Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

[BobEllis]

Finally making some progress on this build. Taper jig is built into the facet jig.



Lining up the cut. A little hairy when the baffle, jig and clamps outweigh the saw. All that lumber is between me and the blade when I'm cutting.



Just a little left to clean off with a Japanese saw. It was incredibly easy to get a smooth cut.



Messed up the alignment on the second cut making the facet much longer. I think I'll just make all upper facets long rather than deal with adding a layer back on and re-cutting.



Why do some pictures randomly rotate?

[JonMarsh]

Don't know about the picture rotation- I've had that happen occasionally working with Word at work, but my current workflow for HT Guide has been consistent.

You probably are better off just adjusting the other facets to be as long.

You sure do have a mighty big wood sled there feeding into that saw!

I remember that feedthrough was kind of hairy, too, but I cheated, and used a roller table for feed in and feed out...

Remember this pics from the Ardent Speaker Camp thread?



Another key aid was the angle taper jig, I think I bought this from Woodcraft, though it might have been Rockler on line. One or the other, they're my main go-to guys.

[BobEllis]

Yes I remember those pictures. That's part of the reason I put this project off for so long ��


Your jig has a lot more wood in it than mine. It looks like it could handle continuous production for about four years I have some particleboard shelving as an infeed table and the bottom of my jig is melamine so it slides easily

[dar47]

Ah, everybody is in full swing now.:T I can smell the saw dust all the way up here, haha

[BobEllis]

That MDF sure is dusty. After working with BB on my wavecor build I almost forgot how nasty and dusty the stuff is. This just confirms my decision not to use It anymore.

[JonMarsh]

That MDF sure is dusty. After working with BB on my wavecor build I almost forgot how nasty and dusty the stuff is. This just confirms my decision not to use It anymore.

The words of another very wise man... just say no!

[Renron]

MDF
More Dust Forever
More Dust, F**K !
Medical Doctors Fortune
.............that's all I got.
Ron

[TEK]

Finally making some progress on this build. Taper jig is built into the facet jig.

Lining up the cut. A little hairy when the baffle, jig and clamps outweigh the saw. All that lumber is between me and the blade when

Just a little left to clean off with a Japanese saw. It was incredibly easy to get a

Messed up the alignment on the second cut making the facet much longer. I think I'll just make all upper facets long rather than deal with adding a layer back on and re-cutting.


Why do some pictures randomly rotate?

Just flow with it. I missed on the angle, getting 50 degrees instead of 40 and a cut that was actually deeper than the baffel.
For me it was a good thing, I actually prefer the a bit more extreme look...

[BobEllis]

I cut all upper facets to match. Much easier the second time cutting facets. All in all I like the long facet look. Here are the baffles leaning against the cabinets. I need to run wires for the tweeter and midrange before gluing the baffles on.



To Ron's comment about my productivity in his thread, it's not what I expect given 4 days a week dedicated to these projects. But it's nice to see things coming together.

[JonMarsh]

Slow work always takes time, and doing something like this for the first time is always slow work for me. I'm with Ron, think your productivity has been quite good, all things considered.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon. Clearing out cobwebs took time. Hadn't done more than rout driver holes in years. Raw venerer is new to me, so that will slow things down again.

[dar47]

Great progress, these Ardent things are popping up everywhere:T That top facet where you wanted it, ours is closer to the tweet?

[Renron]

Looks good with the long facets.
If I don't work on the trailer this weekend (new sink install; prior owner melted the original one), it'll be the baffle setups. Not looking forward to that much routing, 26 holes ??? Any reason to route the inner baffles for the tweeter? I'm guessing no.
Ron

[dar47]

2 layers according to plan.

[Renron]

Thought so, Thanks Dar47

[BobEllis]

Great progress, these Ardent things are popping up everywhere:T That top facet where you wanted it, ours is closer to the tweet?

I was shooting for closer to the tweeter, but put the mid bottom a bit lower than I should have. I figured that minimizing driver spacing was more important than getting the tweeter to the top. The cabinets are an inch taller than the Wavecor version so the tweeters will still be at ear height with 2.25" of base height. May need to go higher with the Wavecors.

I also wanted the side and top facets to join without the peak at the top and got pretty darned close to that. The top flat surface is almost a rectangle. As I said in the beginning of the thread, this build is a return to a speaker building so My woodworking skills are a little rusty. I will be closer to the top of the tweeter on the Wavecor build.

[Renron]

Bob,
I was thinking the same thing about making the tweeter facet large like you did. For looks also. Could you please post a front shot?
Any issues (lobing) with moving the mid and tweeter higher? Fifth Element, are you monitoring this thread?
Ron

[BobEllis]

I will post a shot in the morning, but unless you make the angle steeper there's not much you can do since your cabinets are already built. I'd guess an extra inch of cabinet height is all you need. If your baffle blanks are long enough another layer of BB on the top might get you the height you need.

Just because of the frequencies involved I'd say that the mid to tweeter distance is the most critical. You could probably move the tweeter and mid up but then the top facet gets smaller, not bigger.

[BobEllis]

Here you go, Ron. It takes about 2.5" vertically to get this depth.

[Renron]

Thanks Bob, appreciate you taking the time to take the photo and to measure the depth of the cut.
I too, really like the symmetry. Time to crunch some numbers.....
Ron

[BobEllis]

You're welcome. To be clear, it's a 45 degree cut since I didn't think I could keep everything moving squarely on the 40 degree facet jig.

[TEK]

There are actually several Avalon designs that has this looks.
For example the Avalon Idea: http://www.google.no/imgres?imgurl=h...FcPwcgodKWQC_w

[BobEllis]

Aargh!

Now this is frustrating. The baffles have started to self destruct. They were in the sun while I was sealing and wiring the mid chamber and have started coming apart at the glue lines and in the middle of the MDF. Epoxy may stabilize it but I'm not going to put that beautiful veneer on a questionable substrate.

I'm sure our daily temperature swings from 40F to 80F haven't helped it. There is some internal stress because the panels weren't flat but I forced it flat gluing up between 2x4 cauls.

I guess this project will go on hold until I can make a Baltic Birch baffle. That likely means Spring.

[Steve Manning]

Aargh!

Now this is frustrating. The baffles have started to self destruct. They were in the sun while I was sealing and wiring the mid chamber and have started coming apart at the glue lines and in the middle of the MDF. Epoxy may stabilize it but I'm not going to put that beautiful veneer on a questionable substrate.

I'm sure our daily temperature swings from 40F to 80F haven't helped it. There is some internal stress because the panels weren't flat but I forced it flat gluing up between 2x4 cauls.

I guess this project will go on hold until I can make a Baltic Birch baffle. That likely means Spring.

That sucks Bob ...... the sun and wood do not play well together, it amazes me how badly it can warp a piece of wood. I can understand the glue lines, especially if you don't rough up the surface of mdf prior to gluing (surface tends to be too smooth sometimes), but that's pretty crazy it splitting in the middle of the board as well.

[BobEllis]

Definitely heat related. Everything is closing up as the temperature drops. Glad it happened now. They'll end up getting some direct sun in the living room.

[JonMarsh]

Aargh!

Now this is frustrating. The baffles have started to self destruct. They were in the sun while I was sealing and wiring the mid chamber and have started coming apart at the glue lines and in the middle of the MDF. Epoxy may stabilize it but I'm not going to put that beautiful veneer on a questionable substrate.

I'm sure our daily temperature swings from 40F to 80F haven't helped it. There is some internal stress because the panels weren't flat but I forced it flat gluing up between 2x4 cauls.

I guess this project will go on hold until I can make a Baltic Birch baffle. That likely means Spring.

Damn damn damn!! Triple Damn, even!

Really sorry to see this happen, Bob. Considering the materials are the same, I'm a bit surprised to see thermal stress cracking, but maybe this is due to differentials while warming up/cooling down? Would be easy to understand if you had BB ply layered with MDF- when you have a stiff material bonded with a "mushy" material (as I consider MDF) then one sort of expects something would have to give...

[Renron]

Shit on a stickeroo...............
Whoa, that's the fault of the MDF not yours. The straight dark lines look like the glue was not present exactly there, but the fractures are from a factory defect in the MDF. I've seen OSB during its early years of development do the same thing. Even some plywood when they were switching to a "more earth friendly" glue.
That's a shame Bob. Sorry. And they looked so good too. You MIGHT be able to "pitch a bitch" loud enough to get reimbursed the $$$ for the MDF but time wise....
Bummer Man.
Ron

[TEK]

Hmm, the larger one seems to be the glueline.
You should evaluate the type of glue, amount of glue, pressurre method and preperation of the materials before gluing.
Ideally the glue line is actually stronger than the MDF itself.
The other ones seems to be right in the MDF. Really strange.
What worries me is that as far as I can tell there is nothing special with your baffel - so might this happend to others as well? The conatruction has been done for many years (by Avalon and others)
so I dont see why?

[BobEllis]

Yeah, but if it had waited til it was glued to the cabinet or worse yet, veneered, I'd be really upset. The smell of freshly cut MDF was much stronger than usual.

Lesson learned to spread the glue on a little thicker. (And scuff the surface if using MDF again, thanks Steve) The offcuts stayed together, but I guess there wasn't enough once it softened a bit in the sun. I got a fair amount of pretty consistent squeeze out with Titebond 2 so I thought I had enough.

On the plus side having just one set of cabinets to finish by Columbus Day takes some pressure off.

I'm guessing that I should bring my veneer into a climate controlled environment over the winter. Or would it be ok in an unheated indoor area protected from water?

[Renron]

Bob,
Any chance that the titebond 2 could have come close to freezing? We all lost our glues in one night when the power went out in a Tahoe home we were working on. We also learned NOT to leave our glue in the truck overnight. Even if it just comes close to freezing temperatures, it will be ruined.
Bob, you should keep the veneer in a climate controlled environment, also keep the BB and Bamboo Ply dry and protect them from freezing. As I found out, keep them flat too, not leaning against the walls.

Tek, The long line looks to me like a lack of glue, not a failure of a glue line.
I think the glue in the MDF failed, during manufacturing it could have been the end of a tank of glue, bad Quality Control, contaminates in the raw materials.

Bob,
Way to look on the bright side, your good character shows.
Ron

[BobEllis]

It might have hit 36, I don't think it went lower. I guess that's fairly close, though. Who would have expected that in June?

Now you're making me wonder about the security of my Wavecor Ardent build. I will buy a fresh bottle before gluing the other baffles together.

Today the cracks have closed up almost completely and the facet edges are straight lines again. I can force a little movement in the glue line and close it. Thinking maybe an epoxy coat and paint or truck bed liner and rebuild in proper cabinets later. I'm going to focus on the Wavecor build while the weather is cooperating though.

Ok, I'll take the excess veneer home with me and store it under the bed. I wouldn't have thought to keep the ply from freezing. Fortunately I've been storing it flat.

[Winter]

Now this is frustrating. The baffles have started to self destruct. They were in the sun while I was sealing and wiring the mid chamber and have started coming apart at the glue lines and in the middle of the MDF. Epoxy may stabilize it but I'm not going to put that beautiful veneer on a questionable substrate.

I had a similar occurrence. While working on an MDF baffle, one end of the speaker was accidently exposed to outside direct sunlight for 10 to 20 minutes. Splitting check lines appeared in the ends of the MDF panels, similar to yours. No separation at the glued joints though. I applied Minwax High Performance Wood Hardener on the ends, allowing it to soak in. No issues since. I am careful to avoid leaving MDF in direct sunlight now.

[BobEllis]

Thanks for that. I have some of that, I'll give it a shot. Still don't think I'll put the good veneer on these cabinets, though.

I'm thinking Ron hit that one on the head regarding the glue lines. I remember noticing a bit of separation when I filled my service bottle from the gallon.

[Steve Manning]

Yeah, but if it had waited til it was glued to the cabinet or worse yet, veneered, I'd be really upset. The smell of freshly cut MDF was much stronger than usual.

Lesson learned to spread the glue on a little thicker. (And scuff the surface if using MDF again, thanks Steve) The offcuts stayed together, but I guess there wasn't enough once it softened a bit in the sun. I got a fair amount of pretty consistent squeeze out with Titebond 2 so I thought I had enough.

On the plus side having just one set of cabinets to finish by Columbus Day takes some pressure off.

I'm guessing that I should bring my veneer into a climate controlled environment over the winter. Or would it be ok in an unheated indoor area protected from water?

Your welcome Bob ........ I ran across that bit of info on Joe Wood Workers site (I was having some bubble issues with some veneer). Apparently that can be an issue with paper backed veneers not sticking well. You need to scuff both the veneer and the mdf prior to adding glue to each.

[BobEllis]

Applied Minwax wood hardener to the baffles. Easily soaked up a pint without getting to the shiny surface. Epoxy ought to finish the job.

If you decide to use the stuff, don't just use with adequate ventilation, wear a respirator. I applied it in the middle of a double garage door with a cross breeze and quickly grabbed my respirator. Nasty stuff

[BobEllis]

Didn't have enough to do while waiting for the glue to set on the Wavecor build so I'm going ahead with this. I will likely build another set of cabinets next year. These will be painted, probably with a textured paint.

After a week of setting up, the hardener didn't seem to do much other than change the color of the MDF. Yes, the flat surface of the baffles feels like it's been coated, but the facets seem to have expanded a bit and were fuzzy. It took quite a bit of sanding to get them smooth and flat again.

I will give them a coat of epoxy to seal and see how they look then. For what it's worth the cabinets weigh 66 pounds empty without bases. Single layer 3/4" MDF except 4 layer baffles.