Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[ergo]

Today I had the great opportunity to meet THE MAN behind the mad scientist mask in person. Due to various stars aligning I met Jon and his workmate for a few hour Ardent listening session. I came out of that with heightened motivation to start a build of my own once I get back to Estonia from the continuing US west coast tour.

I have the Minervas playing back at home, but I did feel the Ardents do have an even more clean midrange and highs. Which of course is to be expected from even higher level of speaker units but it is still another thing to get to hear that for real.

We did a very brief trial of the Soekris DAC that Jon had with him. That too seemed a very good value for the $ indeed.

I do thank both of my hosts for the great afternoon and an opportunity to listen to the original pair of these speakers.

[wkhanna]

a rare & special opportunity, indeed.

i can not think of anyone i have yet met who is more generous with his time & knowledge.

[Renron]

a rare & special opportunity, indeed.

i can not think of anyone i have yet met who is more generous with his time & knowledge.

True Dat!

Ardents are superb, with extreme clarity and timber.

[JonMarsh]

Today I had the great opportunity to meet THE MAN behind the mad scientist mask in person. Due to various stars aligning I met Jon and his workmate for a few hour Ardent listening session. I came out of that with heightened motivation to start a build of my own once I get back to Estonia from the continuing US west coast tour.

I have the Minervas playing back at home, but I did feel the Ardents do have an even more clean midrange and highs. Which of course is to be expected from even higher level of speaker units but it is still another thing to get to hear that for real.

We did a very brief trial of the Soekris DAC that Jon had with him. That too seemed a very good value for the $ indeed.

I do thank both of my hosts for the great afternoon and an opportunity to listen to the original pair of these speakers.

It was a real pleasure meeting you, Ergo, and having the listening experience and dinner together. My friend Jens also greatly enjoyed a chance to meet you specifically, and in person another forum member. He reads here frequently, but he's been spending his DIY time on fixing up his Condo- I gave him one of my older DeWalt table saws and a tile cutting saw to help him get started on that two years ago!

I hope the rest of your travel goes smoothly, and the business meetings up North are productive!


Regards- Jon

[Kevin P]

Antonio Tucci posted this but he hit the "Report Post" button instead of Reply:

John,
two little questions.
1) in a previous post (11-17-2016, 10:36 AM) in the Thread "Ardent questions", you cited a triple 8" woofers version of Ardent (by Dai Katanna). Could you give some more details (or link) about that?

2) Which is the impedance of Ardent?

[Antonio Tucci]

Sorry, I have had some troubles with registration process.
As above reported by Kevin,
I'd like to submit two little questions to JonMarsh.

1) In a previous post (11-17-2016, 10:36 AM) in the Thread "Ardent questions", you cited a triple 8" woofers version of Ardent (by Dai Katanna). Could you give some more details (or link) about that?

2) Which is the impedance of Ardent?

Many anticipated thanks

[BobEllis]

Welcome Antonio. You'll have fun here.

I'm not Jon, but the answer to your question about impedance is on the first page of this thread. There's an impedance and phase graph fairly early in the thread. It may have changed slightly with the -02 woofers, but most would consider the Ardents 8 ohms nominal impedance. There are dips into the 6 ohm range, but there are plenty of commercial "8 ohm" speakers with worse dips and phase characteristics.

One of the design goals was to make the speakers easy to drive. I'm listening with a Pass Aleph-J clone - a single ended class A amp good for maybe 30W based on current limitations. Sometimes I wish for more power, but not often.

If you are considering building a set of Ardents, you won't be disappointed. Except maybe with the quality of your current electronics. I'm able to hear differences in DACs and amplifiers that I previously couldn't. Without knowing what you have, I suspect that you will start down the path of upgrading everything upstream of the speakers. They are that good, they deserve the best you can afford.

[Steve Manning]

Sorry, I have had some troubles with registration process.
As above reported by Kevin,
I'd like to submit two little questions to JonMarsh.

1) In a previous post (11-17-2016, 10:36 AM) in the Thread "Ardent questions", you cited a triple 8" woofers version of Ardent (by Dai Katanna). Could you give some more details (or link) about that?

2) Which is the impedance of Ardent?

Many anticipated thanks

Hi Antonio ....... to answer your first question, I believe you are looking for this thread.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43291-Kurosawa-Koncept-System

It's a different speaker than the Ardent's.

[Antonio Tucci]

Hi Antonio ....... to answer your first question, I believe you are looking for this thread.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43291-Kurosawa-Koncept-System

It's a different speaker than the Ardent's.

Thank, you Steve.
As to the second question... there was a mistake. What I would like to know is not the impedance ... but the sensitivity of Ardent.

[Antonio Tucci]

Thank you Steve.

As to the second question... there was a mistake. What I would like to know is the sensitivity of Ardent (and not impedance).

[BobEllis]

Sensitivity with the currently available SW223BD02 drivers is around 82 dB/2.83V. The bass drivers are 83 dB/2.83V, add 3 dB for two of them in series, subtract 6 dB for baffle step and crossover losses. That's the tradeoff for relatively small size and deep extension (mid 30s) The -01 drivers are a couple dB more sensitive, but since they are OEM products now, it's a moot point.

[JonMarsh]

Hoffman's Iron Law is the governing factor here- bigger cabinet, (much bigger cabinet!) and a Helmhotz radiator concept (PR's) and lower net impedance (about 3 ohms versus 8 ohms as regards combined driver impedance) accounts for the sensitivity gap (that is, how much SPL for a given voltage)- that, and about 3x the money! :W

[Renron]

and about 3x the money! :W

And worth every penny.
Bob is SO correct that every upstream component makes a huge difference. I've used a Pass F5 to drive the Ardents (50w) and they sound fantastic, but the Amp just isn't powerful enough. 250W Honey Badger does the trick just fine thou. Plenty of power for dramatic music like an Orchestra. With the Ardent's design it's Pay me Now & Pay me Later. But the rewards are worth the expense. Quality always comes at a price.
Ron

[Antonio Tucci]

Aah...ok
Thank you for pointing that out.
Now I understand the reason (the compromise) for the low sensitivity of Ardent.
Probably, the solution utilized by Troels Gravesen in some of his (high-level) speakers (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Illuminator-4.htm) could represent an alternative solution. In his realizations, in fact, he employed a sealed box for the high-bass and a vented box for the lower bass section.
In this way he was able to contain, in a certain way, the size of the speakers, without sacrificing too much both the bass extension and the sensitivity.
Is a similar solution hypotizable for the Ardent?

[BobEllis]

Not quite sure what you mean. I'm guessing that you're thinking of using at least one other woofer ported to try to regain some sensitivity as either a 3.5 or 4 way. That would require a crossover redesign and likely significant expense. The crossover is already 25-35% of the cost of the build. I wouldn't risk the rest of my performance doing the redesign myself. As we discovered tweaking the crossovers for the -02 woofers, everything ties together. What looked to be simply adjusting padding on mid and highs to match sensitivity ended up changing some component values in all three networks. The real answer to the sensitivity issue is a bigger amp.

The Ardents already reach into the mid to low 30s depending on your room. That's deeper than the design you linked, although maximum output will be lower for the Ardents. What are you trying to gain other than sensitivity? Extension or maximum output? Adding a 15" or bigger subwoofer or two actively crossed at 40 Hz would probably be a better solution. Tympani and pipe organs are the only instruments that make me wish for more extension.

Another idea that's been mentioned in a "what's next for Ardent development?" thread (sorry, I can't remember the title) is adding passive radiators. Either a quartet of Wavecor 9" (ouch $$$$$) or a pair of Scan (?) 10" (on an 11" baffle?) would add some output and extension capability. It won't help the sensitivity and I wonder if the extension is needed for music. But it does bump the bottom end performance numbers slightly. It still won't get you to the low 20s for pipe organs and LFE though.

[dar47]

I think Bob nailed it! You want deeper base, build a bigger different speaker this digs more then deep enough for most rooms. If I wanted lower I wouldn't think twice and add a dedicated sub or 2. A new version maybe with a diamond even that is diminishing returns but may be just me with 12+ g's in front of them. 200w clean in front should satisfy anyone, I have 350w. In this form factor I am not sure the guy who designed them could beat them with another effort. :W Maybe lets ask Jon. if I could afford you 400 hours for design time and you couldn't change cabinet size what would you do to beat these, haha.

I can't afford any better in front them but the room and recordings are the weak link now so I am good to go with all smiles!

Wayne and Me are planning a cruise down South on our VFR's this summer through Cali and I want to stop by and hear some other guys builds with their gear so heads up Jon and Ron and any body else close!

[Antonio Tucci]

My main problem is the sensitivity. I have an amplifier with 100W into 8 ohms and with 82 dB I fear that it is not enough.

[wkhanna]

you will probably want a new amp anyways, after you build a set of these......:W

[JonMarsh]

All about the tradeoffs

Life is always about trade-offs, isn't it? :W


The key targets for the Ardents were as follows:

• Relativeliy compact form factor, with relativey high WAF (there are always exceptions, but these are much better tolerated than, say, the Isiris, by the fair sex)
• Very low distortion - particularly 3rd order and high order- and like the Isiris, they use a woofer that straddles the boundary between sub driver and conventionasl woofer in order to have some extra Xmax and use a very linear motor with monotonically decreasing distortion wtih frequency for the woofer.
• Good bass extension for the size, with the capabillity with correct room placement (and optimized boundary reinforcement) to have subjectively flat response to the 30's.
• Wide power response- very good off axis behavior
• Under $5K in basic BOM cost

To get significant extensions in low end and some improvement in sensitivity while retaining the very low distortion performance means a much larger system... which blows out the first prime directive and the last one. The core woofer volume for the Ardents is 40L for both drivers. for a moderately optimized PR version, we'd need to push that to 50 or 60. The smaller version of the Isirs (like I have) is 110L for the woofers.




The calculated BOM cost for the original version of these was $10K. This pair is in the middle of an upgrade process, with active drive and DSP equalization of the low end; this will add about another $1.2K to the BOM cost- for now I wouldn't count the brand new updated crossover parts sitting in a box- about 25% more expensive than the original crossover against that BOM. But realistically, this means about $12K BOM cost. It is an open question as to whether they will match or exceed the Dai Katana's... the latter, I here, are using a full Duelund crossover design, which was tried and discarded for the Isiris because of the driver time alignment issues.

Of course, you can get high sensitivity drivers at lower cost than Accuton, for example, but I haven't found ones at lower cost that match the linear and nonlinear distortion behavior. That doesn't mean they couldn't be fun systems for certain kinds of music- having good dynamic range and being able to play loud is a certain kind of quality in and of itself, but I started outgrowing what I would call HiFi PA systems for the home in the 90's, after building a set of Wilson Audio X1-SLAMM clones, which would certainly play loud, but had about a 15 dB lower distortion floor due to the Eton, Focal, and Audax woofers used.

These days, after looking at the driver SPL response and impedance, and freedom from resonances, even minor ones in the pass band (big problem with paper cone drivers still) (just look at the impedance curve bobbles- that's the give away) is all about the non-linear distortion.

Those Accuton AS190 and AS250 drivers are very impressive in that regard, but they don't come cheap...

[Antonio Tucci]

Jon,
Thank you for your exhaustive reply.
I think that the Ardents achieved all the goals you set. However, the low sensitivity remains (but only in my opinion) a weak point, because it represents a limit for amplifiers having less than 100-150W (referred to 8 ohm impedance).
This is a shame because
- a relevant part of Hifi hobbyists have amplifier systems lower than 100-150W;
- the Ardents, for all the considerations you have shown, could represent a true reference system.

[Steve Manning]

Jon,
Thank you for your exhaustive reply.
I think that the Ardents achieved all the goals you set. However, the low sensitivity remains (but only in my opinion) a weak point, because it represents a limit for amplifiers having less than 100-150W (referred to 8 ohm impedance).
This is a shame because
- a relevant part of Hifi hobbyists have amplifier systems lower than 100-150W;
- the Ardents, for all the considerations you have shown, could represent a true reference system.

Interesting ..... I've never heard about the low power requirement for HiFi hobbyists before, my rule book must be out of date. That in and of itself is a shame, since you will apparently miss out on such a wonderful set of speakers.

[dar47]

Antonio, what is your amp that seems to good to part with? With a build like this your material costs and time will be extensive far out reaching the value of any 150w amp. Most builders started with what they have and upgraded as they could afford. I have always believed get the best speakers you can first and build out from there. With this level of performance sensitivity to your goal level was not a consideration and is defiantly not a weak point in this design. They have a very easy impedance curve which allows for reasonably powered amp by todays standards. if your wanting to drive with a receiver then look for something down the food chain. If power draw is a concern there are wonderful class D amps now available for a reasonable DIY build, think Hypex Ncore.

[BobEllis]

Yes, Ardents are a reference system at their price and above.

As for amplifiers, remember SPL is logarithmically related to power. Consider the no power compression case and an amp that sounds good at full power. At 150W, you're 21.7 dB above 1W. That gives you peaks around 103 dB. Sure, you can probably squeak a few more dB out of the Ardents, but do you really need to? In reality there will be a bit of power compression so the output won't be quite as high as theory suggests but it seems pretty minimal.

As I mentioned, I'm running an Aleph J that is ~30W RMS, capable of 50 W peaks. That gives me around 99 dB peak SPL. Not too shabby, although I'd like to have a bit more power for bass heavy or very dynamic music. Maybe I'm just old, but my environment is fairly quiet. I listen at around 70 dB average or less most of the time. Thirty watts is plenty for that. It gives me enough headroom for peaks 30 dB above average. There aren't many recordings that will give you that dynamic range.

Notice that DAR is also in the once you have Ardents you'll want to upgrade everything else in the chain camp. He's already moved up to a DAC a time or two. I'm on my second DAC and third amp and it's only been 7 months.

[Renron]

Steve,
Ouch, did you miss your morning cup of coffee?

These are Reference quality speakers, you won't find this quality at Best Buy. If you were to compare the Ardents to store bought speakers of same quality you'll likely spend between $30K - $60K / pair. This is NOT receiver amp territory, this is SPARTA!!!

Build the Ardents, use your receiver (they'll be plenty loud enough) oh yeah. Upgrade to a good amp when you can afford it. Then buy a great DAC. HUGE difference in my system when I upgraded my DAC. (Best $83 DAC in the World) Thanks Dar47 / Jon.

Bob's right, again.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Steve,
Ouch, did you miss your morning cup of coffee?

These are Reference quality speakers, you won't find this quality at Best Buy. If you were to compare the Ardents to store bought speakers of same quality you'll likely spend between $30K - $60K / pair. This is NOT receiver amp territory, this is SPARTA!!!

Build the Ardents, use your receiver (they'll be plenty loud enough) oh yeah. Upgrade to a good amp when you can afford it. Then buy a great DAC. HUGE difference in my system when I upgraded my DAC. (Best $83 DAC in the World) Thanks Dar47 / Jon.

Bob's right, again.
Ron

Apparently so ..... my apologies Antonio. The point is though, as these fine gents are pointing out, don't miss out on something wonderful because of a preconception, break some rules and enjoy.

Thanks for keeping me honest Ron ....

[DFAL Minion]

Interesting ..... I've never heard about the low power requirement for HiFi hobbyists before, my rule book must be out of date. That in and of itself is a shame, since you will apparently miss out on such a wonderful set of speakers.

such direct responses are normally reserved to those whose skill in the Darker side of the Force are keenly refined at the highest level.
it would appear by such displays, this already proven & competent apprentice minion may be predisposed to achieve such a level, should he remain dedicated to his study & training.

[Renron]

Steve,
I didn't intend to scold you, you are one of the nicest members on this forum. (we're all nice guys)
I'm a little touchy because I used to be a frequent poster on another forum DiyAudi 0 but they are a mean bunch who enjoy beating others whose opinions differ from their own. Like being shouted down at a rally by protesters who don't agree with the speakers opinion. (end rant) (getting close to the edge of being smacked by a Moderator there)

I simply didn't want Antonio scared away from this kind, generous bunch of folks on this forum.

Antonio, If you have the skills and can afford to build these speakers including the expensive Xovers, then do it. You'll be pleasantly surprised at their ability to reach the LOW and High at the same time. Plenty of bass for my tastes, it also depends on the recording quality.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Steve,
I didn't intend to scold you, you are one of the nicest members on this forum. (we're all nice guys)
I'm a little touchy because I used to be a frequent poster on another forum DiyAudi 0 but they are a mean bunch who enjoy beating others whose opinions differ from their own. Like being shouted down at a rally by protesters who don't agree with the speakers opinion. (end rant) (getting close to the edge of being smacked by a Moderator there)

I simply didn't want Antonio scared away from this kind, generous bunch of folks on this forum.

Antonio, If you have the skills and can afford to build these speakers including the expensive Xovers, then do it. You'll be pleasantly surprised at their ability to reach the LOW and High at the same time. Plenty of bass for my tastes, it also depends on the recording quality.
Ron

No worries Ron, I did not take it as a scolding and I agree we should not chase good folks off. What I discovered was not to work on job applications and then visit the forum directly after ..... frustration that need not be shared.

[wkhanna]

no intervention required....

you guys are "self-moderating".

[DigitalMaven]

All about the tradeoffs

Life is always about trade-offs, isn't it? :W


The key targets for the Ardents were as follows:

• Relativeliy compact form factor, with relativey high WAF (there are always exceptions, but these are much better tolerated than, say, the Isiris, by the fair sex)
• Very low distortion - particularly 3rd order and high order- and like the Isiris, they use a woofer that straddles the boundary between sub driver and conventionasl woofer in order to have some extra Xmax and use a very linear motor with monotonically decreasing distortion wtih frequency for the woofer.
• Good bass extension for the size, with the capabillity with correct room placement (and optimized boundary reinforcement) to have subjectively flat response to the 30's.
• Wide power response- very good off axis behavior
• Under $5K in basic BOM cost

To get significant extensions in low end and some improvement in sensitivity while retaining the very low distortion performance means a much larger system... which blows out the first prime directive and the last one. The core woofer volume for the Ardents is 40L for both drivers. for a moderately optimized PR version, we'd need to push that to 50 or 60. The smaller version of the Isirs (like I have) is 110L for the woofers.




The calculated BOM cost for the original version of these was $10K. This pair is in the middle of an upgrade process, with active drive and DSP equalization of the low end; this will add about another $1.2K to the BOM cost- for now I wouldn't count the brand new updated crossover parts sitting in a box- about 25% more expensive than the original crossover against that BOM. But realistically, this means about $12K BOM cost. It is an open question as to whether they will match or exceed the Dai Katana's... the latter, I here, are using a full Duelund crossover design, which was tried and discarded for the Isiris because of the driver time alignment issues.

Of course, you can get high sensitivity drivers at lower cost than Accuton, for example, but I haven't found ones at lower cost that match the linear and nonlinear distortion behavior. That doesn't mean they couldn't be fun systems for certain kinds of music- having good dynamic range and being able to play loud is a certain kind of quality in and of itself, but I started outgrowing what I would call HiFi PA systems for the home in the 90's, after building a set of Wilson Audio X1-SLAMM clones, which would certainly play loud, but had about a 15 dB lower distortion floor due to the Eton, Focal, and Audax woofers used.

These days, after looking at the driver SPL response and impedance, and freedom from resonances, even minor ones in the pass band (big problem with paper cone drivers still) (just look at the impedance curve bobbles- that's the give away) is all about the non-linear distortion.

Those Accuton AS190 and AS250 drivers are very impressive in that regard, but they don't come cheap...

"What measurements do not tell is the very sound of the speaker unless displaying serious linear distortion. The level of transparency, the ability to resolve micro-details, the "speed" of the bass, etc., cannot be derived from these data. Distortion measurements rarely tell much unless seriously bad, and most modern drivers display low distortion within their specified operating range.
Many people put way too much into these graphs and my comments here are only meant as warning against over-interpretation. There are more to good sound than what can be extracted from a few graphs. Every graph needs interpretation in terms of what it means sonically and how it impacts our choice of mating drivers, cabinet and crossover design.
What measurements certainly do not tell is the sonic signature of the drivers, because cones made from polyprop, alu, Kevlar, paper, glass fiber, carbon fiber, magnesium, ceramics or even diamonds all have their way of colouring the sound.
The choice of crossover topology has a huge impact on the sound we get. We may produce the same frequency response from 1st, 2nd or 4th order filters and they may be Butterworth, Linkwitz-Riley, Bessel and others and they all sound different, very different indeed, so take care!"

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBAcoustics-10.htm

[Antonio Tucci]

Ron, thank you for your statement.
Indeed, I was discouraged to attend this forum. A group represents an advantage if it is based on an open and unconditional discussion/comparison, otherwise it is not a group but a sect.
In general, people's thoughts must always be taken into consideration, without any prejudice or preclusion. If you do not agree, fight the thought but never the person !
I did not say that Ardents are not good speakers, on the contrary, I think they are excellent speakers. I simply pointed up that their low sensitivity may represent a limit.
So, I would have expected replies about that point (sensitivity) and not others (even less … competence and capabilities of the interlocutor).

If I say that a weak point of the Ferrari SF70H is its low aerodynamic efficiency … the team cannot reply with arguments demonstrating the very good characteristiscs of the engine and/or gearbox. A wise and rational reply should focus on the aerodynamic efficiency, "demonstrating" that it is not low at all or, alternatively, that it does not influence the final result.
I hope my little English will be sufficient to transfer the thought.

[BobEllis]

Antonio, I hope you read my comments as welcoming and meant to suggest that the low sensitivity isn't quite the obstacle it seems to be at first glance. Sure, with a lot of power you will get a bit more out of the Ardents, but they are certainly usable with lower power. That was my intent, I did not mean to sound dismissive. I apologize if my comments came across that way.

[wkhanna]

Indeed, I was discouraged to attend this forum. A group represents an advantage if it is based on an open and unconditional discussion/comparison......

please know that you are always welcome here.
it is our goal to promote open discussion, always with respect for everyone's various views & opinions.

I hope my little English will be sufficient to transfer the thought.

your English is excellent.

[Horio]

Antonio,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments on these speakers. Obviously most of us on this thread are big fans of this design and have decided the good qualities of the speaker outweigh the low sensitivity. It's nice when a new face shows up and starts asking good questions. It forces us to step back, think, and ask ourselves "is there a way we could further improve the design"? That is never a bad thing.

It's probably only a matter of time before the "wavecor ardent II" comes out. :W

[dar47]

Antonio,

I too apologized if my comments were off putting, glad your here it's a very kind forum. For me I guess I was trying to fill in the blanks and was unsure if your amp was something like a low powered tube or an older high quality low power solid state amp you just didn't want to part with. If your considering a Ardent build we would love to know what your current setup is and this may help with your perspective. I think with all designs cars included, the designer is trying to achieve a certain goal while not focusing on the small concerns he deems unimportant for the task he is trying to accomplish. So maybe sensitive to this level is not important, but he sure accommodated a benign load for most amps and this was my point. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone to go away if your not willing to replace all your current gear but the Designer did state he was done with PA system type builds long ago so high efficiency to the levels your thinking was missing from the design was not a consideration. If you think others would be put off by the efficiency then what would you like to see done to improve the design.

[Renron]

Digital Maven,
Welcome to the Loony Bin. :blink:
Your statement is quite valid IMO. I cannot describe the pleasure I get when listening to these speakers when I can hear the tone of the wood inside a violin / fiddle. The sparkle then decay of a High Hat cymbal or the wooden drumstick smack the rim of a drum. It's a warm and fuzzy feeling that makes me smile. I've been to Burning Amp many times and have had the opportunity to hear some high end speakers (although not in an appropriate setting) and the Ardents can hold their own just fine.

Concerning the sensitivity or lack thereof, I generally listen in my medium sized room at ~ -20dB. -15dB and the wife unit leaves the room, too loud. Volume is not an issue for me.

[Antonio Tucci]

Thanks to all for your "encouraging" replies.

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

[DigitalMaven]

Ron, thank you for your statement.
Indeed, I was discouraged to attend this forum. A group represents an advantage if it is based on an open and unconditional discussion/comparison, otherwise it is not a group but a sect.
In general, people's thoughts must always be taken into consideration, without any prejudice or preclusion. If you do not agree, fight the thought but never the person !
I did not say that Ardents are not good speakers, on the contrary, I think they are excellent speakers. I simply pointed up that their low sensitivity may represent a limit.
So, I would have expected replies about that point (sensitivity) and not others (even less … competence and capabilities of the interlocutor).

If I say that a weak point of the Ferrari SF70H is its low aerodynamic efficiency … the team cannot reply with arguments demonstrating the very good characteristiscs of the engine and/or gearbox. A wise and rational reply should focus on the aerodynamic efficiency, "demonstrating" that it is not low at all or, alternatively, that it does not influence the final result.
I hope my little English will be sufficient to transfer the thought.

I think it might be safe to say that Marsh is matching the other components (Tweeter, Midrange) to meet the needs of his desired woofers. I personally Like paper hybrids vs. ceramics and metal drivers. I do like metal domes if well engineered like the seas h1212 and the beryllium dome that marsh used in this design. But it is also ten times the cost of the seas h1212 and the question should be does it offer at least twice the performance for the additional cost?

[BobEllis]

With the caveat that I have not used an H1212 with Clarity Cap MR or CMR in the circuit, I'll say that the performance of the Be dome performs at least twice as well as the H1212. Look at distortion figures for part of the reason. Ron's description of the details he hears with his Scan 6600s is better than I could describe it. The smiles I get listening to my Ardents and the reaction of non audiophile friends (usually along the lines of "I didn't know speakers could sound so good.") make it all well worth the price for me.

The 6640 still a significant jump up from the Seas E0006, with the same capacitor caveat. That will change someday, I have the MRs to replace the caps in my speakers using the E0006. The performance difference between the 6600 and 6640 is probably very small, well up on the steep part of the diminishing returns curve.

[TEK]

Thanks to all for your "encouraging" replies.

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_qdJZu9_iQwRk44bDA0RHpPdEU/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_qdJZu9_iQwazIzTjQ2QUxjSzA/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_q...ew?usp=sharing

From what you write here, my understanding is that you have selected to build your system around your amplifier.
I think that is a fully acceptable approach.
As you have already noted, The Wavecore Ardents have quite lov sensitivity.
So, you should evaluate if they are right for you given that condition. And the answare is not nessesarly yes...

[dar47]

Original design Ardent first version was centered around the mid not the tweet and it's very clean neutral sound. I describe it as having all the detail without calling any attention to itself. Most other 3 way designs I have heard tend to have a stronger mid signature, not the Ardent. for the Wavecor Ardent, Jon applied lessens learned from the Isiris that was design before the Wavecor version after first version Ardent. Along came this new woofer and we all wondered if it could bring the Ardent up a notch. As is noted most would be content with the 6600 but the 6640 really starts to payoff with better recordings and front end gear.

Antonio, thanks for the response will have to check the links out.

[dar47]

Hey tek, congrats on the Mod designation and be careful with those cheeky footnotes, haha

[DigitalMaven]

With the caveat that I have not used an H1212 with Clarity Cap MR or CMR in the circuit, I'll say that the performance of the Be dome performs at least twice as well as the H1212. Look at distortion figures for part of the reason. Ron's description of the details he hears with his Scan 6600s is better than I could describe it. The smiles I get listening to my Ardents and the reaction of non audiophile friends (usually along the lines of "I didn't know speakers could sound so good.") make it all well worth the price for me.

The 6640 still a significant jump up from the Seas E0006, with the same capacitor caveat. That will change someday, I have the MRs to replace the caps in my speakers using the E0006. The performance difference between the 6600 and 6640 is probably very small, well up on the steep part of the diminishing returns curve.

Placebo Vs. reality...

Here's a scary example...a comparison between a $130 Dayton woofer and a $700 skanning woofer...

Zaph claims that every thing below 90 hz is better on a skanning but not by much and above 90hz there is no difference...thats what $500 gets you plus a little extra sensitivity...

"Both drivers are 12" and 4 ohms but the similarities end there. These are two vastly different drivers. Here are some differences:

Cone material - Dayton: aluminum, Skaaning: polypropelene
Motor design - Dayton: copper rings above and below gap, Skaaning: copper sleeve through gap
Suspension - Dayton: very stiff, Skaaning: very compliant
Excursion - Dayton: 14mm, Skaaning: 10mm
Sensitivity - Dayton: 86dB, Skaaning: 90dB
Origin - Dayton: China, Skaaning: Denmark
Price - Dayton: $130, Skaaning: $700

What does it all mean? Well, in a complete shocker, the $700 woofer outperforms the $130 woofer. Not by much, however, and the lead disappears above 90 Hz. Both are excellent performers, and we're basically comparing goodness at a price that's a steal with greatness at a price that's outrageous. Note that there's enough difference between these woofers that these results are not an argument in favor of my Woofers with lower Xmax sound better rant, but I'm sure some aspects of that argument are true.

The Dayton RSS315HF subwoofer remains my favorite sub that I use very often in my home theater. I don't think I'm about to toss my Skaaning SK300 on ebay however. It would make a great music-only sub in my listening room, where I don't have to reproduce explosions and sound effects."

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/

[JonMarsh]

The Dayton RSS315HF subwoofer remains my favorite sub that I use very often in my home theater. I don't think I'm about to toss my Skaaning SK300 on ebay however. It would make a great music-only sub in my listening room, where I don't have to reproduce explosions and sound effects."

I can relate to this- I like the 315HF quite a bit too, and when I have more room someday, will build something with them...

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

I can totally relate to that- I feel the same way about my Halcro DM68's and my TotalDAC. Not quite as convinced about my DM10- I have a friend in Munich with a heavily modified (by Schnerzinger) Chorale preamp that I would kill for under the right circumstances (that I could get away with it).


OTOH, I might point out that a bit over a week ago we demo'd what used to be my pair of Wavecor Ardent's for Ergo, when he was in town (in the Bay Area) so to speak, and just with a Cambridge Audio 651W, a 100W/8 ohm amplifier- as is the norm, we kept the volume down because my friend who owns them now lives in a Condo, but for a few cuts (Jacque Lousier trio live recording, Elton Jon "ballad of a well known gun" (ripped from DSD layer of SACD) and Lorde "Tennis Court" and "Royals" we let loose (this was just in the mid afternoon, after all) and Ergo seemed a bit surprised at how well the Cambridge drove them with nominally demanding material and how loud- before we even started, we acknowledged they were being demo's on "mid fi" electronics.

Now, this is not a large living room, and the Ardent's are a remarkably easy load to drive (just look at the impedance magnitude and phase curve- makes an Avalon Indra look like it was designed by someone not very skilled in the art, so to speak...). but a quality 100W is not a bad thing at all... 200W is just 3 dB more headroom.

[BobEllis]

Placebo Vs. reality...

Yep, I'm sure there is a bit of pride of ownership and expectation built in. But considering I wasn't hearing a difference in electronics before these and now it's readily apparent I'm convinced there's a lot of reality in my perception, too. I was a skeptic/disbeliever about the value of super expensive drivers and boutique capacitors before this build. It's changed my mind. Try it if you have a need for a reference quality speaker, it might change your perspective.