Boinger's Bordeaux Build

[boinger]

Ok that should work then I can't find a 3/4 inch round over bit for my router 1/4 inch shank.

Planning to paint

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[boinger]

What would be better a 45 deg chamfer or a 1/2 inch round over for the inside baffle?

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[Jim Holtz]

What would be better a 45 deg chamfer or a 1/2 inch round over for the inside baffle?

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This is just a SWAG but I'd think the 45 inside would be better but that's just a guess.

Just a thought, since you're painting, I designed the cabinets so all of the seams are on the top, bottom and back. The most visible is the top. I found 1/8" MDF that I apply to the top and back which covers all of the nasty seams. Painting goes much better!

Also, Oakwood Veneers has a new product out that applies like veneer and covers the seams. It is designed to be painted and eliminate the seams showing through.

HTH

Jim

[boinger]

Hi Jim,

My home depot only had 5 7/8 inch ID pvc pipe would this work or is 6 inch required I know you said it causes tunneling effect or something?

I am having trouble locating 6inch ID pvc pipe.

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[Leadfinger]

Hi boinger,

Try HD Store SO SKU #1000673250 for 6 in x 24 in pipe... This should work fine... Looks like you will need two pieces... Dave

[boinger]

I bought that exact one and it was a 5.9 inch inner diameter if that should work okay I am good to go.

Although I cut the supports for the 6 and 5/8 pipe but I can simply adjust those.

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[Jim Holtz]

6" or close will be fine. Mine only has 10' lengths so I have to cut it in half to get it to fit in mt SUV.

Jim

[boinger]

Ok in that case the pipe I have should be fine. Is it okay to mount the crossover behind the lower woofer in the large span and then cover the crossover with foam? Or do I leave them uncovered?

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[Jim Holtz]

Ok in that case the pipe I have should be fine. Is it okay to mount the crossover behind the lower woofer in the large span and then cover the crossover with foam? Or do I leave them uncovered?

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Uncovered.

Jim

[boinger]

Trying to decide crossover mounting if I mount where I have shown in the picture it won't cause bad reflections?

You didn't mean the lower chamber under the bracing at the very bottom did you? I could mount 3 boards on opposing sides theoretically but I wonder how easy that will be to access.





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[Jim Holtz]

I rarely take pictures of my crossovers because I build for functionality rather than beauty. But, here are couple pictures that might show how "I" do it.



These are pictures from the Finalists that may help. I build my crossovers on perf board so air will pass through and I can zip tie components in place. I then simply position the completed crossover on the brace (in the Bordeaux) or on the floor of the cabinet in smaller speakers and use a screw or two to hold the board in place. There's no rocket science just keep it from bounciing around. I also try to hold back from the rear of the driver if possible.

I'd suggest you attach the crossovers from Meniscus to perf board which is cut to pass through the lower RS225 driver cut out and attach it to the shelf brace with a couple screws towards the back of the cabinet.

HTH

Jim

[boinger]

I didn't have the perf board. So I just mounted them in the lower chamber. A little harder to get to but they fit I was worried about blocking the airflow and not having foam on the side wall.

Some progress.















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[Jim Holtz]

Lookin' good! :T

Make sure the crossover doesn't block air flow to the port.

Jim

[boinger]

Lookin' good! :T

Make sure the crossover doesn't block air flow to the port.

Jim

Yea I left as much clearance as I could. Nothing is directly in front of the port.


Another picture I attached is the foam too close to the driver or is it okay?

I wasn't sure if you went 2 inch from the rear baffle or the front?





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[Jim Holtz]

looks good to me!

EDIT: BTW, the foam should be held back from the inside of the front baffle. It's much less critical with larger drivers like the RS225's but still helpful. It is very important for smaller drivers. Be sure to read the build tips document you received with the kit from Meniscus. Many of the conversations we've been having are covered in this document. If you don't have it I can send it to you.

Jim

[boinger]

Quick question should the screws be protruding when mounting into the baffle?

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[Jim Holtz]

Quick question should the screws be protruding when mounting into the baffle?

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There isn't an audible impact either way so do what ever you think looks best.

I would suggest #8 deep coarse thread screws. IMHO, they hold the best. Pick flat top or rounded, your choice.

Jim

[boinger]

I talked to the guys at meniscus audio,

They told me that the center tube should only be 7inc dacron rolled up with no 1 inch foam lining. Is this correct because the instructions say 1 inch foam lining. I am wondering if they just didn't send me the foam.

And where could I buy it locally anything specific?

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[boinger]

The mids sound great although I will be honest I was expecting more bass. For the cabinet volume.







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[Jim Holtz]

I talked to the guys at meniscus audio,

They told me that the center tube should only be 7inc dacron rolled up with no 1 inch foam lining. Is this correct because the instructions say 1 inch foam lining. I am wondering if they just didn't send me the foam.

And where could I buy it locally anything specific?

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The flat foam is available from Hobby Lobby as is a bag of poly-fill in their upholstery section. Curt came up with the 4" foam plug. He suggested that builders simply cut 4 pieces of 1" foam 6"in diameter for the back of the tube or simply cut a 1" foam liner from the back of the speaker up to about 2" from the rear of the C158 driver. Then cut smaller 1" foam plugs for the 4" length. The handful of poly-fill sits right in front of the 4" plug but doesn't touch the rear of the driver. All of the foam has to be open cell which means you can blow through it. You can get creative in the combinations to come up with the correct combination.

Here's what I included in the build tips;

The foam is different on the Bordeaux than other designs we’ve done with an open back. The 1” flat foam in the mid tunnel should be held back from the inner front of the cabinet about 1 ½” to 2” with a 45 degree bevel on the driver end. Then create a 4” x 6” foam plug out of the wedge foam that will sit flush with the back of the cabinet. Finally, a good sized handful of poly fill should be placed in front of the foam plug but not touching the rear of the C158. That’s the combination that gave the right balance.

HTH

Jim

[boinger]

Oh I understood the foam requirements.

I was just stating the foam sent in the kit was differe t so I don't know if they had some updated directions.

They told me to roll up dacron and put in the mid tunnel in front of the foam plug but without the 1" flat foam.

I understood that I was supposed to do the flat foam and the dacron and the foam plug.

Right now I only have the foam plug and the dacron.

So from what I understood based on your directions there were no design or instruction changes.

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[Jim Holtz]

I just saw your pictures and comments. Let them play about 20 hours ( yes, really ) before you do any serious listening. The bass may be different than what you're used to. It is very low distortion and flat. It doesn't have the the mid bass bloom that many commercial speakers have that gives the impression of "big bass".

BTW, the mids will get better after you move the old speakers so the Bordeaux can breathe. The rear of the mid cabinet will allow them to sound best with 18" from the rear wall. That should position the back of the bass cabinet about 10" from the rear wall.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Oh I understood the foam requirements.

I was just stating the foam sent in the kit was differe t so I don't know if they had some updated directions.

They told me to roll up dacron and put in the mid tunnel in front of the foam plug but without the 1" flat foam.

I understood that I was supposed to do the flat foam and the dacron and the foam plug.

Right now I only have the foam plug and the dacron.

So from what I understood based on your directions there were no design or instruction changes.

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Hmmm... I'll have to talk to Mark. The recommended foam hasn't changed from the original development. I'd suggest you follow our recommendation for the best sound quality.

Jim

[boinger]

I just saw your pictures and comments. Let them play about 20 hours ( yes, really ) before you do any serious listening. The bass may be different than what you're used to. It is very low distortion and flat. It doesn't have the the mid bass bloom that many commercial speakers have that gives the impression of "big bass".

BTW, the mids will get better after you move the old speakers so the Bordeaux can breathe. The rear of the mid cabinet will allow them to sound best with 18" from the rear wall. That should position the back of the bass cabinet about 10" from the rear wall.

Jim

Oh that should make a big difference I think I have them pulled out about 18" from the bass cabinet. I could already tell the bass is much cleaner than my old speakers Much lower distortion than they had. I think it was just my expectations were different in terms of the bass. It did sound good don't get me wrong.

I was just expecting more due to the big cabinet lol ( I am quite a bass head), but the quality was very nice.

[Jim Holtz]

Oh that should make a big difference I think I have them pulled out about 18" from the bass cabinet. I could already tell the bass is much cleaner than my old speakers Much lower distortion than they had. I think it was just my expectations were different in terms of the bass. It did sound good don't get me wrong.

I was just expecting more due to the big cabinet lol ( I am quite a bass head), but the quality was very nice.

Nope, I didn't take it wrong at all. I've also been called a bass head. 8O I do have two 15" subs I roll in for home theater but not for music. I'm a jazz and blues rock fan and the Statements/Anthology's/Bordeaux all provide the quality bass and quantity of bass I enjoy with music. Home theater is a different discussion. How can you have too much of an explosion?

I think after 20 hours or so of breakin, play with the foam/poly-fill and get the positioning right, they'll sound the way they're designed. For critical listening, I'd suggest you select top notch recordings. I don't know what your front end source components are but the Bordeaux will not be the weak link in your music chain. My opinion of course... :W

Enjoy! I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after everything is sorted out.

Jim

[Dave Bullet]

Nope, I didn't take it wrong at all. I've also been called a bass head. 8O I do have two 15" subs I roll in for home theater but not for music. I'm a jazz and blues rock fan and the Statements/Anthology's/Bordeaux all provide the quality bass and quantity of bass I enjoy with music. Home theater is a different discussion. How can you have too much of an explosion?

I think after 20 hours or so of breakin, play with the foam/poly-fill and get the positioning right, they'll sound the way they're designed. For critical listening, I'd suggest you select top notch recordings. I don't know what your front end source components are but the Bordeaux will not be the weak link in your music chain. My opinion of course... :W

Enjoy! I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after everything is sorted out.

Jim

I'd second this on a quality pair of speakers.

During break-in, your ears (more specifically brain) will also adjust to how they sound. you might find some of your favourite musicians / recordings are badly mastered. Conversely, some albums where lesser speakers lose composure, the Bordeauxs will add clarity and separation and reveal the complexity to you. You'll find the difference between the same track, mastered differently across albums. For example, original albums fare better on high dynamic range and haven't suffered the "loudness wars" that have enveloped the "re-mastering" processes and compilation albums of late.

I accumulated a lot of "best of" / compilation CDs in previous years to save money. I am now replacing these with the original recordings where possible, as they just sound a lot better. Probably why we've had a vinyl / tape resurgence.

[boinger]

Nope, I didn't take it wrong at all. I've also been called a bass head. 8O I do have two 15" subs I roll in for home theater but not for music. I'm a jazz and blues rock fan and the Statements/Anthology's/Bordeaux all provide the quality bass and quantity of bass I enjoy with music. Home theater is a different discussion. How can you have too much of an explosion?

I think after 20 hours or so of breakin, play with the foam/poly-fill and get the positioning right, they'll sound the way they're designed. For critical listening, I'd suggest you select top notch recordings. I don't know what your front end source components are but the Bordeaux will not be the weak link in your music chain. My opinion of course... :W

Enjoy! I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts after everything is sorted out.

Jim

I am using a Marantz av7702 processor with a Marantz 7 channel amp I forget the exact model and an Emotiva XPA-2. The XPA-2 is what is driving the Bordeaux. I was debating connecting my dac (Schiit Yggdrasil) on my computer system to the Bordeaux just for curiosity to see the difference in sound.

What subs are you using? I currently have an old klispch 15" bought in 99' sub I was thinking of getting rid of that and adding dual subs or something.

I'd second this on a quality pair of speakers.

During break-in, your ears (more specifically brain) will also adjust to how they sound. you might find some of your favourite musicians / recordings are badly mastered. Conversely, some albums where lesser speakers lose composure, the Bordeauxs will add clarity and separation and reveal the complexity to you. You'll find the difference between the same track, mastered differently across albums. For example, original albums fare better on high dynamic range and haven't suffered the "loudness wars" that have enveloped the "re-mastering" processes and compilation albums of late.

I accumulated a lot of "best of" / compilation CDs in previous years to save money. I am now replacing these with the original recordings where possible, as they just sound a lot better. Probably why we've had a vinyl / tape resurgence.

Yea I have my standard bit of test tracks I go through. I always notice new things whenever I change equipment.

[Jim Holtz]

The XPA-2 is a good choice. Very clean and powerful. My impressions have been that Marantz has good preamp circuitry compared to other receivers. However, once you get the Bordeaux broken in and everything sorted out, it would be fun to do an A/B comparison with the Schitt DAC vs the ones in the Marantz.

My subs are from now out of business DIY Cable. They're Tempest X-2 with the XBL motor. I like them a lot and hope they last me forever. I only use them for home theater though. I roll them in around 50 Hz. with an active crossover powered by a Behringer EP-4000 pro amp. It makes a good sub amp but I wouldn't use it to power the main speakers.

I don't have any recommendations for subs other than lots of x-max and as low of distortion driver as possible.

HTH

Jim

[boinger]

What do you think the Dayton ultimax 15"?

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[Jim Holtz]

What do you think the Dayton ultimax 15"?

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I've never owned one so I really can't comment beyond there are some threads in the PE Forum regarding quality control issues. You might post for feedback over there and see what is going on if anything.

One other thought, I think it's rated at 19mm of x-max which might be at the lower end of what you need if you get into loud very deep bass music or movies.

Jim

[boinger]

So my Bordeaux are tripping the protection circuit on my emotiva if I play them somewhat loud. Are they really that demanding? Or is something wrong with my crossover?

[Jim Holtz]

So my Bordeaux are tripping the protection circuit on my emotiva if I play them somewhat loud. Are they really that demanding? Or is something wrong with my crossover?

They're an easy load for a 4 ohm capable amp which your Emotiva is. It has tons of power. I'm guessing it's in the crossover. If I were you, I'd check all the connections particularly between the top module and the bass cabinet. I don't think Meniscus is using Neutrix connectors so I can't offer any advice. If you can't find any wiring errors, take a picture of the crossover boards with wiring connected and indicated where they go. The RS225's are wired in parallel which should be a 4 ohm load.

It really sounds like something is shorting out. Did it start all of a sudden?

Jim

[boinger]

They're an easy load for a 4 ohm capable amp which your Emotiva is. It has tons of power. I'm guessing it's in the crossover. If I were you, I'd check all the connections particularly between the top module and the bass cabinet. I don't think Meniscus is using Neutrix connectors so I can't offer any advice. If you can't find any wiring errors, take a picture of the crossover boards with wiring connected and indicated where they go. The RS225's are wired in parallel which should be a 4 ohm load.

It really sounds like something is shorting out. Did it start all of a sudden?

Jim

Only happens if I am starting to push the speakers. I am using neutrix connectors, I didn't use their speaker taps. Do you think on a high load they are arcing between each other? The spade plugs? I could prob just wrap them with electrical tape.

The common wires are okay to touch correct?

[Jim Holtz]

Only happens if I am starting to push the speakers. I am using neutrix connectors, I didn't use their speaker taps. Do you think on a high load they are arcing between each other? The spade plugs? I could prob just wrap them with electrical tape.

The common wires are okay to touch correct?

If it only happens on heavy loads, it sounds like an incorrect polarity. I would check to make sure the polarity is correct. The tweeter and the mid are reverse polarity which I believe Meniscus takes care of in the crossovers for both drivers. I'd suggest that you verify positive to positive and negative to negative per their layout connections to the drivers and connection diagram to make sure. None of the wiring should be touching on the connectors. If it's touching or is too close so it could vibrate adjust as necessary. It still sounds like a wiring issue with polarity.

Did the mids sound really recessed? Thats a dead give away.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

One more thing. Try disconnecting the speaker cables from the back of each speaker one at a time and test it to see if the amp shuts down with just one speaker connected and which one causes the shut down. That should help isolate which speaker has the issue.

Jim

[boinger]

I just wired where the driver went according to the printout meniscus gave. The mid's didn't sound recessed at all.

edit: They gave that crossover layout that you stick on the board. And that had where the mid + and - go etc. Let me post some pics.

[boinger]

Crossover photo







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[Jim Holtz]

Meniscus's layout looks simple enough.

I'm curious how you came out with disconnecting a speaker and testing for shut down.

Jim

[boinger]

Meniscus's layout looks simple enough.

I'm curious how you came out with disconnecting a speaker and testing for shut down.

Jim

I will have to try that tomorrow. The speakers were for my parents, so it is at their house. I am in my home now. Will update when I test some things tomorrow.

So the Mid + lead does go to the + on the speaker correct? I figured they would label it accurately for the inverse.

[Jim Holtz]

I will have to try that tomorrow. The speakers were for my parents, so it is at their house. I am in my home now. Will update when I test some things tomorrow.

So the Mid + lead does go to the + on the speaker correct? I figured they would label it accurately for the inverse.

Yes, the reverse polarity on the mids and tweeter is taken care of in the crossover. So, + goes to + and - goes to negative on the drivers and binding posts.

Are you combining the positive leads to the binding post and negative leads to the negative binding post? If there is anything touching between negative and positive would cause a shut down of the amp.

Jim

[boinger]

Yes, the reverse polarity on the mids and tweeter is taken care of in the crossover. So, + goes to + and - goes to negative on the drivers and binding posts.

Are you combining the positive leads to the binding post and negative leads to the negative binding post? If there is anything touching between negative and positive would cause a shut down of the amp.

Jim

I tried to be careful when wiring. I put electric tape on the crimp terminal spades to give it some protection but not for the - wires as I figured they were common. They only have about a papers width clearance hence why I wonder about the arcing.

Also I didn't put the tape in the woofer cabinet as the terminals seemed to have enough clearance .

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[Jim Holtz]

I tried to be careful when wiring. I put electric tape on the crimp terminal spades to give it some protection but not for the - wires as I figured they were common. They only have about a papers width clearance hence why I wonder about the arcing.

Also I didn't put the tape in the woofer cabinet as the terminals seemed to have enough clearance .

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I honestly can't imagine anything arcing. The Bordeaux are about 87-88 db and the impedance only drops to a little under 4 ohms at 90 Hz. I drive mine very easily with an Emotiva XPA-5 so it's very similar to the XPA-2.

I still think there may be a wiring issue and it may be in the neutrix connector. I'm brainstorming so I could be very off base.

Jim

[boinger]

I honestly can't imagine anything arcing. The Bordeaux are about 87-88 db and the impedance only drops to a little under 4 ohms at 90 Hz. I drive mine very easily with an Emotiva XPA-5 so it's very similar to the XPA-2.

I still think there may be a wiring issue and it may be in the neutrix connector. I'm brainstorming so I could be very off base.

Jim

I will do some checks tomorrow and I'll take my parasound amps as well for a sanity check.

Will do a once over with my multimeter as well.

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[Jim Holtz]

I woke up and realized I didn't ask some basic questions. When you say heavy load, what kind of music, how loud and in what size room? What music were you playing when the amp shut down and how loud? Do you have a DB meter?

In a normal size room, the Bordeaux will reach about a maximum of 112-115 db with normal bass. If you're playing super low bass heavy music at extremely high volumes, it is possible to exceed the amps capability and that of the speaker.

Another builder is driving his with a 100 watt tube amp so it definitely not that hard of load to drive at normal listening levels which I consider to be 100 DB or less. That's extremely loud.

Jim

[Heli-Tim]

"The common wires are okay to touch correct?"

"I put electric tape on the crimp terminal spades to give it some protection but not for the - wires as I figured they were common. They only have about a papers width clearance"

Which wires are touching, or close to touching. I'm not sure your level of comfort with electronics, that's why I'm asking.

When you say common, do you mean negative or common to a node?