HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war, the aftermath

[Charles]

Be aware the Circuit City sale on HD DVD may have been a glitch for the past few days, may want to check further before making a special trip in case it was caught and fixed.

[Hdale85]

Well the one I went to they said they were aware of the sale and would honor it.

[Chris D]

Sweet... some people got GREAT deals. Too bad there's not a CC here in Alaska.

[Race Car Driver]

Sweet... some people got GREAT deals. Too bad there's not a CC here in Alaska.

Naaa, thats ok, just go to the Best Buy up there

[Chris D]

Yeah, but they're not honoring the same deal of ANY disc 2-for-1. Just the BD's in the list. I might go pick up both POTC movies, though.

[vsteel]

Looks like sub 200 dollar HD-DVD players are a reality.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34570/118/

this should mix things up a little.

[Hdale85]

And its actually a decent player. I thought they were releaseing their own little cheapie player.

[littlesaint]

AVS shutdown their HD player forums tonight. I guess things got a little too nasty.

[Charles]

It's getting pretty hostile out there with this war. I suspect as we near Christmas things may get even crazier.

[littlesaint]

According to their explanation there were physical threats and police involvement.

I think some people need to get a proper perspective on life.

[Race Car Driver]

90,000 HDDVD players sold last weekend.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/07/90-000-hd-dvd-players-sold-in-one-weekend/

[aud19]

According to their explanation there were physical threats and police involvement.

I think some people need to get a proper perspective on life.

Over freaking optical formats?! 8O That's not just sad, it's disturbing.

[Charles]

The $99 HD DVD players seemed to really put gas on the fire.

[Chris D]

Geez... did things really get THAT out of hand? Sad.

Spidey 3 just set a new record for highest sales of any HD disc to date. Over 10% more than the previous holder.

[littlesaint]

Geez... did things really get THAT out of hand? Sad.

Spidey 3 just set a new record for highest sales of any HD disc to date. Over 10% more than the previous holder.

I really hope Blu-ray will get their hardware spec in order soon so I can start buying the format. While my XA2 does a superb job with DVD, there are certain titles I'm not buying because I'm waiting to buy a BD player (POTC, Spider-man, etc.). Netflix DVD only for now.

[Nolan B]

Different toon from sony

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...kRhRAD8SPU1BG0

NEW YORK (AP) — The head of Sony Corp., Howard Stringer, said Thursday that the Blu-ray disc format the company has developed as the successor to the DVD is in a "stalemate" with the competing HD DVD format, chiefly backed by Toshiba Corp. and Microsoft Corp.

"It's a difficult fight," said Stringer, speaking at the 92nd Street Y cultural center in Manhattan.

Toshiba has been selling its players for as low as $200 heading into the holiday season, while Blu-ray players cost more than twice as much. The HD DVD camp also scored a significant win in August, when it induced Paramount Pictures to drop most of its support for Blu-ray and put out high-definition movies exclusively on HD DVD.

"We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides," Stringer said.

At the same time, he played down the importance of the battle, saying it was mostly a matter of prestige whose format wins out in the end.

"It doesn't mean as much as all that," Stringer said. He added that he believed there was an opportunity of uniting the two camps under one format before he became CEO, and he wishes he could travel back in time to make that happen.

Stringer was more upbeat about the PlayStation 3, the game console that has so far had disappointing sales compared to the rival Nintendo Wii.

The CEO said the console is the best-selling console in Europe after a price cut three weeks ago. In the U.S., a recent price cut has doubled sales.

"We are coming back up again," Stringer said. The company aims to sell 10 million PS3s by the end of its fiscal year in March. Nintendo has already sold 13.2 million Wiis.

[impala454]

I wonder if this is an indicator that big changes are coming. I recall Sony claiming they'd already "won" and inviting Toshiba to join the BDA only a few months ago. Usually someone doesn't go from that position to downplaying the situation and saying "it's a difficult fight" unless something big is coming up. I wonder if another studio is about to withdraw from the BDA or something?

[Chris D]

Huh... could be. BD is having TWO more sales this week, for Disney and another studio. Both sales are 2-for-1's.

Funny that BD keeps having these sales, when they're already consistently on top for media sales. Why doesn't HD-DVD have these kind of sales?

[drsiebling]

Come on, Guys... that quote was taken WAAAY out of context. Here's a complete transcript (Scroll down a bit):

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

[drsiebling]

Huh... could be. BD is having TWO more sales this week, for Disney and another studio. Both sales are 2-for-1's.

Funny that BD keeps having these sales, when they're already consistently on top for media sales. Why doesn't HD-DVD have these kind of sales?

They do have sales... they just sell their A2 player at a massive loss... :lol:

[Charles]

Why doesn't HD-DVD have these kind of sales?[QUOTE]

Appears like they are using different tactics. Toshiba seems to be pushing more hardware sales selling the fact that more players=more movie sales.
BD looks to be pushing software to pull in more studio support to weaken HD DVD's movie offerings.

Both worked on me, bought another A2 week before last thanks to the Walmart sale and because of the BD BOGO, I picked up a PS3 last Sunday thanks to the Kmart 20% off coupon.

Both formats support me now.

[littlesaint]

[QUOTE=Charles]Why doesn't HD-DVD have these kind of sales?

Appears like they are using different tactics. Toshiba seems to be pushing more hardware sales selling the fact that more players=more movie sales.
BD looks to be pushing software to pull in more studio support to weaken HD DVD's movie offerings.

Both worked on me, bought another A2 week before last thanks to the Walmart sale and because of the BD BOGO, I picked up a PS3 last Sunday thanks to the Kmart 20% off coupon.

Both formats support me now.

Software sales are good for those that already own players and helps to inflate statistics, but it doesn't help put players in homes. What do I care if there is a 2-1 sale if I don't have a player? On the other side, if I'm looking to buy a new DVD player and I see I can get an HD-DVD player for the same price or even less, what's to stop me?

[Chetk]

What do I care if there is a 2-1 sale if I don't have a player?

You may not, but the studios sure do. Sales is ALL they care about (sure piracy is huge too, but that, inevitably, has an affect on sales). That's why you'll see more studios support Blu-Ray as long as software sales are higher.

And, believe it or not, that affects you too. Why buy a $198 player if you can't get the titles you want? Especially if you will eventually be buying a player that DOES play the titles you want (albeit maybe when the prices drop, since that seems to be your biggest complaint). But, it could also be why other hardware manufactures don't want to sale HD-DVD players: They're profit has already been cut off.

On the other side, if I'm looking to buy a new DVD player and I see I can get an HD-DVD player for the same price or even less, what's to stop me?

There's nothing to stop you. But that's not what the studios want to hear. You're going to buy an HD-DVD player to play DVDs? Maybe that's why HD-DVD software sales are behind 2 to 1. Or, it could be due to the fact that HD-DVD software cost more than Blu-Ray discs. Or it could be that bigger and better titles are coming out on Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD.

It boggles my mind that $201 is the deal breaker on this. ($198 for the cheapest 1080i HD-DVD player and $399 for the cheapest 1080pBlu-Ray player.) With cheaper content prices, you can make that $201 back on Blu-Ray in no time.

[Ovation]

It should not "boggle the mind" to note that the "deal breaking gap" is more than the cost of the low priced player. And the 2 for 1 sales specials are 2 BD for the price of 1, not that BD titles are outselling HD DVD titles 2 to 1. (they may well be, but that's not what the sales special is about)

I don't have either one at the moment, but the "trying it out" tipping point is certainly price sensitive for most people, including me, and when I couple that with the fact that my local video store carries each format, but in equal number of titles, I have another incentive to try out HD DVD first. Hey, I've got SACD and DVD-A on the go, so I'm sure I'll be in each format eventually. But just as DVD-A offered me a way to get what I wanted (MCH audio) even in less than optimal conditions (DD/DTS before I got a DVD-A player) and so that is the hi-res audio format I tried first (though I now have far more SACDs in my collection), HD DVD's player price advantages mean I will likely go with them first, despite any "sub-optimal conditions" that may impose on me. (I still may wait for the dual format player with all the audio bells and whistles via analogue output, but my decision to wait was made before the recent HD DVD price drops in hardware). One should not knock a "2 to 1" price difference for a player so readily.

[littlesaint]

You may not, but the studios sure do. Sales is ALL they care about (sure piracy is huge too, but that, inevitably, has an affect on sales). That's why you'll see more studios support Blu-Ray as long as software sales are higher.

And, believe it or not, that affects you too. Why buy a $198 player if you can't get the titles you want? Especially if you will eventually be buying a player that DOES play the titles you want (albeit maybe when the prices drop, since that seems to be your biggest complaint). But, it could also be why other hardware manufactures don't want to sale HD-DVD players: They're profit has already been cut off.


There's nothing to stop you. But that's not what the studios want to hear. You're going to buy an HD-DVD player to play DVDs? Maybe that's why HD-DVD software sales are behind 2 to 1. Or, it could be due to the fact that HD-DVD software cost more than Blu-Ray discs. Or it could be that bigger and better titles are coming out on Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD.

It boggles my mind that $201 is the deal breaker on this. ($198 for the cheapest 1080i HD-DVD player and $399 for the cheapest 1080pBlu-Ray player.) With cheaper content prices, you can make that $201 back on Blu-Ray in no time.

I don't even know where to begin. :rofl:

[Chetk]

I don't even know where to begin. :rofl:

Go ahead. Laugh it up. I'm going home to watch Cars and Ratatouille and the Spidey trilogy in uncompressed HD audio. I just got my Integra DTC-9.8 in yesterday and all I'm missing is an HDMI cable.

I've thought about laughing it up at other people's posts here in the past, but I decided to use facts instead.

Ovation, the 2 to 1 I was referring to was software sold numbers. Not prices.

[impala454]

The sales of the players boost the sales of the media, not the other way around. Think about it for a minute, you sell 500 PooPooDVDs, are you selling 5 PooPooDVDs each to 100 people who have PooPooDVD players, or 20 PooPooDVDs each to 25 people who have the players? Which is more profitable in the long run, given that your business is releasing new PooPooDVDs? It should be pretty obvious.

The PS3 should not count at all as a player in any statistics, nor should discs included with it. People weren't camping in line for the PS3 days before release because they wanted Blu Ray. They wanted a game machine. However, the XBox 360 Addon does count. People who purchased it did so because they specifically wanted HD-DVD.

Just my $0.02

[Hdale85]

I agree with the PS3 thing. I know plenty of people with PS3's that don't use them for movie play back. Gaming consoles are not optimal for that. They are noisy and just not as good as a nice stand alone player.

[Kevin D]

It boggles my mind that $201 is the deal breaker on this. ($198 for the cheapest 1080i HD-DVD player and $399 for the cheapest 1080pBlu-Ray player.) With cheaper content prices, you can make that $201 back on Blu-Ray in no time.

Well in my case, it was $99 versus $399. If Walmart didn't have the sale, I wouldn't have any player yet. Quite honestly, until they start having ~$18 movies and some 2 for $15 sales I probably won't be buying much software either.

We're dealing with a consumer base that doesn't really want/need either format, especially when they are competing. Under $100 seems like a magic number for consumers to say why not.

Kevin D.

[Ovation]

Ovation, the 2 to 1 I was referring to was software sold numbers. Not prices.

That's fine. But player prices are still not something to neglect. And it was Wal-Mart, not Toshiba, that decided to go to such a low price (albeit for just one day).

With identical PQ and, essentially, audio quality (depends on the available sound formats per disc), there is little to choose between the formats themselves. So it comes down to player price, player performance, features, availability of software (and software prices).

So far, HD DVD leads in player price, seems equal in performance and features, equality in software is locally, regionally dependent (around here it is roughly the same) and behind in software prices (though not by a lot in the stores I've been to around here--perhaps more so in the US). It is region free (a plus for European film lovers like me), so that is another point in its favour.

Ultimately, while one format "winning" would simplify things a bit, I see no reason to favour one over the other on its own merits, but rather on secondary details (price being most important). And so, HD DVD currently has a leg up as far as which one to try first, in my opinion.

[Chris D]

The PS3 should not count at all as a player in any statistics, nor should discs included with it. People weren't camping in line for the PS3 days before release because they wanted Blu Ray. They wanted a game machine. However, the XBox 360 Addon does count. People who purchased it did so because they specifically wanted HD-DVD.

Nope... I bought my PS3 right away for Blu-Ray. The fact that it also plays games is just a bonus for me.

Ask around, I'm not the only one.

[George Bellefontaine]

C'mon, Samsung, hurry up and release that high end dual player at a decent price and bring peace to the world for Christmas.

Seriously, until there is a reasonably priced dual player, this format war is going nowehere for either Sony or Toshiba... and certianly not for the poor confused consumer. If that Sammy is a good one and below $1K, I will likely be snapping it up so I can start enjoying hi-def movies on my 1080p projector. And frankly, I could care less whether the movie is Bluray or HD Dvd

[bmowis]

The PS3 should not count at all as a player in any statistics, nor should discs included with it. People weren't camping in line for the PS3 days before release because they wanted Blu Ray. They wanted a game machine. However, the XBox 360 Addon does count. People who purchased it did so because they specifically wanted HD-DVD.

Nope... I bought my PS3 right away for Blu-Ray. The fact that it also plays games is just a bonus for me.

Ask around, I'm not the only one.

Yeah, I gotta go with Chris on this one...how can you presume to know the minds of all PS3 consumers? You make it sound like PS3's ability to play Blu-Ray out of the box was an accident.

[Chetk]

And frankly, I could care less whether the movie is Bluray or HD Dvd

You will when you find out that encodes are being limited to the smallest common limitation of 30 GBs and most movies don't come out with lossless audio. Just take a look at what Warner is releasing. Then, compare it to what BD-only studios are releasing and compare that, yet again, to what HD-DVD only studios are releasing. :cry:

[Chetk]

Yeah, I gotta go with Chris on this one...how can you presume to know the minds of all PS3 consumers? You make it sound like PS3's ability to play Blu-Ray out of the box was an accident.

You gotta give it to impala454. It sounds like he actually believes what he's saying. :rofl:

Anybody with real common sense knows that the PS3 has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that BD software sales are spanking HD-DVD's software sales, even with the hardware costing over twice as much.

[George Bellefontaine]

You will when you find out that encodes are being limited to the smallest common limitation of 30 GBs and most movies don't come out with lossless audio. Just take a look at what Warner is releasing. Then, compare it to what BD-only studios are releasing and compare that, yet again, to what HD-DVD only studios are releasing. :cry:

No I won't. :roll:

[Chetk]

I just heard lossless audio on my system for the first time this week and I have to tell you, lossless audio is the ONLY way to go. If we're going to have a "next-generation" format, why only limit ourselves to a lossy audio format? Let's go all out and demand the best audio formats. Anything less than lossless is...well...crippled.

For a guy with a 1080p projector, I would expect you to expect nothing less than the best.

I mean, if we're just going to stick with Dolby Digital and non-HD DTS, then why not just stick to SD DVD? Obviously, I know the answer is in the picture quality, but why not include audio as well. The capability is there.

[George Bellefontaine]

Obviously, I know the answer is in the picture quality, but why not include audio as well. The capability is there.

Yes, the answer is picture quality, and that's the reason I now own a 1080p projector.

When I eventually get a dual player I won't be renting or buying one format over the other because one has more of this and less of that, I will be choosing the format that has the movie I want to see.

I realize your passion for the Bluray format, Chetk, but believe me, after you been around the block as often as I have, just waking up each morning is something to be much more passionate about.

[Ovation]

Even if we leave aside all the arguments about audio perception and whether one can tell a lossless from a lossy soundtrack (an argument only carried out by some serious enthusiasts--not all of them--and they hardly represent a blip on the radar compared to the average consumer), the fact remains that the vast majority of HTs are not properly set up to take advantage of vanilla DD/DTS, never mind the advanced audio codecs. So while such distinctions may matter to a few, it is more important for the manufacturers to put out a product (however perfectible it may remain) that emphasizes that which is immediately evident (the better picture quality) rather than stressing an element (better audio quality) that is likely to be unnoticed by the vast majority of 128kbps (at best) mp3 listeners.

I was in the dual format camp (and may yet remain there) for players until the recent price drop in HD DVD. If it remains that way until early 08, then I'll likely go HD DVD first and get Blu-Ray later.

[impala454]

You gotta give it to impala454. It sounds like he actually believes what he's saying. :rofl:

Anybody with real common sense knows that the PS3 has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that BD software sales are spanking HD-DVD's software sales, even with the hardware costing over twice as much.

So apparently since I have no common sense and you do, you can answer me this:

If PS3s are so widely used for Blu Ray movies, why did one million PS3s get sold four months before one million BDs were sold? Yeah those new PS3 owners sure were scoopin up the BDs in droves weren't they? There wasn't even one disc sold per PS3!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Sales_and_production_costs

On January 7, 2007, Sony met its goal of shipping 1 million units to North America

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/23/blu-ray-disc-one-million-served/

[April 23, 2007] ... sales of Blu-ray Discs reaching more than one million sold since the format launched less than a year ago

I can't seem to find the total number of BDs sold to date, but according to wikipedia there has been 5.59 million PS3s sold worldwide (1.75 US) as of September 30th. I'd be interested to see if the number of BDs sold is even close. If I was a studio exec trying to decide if a PS3 owner should be considered a BD consumer, I'd expect to see at least one disc per player sold.

I realize that people who post on HT forums probably did purchase the PS3 with BD in mind, but that's not the norm.

[Chetk]

What does the number of PS3's sold have anything to do with the number of software titles sold? The two have nothing to do with each other.

You can talk attach rates all you want. Studios don't give a rip. They want titles sold, and so far, Blu-Ray has been out-selling HD-DVD discs two to one. Period. When you can tell me how this works in HD-DVD's favor, let me know.

Ovation, are you suggesting that the content providers should cater to the least common denotonator? The beauty of Blu-Ray is that it has enough room to include BOTH a DD track and an lossless track and still have room for more. When studios only include lossy tracks, they're leaving out the high-end audience. When studios include both, they cater to both. I'd rather support a format that caters to the high-end consumers AND STILL WORKS for the lower-end consumers. Why invest in HD (video or audio) at all if we're just going to expect the content creators to give us stuff that caters to low-end consumers?

I am continually amazed at the number of people who want HD, but don't want the best possible HD. Maybe it's because they're trying to justify their purchase and don't want their format to die.

[PewterTA]

Uhmmm I have HD-DVDs that have Lossless and DD track on it at the same time... So it's not like the format can't do it. Granted the extras are on a separate disc...but that doesn't bother me at all for the once MAYBE twice I ever use that disc.

As far as the catering to everyone...that's actually where Blu-Ray fails. See the newest forms of BD-Java have issues with some older players that people bought when first out. This is definitely not "looking out" for the little/older Blu-Ray guy that bought his player when it first came out. Now granted, through some players firmware updates can correct this, but not all.

On the other hand, HD-DVD did it right from the start and made standards for everything so that the same problem wouldn't arise.

Also, if Blu-Ray cared about it's "low-end" consumers, their players wouldn't be at the $400+ mark, they'd be working towards the $199 flavor that "most" people will purchase at. I have yet to see that.

Now I user both formats and I can say IMHO that neither format has much of anything the other can't do. I think both have almost identical video and audio quality. The extra features I think currently go to HD, but Blu-Ray is pretty darn close.

It's really a matter of a '9' vs. a '10' for any category on either format.

I'm actually thinking that neither HD NOR Blu-Ray will be around for any length of time once it becomes increasingly easier to stream the media directly into the home...

It's just a shame that the "studios" decided to screw over all their consumers by not making a single format. WE are the only ones it effects.

I have both formats and don't care about the format, just care that I get to watch the movie I want.

[Hdale85]

5.59 Million PS3's sold and how many of those were bought to be used for Blu Ray? I'd say maybe 1.5-2 mill? The PS3 is a gaming console. Most people that own it are under 18 years of age and their parents bought it for them. And chances are they are played on SD tv's or the kids just don't care at all about blu ray. If your going to deny this because a few people on AVS and HT Guide have PS3's solely for Blu Ray which makes up a TINY percent of the total PS3's sold your just fooling your self.

[George Bellefontaine]

I have both formats and don't care about the format, just care that I get to watch the movie I want.

It'll be the same for me when I go the dual player route. :T

[aud19]

You gotta give it to impala454. It sounds like he actually believes what he's saying. :rofl:

It sounds to me like you're both more like different sides of the same coin than you'd care to admit. Let's ALL try to keep things objectionable, reasonable and "above the belt" so to speak.