Boinger's Bordeaux Build

[boinger]

I woke up and realized I didn't ask some basic questions. When you say heavy load, what kind of music, how loud and in what size room? What music were you playing when the amp shut down and how loud? Do you have a DB meter?

In a normal size room, the Bordeaux will reach about a maximum of 112-115 db with normal bass. If you're playing super low bass heavy music at extremely high volumes, it is possible to exceed the amps capability and that of the speaker.

Another builder is driving his with a 100 watt tube amp so it definitely not that hard of load to drive at normal listening levels which I consider to be 100 DB or less. That's extremely loud.

Jim

The room size is probably 15x40x8 the dB was probably around 90 not sure for a fact. Listening and measure distance was about 12ft.

The music was not overly bass heavy I'd say about normal.

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[boinger]

"The common wires are okay to touch correct?"

"I put electric tape on the crimp terminal spades to give it some protection but not for the - wires as I figured they were common. They only have about a papers width clearance"

Which wires are touching, or close to touching. I'm not sure your level of comfort with electronics, that's why I'm asking.

When you say common, do you mean negative or common to a node?

They aren't touching but are very close so maybe at loud volumes the vibration could make them touch.

The wires are negative to the crossover.

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[Jim Holtz]

The room size is probably 15x40x8 the dB was probably around 90 not sure for a fact. Listening and measure distance was about 12ft.

The music was not overly bass heavy I'd say about normal.

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The Bordeaux won't break a sweat at 90 or 100 DB so that's not an issue. I'm assuming it was 90 db at a normal listening distance and not 40' away.

I'd suggest to check with just a single speaker connected as I indicated previously indicated tonight and see if you can isolate the issue to one speaker.

Jim

[boinger]

The Bordeaux won't break a sweat at 90 or 100 DB so that's not an issue. I'm assuming it was 90 db at a normal listening distance and not 40' away.

I'd suggest to check with just a single speaker connected as I indicated previously indicated tonight and see if you can isolate the issue to one speaker.

Jim

Yep as I said the measured dB was at our listening position at 12-13ft

I will do a troubleshooting run and see how it goes tonight.

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[boinger]

So I did some tests today I put some tape around the connectors on the neutrik and the Amp isn't going into the protection mode anymore.

But now when I push them to 92 dB at listening distance I hear pops from the speakers like a firecracker. Randomly and not consistent.

Is that just over driving the driver?

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[Jim Holtz]

So I did some tests today I put some tape around the connectors on the neutrik and the Amp isn't going into the protection mode anymore.

But now when I push them to 92 dB at listening distance I hear pops from the speakers like a firecracker. Randomly and not consistent.

Is that just over driving the driver?

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Yes, you're bottoming the bass drivers. This will ruin the drivers with continued bottoming. They do have a 5 year warranty but a pain to have to exchange them. That has to have some super low bass in the music you're playing to bottom at 90 DB! What is the track you're playing?

BTW, great news on finding the protection issue. Good job!

Jim

[boinger]

I was listening to shpongle - shpongle spores.

But it was bottoming on other tracks too.

Only happened a few times.


I can hear audible distortion on two of the drivers at even low volumes though. When I put my ear right up against the driver. The other two seem to be fine.

And one speaker was popping more than the other. For example same track the left channel wouldn't pop at all. But the right channel would.





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[Jim Holtz]

I was listening to shpongle - shpongle spores.

But it was bottoming on other tracks too.

Only happened a few times.

I can hear audible distortion on two of the drivers at even low volumes though. When I put my ear right up against the driver. The other two seem to be fine.

And one speaker was popping more than the other. For example same track the left channel wouldn't pop at all. But the right channel would.

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I listened to the song on Amazon. It's a nice song but it has some very low bass in it. The bad news is, based on what you're hearing, two of the drivers are toast. They need to be replaced. I'd suggest you get in touch with Mark and work it out with him.

Here's a graph from Unibox that'll give you a good indication of what you can expect from (2) Rs225's.



This graph is not based on a listening position of 12' or more but is based on one meter

I'd suggest you move forward with a sub if your listening tastes are low bass and cranked a bit. Roll the sub(s) in at 50-60 Hz. and you'll be able to crank them hard without damage. The Bordeaux will be good for 112+ at 50-60 Hz. without damage.

HTH

Jim

[TEK]

Jim, I’m a bit curious about this, but it might be a question more suited for Curt (or other that works with crossover design).

This problem of bottom out the bass drivers. I have seen it mentioned in some other DIY designs as well.
I cannot remember to have heard mutch about it for commersial speakers - but it might just be that I’m not looking in those forums.

What I’m wondering about is if it is possible to add some kind of safty to prevent this.

[Heli-Tim]

TEK,
I'm in the same boat. There are a few creative types over on a other audio site I frequent (for amplifier builds, etc.) who design their own protection. Not sure if anyone has looked at protecting the speaker through the speaker itself. I know of a guy who uses a microcontroller to protect the amp and speakers from a variety of common problems through a daughter board inside of his amplifiers.

This is the route I plan on using , although I do have the advantage of building my own amp.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, I’m a bit curious about this, but it might be a question more suited for Curt (or other that works with crossover design).

This problem of bottom out the bass drivers. I have seen it mentioned in some other DIY designs as well.
I cannot remember to have heard mutch about it for commersial speakers - but it might just be that I’m not looking in those forums.

What I’m wondering about is if it is possible to add some kind of safty to prevent this.

Hi TEK,

Curt could answer the question of speaker protection, I can't. I've never been interested in it because I'm a bit OCD about the signal path. I want it as clean and simple as possible. However I can share personal experience. A good friend of mine had Legacy Signature III's that are noted for high SPL capability and he took out (2) of the 4 mids with high volumes and bass heavy music. Since it was the mids (Eaton), that tells me its the crossover point selected by Legacy rather than a bass driver issue. It's not that uncommon in commercial speakers. Typically it's less expensive speakers that get beat on. As the price goes up, the expectation of quality sound goes up rather than the volume control. If your tastes run to low bass and high volumes a sub is the answer. X-max is the answer. But, X-max and sound quality do not go hand in hand if your seeking audiophile quality sound.

My audio roots are in the audiophile community. My DIY journey was to create my own and be better than anything I could afford at the local audio boutique. Sound quality has always been the driving force behind the designs Curt and I have created. I'm a blues, jazz and some pop/rock fan and only if it's well recorded. My normal listening volume is rarely above 85 DB and I don't listen to very low bass. I'm normal in the audiophile groups but might not be in others that are focused on how loud they go. 8O

There have been well over 2000 (we quit counting) Statements, Finalists, Anthology's and now Bordeaux built around the world in the last 12 years and driver issues have been few and very far between.

Now that was waaaay more than what you probably wanted to know! :W

Jim

[theSven]

Love to see numbers this high for these builds! Go DIY!!!!

[TEK]

I knew there were quite a number of statements build, but I must admit that I was thinking like 10-100...
That’s very cool to hear!

[tktran]

This is a good page about speakers and power “handling”

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/power-handling.htm

Jim’s graph is useful but as usual, the are a few ways of interpreting this:

1) the speaker can “handle 160W”, but only where the red line is above the blue line. ie. above 70Hz
2) in the low bass- eg. 30Hz, the speakers physical Xmax limitation is 10 dB less than what it would play if fed 160W...
3) the power handling at 30Hz is limited to about 16 watts.

This is all technical jargon, but the sensible approach is-

Turn it down if you hear audible distortion.

[Dave Bullet]

It's quite easy to bottom out woofers on tracks with below tuning frequency content with not many watts. It depends on how much of a purist you are and whether you want to use an EQ or somesuch passive or active line filter in the signal path to highpass these troublesome bass frequencies.

I went the EQ path. I honestly can't tell the difference between the EQ in or out of circuit. My streamer auto-selects the EQ based on the music playing (I tell it as I'm listening to a track and it restores the correct EQ when that track next plays). I also use this for some recordings my speakers are less favourable on.

[Heli-Tim]

Is it possible or likely that the same wire fault that was causing the protection to engage caused the damage to the speakers?

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but my gut says that somewhere in the 2000+ builds with similar woofer design (speaker design works) there must have been a few people who have tried to push the limits.

Just a thought.

[boinger]

I noticed a rattling when I first turned on the driver I thought it was some vibration from things near the speaker but it turned out it was coming from the driver itself.

This was before I turned it loud same noise.

Probably why some were distorting vs the other 2 drivers are not.



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[Dave Bullet]

It's unusual a driver ships with a QC problem but it does happen, or could I suppose get damaged in transit.

I usually break drivers in (gently) and use a sine wave generator to sweep them to make sure there's no rubbing or other such issues.

You don't even have to use a subsonic frequency to listen to motor issues - since the backwave cancels the front when measuring free standing, plus listening at 90 degrees.

I also do an impedance sweep as any motor issues may manifest there - and compare drivers to find if I have one that is "out of spec".

[boinger]

Hi Dave,

That is interesting I don't really know much about drivers etc. as this is my first build.

But it sounds exactly like the driver is rubbing on something.

[Dave Bullet]

PS: Thanks for the tip on shpongle. I'm really digging his / their (?) tracks at the moment. Will buy me some albums :-). The live shows are brilliant as well. Watched a 2013 performance. The costumery and the "person in a slinky" was a cool effect

[boinger]

PS: Thanks for the tip on shpongle. I'm really digging his / their (?) tracks at the moment. Will buy me some albums :-). The live shows are brilliant as well. Watched a 2013 performance. The costumery and the "person in a slinky" was a cool effect

Oh glad you like them. They are by far my favorite artists two man group. They have a unique sound that I haven't found replicated anywhere else.

Check out

Are you Shpongled / Tales of the inexpressible

2 of my favorite albums.

I have been wanting to go to their live shoes forever. Haven't had the chance yet.

If you like them maybe you will like

Phutureprimitive - Hyper-Sense

Pretty nice track, let me know what you think.

[Dave Bullet]

Oh glad you like them. They are by far my favorite artists two man group. They have a unique sound that I haven't found replicated anywhere else.

Check out

Are you Shpongled / Tales of the inexpressible

2 of my favorite albums.

I have been wanting to go to their live shoes forever. Haven't had the chance yet.

If you like them maybe you will like

Phutureprimitive - Hyper-Sense

Pretty nice track, let me know what you think.

Thanks for the tips! I don't know if Shpongle is on Spotify as I don't subscribe and I'm sure that would be a good way to suggest similar artists for me to listen to. I have been a long time Yello fan for example. Using the human voice as a noise instrument (whether sampling or live) has always appealed to me and seems to support instrumentals which I quite like (I find human voices get in the way sometimes ;-)

I'll play shpongle spores on my system and see what it does to the bottom end. I run fully sealed however.

[jacket_fan]

Not sure if you have worked the driver issues or not, but I built ant tested out the Bordeauxs and found no issues with driving them to fairly high SPL levels. I did cross them over at 60 hz though.

I think the bass boxes do a great job of reproduction of low frequencies, but found crossing them over to subs was a better fit for me.

[boinger]

Not sure if you have worked the driver issues or not, but I built ant tested out the Bordeauxs and found no issues with driving them to fairly high SPL levels. I did cross them over at 60 hz though.

I think the bass boxes do a great job of reproduction of low frequencies, but found crossing them over to subs was a better fit for me.

You know I think it was just a driver issue, as only 2 of the 4 woofers were distorting. And I measured the db from 1 meter and it was only touching 100 when I was encountering distortion. So it seems like I wasn't pushing them too hard.

I also have them crossed to my subwoofer at 60 hz on my marantz. Still was getting a loud popping noise.

[jacket_fan]

I am surprised you are having driver issues. Dayton drivers seem to be pretty bullet proof.

[Efalegalo]

Not sure if you were going to veneer or paint, but I'm digging the black drivers against the light birch cabinet.

I just started on my build and hadn't decided whether I'm going to veneer or paint - but now I might just finish the birch cabinets as is (kinda like all the builds on Troels G.'s website).

[boinger]

These speakers are for my parents.

I have been trying to convince my dad to go glossy white I think that will look really nice. But he is traditional and wants black speakers.

Here is how they look primed.



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[boinger]

Where do you guys get speaker feet from not spikes.

Another update



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[bobyoungren]

I used these for my Statements II build.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-drfs1-1-3-8-x-1-heavy-duty-rubber-feet-4-pcs--240-712

[sdl2112]

Here’s another option i’m happy with.

https://www.amazon.com/Slipstick-CB505-Furniture-Protector-Chocolate/dp/B000QYAW26

[boinger]

Hi Jim,

I saw it in another thread but can't find it atm what do you use for clear coats?

And also my statement ii center the voices sounded very echoey do I need more polyfill?

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[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

I saw it in another thread but can't find it atm what do you use for clear coats?

And also my statement ii center the voices sounded very echoey do I need more polyfill?

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I'm a big fan of Crystalac. I'm not sure what your base coats are but if you choose to use Crystalac, check with them to see what they recommend.

If the center sounds echoey,my money would be on the mids wired out of phase. I'd suggest you check your wiring on the crossover.

HTH

Jim

[boinger]

Finished build pics attached.







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[sdl2112]

They turned out great! You must tell how you did the black finish....and how they sound. Overall great job.

[boinger]

They turned out great! You must tell how you did the black finish....and how they sound. Overall great job.

Thank you. They sound amazing, some of the tracks I listened to compared to our old speakers were just a night and day difference.

The black finish was very confusing..

I kept trying to find information on how to get a piano black finish, but it was very varied and so many different techniques.

We had used some black paint from sherwin williams and was trying to figure out how to clear coat it. We weren't really sure what would go on top of the paint without lifting or dissolving the paint.

Since we were unsure we basically just went back to basics. Did a shellac finish for the gloss layer with a french polish to get the glossy look. Apparently shellac works on literally everything. Just doesn't take kindly to water and damages easy. But I figured I am not planning to wet the speakers or be rough with them so it should be okay.

Also apparently shellac finishes are really easy to spot repair should the need ever arise. You don't have to re-sand and refinish the whole thing.

[Jim Holtz]

They turned out beautiful! Great job! :T

I'm very pleased that you're happy with the sound quality.

Jim

[Supernova]

Nice work. The finish looks great, better than the professional job I had done on the Finalists. Is that an RSW-15?

[boinger]

Thank you for the compliment. I think it is a rsw 15 but I am not sure we bought it close to 20 years ago or something it was the klipsch reference 15 subwoofer. Don't know the exact model number but I can look it up when I go there next.

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[Heli-Tim]

Enjoyed this thread. Congratulations on a beautiful pair of speakers!

[Supernova]

Thank you for the compliment. I think it is a rsw 15 but I am not sure we bought it close to 20 years ago or something it was the klipsch reference 15 subwoofer. Don't know the exact model number but I can look it up when I go there next.

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Cool. I have an RSW-15 at my house along with RB-75 system. However that's been upgraded all to DIY. That's a good sub though.

[jacket_fan]

boinger, the finish does look great. I think a piano black finish is the most challenging finish. You pulled it off well.

[Efalegalo]

Boinger,

Any chance you can take measurements of your speakers and post your results? I just finished building the top cabinet and want to make sure I built the crossover correctly.

[boinger]

Cool. I have an RSW-15 at my house along with RB-75 system. However that's been upgraded all to DIY. That's a good sub though.

Yeah I do think it needs an upgrade though to keep up with the Bordeaux's I want to diy 2 new subs for .2 but have yet to pick a design.

boinger, the finish does look great. I think a piano black finish is the most challenging finish. You pulled it off well.

Thank you very much.

Boinger,

Any chance you can take measurements of your speakers and post your results? I just finished building the top cabinet and want to make sure I built the crossover correctly.

I don't have any measuring equipment currently I do plan to buy some at a later date at which point I can take some in room measurements for you.

What seems to be the problem. I made a mistake myself and had wired the midrange out of phase which made it sound echoey and recessed.

[Efalegalo]

More Bass

The mids sound great although I will be honest I was expecting more bass. For the cabinet volume.

Boinger,

I had the same experience.

Try this: remove the inner tube of the port, leaving just the flares end to end.

It should be a 5-minute exercise.

If you try it - let me know what you think.

It made a HUGE difference for me. See the predicted difference below (grey = 5" inner tube, red= no inner tube).

- D