MUST be docoded and mixed in the player, even if you DON'T use any of the Advanced Content stuff.

It's mandatory, and in the specs for both HD DVD (since day 1) and Blu-ray (new specs starting october 2007). HD DVD were ready on day 1, and 99% of the HD DVD out there are already in Advanced Content. Sony were caught with their pants down 1 year ago, so they had to react fast and came out with a temporarily solution until they got their act together. So in october next fall, all Blu-ray titles will be in Advanced Content and will go interactive. So 99% of the Blu-ray the titles coming this fall won't be allowed to send any bitstream out, just like HD DVD.

Blu-ray doesn't have any other choices since they are offering LESS then HD DVD for now, since there in no interactive stuff possible. They can't do nothing like the more advance stuff on HD DVDs...

If AC decoding is video only, that shouldn't prevent the RAW audio bitstream from being decoded by a pre/pro that supports the advanced codecs, correct?

It's not video or audio only. Impossible. Both audio and video must be decoded and mixed internally, in the player. It will be impossible to send only the audio out, even if you don't use any of the Advanced Content stuff.

For example, sound while navigating the menus must be mixed with video in the player. Impossible to mix bought in the pre/pro or receiver. And it's mandatory. The second the player is seeing any Advanced Content on the disk, it WILL do the mixing and decoding and won't be allowed to send bitstream out. Or else there wouldn't be any subtitles, sound while navigating the menus, PIP, etc...

I'm repeating this since 1 year already. Anthem made the choice to go with HDMI 1.1 1 year 1/2 ago exactly because of this. They knew what was coming. They knew HDMI 1.3 was not worth waiting for because of what I'm explaining here. And they were right to go with HDMI 1.1 instead of waiting for no reason.

[ShadowZA]

Ok, Chris & Levesque ... just so that I understand you correctly ... (regarding audio - which is my main interest) ... the player would decode the bitstream from the disc and then either:

1. Convert the signal to analogue (using onboard DACs) and output it in analog format (say 7.1 channels) - to be input to the processor via its 7.1 analog pass-through inputs.

Or

2. Output the decoded digital signal to the processor via HDMI. The processor would then convert this signal to analog via its onboard DACs and pass the analog out to the amps.

I want to make sure of this as my hopefully not-so long term intention is to be able to listen (not watch ... although video (std/high def or whatever) will no doubtedly accompany the sound as do most present DTS encoded audio that I listen to) to dynamic well recorded (a rarity) sound encoded in lossless Dolby True HD and/or DTS Master Audio. AND ... as DAC quality is important to me and this info should assist me in deciding which quality grade of player to get.

Is HDMI the only way to be able to input this high definition digital (not analog) audio into the processor (assuming one may wish to utilise its better DACs if that is the case)? I'm assuming that regular coaxial digital audio inputs might not be able to cope with the increased bandwith whilst HDMI can. AND ... is it possible to pass video content directly from player to monitor via HDMI whilst simultaneously routing audio to processor via analog pass-through? I'm assuming that this can be done.

Thanks.

[RebelMan]

Great questions Shadow, I'm with you on the audio!

Thanks Lev. But can you please explain why it is "mandatory"? Who is setting the audio and/or video guidelines? Dolby Labs? DTS? And weren't the HD-DVD/BD video specs authored by Toshiba and Sony respectively? I don't understand why both audio and video MUST be decoded together and why AC makes this a requirement.

[ShadowZA]

Great questions Shadow, I'm with you on the audio! ...

Thanks, RebelMan. Ditto :T

If we can grasp an understanding of the details now ... then we can plan to feed our treasured beasts (your 800D's & my 803D's) that which they rightfully deserve.

[Chris D]

Yes, I have seen the light! I'm now convinced that one can get full HD audio resolution by doing player decoding and HDMI PCM. Props to Levesque and others that recognized this earlier.

Will post more very soon when I have actual internet access.

[Chris D]

I got to sit down with the Dolby rep and discuss the HD audio issue in more detail. There were two major things I needed to hear to be convinced: first, it seemed to me that if the player decodes the HD audio to PCM, and then the receiver/processor has to take the PCM to output the pre-amp signal, that you were doing TWO levels of signal transformation, with an increased chance for fidelity degradation. However, Dolby did confirm that receivers/processors live in the PCM world, and would have to decode the stream through PCM anyway, so you're NOT adding a second decoding step.

Next, I was simply unsure whether HDMI 1.1/1.2 had sufficient bandwith to carry a fully decoded PCM signal that contained the full resolution of the original HD stream. This one's simple--the expert gurus have assured me that it does.

Now, does the decoding HAVE to be done in one place or the other, the player or the receiver/processor? I guess the answer would have to be, "it depends..." As stated before, to use the new interactivity of HD-DVD and BD, the PLAYER needs to do the decoding. The prime example might be new picture-in-picture features, where you could bring up a small window of a director commentary while you're watching the film, and then blend the two audios at selectable levels. Since you're controlling the interaction in the player, the decoding would have to take place there, not after-the-fact in the A/V processor.

Does this solve the issue, and mean that all you need is an A/V processor that can accept decoded PCM over at least HDMI 1.1? Of course not, not in this industry!!! Don't forget about issues like bass management, which traditionally processors do MUCH better than source equipment.

Several gurus at the conference were still toting the "solution" of multichannel analog audio inputs on receivers/processors. Do they work? Of course! But still not optimal--there are three possible problems:
1. Both the processor and player need to have the multichannel analogs. Most modern A/V processors do have at least 5.1 inputs, so you're (mostly) covered there. (but this year, we're going to be getting 7.1 material, so unless your model has 7.1 inputs, you're not getting all the channels!) But at least a couple of the HD players do not have multichannel analog outputs, such as the HDA2 and PS3, so those don't allow for this option. Getting even further into this issue, realize that many A/V processors have direct pass-through on the multichannel analogs, so that means no processing, like surround sound modes, or even bass management!!!

2. With extremely few exceptions, A/V processors only have one set of multichannel analog inputs. Since we still don't have a player for both HD-DVD and BD with full functionality, that means that to have both formats, you need two players, and two sets of inputs. Consider SACD and D3VD-A, and now you need at least three sets, if not more!!! There are multichannel switchers available, and these work, but realize that you're getting another level of connection and switching, in the analog format, slightly degrading the signal, and making it less than perfect.

3. Last, realize that multichannels are ANALOLG, not digital, so while you are getting much better resolution by stepping up to the new HD audio formats, it's not as good as using digital connections, because you have additional D/A conversion and transmission over analog, where signal degradation can occur.

(these problems may be minor, but they do make multichannels less than 100% optimal)

[RebelMan]

Does this solve the issue, and mean that all you need is an A/V processor that can accept decoded PCM over at least HDMI 1.1? Of course not, not in this industry!!! Don't forget about issues like bass management, which traditionally processors do MUCH better than source equipment.

I would think so. Doesn't bass management happen at the LPCM level anyway?

Thanks for all your effort Chris. :T

[ShadowZA]

Appreciate your report-back. Thanks, Chris. :T

[Chris D]

The week was quite interesting with BD and HD-DVD. I'll try to be as fair as possible in describing what happened, but there were some big partisan things that happened.

We got to see and hear all about the advantages of each of the formats, several of which I've already described. But the way they went about representing their formats was completely different. Blu-Ray really took to showcasing what their format can do and describing their specs potentials. The most controversial thing I heard them say all week was, during their format presentation, they showed a slide that listed which movie studios were using Blu-Ray only, only HD-DVD, or both. Obviously, there are many more using Blu-Ray. I never even heard them mention HD-DVD other than that, including pointing out that Blu-Ray has currently sold more movies and players than HD-DVD.

HD-DVD, on the other hand, came loaded to fight, and didn't pass up a single opportunity to attack Blu-Ray. Their format presentation included a substanial portion describing the problems they see with BD. Microsoft, when asked to talk about other topics during the week like HDMI or media servers, took several slams on BD, like "HDMI 1.3 has the capability to transmit XXX, which oh, by the way, the PS3 can't decode." During the HD panel with about 10 different companies represented, HD-DVD gave out free discs for anyone that asked what they considered to be a "good" question, and said in jest, "if you ask a bad question, you can talk to Blu-Ray".

HD-DVD definitely won the "cool points" of the cruise for demos during lectures, showing live clips from several different movies. There were several bugs, such as about .75 sec of lip sync delay in Van Helsing, but the demos were neat. For interactivity, they showed how you can go into the extras for "Fast and Furious: Tokyo Drift" and design your own car paint scheme. You can then watch the movie, and in one scene, the player will actually show the car painted real-time with the paint scheme you designed! It may be a gimmick, but it was still a pretty impressive demo.

One night, HD-DVD gave us a treat and showed the entire original "Matrix" on HD-DVD, which is still unreleased. On Runco's 80k flagship digital cinema projector and a Stewart Firehawk screen, it was AWESOME. We saw and heard detail that nobody has ever seen or heard in that film before, including (especially?) the theater. You can see each pore on the actors' faces, especially Lawrence Fishburne's facial marks. The lobby shootout scene is downright cool, culminating in the elevator explosion. The fire is rich in color, deep blacks. What really surprised me was the Construct, where Morpheus first takes Neo into the all-white stage. On HD-DVD, if you look hard enough, you can actually see the corner of the white room it was filmed in, where the floor meets the wall. I expected the whites in the scene to be brighter than ever, but they were actually somewhat grey-ish. The movie still has grain in it, which is another subject--moviemakers at the conference actually said that they want to KEEP grain in film, so preserve the art form! Since I don't have an HD-DVD player, I am jealous of you HD-DVD guys who get to watch the Matrix first. Since it's a Warner film, it will probably come to both formats, but HD-DVD is getting the first look.

It wasn't that Blu-Ray wasn't prepared for the conference, they were just content to present their info, sit back, let the discussion happen, and then respond when they saw inaccurate information accused of their format. Several of the attendees noticed this and commented.

I'll just restate this one how it happened--the conference concluded on a rather shocking note. Joe Kane, who most of you know is a HUGE industry player for video accuracy, made the last presentation about video fidelity. He showed Digital Video Essentials on HD-DVD, (DVE hasn't been recorded on BD) focusing on his opening intro with the roller coaster animation. He then put in a unique BD that he had created. He went to "a major disc production studio" that makes both formats of discs. Because BD has a higher disc capacity, he asked the studio to place his material on the BD, in both the VC-1 and MPEG-2 codecs, giving it an honest effort with both codecs. Joe then showed his material with the VC-1 codec, pausing at one point to illustrate the video detail. He then did the same thing with MPEG-2, paused it, and showed small grains in the video detail. It was small, but we all could see it. Sony and the Blu-Ray group spoke up, asking Joe if he would give them the opportunity to record Digital Video Essentials on BD, and give them a chance to record the same material in MPEG-2. Joe responded that he already gave an independant studio that makes BD's the opportunity to give it their best shot.

For those who don't already know, VC-1 is a codec that HD-DVD likes to use, because Microsoft created it, and one of the codecs BD can use is MPEG-2. So while this was not a commentary on the HD FORMATS, it WAS intended to be an evaluation of just two of the CODECS that the formats use. Here, Amir from Microsoft again jumped in, saying to Blu-Ray, "Blu-Ray just simply can't compete! HD-DVD clearly wins, case closed". Unfortunately, this was made even worse, because we ran out of time, and this little surprise explosion at the end was the last thing anybody heard in the conference.

[Chris D]

I'll post info on the HD audio formats and HDMI in separate threads.

[Lex]

I did a bit of software pre-release research last week, here's what I found coming to:

In this corner, we have the current Heavyweight champion, bosting wins at many studios, and a bigger set of muscles, they think.

These were the big hitters as I saw it, not necessarily all thats coming or even your favorites...

BD!

May 22 Pirates of the C I and II
June 5 Ronin, Jerry McGuire
June 8 The Rock

In the other corner, we have the contender, boasting a library of greats in it's history, and on that basis, may get the nod in this round due to two HEAVY punches!

HDDVD!
May 22 The Matrix Trilogy
The Game
DragonHeart
The Bourne Identity
Big Lobowski

Sorry, didn't have the dates for all releases for HDDVD, may all release on 5/22, not certain...

Pirates is ok, yeah, ,would be a fun adventure, but when the chips are down, for me, it's action adventure with a more modern orientation that thrills me most. This week, as good as the two are highlighted for BD, they just can't compete with HDDVD's two. For me, the Game is a awesome movie too, I just love and will definitely add in HD.

[Chris D]

Wow, I expected to stir up some heated discussion with my latest round of info... maybe not!!!

[gianni]

Wow, I expected to stir up some heated discussion with my latest round of info... maybe not!!!

I think there will be some heated discussion....Back at the Blu Ray think tank. Seems as though the codec is more important than the format.

I would guess that after those closing comments, Blu Ray guys felt like putting their tails between their legs. I have heard it mentioned before that the codec is the most important to PQ, not the format - Looks like Mr. Kane proved this. Very interestng timing. Seems like HD DVD has the upper hand here. The BR folks have some thinking to do. Then again, I doubt either camp is really concerned about PQ as quality is never a motivator for them. It's usually sales, DRM, etc.

[Blindamood]

Wow, I expected to stir up some heated discussion with my latest round of info... maybe not!!!

Chris, while I do appreciate your reporting of the latest info from the cruise, I must say that I personally have reached the point of diminishing return as far as the new technologies go. What I mean is, I love high-def movies (my color of choice is blu-ray), but I'm not particularly concerned about HDMI version, video formats, or advanced codecs. I'm enjoying the incredible 1080i picture on my crt rptv, and I'm sending the audio digitally to my Rotel processor via a coaxial cable. With this setup, I am more than content with the picture and sound quality I get; every time I sit down and watch a blu-ray (or even upscaled dvd) movie, I am impressed with my setup.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the current technology is more than good enough. I am passively following the latest developments, but so far see no reason to 'wait out' anything, while enjoying what is here right now.

[Chetk]

I think there will be some heated discussion....Back at the Blu Ray think tank. Seems as though the codec is more important than the format.

I would guess that after those closing comments, Blu Ray guys felt like putting their tails between their legs. I have heard it mentioned before that the codec is the most important to PQ, not the format - Looks like Mr. Kane proved this. Very interestng timing. Seems like HD DVD has the upper hand here. The BR folks have some thinking to do. Then again, I doubt either camp is really concerned about PQ as quality is never a motivator for them. It's usually sales, DRM, etc.

I am a little confused by your comments. First, you say that it "seems as though the codec is more important than the format." Then, you say "I would guess that after those closing comments, Blu Ray guys felt like putting their tails between their legs." Why would Blu-Ray be concerned about comments like Amir's when Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both support the exact same video and audio codecs? The only REAL difference is the data rates in which they are encoded. In which case, Blu-Ray wins every time. Hands down. There's no denying it.

Maybe Joe Kane should go back and have his Blu-Ray disc encoded in AVC (mpeg-4) at BD50 data rates and then do a comparison to VC-1. Seems like Pirates 1 & 2 and Apocolypto are doing just fine without Microsoft. :E

[drsiebling]

Joe has been incredibly short sighted in his blind support for HD DVD. There are so many factors that go into making a good encode. Mpeg-2 has been shown to be perfectly capable of producing a picture as good if not better than VC-1. Of course, if you starve it of bandwidth, then it is going to look terrible. It would be interesting to see how much he allowed for his supposed BD transfer. As others have said, high bitrate AVC is currently the reigning king of PQ and VC-1 at a low bitrate simply cannot match it. Not to mention the problems VC-1 is currently having with softening of the image and loss of fine detail...

Amir's comments, on the other hand, are no surprise at all. He is a blind cheerleader and has repeatedly spoken half-truths and outright falsehoods in his attempt to promote his company's agenda. He has done more harm than good in promoting HD DVD and VC-1 with his tactics like the ones that he used on the cruise. Way to alienate, Amir!

[Chetk]

Joe has been incredibly short sighted in his blind support for HD DVD. There are so many factors that go into making a good encode. Mpeg-2 has been shown to be perfectly capable of producing a picture as good if not better than VC-1. Of course, if you starve it of bandwidth, then it is going to look terrible. It would be interesting to see how much he allowed for his supposed BD transfer. As others have said, high bitrate AVC is currently the reigning king of PQ and VC-1 at a low bitrate simply cannot match it. Not to mention the problems VC-1 is currently having with softening of the image and loss of fine detail...

Amir's comments, on the other hand, are no surprise at all. He is a blind cheerleader and has repeatedly spoken half-truths and outright falsehoods in his attempt to promote his company's agenda. He has done more harm than good in promoting HD DVD and VC-1 with his tactics like the ones that he used on the cruise. Way to alienate, Amir!

I think Amir wants this disc war to alienate everybody so M$ can cash in on OnDemand via the internet. But what he doesn't know is that other companies will probably do it better than M$ and actually make more money. :rofl:

[drsiebling]

I think Amir wants this disc war to alienate everybody so M$ can cash in on OnDemand via the internet. But what he doesn't know is that other companies will probably do it better than M$ and actually make more money. :rofl:

...and then Microsoft will buy them out.

[George Bellefontaine]

Well things are going backwards in my neck of the woods. The local Walmart has stripped their Bluray and HD DVD racks bare and shipped them somewhere. Local mgr says they were not selling. And local Blockbuster, who was to have started carrying Bluray and HD DVD last November, now says their plans to carry the new format and have been put on the back burner indefinitely. Until this war is settled and prices for players and the discs themselves come down to a reasonable level, the masses are just going to stick with the standard dvd format.