Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream
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some of my sith padawans are contemplating building at least one set for the group.
CNC'd baffles are a of great interest to them.
this information is quite timely.DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
Supreme Director of Operations, EVIL TWIN
"A Royal Guardsman never seeks special privileges, ever. His entire goal in life is to serve our Dark Master, ET, and the New Order he created."- Bottom
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I'd be willing to participate in a front baffle group buy if there was enough interest. It would save me a lot of time and I'm sure a CNC machine or Steve could be much more accurate than I.
Over sizing the baffle by 1/16" all around is a great suggestion.- Bottom
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Numbers would certainly have to be crunched to provide an answer to that question ...... but it would certainly not be on the low end of the scale, sorry.
Several things factor into that cost .... What materials are used, those of you that have built them can jump in to keep me straight here, but I believe not everyone used the lbl and BB for their construction. Either way if you use all lbl, it can run upwards of $400 a sheet for 3/4". This is where the thought of doing multiple sets pays off. You place an order for multiple sheets you can save on shipping and might also get a price break on the material. Also, if you get these CNC'd, setting this up and running multiple sets at one time, reduces the price considerably as well. As with most building projects it's the setup time to do the task that kills you. When you're looking at ~$100/hr for CNC time you want to be as efficient as possible.
If you skip doing CNC you end up spending more time doing it by hand and lose some accuracy in the finished product, most of us are not quite that good well maybe Ron and Bob and a few others :B but, you have to look at the trade off's.
Mike can more than likely give you a quicker answer since he has just gone through this with his project and has a fabrication system set in place already. Though I will look into it as well.
Steve- Bottom
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Here where I live I had to specially import lbl especially and I could not justify the cost.
If I recall correctly did I use bb for the baffel and a sanwitch of bb and mdf for the side and back. Bb for internal bracing.
However, I would have used lbl if it had been accessable - so if you get a decent price with a group by I would go for lbl.
But maybe lbl is like super cheep down in Singapore where Mike is?-TEK
Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...
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Numbers would certainly have to be crunched to provide an answer to that question ...... but it would certainly not be on the low end of the scale, sorry.
Several things factor into that cost .... What materials are used, those of you that have built them can jump in to keep me straight here, but I believe not everyone used the lbl and BB for their construction. Either way if you use all lbl, it can run upwards of $400 a sheet for 3/4". This is where the thought of doing multiple sets pays off. You place an order for multiple sheets you can save on shipping and might also get a price break on the material. Also, if you get these CNC'd, setting this up and running multiple sets at one time, reduces the price considerably as well. As with most building projects it's the setup time to do the task that kills you. When you're looking at ~$100/hr for CNC time you want to be as efficient as possible.
If you skip doing CNC you end up spending more time doing it by hand and lose some accuracy in the finished product, most of us are not quite that good well maybe Ron and Bob and a few others :B but, you have to look at the trade off's.
Mike can more than likely give you a quicker answer since he has just gone through this with his project and has a fabrication system set in place already. Though I will look into it as well.
Steve- Bottom
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LBL is Laminated Bamboo Lumber. I used 4 layers of bamboo boards from http://www.woodworkerssource.com/sho...ry/Bamboo.html Bamboo ply is probably less expensive, but this shows how quickly the cost will build up.- Bottom
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Looking back over my notes we spent:$150 to tooling alone for the CNC. But like I said the dollar is 30% cheaper now..
If you are considering these guys I would budget 5 grand ($5500 adjusted for inflation).
Here was my breakdown:
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I thought we were just talking about getting the front panel constructed, all the rest of those costs make sense to me, with the exception of the veneer, which I kinda think I don't want. Probably just sanded, stained/finished/polished.
I thought what was being suggested was just the front panel would be CNC'd and laminated and faceted and then shipped [in pairs].
The rest of it would be up to me to get.
Side point : where do you even find the wavecor woofers?- Bottom
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Wavecor's website lists distributors. I got mine from Solen in Canada. They were significantly less expensive than the US distributor. Add that to Solen generally keeping a good stock...
I think Ben's estimate of current cost is pretty close. You might save a few hundred on the crossover buying from hificollective.co.uk- Bottom
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Okay other then tooling, we got this out of 1-4'X8' sheet of 3/4" LBL at a discounted $200.0 CA a sheet. 1-4' x 8' sheet does the outer 2 layers for 2 baffles.
So if you do the 1 1/2" of the outer front baffle out of LBL and 1 1/2" inner front baffle out of BB that is 1 4' x 8' sheet of lbl and 2 sheets of 5' x 5' of BB (our BB came this way at $55 a sheet). If the whole front baffle is LBL then 2- 4' x 8' sheets. at a minimum of $200. per sheet. Add bits $100. and not layout but tool path design time? I sent 2 baffles to Florida from Wpg. Man. to BigJim but can't remember the cost but he would know our total discounted cost as we gave him the 4 way spit cost for to baffles plus shipping.
I think Mike's material cost would be best and shipping the worst, and if he can source 1 1/2" boards that are not proportionally double the 3/4" we sourced you could do 2 baffle in one sheet cutting machining time a lot. So if Mike glued 2 layers of 1 1/2" baffles together for final facet cut and shipped at least 6 sets I would put then at very minimum, (but definitely not speaking for him!) at min of $600 to north of $800. :roll::roll:
And if I had my son here for a month we would crank out a Sh@@@ load for all of you, hum.- Bottom
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Dar,
Maybe I'm not thinking about it right, but doesn't each pair of front baffles only require a 1/2 a 4'x8' sheet of BB and 1/2 a 4'x8' sheet for LBL? If so that would cut down on material cost a bit, but I'm guessing tooling/machine time/shipping are probably the largest portion of the cost anyway.- Bottom
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Ardent front Baffle is a full 3" we made ours from 4 layers of 3/4" material. You need that thickness for the facet angle cuts and our Master believes in rigidity for a uncompromising launch pad for the drivers! You could make the baffle out of 1 1/2" sheets only 2 layer and yes that would cut down machine time.
The other thing to consider is it's not modeling the cabinets in say Solid Works to get everything perfect (although Ben, I and Jon for his first Ardents spent a lot of time designing), it's the CNC operator that needs to design tool path, machine speed for material, bit speed, clamping and organization of material handling. After you do a few it gets fast but you need time to develop the machining process. The other huge factor is how are you going to cut these facets if you choose to CNC them then that is a lot of material to shave and lots of machine time. We chose to take the built up baffle to a guy with a large panel saw that
did it like cutting butter fast and perfect and for the 32 cuts he made it was well worth it but did add cost to pay for his time. Now you could get your baffle without this final facet cutting step and do as the other skillful hand built builder did, cut it your self. I think a cheap estimate is $60. an hour for tool path design and machine time!
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It seems like MikesmCNC guy did the facet as well.
I get the impression that the facet cut is one of the main reason people want a pre-cut baffel...
I also noted that someone mentioned not veneering them (and not painting?). If so, a solution that mixed lbl and bb will probably not give the wanted result as I assume that the bb will be visible.-TEK
Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...
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This depends on volume, for a small run I'd spitball at least $1000/set for LBL/BB. Shipping from Manitoba to California was almost ~$250 for a pallet (albeit with mostly complete boxes) iirc. Even if you sub out for cheaper materials the shipping will be a big component.
Looking back over my notes we spent:$150 to tooling alone for the CNC. But like I said the dollar is 30% cheaper now..
If you are considering these guys I would budget 5 grand ($5500 adjusted for inflation).
Here was my breakdown:
Hmm, I thought that the rule of DIY cost estimation was that the only cost is the cost of the drivers, and mabye the crossover components:frypan:
All other cost is of course stuff you just have laying around and that otherwise would go to waste, or an investment in tools or some future project:beer:-TEK
Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...
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Funny, TEK. That's an easy attitude to take when building small cabinets in MDF. I know I generally do.
For these I spent more on veneer than I had in total on any previous project. I ended up going back and forth between "this cost is getting out of hand" and "what's another hundred dollars?" Thankfully my girlfriend kept me from going cheap by regularly reminding me that this project deserves the best.- Bottom
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it is my philosophy, shared by my other local cohorts interested in a 'shared' set of Ardents, that this be considered an 'End Game' project.
as such, only LBL, (or possibly the laminated Northern Rock Maple Pin Block used on the Kurosawa Koncept?), would be a reasonable consideration for a CNC'd front baffle material.
if one is to accept the cost of CNC manufacturing for its guaranteed accuracy, skimping on the material is counterproductive not only to the process itself, but also the rigidity of the baffle, which is of paramount importance.- Bottom
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Ardent front Baffle is a full 3" we made ours from 4 layers of 3/4" material. You need that thickness for the facet angle cuts and our Master believes in rigidity for a uncompromising launch pad for the drivers! You could make the baffle out of 1 1/2" sheets only 2 layer and yes that would cut down machine time.
The other thing to consider is it's not modeling the cabinets in say Solid Works to get everything perfect (although Ben, I and Jon for his first Ardents spent a lot of time designing), it's the CNC operator that needs to design tool path, machine speed for material, bit speed, clamping and organization of material handling. After you do a few it gets fast but you need time to develop the machining process. The other huge factor is how are you going to cut these facets if you choose to CNC them then that is a lot of material to shave and lots of machine time. We chose to take the built up baffle to a guy with a large panel saw that
did it like cutting butter fast and perfect and for the 32 cuts he made it was well worth it but did add cost to pay for his time. Now you could get your baffle without this final facet cutting step and do as the other skillful hand built builder did, cut it your self. I think a cheap estimate is $60. an hour for tool path design and machine time!
- Bottom
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it is my philosophy, shared by my other local cohorts interested in a 'shared' set of Ardents, that this be considered an 'End Game' project.
as such, only LBL, (or possibly the laminated Northern Rock Maple Pin Block used on the Kurosawa Koncept?), would be a reasonable consideration for a CNC'd front baffle material.
if one is to accept the cost of CNC manufacturing for its guaranteed accuracy, skimping on the material is counterproductive not only to the process itself, but also the rigidity of the baffle, which is of paramount importance.
My vote would be on the Rock Maple as well.- Bottom
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Funny, TEK. That's an easy attitude to take when building small cabinets in MDF. I know I generally do.
For these I spent more on veneer than I had in total on any previous project. I ended up going back and forth between "this cost is getting out of hand" and "what's another hundred dollars?" Thankfully my girlfriend kept me from going cheap by regularly reminding me that this project deserves the best.
That is definitely a girlfriend you should listen to, and an attitude I most heartily endorse.
In for a dime, in for a dollar...
On this path lies the true power of the Dark Side...DFAL
Dark Force Acoustic Labs
A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries- Bottom
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You know Darrell that's given me an idea ...... if the group wanted to pitch in and purchase say one of these which I'd be "willing" to store at my place ....... we could chop these things out all day long.
You better start that calculator to figure out how mutch it will be pr. participant ;-)-TEK
Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...
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Isn't that a sweet toy ..... that would take up my entire garage. If your gonna dream, may as well go all the way! I think even used one of those bad boys is way out of my range.- Bottom
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I have been wondering how I will accomplish the "final" cabinet build for my Ardents. Considering all of the suggestions & procedures from the talented people on this forum I concluded That the easiest way for me is to build a metal frame that would clamp to the baffle. The frame would act as a guide for something like a power plane. The frame would probably have a few iterations until I have something that worked well.
If it works well, would it not be cheaper to ship the frame for others to use rather than shipping the baffle?
Just a thought? Wayne- Bottom
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Wayne, that sounds like it could be a good idea. I wondered if a frame for something like a router planing sled moving on a metal frame as a guide for the router could be used which would just leave sanding left to do.
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Unless the top and bottom bevels (facets) are the same size you would need to re locate the jig to a shorter cut on the bottom facet. Could be done, but you'll need a left and right jig, then a top / face jig too. Don't rethink the wheel.
With all due respect to the grand thinkers on this thread, Bob Ellis already has come up with the easiest way to achieve the cut facets. Mark your pencil lines on the baffle block, make a rough cut with whatever saw your comfortable with, then remove the remaining material with a power planer. Get close to your lines then finish with a long hand sanding block. (this will keep the facets flat) You'll need extra sharp blades and let them cool as you work the material down. It won't take that long and it will make a nice pile of shavings for your guinea pig or hamster.
You'll need to double up on hearing protection and the neighborhood dogs will hate you. As an old professional termite this is the easiest way. It's not that difficult to master the power plane, a few swipes and you've got it. Keep the cuts shallow and make many passes. Start at the pointy end and work towards the wide end of the facet.
Wayman, trust in Bob's way. It's easy peasy!
RonArdent TS- Bottom
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Unless the top and bottom bevels (facets) are the same size you would need to re locate the jig to a shorter cut on the bottom facet. Could be done, but you'll need a left and right jig, then a top / face jig too. Don't rethink the wheel.
With all due respect to the grand thinkers on this thread, Bob Ellis already has come up with the easiest way to achieve the cut facets. Mark your pencil lines on the baffle block, make a rough cut with whatever saw your comfortable with, then remove the remaining material with a power planer. Get close to your lines then finish with a long hand sanding block. (this will keep the facets flat) You'll need extra sharp blades and let them cool as you work the material down. It won't take that long and it will make a nice pile of shavings for your guinea pig or hamster.
You'll need to double up on hearing protection and the neighborhood dogs will hate you. As an old professional termite this is the easiest way. It's not that difficult to master the power plane, a few swipes and you've got it. Keep the cuts shallow and make many passes. Start at the pointy end and work towards the wide end of the facet.
Wayman, trust in Bob's way. It's easy peasy!
Ron- Bottom
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How well does LBL take a hand plane? I recently acquired a LV Low Angle Jack. It's my first hand plane some I'm still learning how to use it, but I've wondered if I could find a use for it on this build.- Bottom
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The little that I have planed has not been too bad. I think with most cutting processes, have the blade good and sharp and it should work pretty well.- Bottom
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Question for Jon i guess,
Have you ever considered using Dayton Audio RSS210HF for Ardents ?
Measurements from Hobby Hifi attached:
Looking at them, they have very similar TS parameters, both have aluminium cone, and model very similar (volume differs by 5-10 liters depending on what you want to achieve and in what type of cabinet). Daytons are easier to get in US, cheaper and by the looks of it - it wouldn't cost you much of a performance, if any. Wavecor does look a bit sexier with smaller dust-cap and shallower cone.- Bottom
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I thought occasionally about it, I have one or two on hand, but in my experience the actual sensitivity seemed even lower, the Qts is rather high, and the Sd is somewhat less. Of course, it does win out on price.
But I'm sure it could be used successfully with some alteration of the design. My recollection is that it also had somewhat more issues with the breakup mode Q.
Now, here's a question to pose for people- given the wood working challenges of the Ardent system, I think in most cases that is often a bigger barrier to entry than the component costs.
One of the idea's I've been kicking around with Steve is an Ardent derived system using lower cost drivers (the RIGHT lower cost drivers, which makes it tricky)... but it's hard to imagine simplifying the wood working, unless we approach it as a two box system, with a midrange/tweeter box on top of a more straightforward woofer cabinet. (Steve has some really cool drawings of what he calls the Ardent S, which is derived from some Wilson Audio ideas to my eye, but that's DEFINITELY NOT easier to build than the existing Ardent concept.
So, considering the target to keep distortion low and a similar output and response capability, one of the ideas has been pairing either the SW223's or the RS210HF with the Zaph ZA14 (which makes an excellent low distortion midrange- IMO, not so great as a mid woofer) and something like the venerable RS28a or RS28F.
But you've still got to build a crossover for it, and there is no magic to make a good low cost crossover- even with the most careful parts selection, and cutting a few corners, we're still talking some real money.
But we might undertake this... or any aspiring designers out there are welcome to take the idea and see what they can do with it! :B
BTW< the forum software does compress and downgrade images above a certain side, which is why I use three different external services for most of my image hosting, mostly Flickr of late, because it's design for serious photography and is the only one I've found besides my Virtual Avenue account that doesn't compress or down Rez the images.the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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I'm also getting ready to attempt the Wavecor Ardents in their original form. As a preparation I've been going through the many threads and gathering pics, tips and descriptions into a OneNote notebook. I've separated out the box drawings, box build tips, crossover topics, driver topics etc. At one point I'll try to make this available for download too, but that'll take some more time to both gather the data and clean it up nice enough.... What I can say is that after going through the threads and seeing the many ways these boxes can be done it does not feel as intimidating anymore
I've also started to redraw the box in Fusion 360. Few purposes with that
* teach myself the Fusion
* it has very easy ability to switch between imperial and metric
* it has a 2d sketch -> 3D model driven logic
* one can create "project parameters" for material thickness for example
So in theory if done correct one can change these material parameters for BB or Bamboo and the whole 3D model adapts accordingly.....
I'm some way away from being able to do the Ardent box like that but a simple rectangular 2way box did work and scale nicely if I tried 18mm versus 22mm versus 29mm... or change driver holes and flange cuts via 2D source drawing etc.
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Speaking of value Ardents, I had the following thoughts, as I have come into possession of the mids from Kevin M for a very reasonable price:
Tweeter: SB Acoustics SB 19 (or SB 26 STAC as I have 2)
Mid: Tang Band W4-1337
Woofer: Not sure yet!
I will be using the TBs in a quick full range setup to test my measurement and design skills first, then later move on to something like this.- Bottom
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Just a bit of follow up on this topic, growing down in price the Ardent concept-
This is the measured response from one of my ZA14's...
It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that between 500Hz and 2500Hz these little guys rock, with both HD2 and HD3 about 60dB down - this is at 2.83VRMS drive. These have enough Sd that you don't have to worry about how they'll handle the lower part of the midrange, and at $39.99, you absolutely have no business complaining about the price. Just stay away from the resonant amplification points of distortion products- would suggest a 2200Hz crossover, either my "patented" LR3 (no such thing according to Linkwitz, it takes a certain time offset to make it work) (same as used in Wavecor Ardent and NatalieP and Modula MT)the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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