Another Wavecor Ardent build

[Renron]

Wow, that's pretty Bob. Next week looks like the finish line for both of us as far as Veneering goes. Wahoo.
Glad things went well for you. Have you finished your XOs?
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron.

I haven't build crossovers yet. I'm in the same boat as you, waiting on Jon to work a revised XO into his schedule. I've got the -02 woofers, a couple dB less sensitive than the -01. I have purchased the Clarity MRs for the tweeter section. Other than that, its a holding patter. Jon mentioned something about flattening the treble response by changing the 4.7 µF cap to 3.9 µF so I may have an upgrade for my current speakers (handily the only tweeter cap is 4.7 µF).

If I'm ready before Jon gets to it, I'll start fully active using JRiver Media Center and either it's dsp capability or Frequency Allocator into an M-Audio interface. Allocator is interesting in that it includes a "phase arbitrator" that unwinds the phase wrap and gives transient perfect response with high order filters. I like the effect, but it's got a bit more delay built into the dsp than my Oppo can handle for lip sync correction. Music only. Class A amps in a camp with no air conditioning, music will be mostly evenings. The Claritys will protect the tweeter.

[BobEllis]

Well, that didn't go as planned. Sanding the edge of the newly applied front I sanded through the tip of one of the upper facets. Guess I'll try a dutchie but thinking I'm going to end up with a complete replacement. :cry::cry::cry::cry:

[TEK]

Jup, those edges are easy to sand trough...
I would have started out by attemting one of these methods:
- mix sawdust from the laminate with glue and fill the sand-trough with that
- cut away a small area around it and replace it with a extra piece.
If you go for this method you should make the cut at a 45 degree angle and the patch the same so that they will overlap.
Also, ensure that you pattern and color match the replacement bit with the arra around the patch.
With a veneer as lively and full of patterns as yours it should be quite easy to make a almosr invisible patch

[Renron]

Tek,
Good tips for a Dutchie.
Bob, sorry you have to make repairs, always a little demoralizing.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the encouragement and empathy, guys. It's been miserably hot, making enthusiasm harder to come by. Pressing on, about to do the top facet on the other cabinet then go searching through the offcut veneer bits for the best match for my dutchie.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the encouragement and empathy, guys. It's been miserably hot, making enthusiasm harder to come by. Pressing on, about to do the top facet on the other cabinet then go searching through the offcut veneer bits for the best match for my dutchie.

I can relate- we're have late August weather in late June, and it makes getting anything done in the evening twice as hard.

[BobEllis]

I've mentioned that here at the camp I have an old set of speakers, a Focal based MTM with 7" paper woofers and a TC120 Kevlar tweeter. Nothing special, reasonably flat but one of those that always sounded better from the next room if the volume was up (pretty much the issue with flat response Jon describes). Reading Jon's system response paper, I got thinking. I use JRiver to serve up the sound, and it's got built in DSP. Jon's work is an expansion of Linkwitz' Orion design study http://linkwitzlab.com/orion-rev3.htm I dialed in a curve like Version 2 in figure 3.2.1 using high and low shelving filters with +/-1.5 db gain, with a Q of .5 centered on 2KHz. I haven't had a chance to measure and verify what the net response is, but it's significantly more listenable at normal volumes.

I'm not sure what this will mean for my Ardents. Since everything in the analog realm of my system is DIY it would be easy to add the EQ circuit shown. I'm leaning towards a flat version with EQ that I can switch in as required/desired. It will be interesting to see what others have to say when they try the response shaping suggested.

[BobEllis]

The last facet is epoxied in place. Seems well adhered with just a bit of excess to trim. Tomorrow that cabinet will get its face veneer.

I went to choose a matching piece of veneer to repair the part I sanded through, and I had a tough time seeing the goof. As Tek mentioned, with wildly patterned veneer it should be relatively easy to find a match. In this case the dark parts are about the same color as the bamboo underneath and that's what got sanded through. From more than 6" away it's not really visible. I'm torn, leave a defect or risk a potentially more visible repair. The balance of the facet's veneer is a near perfect match for the adjoining side. I guess I'll let my girlfriend decide if it's noticeable enough to mess with.

[JonMarsh]

Out here in the West, we have a saying, "good enough from horseback", implying that if you can't see the defect from horseback distance, all is well.

On the other hand there is the Stephen Manning school of thought, that if you can see it from six inches or feel it with your fingers, you'd better get busy and fix it.

Most of us live somewhere in between...

[BobEllis]

Yeah, that's true. I'm leaning strongly towards it being good enough. If I was in full Manning mode, there would be several panels getting another layer of veneer. But if I had to stop and think which side I sanded through, what are the chances anyone would notice without me telling them?

[Renron]

It's all a personal choice. I find myself in the Manning camp. If I know about it, it'll bother me, even if no one else ever notices it. that said, I DO have a few grain blow-outs around the woofers that I am going to leave alone. They will be covered by the grill. I like the 6" / finger rule. In the end, yours is the only opinion that counts. Question? Can you notice it readily? Will it bother you later, making you wish you coulda / shoulda / woulda after all the time you've spent already on the speakers?
Ron

[BobEllis]

Good point about repair time relative to time spent. I can't see it without reading glasses. My main concern about a repair attempt is that I make things worse. Obviously I have removed a significant portion of the thickness on the veneer that remains close to the goof. Will I be able to thin the patch to match before I sand through more places? I may do a practice patch on scrap, but I'd really rather not have to redo the whole facet.

[Renron]

I can't see it without reading glasses. I have removed a significant portion of the thickness on the veneer that remains close to the goof. Will I be able to thin the patch to match before I sand through more places?

This being the case, I would leave it alone. There's not enough material surrounding the area to save. I revoke my previous post's thoughts.
Ron

[Renron]

Bob, Jon.
On a different note. Pun intended. Is the recommended#2 tweeter cap size still 10uF? The GBP has taken a beating today, and the exchange rate is good for buying a Clarity MR cap from HiFiCollective. Always looking for a deal..............
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, no change. BTW, I got a letter from the HiFi Collective (UK place I've been buying from), and they said, "No worries mate, same ease of business, but prices will be lower due to exchange rate fluctuations"

[TEK]

For now there will be no changes. The UK has not official left the EU yet. To do that they will have to formally call upon article 50. There are however some talk about EU wanting to get them out as soon as possible - but I guess it will take some time, mabey years, before the UK official is out.
If they actually do exit...
Lots of loose roomers going on, from Irland wanting to leve the UK to there beeing initiatives for a new wote (50k signatures, if they get over 100k the parlament has to take the suggestion up to discussion).

My personal thoughts on the matter is that this is a result of EU trying to control to mutch to fast.
If they do not change that I will not be supriced if more countries follows...

[TEK]

You may want to hurry up getting the most out of that exchange rate... Who knows what will happend?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Currently 2.4 million signatures...

https://www.facebook.com/britishcommonwealth2/videos/1125295727510356/

[Renron]

Continuing in the off topic pollution of this thread.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? Whaa, it didn't go the way "I" wanted so I want to change the rules.............. Sounds like the NWO doesn't like playing fair?
Thanks for the update TEK.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

You've got to watch out for the "elites" that give lip service to democracy unless the buggars have the temerity to vote the way they want to, instead of the way you expect or want them to... A lot of that going around this year, not necessarily in a good cause, but certainly highlighting the frustration of people who were supposed to be in someone else's back pocket and got tired of the scenery. And that's as specific as I'm going to get- sheesh, I'm a moderator, and supposed to be discouraging I comments like that!

[BobEllis]

On a less political note, I have the last of my veneering complete barring goofs. Tomorrow is sanding to prepare for a seal coat of epoxy. No pictures until I get that seal coat on, at the moment there's not much to see with the veneer edges sanded flush.

[JonMarsh]

Sounds like more solid progress.

I've been mostly vacuuming and cleaning today... And dripping sweat!

[BobEllis]

Well, it wasn't too hard to epoxy up that last piece of veneer and clamp it. Trimming took another 15 minutes. Sweating here too, pushing 90. Have been going out on the bicycle early, but still getting pretty warm. The girlfriend flogs me pretty hard on the hills. We did 106 miles in three rides gaining 7600' since Friday. She wants to go for a long ride tomorrow.

[Renron]

That's good news Bob. Glad you have your veneering finished, I'm sure it looks great. I start gluing the facets today..............I'm on your 6.

[BobEllis]

Chaff! Flares! Break Right!

[JonMarsh]

Better get a little more bank angle there... of course, you don't want to lose too much air speed with Ron on your tail... :B

[BobEllis]

Even the lowly A model I flew could accelerate under 6.5 Gs at low altitude. With the proper powerplants (A+. B and D models) they would accelerate under 6.5 Gs at 25,000 feet. As my buddy who was the project test pilot said, "It's a F-ing rocket ship!" A standard airshow move became a dirty double Immelman on rotation. BTW, out of airspeed and ideas was my motto.

My girlfriend is going back to work for her couple of days tomorrow, so I won't be on my bike as much and more likely to keep working on these.

[Renron]

Bob,
That's so cool. I'm drooling on my keyboard thinking about pulling G's. Thank you again for your service to our nation, not the Gov.
I'm laughing at "dirty double Immelman on rotation", thinking about the movie 40 year old virgin when the Indian man starts talking about sexual positions and the "Dirty Sanchez". (don't look it up) somethings you can't unlearn.
NSFW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Snl7a-lDE

OT, I worked with / as, finish carpenters on a Home in Incline Village Nevada, Lake Tahoe for 4 years. It was 6,000 sq. ft., 4 stories with a 24k gold egg shaped elevator, heated stone pavers driveway to melt the snow, bullet proof glass entry doors, hidden secret staircase for escape, and cameras in every room. (3 bedroom +Master) Ties to the Mafia?????? Maybe a little.................
Our motto was, "Is perfect good enough?". Our boss always had the same response, "Only, if you can't do any better!"
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Our motto was, "Is perfect good enough?". Our boss always had the same response, "Only, if you can't do any better!"

Hmmm, that's just in the same vein of "some's good, more is better, and too much is just enough!"

It also sounds like the sort of motto Stephen Manning lives by...

[BobEllis]

Of course I can do better - if I start from the beginning again. A bit of an expensive and time consuming proposition.

Ron, I bet you think the same thing when someone orders a dirty martini. Sheesh!

[TEK]

... and the "Dirty Sanchez". (don't look it up) somethings you can't unlearn.

I will follow your advice.
I did once do a search for something simular and got to a urban dictionary that described what it was. I could not shake the imaginary pictures from my brain for several weeks - starting to feeling sick every time I thought about it... :blink:

[Renron]

Bob,
From you response, you may have gotten the impression that I was referring to ANY of your work. I was not in any way, shape or form insinuating that you should "do better" or start again on anything you've done. If I gave you that impression, I'm sorry. I was only running with the "motto" theme. Please except my apologies.
I've hung upside down from a rope over the edge of an aluminum roof 140' high, attaching gutters. Not anywhere in your adrenaline league. I'm jealous of the toys you've had to play with.
"Dirty Martini"? Haven't touched a drop in 30+ years and don't frequent places that serve. Didn't know there was such a thing.

Are you going to spray or brush on your G.F. top coat? When will you start?
Ron

[BobEllis]

No offense taken Ron. Like anything done for the first few hundred times, I'm still learning (with your help among others) and will do better more quickly next time. That's all I meant by it.

That gutter work sounds like some serious adrenaline and pucker factor. To be honest, I've had more sustained adrenaline rushes on my bicycle on twisty mountain roads than in a Tomcat. Yes, it's exhilarating, but anything that causes an adrenal reaction is usually over by the time levels become noticeable. It takes significantly longer to tell a "thought I was going to die for sure" story than it took to happen. Glad I did it, would still jump at the chance to fly occasionally despite the physical toll it's taken. Although not the only factor, I'm sure it contributed to my needing 4 spine surgeries so far.

I plan to spray. I should have the cabinets sealed ready for GF this weekend. I need two coats of epoxy on some surfaces if I sand through to the veneer. LESSON: don't count on a thick coat of epoxy attaching the veneer to level out the substrate. Get it right before veneering.

Timing also depends on how many miles we put in on the bike. She likes long rides with lots of climbing, planning on 65 miles and 5,000' of climbing Friday morning to beat the holiday traffic. I'm usually pretty wiped afterwards and prone to errors. I've got today and tomorrow to myself.

Minor setback - as the light was fading yesterday I noticed a bubble on one top facet. This morning I put my heating pad on it in preparation for a repair, but when I pulled the heating pad off the bubble was flat and I couldn't see an edge to apply glue. As it's cooling down the bubble is returning. Once it pops up a bit more I'll glue and clamp.

[BobEllis]

Flaky internet connection duplicated the previous post, and I wanted to throw this in for Ron (in the spirit of fun)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gei7bzD-_Sk

[Carl V]

She likes long rides with lots of climbing, planning on 65 miles and 5,000' of climbing Friday morning to beat the holiday traffic. I'm usually pretty wiped afterwards and prone to errors.

dang...My hats off to both you two.
That is similar to biking up over Mt Hamilton from San Jose over
to Tracy....and I can tell you from past experience, I am wiped out.
And I do about 4 centuries a year. Jon has perhaps done this on one
of his motorbikes.

Back to the topic at hand...nice work you guys. Enjoy the process & the destination.
Altho in this hobby that maybe fleeting.

[BobEllis]

It will be loads of fun dragging my 260 pounds up an 8 mile Category 2 climb and a 4 mile Cat 3 that reaches 19% in spots. At least there are some decently long gentle downhills, as well. I used to do a lot of centuries, as well. It's just too hilly around here to go that far as slowly as I climb. So much fun watching her disappear up the first rise. Next time I see her she's on the top of the next one, taking off as soon as she knows I'm still moving. Nice to have someone that challenges me. She's got several Strava Queen of the Mountains and is in the top three in a bunch more. The only segments I'm close to the top of the standings on are the descents. With 58 looming on the horizon, I'm not as likely to reach speeds with a 5 or 6 as the first digit. Before cycle computers I used to come off that cat 2 and keep pace with traffic on a 10% 1.5 mile run - speed limit 55.

Destinations fleeting? You noticed I said I will do better next time, right? Probably not at this level of speaker for a while, but I do have several follow on projects in mind.

[JonMarsh]

dang...My hats off to both you two.
That is similar to biking up over Mt Hamilton from San Jose over
to Tracy....and I can tell you from past experience, I am wiped out.
And I do about 4 centuries a year. Jon has perhaps done this on one
of his motorbikes.

Back to the topic at hand...nice work you guys. Enjoy the process & the destination.
Altho in this hobby that maybe fleeting.

Geez, I haven't owned a bicycle in decades... I've usually been either a hike or Bike kind of guy, with the engine. Longest ride was picking up my ST1300 back in 2011, rode it from Russellville Arkansas to northern CA (home) in late December, arriving home on Christmas Day, in time to bake some of my patented stuffing and get over to GF's for Xmas dinner (was more just F, not GF at that point)

I have been hiking on the Antarctic continent, if that counts for exotic...












From a presentation I gave about the trip at work for a lunch and learn in 2015.

[BobEllis]

Great images. Jon. Thanks for sharing.

[BobEllis]

Both cabinets sealed. There's a slight surface texture from the roller, but it should sand out easily. Pictures later, too much back light to be meaningful even with 1,000W of Halogen bulbs at 3'. Sanding/finishing prep tomorrow or Saturday.

Funny, they have been sitting on furniture dollies so long that when I set them on the floor they looked short.

How are you coming along, Ron?

[JonMarsh]

Funny, they have been sitting on furniture dollies so long that when I set them on the floor they looked short.

The base design you chose to use will have an impact on perceived height, but these are relatively compact- at least it seems so since I put them back up and put the Isiris back in storage to play with and sort out updated crossovers on another day!

Congrats on the progress...

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. I plan a 3" high base. I have 2 thicknesses of BB ply attached, then sitting on the dollies. I also have a pair of 52" tall MLTL MTMs in the room that are my too big reference point.

If you get a chance to rework the attenuation for the -02 woofers, I am ready to order crossover parts now. Haven't seen much from Horio, but he's using the newer woofers too. Playing with these in Vituix CAD I was surprised how much the attenuation interacted with the FR. Well above my comfort zone.

[JonMarsh]

Thats on the priority list.. maybe I can convince my nephew from Texas who's coming out for the holiday weekend that he needs to see how this kind of thing as part of his general education- after all, he's about 35 now, time he learned how to design and build speakers, right? :B

Part of the delay is that I also wanted to bring this over to VituixCAD from LspCAD, but that takes a little extra work- maybe I should put that part off for another day!

[BobEllis]

Agreed! That's one of life's skills that should be mastered by then.

Thanks for your support, Jon. If you want to move it over to Vituix CAD, I can wait.

I'm surprised he's leaving Texas this weekend. Everyone seems to be heading to Austin for http://rtxevent.com/ That's my son with the beard in the first picture you see. At least until it starts up tomorrow.

[JonMarsh]

His wife isn't leaving Texas- she's going to Austin to visit some of her girlfriends. They live in Texarkana, where I went to high school.

[BobEllis]

Better availability to school him in the art.