Ardent Speaker Camp

[Evil Twin]

It's not at that level, but I did have a job in the early 80's for a while that involved a number of 90+ hour weeks. That's just exploitation; no other word for it. Things ebb and flow a bit here, it's also depended on the manager- at least though I sometimes work insane hours during the week, for now I'm keeping my weekends. Otherwise...

And now the local Moff is in a panic over his lack of technical knowledge and a new request late Friday afternoon from an Apple engineer, and believes the only solution is for Mr. Marsh to work this weekend on a new problem and cancel or re-route at the last minute a business trip planned to start Monday morning earliest.

It may be time for a "go to the Sithlord" discussion with this incompetent cousin to captain Needa.

[Evil Twin]

Bah, you guys and your fancy tools. Real manly men build speakers with a chainsaw and a pocket knife. I'm sure ET would have some words of warning for those who use tools as a crutch for the lack of proper focusing of The Force.

Spoken like a true man.... in my youth on Tatooine I used to build folded horn bass bins for playing in the cantina with nothing more than a saber jigsaw and an old school protractor. Next were frontloaded horns with only adding an nearly broken radial arm saw to create the plywood kerf cuts and the most miserable excuse for a router you could find in that part of the galaxy....

You must be able to sense the flow of forces and the correct geometry- without developing this "feel" and innate precision, it is an impossible task to to tune a pod racer engine or assemble your first light saber.

[bigg]

Bosch Router

OK. So my Bosch is better than the Porter Cable. My Bosch is relegated to the router table. Great motor but the switch is iffy. In the router table the router motor's switch stays on and the table's switch is used to turn the unit on/off. So no problem there. The new Bosch routers are supposed to be better because they have a dust proof switch. I guess I will eventually get a second Bosch. :T

Please no comments about Dewalt, Milwaukee and Craftsman. Been there, done that. I like my Bosch better.

[cjd]

You can disassemble and clean the switch on the Bosch... Been there (have I said I hate MDF?)

[JonMarsh]

You can disassemble and clean the switch on the Bosch... Been there (have I said I hate MDF?)

Only a few dozen times- you're having trouble getting the point across, I think... :W

[bigg]

Hate MDF

You can disassemble and clean the switch on the Bosch... Been there (have I said I hate MDF?)

But why? Why do you HATE MDF? :scratchhead:

[TacoD]

It doesn't taste good....

[JonMarsh]

Quite true!

[JoshK]

I hate MDF because even with a dust collector and air filter the dust gets everywhere in my basement shop. I am going to stick with BB for the foreseeable future even if it costs me an arm and a leg.

The other option is to set everything up in the backyard. But I am not lugging my TS out of the basement.

Multiple routers here too. Hitachi M12 in the bench dog router table. Porter Cable 600 series with plunge and fixed based. That one is setup with the jasper circle jig currently. Then I have a Grizzly chinese job that is actually smoother than the PC and less loud too. It is a bit underpowered and a pain to setup but I have it setup with a flush bit.

[bigg]

Doesn't anyone wear a dust mask anymore? :scratchhead:

[kingpin]

Doesn't anyone wear a dust mask anymore? :scratchhead:

After getting violently sick a few times after working with mdf I made sure to buy a proper mask that filtered things like phemaldehyde.

Once that stuff starts getting in your system it's all over. lol

Mike

[JonMarsh]

Speaking of MDF dust...

I finally got finished with the BS work thing about noon today- a day and a half of my weekend flushed-

I've gotten the sides and backs grooved and rabbeted- at least I got to do something fun before I start packing.



Due to the stringent dust abatement laws in CA and our meticulous dust collection, there was no environmental release of MDF dust, however, to make Chuck happy, I used some CGI and touched up the picture, creating the illusion of sawdust from the ongoing labors. Spent more time on the CGI than the actual wood cutting, so I hope it's convincing. :B

[CupCak3]

recessing a brace I'm ASSuming???

better get out the shop vac b/f someone calls Arnold!

[JonP]

Should we worry that Jon's last post was his 6,666th? 8O

[Evil Twin]

Impressive... most impressive.

You alone have identified this most significant event- one which will be marked in history much as the Trade Wars with Naboo and the Separatists was, and the other machinations of Darth Siduous.

With this post, his repressed identity as the Chancellor will begin to emerge, and the circle will become complete. As I was once the student, then the master, so shall he too become a master- but not necessarily of his own destiny....

[JonP]

And what mysterious confluence must it signify... that with that announcement I see that the Evil one's count became 444??? 8O

I'm getting out of here before it's 2:22....

[bigg]

After getting violently sick a few times after working with mdf I made sure to buy a proper mask that filtered things like phemaldehyde.

Once that stuff starts getting in your system it's all over. lol

Mike

Hey Mike,
Is your dust mask one of those painter style masks? The ones that run about $50.00? :roll:

Dust , dust and more dust! It's in every nook and cranny in my work area! I haven't been sick yet, but it's not a place I enjoy working in anymore.

[PoorboyMike]

Hey Mike,
Is your dust mask one of those painter style masks? The ones that run about $50.00? :roll:

Dust , dust and more dust! It's in every nook and cranny in my work area! I haven't been sick yet, but it's not a place I enjoy working in anymore.

Throw on a dust mask and get the leaf blower out. Your neighbors will love you for it. :B

[kingpin]

Hey Mike,
Is your dust mask one of those painter style masks? The ones that run about $50.00? :roll:

Dust , dust and more dust! It's in every nook and cranny in my work area! I haven't been sick yet, but it's not a place I enjoy working in anymore.

It was actually about $70.00.
It's more of a chemical mask than a dust mask I suppose.
But it works great. I hated masks at the beginning but better than the alternative.

[bigg]

I've seen them in the hardware store. They certainly look like they would do the trick! Another item for my new shop shopping list.

[Lurkalot]

MDF Dust and Health Hazards

The principle hazard with MDF is that the size of the airborne dust particles are very small, and can easily make it past the primary defences of your respiratory tract. Conventional paper dust masks (the white ones with elastic straps we all use) are ineffective against particles this small. The amount of formaldehyde that would off-gas during the cutting proccess is really so little that it is not a concern . What you need to protect yourself is a properly fit-tested 1/2 mask cartridge respirator fitted with HEPA cartridges. These are purple or pinkish in colour, and widely available at any safety supply company. These filters are highly effective at capturing a minimum of 99.97% of all dust particles of .3 microns in size.

I do not recommend buying an "off-the-shelf" cartridge respirator, as without fit-testing, the effectiveness of the respirator is highly suspect. Our lungs are worth $50 or so, which is all such a respirator costs.

Build Speakers Safely

[bigg]

The principle hazard with MDF is that the size of the airborne dust particles are very small, and can easily make it past the primary defences of your respiratory tract. Conventional paper dust masks (the white ones with elastic straps we all use) are ineffective against particles this small. The amount of formaldehyde that would off-gas during the cutting proccess is really so little that it is not a concern . What you need to protect yourself is a properly fit-tested 1/2 mask cartridge respirator fitted with HEPA cartridges. These are purple or pinkish in colour, and widely available at any safety supply company. These filters are highly effective at capturing a minimum of 99.97% of all dust particles of .3 microns in size.

I do not recommend buying an "off-the-shelf" cartridge respirator, as without fit-testing, the effectiveness of the respirator is highly suspect. Our lungs are worth $50 or so, which is all such a respirator costs.

Build Speakers Safely

Thanks Lurkalot.
I will definitely check those out. It doesn't seem to make much fine dust if I do all cutting by hand. But it's very hard to get a perfectly straight and square cut. I'm building a set that way now. I don't know if the results will be any good. I love working with wood, I'm just not that good at it.

[chasw98]

Kind of quiet around here.... Anybody home? Are you just relishing your 6,666th post for a while or are you in Borneo advising some slack jawed engineer on how to deposit silicon film on an other worldly rare element substrate? Maybe you are just working on Photoshopping some sawdust on a picture of yourself standing next to a freshly cut piece of bamboo? Touche, mon ami!

[Hank]

Doesn't anyone wear a dust mask anymore?

We make several different masks that are quite effective, depending on what you're filtering. Not my division, so can't quote a model number best for MDF dust, but the Orange store carries different models.

Jon is helping Apple figure out how to shrink their video chipset so that their next video product will be even smaller. Never mind that it will be too small to be useful - APPLE has spoken, and Jon has jumped. tsk, tsk

[JonMarsh]

We make several different masks that are quite effective, depending on what you're filtering. Not my division, so can't quote a model number best for MDF dust, but the Orange store carries different models.

Jon is helping Apple figure out how to shrink their video chipset so that their next video product will be even smaller. Never mind that it will be too small to be useful - APPLE has spoken, and Jon has jumped. tsk, tsk

Actually, I'm working on the make it bigger department... but I cannot discuss, for the obvious reasons... :W


BTW, Hank is right- 3M has great mask products, just ordered a 3M 7162, for when I'm doing finishing on the Ardents. ET has this all built in, of course- makes him a "natural" in the shop.



But at least now I'll be able to help. :B

[Hank]

Thanks for the plug, professor.

And yes, bigger is better. BTW, my outfit is working on LED illumination digital projectors, extracting maximum lumens out of LED's with proprietary sauce.
Uh-oh, gotta run - here comes narc Thomas 8O

[---k---]

We make several different masks that are quite effective, depending on what you're filtering. Not my division, so can't quote a model number best for MDF dust, but the Orange store carries different models.

Hank,
Maybe I'm all wet, but based on my experiences with masks gained from numerous safety classes and getting one fitted for a mold remediation job, it seems like there is a lot of bad information floating around the net. I sometimes think that our zealousness for overkill extends to overkill in safety. I usually just make sure I have a N95 rated mask and call it good enough for me.

If at all possible or practical, I would really appreciate it if you could find out from one of the experts in your company which exactly is the right mask to use.

[benchtester]

Actually, I'm working on the make it bigger department... but I cannot discuss, for the obvious reasons... :W


BTW, Hank is right- 3M has great mask products, just ordered a 3M 7162, for when I'm doing finishing on the Ardents. ET has this all built in, of course- makes him a "natural" in the shop.



But at least now I'll be able to help. :B

Ooww Ahh!

I need one of those, I am always getting sawdust in my eyes; even with eye protection. :T

[Hank]

Ryan, all I ever wear with MDF is an N95 mask. Frankly most problems I hear about are from people not fitting the mask correctly. You really have to put pressure on those metal bands to form-fit the mask tightly around your nose. That said, I am not an expert, so I just sent the MDF question to a technical contact in that division.
I like the face mask for dust-in-the-eye protection too, but it's warm to hot in my garage and I'd sweat like a pig in one of those.

[---k---]

Ryan, all I ever wear with MDF is an N95 mask.

:T If it is good enough for Hank, it is good enough for me! Ignorance of the truth is bliss.

Looking forward to hearing the response from your technical support. I appreciate you asking.

[JonMarsh]

Ryan, all I ever wear with MDF is an N95 mask. Frankly most problems I hear about are from people not fitting the mask correctly. You really have to put pressure on those metal bands to form-fit the mask tightly around your nose. That said, I am not an expert, so I just sent the MDF question to a technical contact in that division.
I like the face mask for dust-in-the-eye protection too, but it's warm to hot in my garage and I'd sweat like a pig in one of those.

The 7162 has replaceable cartridges and is designed to handle volatile organics- ie for doing my lacquer spraying. It's overkill for MDF dust, but would certainly work, apart from the comfort issue with high ambient temperature.

[Lurkalot]

Respirator fit-test procedure

You can do a seat of the pants cartridge respirator "qualitative" fit-test with some banana oil ampoules (isoamyl acetate, available at the safety supply stores) and a friend's help in a few minutes. Simply don the respirator equipped with organic vapour cartridges (colour-coded black, used for solvent -based finishes) , and have the friend crush the plastic ampoule and then slowly wave it directly in front of each cartridge. Have them repeat the process while slowly moving your head side to side and up and down. Finally repeat as you sing Happy Birthday for 10 seconds in your new respirator.

If you can smell bananas, you either need a different size respirator face piece, or your straps are too loose. You should not need to pull the straps too tight in orer to get a good seal either.

Remember to be clean shaven where the face-piece seals against your face. If all is well, put the HEPA cartridges on and start cutting MDF - your lungs will definitely thank you for it :>)

[Hank]

Ryan et al, here's the tech's answer:
"Any respirator with an N95 approval would be good for use against MDF . If, however, you find the dust concentration to be higher than 10 times the permissible exposure limit (PEL)for wood dust, then perhaps a full facepiece respirator would be more appropriate."
Regarding that PEL for wood dust, here's an OSU paper: "Wood Dust Exposure Hazards": http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0595_1.html
Quote from that paper: "OSHA does not have a specific PEL for wood dust. However, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has established a recommended exposure limit (REL) for wood dust, all soft and hardwoods except western red cedar, of 1 mg/m3 as a TWA for up to a 10-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek [NIOSH 1992]."
Note that this is all about people exposed to wood dust on the job, day after day, so I think I'm okay with an N95 basic mask.
Now let's make some dust...hmmm, I think I smell bananas...

[---k---]

:T
Thanks for that. It is reassuring. Might be a good item to add to our FAQ section, since it comes up often.

[JonMarsh]

Mid weekend update

Just a post to indicate that no, I'm not out on the patio sipping a Pina Colada, enjoying the golden California sunshine in the 70's, but instead am slaving away- not much picture worthy going on yet, though.

• Test finishing on scraps from veneered front panel is underway, with sanding, Behlen's Por-O-Pac applied and first coat of lacquer sanding sealer.
• Midrange driver brace is re-designed, and partially constructed-should be finished later today.
• Veneer flattening for sides and tops is well underway, in drying stages now
• Spacer blocks for use at bottom of cabinet, same width as top panel, have been fabricated
• Side braces have been "holed" and roundovers applied, ready for assembly
• Whispermat cut for selected portions of enlcosure, to glue on to panels prior to box assembly
• Maple for base is purchased, and design completed.
• Other than that, just sitting around goofing off, trying to re-design my Mr. Fusion.
• Decided against competing with Chuck in exposed belly speaker building porn

[chasw98]

[*]Decided against competing with Chuck in exposed belly speaker building porn[/list]

I am going to regret that picture for a long time. But I didn't photoshop it and I will let it stand! or sag depending on age and ice cream. :T

[ColoradoTom]

Just a post to indicate that no, I'm not out on the patio sipping a Pina Colada, enjoying the golden California sunshine in the 70's, but instead am slaving away- not much picture worthy going on yet, though.

• Test finishing on scraps from veneered front panel is underway, with sanding, Behlen's Por-O-Pac applied and first coat of lacquer sanding sealer.
• Midrange driver brace is re-designed, and partially constructed-should be finished later today.
• Veneer flattening for sides and tops is well underway, in drying stages now
• Spacer blocks for use at bottom of cabinet, same width as top panel, have been fabricated
• Side braces have been "holed" and roundovers applied, ready for assembly
• Whispermat cut for selected portions of enlcosure, to glue on to panels prior to box assembly
• Maple for base is purchased, and design completed.
• Other than that, just sitting around goofing off, trying to re-design my Mr. Fusion.
• Decided against competing with Chuck in exposed belly speaker building porn

Jon......

Good to hear progress is being made. My daughters bed was completed this weekend (came out really nice) and I'm finishing a side table for her bedroom and a coffee table for my wife. On schedule for speaker building in late August!!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Good news, Tom! Actually finishing something is a pretty nice feeling, isn't it? :W

I plan to go full bore this week, let's see how far this takes me. The trouble with an intricate trick design is that it takes more work!

I'm pleased with how my finishing test is turning out- I really like what figured curly maple and birdseye do when the angle of light changes- it's like those 3D motion stickers, the tone can completely change, even invert- same for the quilted maple I'm trying for the tops. I realize the veneer I obtained is not "first class" for this kind of stuff, but it's still very nice. I've found another outfit and some other samples I may look into for the next project.


For a wires and sparks/electronics kind of guy like me, this is going pretty far out in the wood working direction- I'm certainly enjoying it, though. :B

[ColoradoTom]

Good news, Tom! Actually finishing something is a pretty nice feeling, isn't it? :W

I plan to go full bore this week, let's see how far this takes me. The trouble with an intricate trick design is that it takes more work!

I'm pleased with how my finishing test is turning out- I really like what figured curly maple and birdseye do when the angle of light changes- it's like those 3D motion stickers, the tone can completely change, even invert- same for the quilted maple I'm trying for the tops. I realize the veneer I obtained is not "first class" for this kind of stuff, but it's still very nice. I've found another outfit and some other samples I may look into for the next project.


For a wires and sparks/electronics kind of guy like me, this is going pretty far out in the wood working direction- I'm certainly enjoying it, though. :B

Yup... I have the bed set up in a spare bedroom until we can get her old stuff moved out. It was a good feeling to see it all come together and to see the look on my daughters face when she actually saw it completed. Each project has its own learning curve... I'd done bent laminations before, but never on this scale.

I have some figured walnut that looks amazing when the light angle changes.... it is a crotch figure and it has browns, pinks, purples and a shimering quality that you can't really see unless you have the piece in your hand. I took the wood and cut it into veneers that I will probably use on drawer fronts on some future project. The piece of wood was originally a "throw-away" piece from the people that delivered the wood to my house. They had several five foot long boards that were rejected by a customer because they were warped and twisted - typical of crotch boards. When they made my delivery they asked me if I wanted the boards for firewood. After a run through the jointer and the planer I had some of the coolest looking figured boards I'd seen in quite a while! Makes me wonder how much figured wood goes to waste.

There is a place here in Colorado "B&B" that usually carries some pretty good veneers - don't know if you'll have time when you're out here, but they are in Golden. I'm pretty sure Genesis was using them for thier rosewood veneer on the higher-end models.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

There is a place here in Colorado "B&B" that usually carries some pretty good veneers - don't know if you'll have time when you're out here, but they are in Golden. I'm pretty sure Genesis was using them for thier rosewood veneer on the higher-end models.

Tom

That sounds like something to look into- if not on this trip, another one soon! This one looks to be VERY busy... :W

[fjhuerta]

I had a boss that used to say this, with a bit of a smirking laugh. About the fiftieth time I'd heard him say it, and after I ended up working more than 400 hours one January, I started to fear he really wasn't kidding (a good weekend involved half a day off, the January in question was simply absurd with 110+ hour weeks). I left the company shortly thereafter... 8O

My boss used to say the same thing.

3 months ago, he had two heart attacks. At 45 years old, its a miracle he survived them.

I think of him more like one of my closest friends outside the office. He's a great person. I passed quite some time with him at the hospital, and spent long hours talking about life, work, and our families.

We changed our work habits a lot.. and our way of thinking.

All I can say now is that anyone who is proud about working such long hours or doesn't think about its long term consequences really needs to consider the fact that eventually there WILL be a price to pay.

OK, rant over.

[JonMarsh]

Good rant, welcome any time!


A lot of side work yesterday, moving things around and setting up for the next stages, but did get a few things done....

• Epoxied midrange vibration braces into the front panel assemblies
• Ripped and cross cut side panel base spars, and epoxied to interior of side panels
• Fabricated veneer clamp blocks for upper bevel veneer
• Ripped set of side panels for second set based on Dayton drivers
• Did a dry fit test of back, sides, top, side braces, center brace, and mid enclosure
• More laccquer layers sprayed on finishing test blocks
• Run to Lowe's for 3M 90 adhesive and sanding blocks
• Completed update on CAD drawings with side wall base spars and midrange driver brace

Might have something picture worthy by tonight.... :W

[Hdale85]

Ah pictures would be amazing I look forward to them!

[JonMarsh]

Ah, the sweet smell of epoxy curing and fresh 3M Adhesive 90 for attaching Whispermat II to MDF panels! That's what a great summer day is all about!

[TacoD]

Do you also have plans to apply veneer on the Dayton version?