Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Fdas]

Not too many people would buy a $5,000 kit speaker. Just the weight shipping these beasts would be cost prohibitive. Each one weighs in over 100 Lbs.
Thanks for the kind thoughts thou.
Part of the Allure is to challenge one's skills and become even better at woodworking. Jon's already reached the pinnacle of sparks and wires.
Ron

Respectfully, the skill in woodworking to build these is significantly more prohibitive than the cost to ship is. Honestly the assembly of flat packed but pre-laminated pieces, + assembled crossovers and drivers would not sell like hotcakes, but I believe there is a market for something like that.

I dont' have the money to build or buy these right now, but I do wish there was some place I could go to wistfully imagine pushing 'order' for a pair of them.

Btw, would something like an XPA-2 drive these speakers adequately?

[BobEllis]

The XPA-2 certainly has the power you'd want. I haven't heard it, but suspect that to get the best out of the Ardents you can go to more refined electronics.

The best amp I've heard with mine so far is a Pass Aleph-J clone. It doesn't have enough power at 30W to really get loud, but for most listening is plenty. At the moment running single ended with a Cambridge 851D (Yes, balanced connections are in the works). I've also used (in descending preference order) Pass/Thagard A75 (raised rails to ~150W, 15W class A), DIYAudio Honey Badger, Hafler DH-500 (in need of a re-cap), Leach Amp (based on V4.5 with modern devices, 10 output devices) an LM3886 amp and a 15W Dayton T-amp. Each amp is readily distinguishable. I haven't yet reached a level that the differences are miniscule. The Aleph J responded well to replacing the feedback capacitor. I went from a Wima MKS to a Dayton MKP (the biggest I could fit) and cleaned up the slight sibilance and mush on the top end.

I've been a speakers first and didn't believe there was much difference with electronics guy before Ardents. You need speakers capable of resolving the difference in electronics, but I've been quite surprised how much difference electronics can make at this level of speaker. With Seas Excel based speakers there was a subtle difference between Leach and Honey Badger. Now it's not subtle. Of course, I didn't use good caps in the Seas, maybe I should upgrade those. Similarly, there is an easily recognizable difference in quality between the DAC in my OPPO BDP-103, a Schiit Modi MB and the Cambridge 851D.

[flamethrower1]

Respectfully, the skill in woodworking to build these is significantly more prohibitive than the cost to ship is. Honestly the assembly of flat packed but pre-laminated pieces, + assembled crossovers and drivers would not sell like hotcakes, but I believe there is a market for something like that.

I dont' have the money to build or buy these right now, but I do wish there was some place I could go to wistfully imagine pushing 'order' for a pair of them.

Btw, would something like an XPA-2 drive these speakers adequately?

Check the pawn shop forum,looks like a good deal could be had there on the components anyway

[Renron]

Bob,
I've got mid priced caps (Obbligato Gold) in the XO for my Seas drivers and I could hear the difference easily between amplifiers. I"ve bought and sold, Adcom / Acurus / Hafler / Conrad Johnson / Sony / Carver. Not listed in any preferential order. I've built a T-Amp / Pass F5 / Honey Badger.

I prefer the Pass F5 organic sound but wish it had the Honey Badger's low end Grunt and raw power. I'm going to upgrade some caps on the HB to try to lessen the clinical sound.
Bob, I'll shoot you a PM about this.
Ron
Ron

[Fdas]

Check the pawn shop forum,looks like a good deal could be had there on the components anyway

I feel like buying the components would be the thing you do after you already know you have the cabinets handled. So, I'll keep my eyes on that section of the forum, but buying components without a proper box to put them in feels like putting the cart before the horse!

[wkhanna]

..... Time to get cranking on a proper switch without a pot......

like one of THESE?


edit: wait.....you said "no pot"?

there you go, messing with us MechE's again....

[BobEllis]

Hey Bill,

I'm just thinking a couple of small signal relays to switch the source from Oppo to Cambridge when I turn the Cambridge power on. It has a 12V trigger output, so with a wall wart and a few other parts in a utility box it should come together easily. A whole lot cheaper than creating a remote volume control that will handle 7.1 channels and switch to the good DAC for music or buying a surround processor that doesn't mess with analog signals.

BTW, I'm sort of a MechE, too. Undergrad was Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering (MechE who only cares about mild steel). What sparks and wires knowledge I have is self taught.

[flamethrower1]

I feel like buying the components would be the thing you do after you already know you have the cabinets handled. So, I'll keep my eyes on that section of the forum, but buying components without a proper box to put them in feels like putting the cart before the horse!

With all do respect, I would not even start a cabinet build until I had the components in my hands.
To do otherwise will just lead to some oh s**ts and do overs, guaranteed.

[BobEllis]

The other thing that buying components first does for you is keeps you motivated to keep going. I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't spent the money on the drivers I'd have packed it in after one of my many cabinet building setbacks.

[flamethrower1]

The other thing that buying components first does for you is keeps you motivated to keep going. I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't spent the money on the drivers I'd have packed it in after one of my many cabinet building setbacks.

So very true

[wkhanna]

i would never start a cabinet build without the intended driver in hand to confirm the fit in the baffle.
jmho, ymmv

[TEK]

I usually (eh, that means in my 5 builds) order the drivers when I start the project. Both because I want to have the drivers to test fit them into the baffel, but also because drivers may no longer be available, sold out and so on.
So I order the drivers and then start working on the box'es.

[wkhanna]

.... drivers may no longer be available, sold out and so on.
So I order the drivers and then start working on the box'es.

+ one on that :T

[Fdas]

That makes sense, but but the crossover should fit sure wait until cab is done. In any case I'll just be happy if I can finish my statement monitors.

[TEK]

It's a good idea to plan crossover placement throughly before building them.
It was a bit tighter to grt the Ardents crossover in position than what I had forseen...

[Renron]

It's a good idea to plan crossover placement throughly before building them.
It was a bit tighter to grt the Ardents crossover in position than what I had forseen...

UNDERSTATEMENT of the Week!
Speakers (drivers) before anything else. I found out the hard way. I ordered 4 woofers (they're really subwoofers) for my build, they sent me 3 and said "Sorry, they're out of production and we can no longer order any". Jon was a true "Good guy in a white hat" and sold one of his "extra" drivers to me. I have the 01s. Yes, we all have extra drivers.
Buy the drivers First, then start working on the cabinets. Meanwhile letting funds rebuild to pay for XO components. Capacitors are always a nice Birthday or Christmas present. My family thinks I'm nuts.:??
Tally Ho!

Ron

[Fdas]

Well I can't hope to build these cabinets, so I'll stay away from purchasing these components. 😉

[Evil Twin]

It seems from what is being discussed that their might be a valid reason to consider flat packs or partially assembled cabinet pieces- front panels?

[wkhanna]

pre-fabricated front panels alone would, in my humble estimation, allow many padowans not yet in possession of some of the upper level powers of the Dark Force to nonetheless peruse a project of this magnitude.

[Renron]

Fdas,
If you tell us where (not street, but city) you live, one of us may just invite you over for a speaker building party someday. Or at least help you get started.
In some towns colleges offer wood working classes at night, other places have wood shops that allow you to rent their tools after signing the proper legal waiver. I believe that's how the first 6 set of these speakers came into existence. Dar47 / Benthe8track did you guys build 6 "flat packs"?
Ron

[Fdas]

I'm in Los Angeles. It isn't a lack of access to the tools, it's a serious lack of skill.

I could potentially contribute to the project by offering to get PCBs manufactured at cost. I assume most crossovers would be double or single sided and so would be fairly cheap if someone laid them out and gave me the gerber files. I don't know if any of you guys would be interested in something like that, which adds to the cost of the build, but maybe doesn't add anything else over the way you're currently doing it.

[Zvu]

Is there any tutorial on how to make this kind of front baffle ?

Thanks

[wkhanna]

if you scan thru the current build threads you will find they were fabricated a few different ways......

some on table saws with homemade jigs, some with circular saws & some were cut by hand with regular old ripping saws, iirc....

[BobEllis]

And my favorite - power plane.

Looks like the speaker building party is at Ron's. I'd make the trip for finishing lessons. ;x(

[dar47]

Well I was wondering when someone was going to ask for the easy button 8O

Fdas it is okay to scratch your head and wonder how this can be done when you have limited or no tools or woodworking skills. The first run was done all CNC, 6 completed cabs and 2 baffles ready for cabinets. notice 2 assembled baffles on the left, they were shipped to a member to do his own cabs!





We did this to facilitate a 3 different time crunches, 1. Ben was leaving town, 2. Poor Jon had no time and 3. we used a unique facility in our city that allowed membership and access to some very nice machines by monthly cost. Ben had the CNC skills and I had the layout and woodworking experience. I mentioned in the first few pages of our build that many cabs could be done like this if members were local to each other. The other way is have a cabinet maker make the cabinet parts for flat pack to be assembled and finished. The individual baffle layers could be made then assemble and facets cut and these could then be shipped with the cabinet parts all flat packed ready for final ensemble, veneering and finish. Now if you had a bulk buy going, the cabinet maker would just add material and labor cost for each buying member and the different shipping cost. If you are on your own you could give the cabinet guy all files needed and have him make then to whatever end you want, just flat pack, assembled, or fully finished ready for drivers and xovers.

Now because we have such skilled guys here they went at them selves with there own skills, tools and time lines. If you could find a guy like this and butter him or her up and even promise to be by his side through it all maybe. There are lots of wood workers with really big egos that might bite just for the challenge! If you buy him some blades and clamps and of course some "wobblely pops" he would do this for you! You know when I was getting back at speaker building I made several cabs for practice for others at no cost.

So don't give up show the thread to your fav cab guy! He might want to do other speaks for himself!

[flamethrower1]

How ironic, the original cabs were built CNC.
Worked for the original builders I guess.
Of course anyone there after has to have the TS moniker as suggested by a moderator no less.
SWEET

[JonMarsh]

Actually the original Ardents were built by hand- the first set not using Wavecor woofers. Search, or I'll post a link later.

That can serve as a tutorial for doing it "by hand and by table saw". More details about it are posted further in to the thread.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?33995-Ardent-Speaker-Camp&highlight=Ardent+speaker+camp

I still have this cabinet set; they've been adapted to the larger 7" illuminator woofer, and the 6640, instead of the 6020.

[csmielke]

In my mind one of the coolest and best proportioned designs out there. The shape and look just flat out works!
Chris

[BobEllis]

Agreed, Chris. I was considering skipping the facets for woodworking skill issues (lack of) but my girlfriend nixed the idea. She likes the look enough to go along with them out in the room a bit, but a rectangular box that size (even slanted back) was a non-starter.

[Zvu]

if you scan thru the current build threads you will find they were fabricated a few different ways......
some on table saws with homemade jigs, some with circular saws & some were cut by hand with regular old ripping saws, iirc....

I did to some extent, but there's definitely more than i thought. Thanks.

And my favorite - power plane.
Looks like the speaker building party is at Ron's. I'd make the trip for finishing lessons. ;x(

That also looks to me like the "safest" way of doing it. Do you have some pics depicting it ?

Actually the original Ardents were built by hand- the first set not using Wavecor woofers. Search, or I'll post a link later.

That can serve as a tutorial for doing it "by hand and by table saw". More details about it are posted further in to the thread.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?33995-Ardent-Speaker-Camp&highlight=Ardent+speaker+camp

I still have this cabinet set; they've been adapted to the larger 7" illuminator woofer, and the 6640, instead of the 6020.

Thanks a lot for the links and pics John. You, like every professional that i've met, make it look too easy. I appreciate very much your advice and suggestions.

About that picture of finished speaker... That looks like some Seas woofers, presumably ER18RNX ?

cheers

[JonMarsh]

Yes, those are ER18RNX. They now have 7" aluminum Illuminators in them, which were better, but still not good enough IMO. Hence, the Wavecor SW223, and the Wavecor Ardent.

BTW, the Duelund style crossover for that set couldn't possibly fit in the cabinets. Lower frequency, big components and boards. Although the paralleled ER18RNX with the Duelund crossover weren't nearly as brutal in the impedance curve as Avalon Indra's, for example, with their dual Eton's, they still weren't amplifier friendly, especially not compared with the Wavecor Ardent design, which was a major re-thinking along a number of lines- woofers first, and a crossover that harkens to the NatalieP as regards the acoustic transfer function, but as applied to a three way.

[JonMarsh]

One of my favorite pictures on the forum...

Definitely one of my favorite pictures on the forum... :T. :B

[Zvu]

I have yet to try the Duelund xover on my planned three way. It looks very interesting and i've only read about it untill now. I'm very curious of how will it sound compared to stuff that i made so far.

[BobEllis]

Sorry, no pictures, but the procedure was pretty simple. Mark the edges where you want the facets. Plane to those lines taking very shallow cuts. You can be heavier at first, but shallow cuts leave a better surface. It worked well on LBL. Not sure it would work so well on BB ply since you'd always be hitting end grain. Final flattening with sandpaper on a wooden sanding block. A rubber block or too small sanding block will give you a rounded surface. Once Ron mentioned that, I was able to get a lot flatter.

[Renron]

Pussies,
Real men use a Finish Chainsaw! (jk)
Lots of ways to skin a cat. (I'm a dog guy)
One of the easiest and safest ways is to hand saw close to the finished bevel line and use Bob's ideas of a hand power planer. It worked very well indeed, finished with a long block hand sanding for flatness along the length of the bevel. (it matters!)
It's easier following the work of others, thanks guys for being first.
Ron

[TEK]

I used my circular saw with a track

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41695-My-Wavecor-Ardent-with-center-build&p=601428&viewfull=1#post601428

[Fdas]

Festool is awesome.

[Horio]

I used my circular saw with a track

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41695-My-Wavecor-Ardent-with-center-build&p=601428&viewfull=1#post601428

I'm planning to follow Tek's method for the facets. In fact Tek's post is what pushed me over the edge to buy the festool track saw. Since then I've fallen off the slippery festool slope and purchased several more tools (dust extractor, sanders, router...)

[benthe8track]

It seems from what is being discussed that their might be a valid reason to consider flat packs or partially assembled cabinet pieces- front panels?

There is a big FX advantage for the American folks if we made more in the Great White North. We'd have to make a lot of them though.
That being said, in my previous life I made a lot of different things and sold them. Part of the appeal of this project (to me) was that we made something really cool and then gave it away. Being a mechanical guy it's not often you get to participate in something, 'open source'.

[Fdas]

There is a big FX advantage for the American folks if we made more in the Great White North. We'd have to make a lot of them though.
That being said, in my previous life I made a lot of different things and sold them. Part of the appeal of this project (to me) was that we made something really cool and then gave it away. Being a mechanical guy it's not often you get to participate in something, 'open source'.

At this moment I am not able to buy everything needed to make this speaker, but I suspect if I could by the front panel 'finished' and it was just a mater of making all the other pieces and buying the components and drivers, I could justify getting that front cabinet piece, for a project where I 'eventually' finish these speakers.

Without that front panel though, it would be just as likely as me building my house with my own two hands.

[meb46]

All... one way to go the front Baffles is to CNC Machine them. Its expensive, but would give you excellent accuracy and save a bunch of time and potential equipment costs. If there was a group interested, I would happily price material/machining/Shipping... Assuming a Pallet for shipping, it would probably need to be 6+ sets to make it "affordable" to ship to the US. My machinist has proved to be very good machining all of my Baffles for the big Isiris build...

[meb46]

CNC Machining quality out of my Singapore supplier...

[dar47]

Way to go Mike, we slip you the file you make the baffle 1/16" bigger all around and they build the box and trim the baffle to fit their final cab! Now what 6 builders are going to to step up?

[Steve Manning]

Mike did your guy glue all the layers of wood initially and then machine, or did he machine a layer at a time and then glue those together?

[Steve Manning]

For those that might be interested, I could also be an option for help with what's being discussed here lately. I certainly don't have the killer resources that Mike has, but can get the job done in a pinch. Like Mike said though, these would not be chump change to build or ship ..... but if you truly gotta have them, options are always nice to have.