"Project Overkill" is going under the knife!!

[kingpin]

Yup.

Like I said from the beginning of my original build thread. I would rather build these speakers the way I want to and fail then to of never of tried in the first place.

So with that all said and done here is the reasoning.

My original thoughts on these speakers was to turn CJD's 3-ways upside down and add the 2 12" Dayton High Fidelity subs underneath each speaker.
So that;s the way I built them.
After listening to them for a while they just weren't living up to the potential that I thought they had. They sounded good in the bass department but the rest was just not working. One day while driving a kid pulls up next to me and all as I could hear is that big sloppy annoying bass that seems to be in every under 20 year olds car. I looked over and said. You know, there is more to music than just bass.

Then it went off in my head. :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:


Maybe with the the main part of the speakers up so high a lot of the critical information was just passing over my head. Again the bass was awesome but something was missing.

So I turned one speaker upside down and did some heavy listening as well as some a b testing. Boy, did that upside down speaker come to life. It was all there. So I quickly turned the other upside down also and what I was hearing now was waht I was expecting and even more.

But, the bass went way thin.
I figured that when I was to move into my place I am in know and I got the outriggers on I would be able to tilt slightly the top down more towards the listener and get that bass back. Nope didn't and hasn't happened.

So, if you are still with me. They will be going under the knife soon.

My original thoughts were to cut the bass bin section off and put a bottom on it and call it a day. This won't work cause I would actually cut through part of the bass driver recess. So I will cut the cabs off and probably just toss them.

This project is under an extremely low budget. In no way will I be buying another amp or crossover or anything electronic. I will however not skimp out on building the most solid cabinets(s) I can and shell out a couple bucks for internal wire. I already have the binding posts and the drivers.

Here are my ideas and we can go from there.

I have a total of 5 Dayton RS 12" High Fidelity subs. would like to use 4 if not all 5 of them. Would loke to use 2 of them(1on each side) as a mid low woofer that I can cross on my CX2310 up to 120 to even 160hz on some rare occasions for that low mid chest thump. This is not a must though if it won't work properly. The other 2 would be crossed at 80 hz for the lower rumble(ported maybe). The idea is to have 2 12's per side in their own cabinet with the top one sealed(ported maybe better that's where your thoughts come in)and the bottom one ported.

Or if that's not good I could go about it any other way. There are alot of different combinations.
I could put 1 12" per side and then have a seperate sub cabinet with 3 of the 12's.
I could put 2 in the same box per side with a front and rear firing woofer.

Give me your thoughts.

I am getting excited just thinking about building something again.

As for power. I have a Behringer ep2500 that I have been running at 2 ohms per side with no problems what so ever. If I am not wrong I could run this parallel so I can run 2 seperate and different channels from it.

That's it.

Mike

P.S. I can see you rolling your eyes at me Thomas. Could this be another 20 page thread. :rofl:

[ahaik]

My original thoughts were to cut the bass bin section off and put a bottom on it and call it a day. This won't work cause I would actually cut through part of the bass driver recess. So I will cut the cabs off and probably just toss them.

Could you cut only one of the Subs off ?
That might bring it to the right height.

[---k---]

Makes sense. With the speakers upside down and the drivers responsible for 50hz-350hz way up in the air, it might sound funky due to the localization and time delay. And then with the subs up in the air, well, a big reason that subs are recommended is so that you can position them in the perfect spot.

I've only skimmed your thread, so I'm not up on the decision to go with the bass bin approach rather than than subs crossed by the processor. I wonder about the _need_ and benefit of crossing the RS270s higher up. I'm thinking maybe a more conventional setup would be just the ticket - sell the all 5 of the RS315HFs and the Behringer CX2310. Then get 4 of the 15" RS HF or HO Subs, put two in each sealed box, and use your processor to cross at say 50 or 60hz and use them as a more traditional sub.

Lots of sub options. CJD has said a few times a nice IB would go well with his 3-ways.

[kingpin]

Makes sense. With the speakers upside down and the drivers responsible for 50hz-350hz way up in the air, it might sound funky due to the localization and time delay. And then with the subs up in the air, well, a big reason that subs are recommended is so that you can position them in the perfect spot.

I've only skimmed your thread, so I'm not up on the decision to go with the bass bin approach rather than than subs crossed by the processor. I wonder about the _need_ and benefit of crossing the RS270s higher up. I'm thinking maybe a more conventional setup would be just the ticket - sell the all 5 of the RS315HFs and the Behringer CX2310. Then get 4 of the 15" RS HF or HO Subs, put two in each sealed box, and use your processor to cross at say 50 or 60hz and use them as a more traditional sub.

Lots of sub options. CJD has said a few times a nice IB would go well with his 3-ways.

Chris said before crossing the subs any higher than 100hz(I think) would be killing the performance of the 270's. I don't want to mess the original 3-ways any more than necessary. I finally got them sounding the way I think they are supposed to( no thanks to the cleanbox).
I am wondering if 2 subs ported with a front and rear firing woofer is best.
I hate trying to sell things. Most of the buyers would be in the US which makes shipping a real PITA. If I was able to sell them I would probably buy 2 of the Mach 5 18" IXL's from Mr. Ogowski.

[kingpin]

I would probably buy 2 of the Mach 5 18" IXL's from Mr. Ogowski.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Hdale85]

Hmm why are you quoting your self? :B

[kingpin]

I am so itching to start building something.
I must.....No I will resist the urge to buy more stuff.

Actually Dougie. There will be no major money spent on this.
Reality bites.

Mike

[dlneubec]

I'm not sure I'm following why you can't cut the cabinets off, but assuming you can't, have you considered separating the subs entirely from the WWMTM's? You could make one big box to act as your TV stand, with some shielding and vibration control if need be and put the 4-12" drivers in that box.

Better yet, make two boxes to act as a TV stand (lighter and more flexible for future reuse or relocation) with two 12's in each, so that you have 4 RS315's sitting under TV firing forward. If each cab was 15" or so high, 28" or so deep and 30" wide you would probably have plenty of volume to go ported, TL, etc. Ports could be front firing or downfiring if you rasied them off the floor.

I have a similar plan in mind using 4-12" subs, then a shelf above, large enough to hole a 9.5" wide CC speaker and some storage and a shelf for the TV above (see the attached pdf).

Dan

[sprint_9]

What about a seperate sub box with all 4 or 5 subs in it, 5 subs would be a funky ohm load. Maybe with two ported and two sealed, no idea on if that would work though, just throwing around ideas for you.

[sprint_9]

lol we think alike

[soho54]

With the two 270 in the air I can see the response acting up. The subs in the sky though is a little different. What xover did you end up using?

I have a feeling you are not adjusting well to the flat 3-way response. With a flat speaker FR there is no "thump" in the chest until high SPLs. This is a common complaint from those looking for this characteristic.

A little EQ in the 80-200Hz area should fix you right up. :T


I would use the five 12"s in a separate dedicated LFE sub.


A cheap SPL meter would really help us, help you out.

Opinions only, as usual.

[---k---]

Chris said before crossing the subs any higher than 100hz(I think) would be killing the performance of the 270's. I don't want to mess the original 3-ways any more than necessary.

I'm getting you confused with someone else then. I was thinking (and couldn't understand why) you were crossing higher, like around 200hz. Then, I guess I'm confused why you needed the active crossover. Was a sub crossover missing from your processor, or something?

Anyway, the obvious solution, like several have suggested, is to just chop the RS HFs out, and restore the 3-ways back to CJD's original design, and then build two subs, each with two opposing drivers crossed around 60hz. Then locate the subs to suite the room.

Are you needing models to size the boxes?

[soho54]

He made 4-ways out of cjd's 3-ways.

The active xover was to split the 3-way portion away from the new bottom (Top) end.

The 3-way portion is already to cjd's spec.

[kingpin]

Things that don't mix. Night shift and neighbour with drums. uggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!

A little clarification. I made sure that when I built my speakers if for any reason I could always just cut off the sub section and have the original design of the the 3-ways intact.

Jacob is exactly right about how it is all hooked up.
I currently cross the subs at anywhere from 60-120hz depending on what I am listening to. 90% of the time they are crossed at 75hz.

Honestly though, as much as I'd like to I don't have any more room to make a large 5 sub cab. That's why I was thinking 2 cabinets with opposing drivers.

Tv stand sub won't work. I have a dlp tv that uses a $600cdn bulb. I don't want to take the chance of vibration as little as it is killing the bulb.

Mike

[kingpin]

Are you needing models to size the boxes?

Thanks Ryan.
I will try to model things myself first in Winisd as Unibox didn't seem to work out for me before.
After I come up with some #'s then you guys can tell me if I am alright.

Mike

[Brian Bunge]

Honestly though, as much as I'd like to I don't have any more room to make a large 5 sub cab. That's why I was thinking 2 cabinets with opposing drivers.

Tv stand sub won't work. I have a dlp tv that uses a $600cdn bulb. I don't want to take the chance of vibration as little as it is killing the bulb.

Mike

You could do the TV stand sub if you had two drivers on the front and two on the back like you want to do with 2 separate cabinets. I put 4 of the RS 15" HO's in a single cabinet (2 front, 2 back) and was able to stand a nickle on edge without it falling over at pretty loud levels. I think your center channel will cause more vibration than the subs would.

[sprint_9]

Not sure if this will work for your app, but Ill throw it out anyhow.

Judging from the pic you have in your avatar if the main speakers can be made shawlow enough then you could maybe if you have enough room put two subs on each side and have them face the back wall

Heres a quick sketch of what Im trying to get across, box sizes may not match up like this but you get the idea.

Image not available

[robertwb70]

I'd be really tempted to just make the driver layout symmetrical -like the old dunlavy speakers. Then your subs are close to the roof/ floor for boundary reinforcement and a slight down tilt could aim the center of the center array at the listening height.

Worst case you'd have to junk the front baffle and re-partition the cabinet but since that's all internal it doesn't have to be pretty, just effective.

But that's just from looking at the pictures and I have no idea how the bracing and partitions are inside the original 3 ways.

[Jonasz]

Just what I was thinking...

Btw, why not incorporate Jon's new 3-ways (with the RS-52) when you're at it?? I'm sure he would make a version with the RS28 for you, I would be interested too! :P

[kingpin]

Hey guys, soory to have not responded for so long.
I have decided between 2 designs and drivers.

One question though?
Is there a difference in sound between a dual sub cabinet with fron and rear firing speakers as oppoesed to 2 front firing speakers.

The design will either be 2 12's front firing or 1 front and rear firing or per side.

Or.

If, and it's a big if, I can sell the 12's I will use 2 Mach5 audio IXL 18's. One per side beside each speaker.

How would 2 of those big 18's sound per side in probably a ported box or a sealed. Still undecided.

Mike

P.S. Sorry for the grammar. I can barely see the keyboard after night-shift.

[jkrueger]

315HF for sale?

Hey Kingpin

I am pushing too many keys too quickly here. What I am trying to ask you is if you are really selling the subs? If you are.....How much?

Jon

[kingpin]

oops. meant to be a pm.

[---k---]

Mike,

The only difference between two front firing and two opposing drivers, would be that the opposing drivers would act opposite each other and mechanically cancel out vibrations, therefore you can theoretically build a less stiff cabinet. Sound quality should be the same - maybe some very slight differences. Mainly because under 80hz, direction and phase aren't as much of an issue.

Ported boxed will get very large. Figure 300L for a single 15" and, oh I don't know, 500L for the single 18". My RL-p15 sealed was like 100L.

Sound quality wise, ported does give up something against sealed, but it is a tradeoff. I think my big ported sounds great, I'm willing to live with the theoretical loss in SQ for the low end rumble. Holy wars have been fought over the differences. Build both and decide!

[kingpin]

Thanks Ryan.

I am off to sleep.
Somebody buy these already. HEHE

They are in the for sale section now.

Mike

[---k---]

Addict!

[cjd]

I'd be really tempted to just make the driver layout symmetrical.

This would be an ideal topology for the 4-way driver set used, but it would take crossover changes - the change in boundary loading conditions on the RS270s are enough that I'd be hesitant otherwise - in fact, this was discussed way back when kingpin first proposed this project.

I'm also of the opinion that anyone wanting to do this will be far better off starting with Ryan's new project. For a great many reasons. Assuming we manage to get it to come together properly. But I think the RS225 covers deep enough to be a perfect match in a 4-way with attached subs.

The RS28A is the weak link with respect to power handling in my WWMTM. I've contemplated adding a waveguide or pushing it up to a 4-way with the RS52 in there. But, those are all new projects and curiousities beyond my desire to build new stuff. Particularly when what I have works superbly for my listening (clarity and accuracy being my top requirements I think).

So, guys... get some measurement tools, build some cabinets, and learn to measure! I (and others) are happy to work on crossovers if you don't feel like doing that, but getting measurements is what holds all the random ideas everyone has back. It gets tiresome to see all the sideline coaching.

C

[Brian Bunge]

The RS28A is the weak link with respect to power handling in my WWMTM. I've contemplated adding a waveguide or pushing it up to a 4-way with the RS52 in there. But, those are all new projects and curiousities beyond my desire to build new stuff. Particularly when what I have works superbly for my listening (clarity and accuracy being my top requirements I think).

This brings up an idea I had the other day. Would we gain anything by stepping up to a more robust tweeter, such as the Seas Excel? Or do you think going with a waveguide along with the RS28a would be a better approach?

So, guys... get some measurement tools, build some cabinets, and learn to measure! I (and others) are happy to work on crossovers if you don't feel like doing that, but getting measurements is what holds all the random ideas everyone has back. It gets tiresome to see all the sideline coaching.

C

Point taken. I plan on doing just that very soon. I've got the equipment, but now I have someone local to help me out and compare measurements against his setup.

[cjd]

I know you've had plans to do this. Not everyone does, but look at Jed's thread for all the random ideas people have (are they even going to BUILD such a beast if someone were to go to the effort of designing it?) It's not the ideas - it's the "you shoulda/coulda done this instead" stuff with NO intention of any real personal interest in the result by those suggesting.

As far as I know, the Millenium has more excursion than the RS28A, and that might help some. Not sure what other tweeters have more excursion. It's not like it's being crossed *that* low - you can push it to over 100dB and that's pretty darned loud IMHO. For the number of people building them, how many will even have the hundreds of watts of clean power up to pushing a <3ohm load that far? A waveguide might make more sense - I think it could even drop into the existing box with only baffle modifications. But even that, I just don't have the personal energy/interest in doing - again, what I've got works so well for my needs.

As to kingpin's bass issues, I'd be willing to bet it's a phase problem or a room problem. Tilting speakers won't change bass response, since it's non-directional. A room boundary is a room boundary (ceiling vs floor for sub loading). He was missing the more direct midbass frequencies with the woofers up in the air, which is why there was such a dramatic shift flipping the speakers. Putting the subs elsewhere in the room will add a lot of flexibility to dealing with room issues.

C

[Jed]

I know you've had plans to do this. Not everyone does, but look at Jed's thread for all the random ideas people have (are they even going to BUILD such a beast if someone were to go to the effort of designing it?)

Perhaps some folks are missing the point to my thread. (filling a missing niche in accomplished designs). It has gotten a lot of participation and as the thread evolved from the initial brainstorming, I'd say a lot of the "random" ideas became more concrete, and hopefully we all learned something. It was and still is an opportunity to express creative ideas based on a subset of design parameters voiced by the DIY community, and to see where it will all end up. Not sure how many people will build one of the designs, but that's not the {end} of the road for me; that is, when it comes to my continuation in the creative process. It's also fun to see all the different ideas come together, at least for me. Just my 2 cents.

[cjd]

Jed: I saw your thread more as a "I don't know what to do, so help me pick" thing.

C

[kingpin]

Addict!

Aw man. How can you say that to a htguide brother. :B
Now I am going to have just regular speakers.
Wait, hold on I didn't say that Chris and Brian. :E
I meant regular size speakers. Whew. :T

The worst part is that patience isn't one of my strong points or I would just keep the towers the way they are and buy new subs outright. I just don't see the point in that.

Besides. The 3-ways deserve a stage of their very own. I think they are that good.

I wonder if they will sound different without the added baffle of the subs.

Mike

[kingpin]

Alright 2 Daytons sold.
2 Left.
C'mon guys. I need to feed my addiction.

Mike

[sprint_9]

So, guys... get some measurement tools, build some cabinets, and learn to measure! I (and others) are happy to work on crossovers if you don't feel like doing that, but getting measurements is what holds all the random ideas everyone has back. It gets tiresome to see all the sideline coaching.

Ahh yes, if I had only an idea where to start, as Thomas told me in the Tool thread, Search. I might just find a starting point on what is needed to measure as I have not the slightest clue.

Anyhow back on subject, sent a PM on the subs.

[kingpin]

They've been mini-me'd

Well they have been cut down. :E :E
Only thing is I forgot to snap a pic after they were both done and finished.

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Anybody for Quad 12's. :B

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Both cut down.

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I have sold all 4 Dayton 12" subs and will be ordering 1 if not 2 Mach 5 18"IXL's. I will just have to find a place to put them now. :B

I think I have really gone crazy now. My buddy couldn't beleive that I was cutting down the towers. Although after he helped me carry them outside he was happy I was.

Also due to unforeseen circumstances I will be moving back to my parents place and helping them out with the bills.

Mike

[kingpin]

I just snapped some pics of the mini-me's.
I still have to sand the top down to clean them up and finish them.
Bright side to all this is the veneering should be much easier and cheaper.

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The residue you see around the tweeter in a square shape is from the heavy duty carpet tape that I use to hold the felt around the tweeter.

Mike

[opt-e]

Omigosh they've been amputated 8O
It's too bad these didn't work out the way you wanted, I really liked the look.

[sprint_9]

Glad to see you sold the subs without a hitch. So in cutting that portion off will the amputated part be on the floor or on the top of the speaker?

[kingpin]

The top is where the cut is made. I have to clean it up with my orbital sander when I get home. There is some poly glue there still from where the braces were.

I will also have to fill a couple of areas where a little bit of the mdf peeled off. Probably going to use bondo.

I wonder if there is such thing as oderless bondo?

Mike