Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[benthe8track]

Somewhere on my many piles of hard drives I've got a video of Avalon manufacturing processes including veneer and trim... let's just say, there's definitely some old world craftsmanship and skill going down there, especially on the facets. I emulated that on my own Ardent build, perhaps not fully successfully, but hey, I've got another shot at it now! :W

I'll try to find that video this weekend and see if I can setup a drop box download link if you're curious...

I think your plan for putting them on their sides on a small pallet makes a lot of sense. Appreciate the notion of pics. I've been transferring my personal addresses to my GF's already, though with the way work is going, completing the physical move is a long way off- but we'll want these shipped to her place in Danville.

I wouldn't say she's giddy with excitement, but she's intrigued at the notion of a smaller set of cousins to Bonnie and Clyde. (what she calls the Isiris). So am I, for that matter- I do have a Metric Halo LIO-8 or NAD M51 or Berkeley Alpha DAC I can use with these... (I think it's going to be the LIO-8 because they will be in the music room for playing and recording music, AKA sewing room; formerly known as "living room". The LIO-8's 8 channel capabilities and virtual mixer in software on the Mac uniquely suit it to that.)


You know, I think after looking at Ben's walnut burl sheet picture I'm going to have to go take a long look at various Avalon's finish and decide which way to go... the originals were being done in Curly/flame maple, with a clear finish, and I may fall back on that, but I suppose I should consult with GF, too- (actually, I did once, if I remember correctly, but got a non-committal response). I really like the way lacquer finished curly maple changes it's appearance depending on the angle of light and viewing. And light colored speakers are a little less visually imposing. But Walnut burl is intriguing- though probably more challenging to make all the veneer look correctly patterned on a cabinet like this.


Here's curly maple for the Indra.


Decisions, decisions.

Note, I will mount a set of drivers in the raw cabinets and do all the crossover development work prior to starting veneering work- don't want to slow you guys down! With regards to crossovers, I'll offer some options on BOM- including scaled to say, the 6600 tweeter and keeping the cost and bulk down, as well as no holds, and something in between.

Was this the video you were thinking?

I like their cold press system

This is where I got the idea for the burl:



I've been talking to a few industrial coatings manufactures about possibly using a polyester sealer to build it up and then a polyurethane to give it the gloss/or semi-gloss finish. Should produce the deep glass like surface I'm looking for.

[JonMarsh]

It's fun deciding on veneer. Lcolbur1's build inspired me to go with rustic cherry on my center so that's what I'm rocking for the new Ardents. Here is his, lots of detail and still traditional. You have to stay as light as possible as cherry will darken over time no mater what you do.

Image not available

Trying to match this,

Image not available


Only thing bugging me is I had for the first time water based varathane delamination on the center. I like brushed finishes that are rubbed out so I may try a brushable lacquer or an non-varathane varnish. If I don't get to finish till spring I may try to spray lacquer, haven't done that since my kitchen cabinet factory job just after high school. Boy was that some time ago, but it still seams like just last year. ops:

Yeah, the last gig I played at seems just like a few years ago, too, and that was 1986... and long after I'd quit playing for a living (1975); perspective on time is a curious thing. I DO really like the look of Loculbur1's speaker, that's very nice!

I still am leaning towards the curly/flame Maple- like I say, a little more discussion with GF, as she'll be living with these, too.

[JonMarsh]

Was this the video you were thinking?

I like their cold press system

This is where I got the idea for the burl:



I've been talking to a few industrial coatings manufactures about possibly using a polyester sealer to build it up and then a polyurethane to give it the gloss/or semi-gloss finish. Should produce the deep glass like surface I'm looking for.

Not the same one I think, but there are similarities- (hey, it's the same factory, right?) That video was "published" in 2010, and the one I have dates from around 2009. I'm watching the one you linked right now. How do you like those veneering presses for the facets? :W technique on trimming the veneer on the facets is the same as I recall. Looks like the guy is working with quilted Maple there. More detail than I recall. The sanding setup reminds me of what I wound up with using a DeWalt sander and DeWalt dust extraction VAC. Thanks for the link! Now, is there anywhere I can set that up at GF's?

Yes, I've seen the Walnut burl before also, and it is pretty trick. That should look sharp!

I did some test finishing of pieces back in 2010, but I may do that again with the new setup and a few different scraps of veneer on some MDF before making a final decision.

[TEK]

That rustic cherry,sure looks nice!

From the video, it seems as if they added the front and the facets was added in one single pice - meaning that they have to bend it over the facet corners. Guess you will have to use heat while applying to do that...

[dar47]

I think the facet veneer pieces are separate and pressed on. It shows them trimming the corners of the facets by hand.

[JonMarsh]

I think the facet veneer pieces are separate and pressed on. It shows them trimming the corners of the facets by hand.

Yup - that's how they did it in both videos. And how I did it for the first Ardent pair- takes a little care. I guess that's why they call it skilled labor? :W

Thinking about this, I suspect I won't get around to the veneering phase until we have the new concrete pad poured and the 10x12 storage "shed" built- that will become a part time workshop, too.

[dar47]

Are you sure you can't squeeze a single garage in there, just that much better? Maybe that's pushing the good graces you've already used up.

[JonMarsh]

Are you sure you can't squeeze a single garage in there, just that much better? Maybe that's pushing the good graces you've already used up.

:W Just might be... we've got a double car garage, and so far a Porsche 356 and VW Passat Wagon in that- plus her Vespa, and I've got my Honda Element and NSX I need to have access to, plus a Honda ST1300 I'd like to keep at the homestead...




It's going to get rather cozy there- we figure we'll keep the 356 and the NSX in the garage, the other two main cars in the driveway, which is going to be expanded slightly to handle 3 cars side by side.

You know, it's complicated... :W

[JonMarsh]

Getting ready on my end- bought some veneer at Woodcraft today for the facets, some veneer softener, and some of my favorite epoxy... plus my high end glue cartridges for the special glue gun (crossovers). Have also picked out some veneer to order online- for now, I'm going to go basically with Ben's approach, excepting the facets, which will use hardwood veneer.

[dar47]

So did she agree to go with the maple?

I didn't get much done this weakened, helping deal with a loss in natural gas supply to 5000 rural customers. (TCPL mainline explosion)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D-bp1DzJ7so

These municipalities operate a lot of hog and poultry operations very stressful and we are going back to -30 C. Hope people and animals can hang on till repairs are made.

On a better note Ben getting a lot done and we should have the felt in tomorrow so Ben can laser cut and we can finally send yours!

[JonMarsh]

Serious stuff you guys are coping with up there! That's a heck of a freakin' fireball!

People here have no idea what temperatures like that are about... even my experience in Colorado and Minnesota is limited in comparison! It's more like living on another planet- whole different set of considerations for survival.

Of course, glad to hear Ben is making progress; I'm also getting the files together from the existing Ardent design to setup some preliminary crossover work (combine Ardent mid and tweeter measurements with LF stuff from Isiris- will be closer to what's needed than you might expect! Give me something to do in the evening down in Cupertino this week, though Tuesday evening I'm interviewing another candidate at dinner.

GF seems agreeable to Maple, I'm leaning towards either curly maple or birds eye, and just got some nice pieces of Birds eye for the facets, SO, even have enough of these to do the front panels in that. And I have a source for Birdseye Maple, Medium Eye 4'X8' Veneer Sheet, 3M PSA Backed. So, this is definitely coming together... now if only the interview stuff works out and I get freed up for my normal role at work (stirring up trouble in the high power area...)

Stay warm and safe!

[TEK]

Anyone tought of a center edition of the wavecor ardent?

[JonMarsh]

Not at all hard in concept, but would probably consider 7" wavecor or SS instead for woofers- don't need low end grunt for a traditional CC. The Wavecor Ardent is meant to be fairly full range speaker on it's own. For the money, I don't know if that would really out perform my NeoD CC. I'm thinking of revisiting that design, with Anarchy woofers and the SB acoustics small form factor tweeter I've been rambling about. Open to suggestions on the woofer side, of course. The advantage to the dome mid is flexibility in upper crossover point, and smaller crossover physically, and it works well in a Duelund configuration considering how smooth the Dayton dome mid is.

I've got to build a new CC for GF's HT anyway, figured I'd make a project of sorts out that, but trying to keep the work down.

Something to mull over in my copious spare time (none now- maybe second half of year?)

[TEK]

I see that going for some smaller woofers wood be resonable. But if it were to be a center for the Ardent, would you not use the same tweeter, mid and crossover principels to ensure that you get the same voicing as the mains?
My understanding is that you would not go for a duelund crossover for the Ardents, but more towords the Natalie P (if I recall correctly from the Isris design thread)...

[JonMarsh]

Those are all valid points, but my my point of reference for voicing is basically on axis and up to 30 degrees off axis; for an HT system that well defines (IMO) what you need for tone matching.

Now, I DO happen to have one C79 sitting around, but I don't have another 6640. Of course, that could be remedied... Now, it would be interesting to see how an Isiris style 3 way crossover for a modified NeoD CC design would look, measure, and sound- the big advantage to using the dome mid, besides how easy it is to work with, is that it doesn't require a substantial portion of the enclosure rear volume. For a CC, that's a good feature- I've seen some really big CC speakers in my time, but with the cabinet and space we have to work with, that wouldn't be ideal for me.

All good questions, for sure...

Then too, I'm using this new Ardent sets more as monitor and playback speakers in the music room. As plans currently stand, we don't need a CC there! :W

For identical response, the logical/extreme choice would be simply another Ardent, behind your acoustically transparent projection screen. (mine isn't acoustically transparent, and is not installed at this time- we're getting by with a 50" plasma.)

What I would likely do in a situation like this is measurement AND listening evaluations with pink noise, and if the noise can be tone shaped to be nearly identical, then I think it's reasonable to "call it a day". :W

[dar47]

Rick Graig at Selah Audio did this for me to go with the Ardents, (preemptive strict). He is vary reasonable.

http://www.selahaudio.com/

It has the 7" Wavecors, same mid and the 6600 tweet. I imagine you could have it adjusted for the 6640, or wait a bit to see if Jon could be coxed. :W

[dar47]

Thanks, Jon

Pressurizing many miles of of gas main with 800,000 ft^3 of gas and relighting customers over the next bit so questions for me should die down and I can go back at it hard again.

Ben is getting ahead of me and should be laser cutting the felt tomorrow! His grills snap on the baffles just right.

[benthe8track]

Yeah the magnets on the grills worked out well. I recessed the magnets in the baffle .060" and that seemed to be the perfect depth for attaching them securely without having to fight with them to take them off. I had another late one this eve and got the boxes prepped for hardboard, got the grills on, installed the inserts and the bases. Laser cutting the felt tomorrow hopefully, probably more sanding and hopefully getting the hardboard on. My raw veneer should be in tomorrow as well so maybe I can bookmatch it and get it ready. Anything but more sanding..

A matching centre would be great! I also want to copy TEK and make a similar faceted box for my little Dayton 12".
Excuse the dusty and blurriness:

[TEK]

For identical response, the logical/extreme choice would be simply another Ardent, behind your acoustically transparent projection screen. (mine isn't acoustically transparent, and is not installed at this time- we're getting by with a 50" plasma.)

And hide them. ARE YOU MAD:W
No, that would not be any fun. Good d..., when I build these, they will be on the biggest display available

Bebte8track - that sure looks great, but I just have to ask a question. We do, on this and almost all other speakers, put great efforts in having nice flush mounted drivers. When the frame of the grill get this close to the drivers, how will it impact the sound?
And is the plan to design the crossover for these to be meant used with the grilles on - according to the Avalon tradition?

[JonMarsh]

Rick Graig at Selah Audio did this for me to go with the Ardents, (preemptive strict). He is vary reasonable.

http://www.selahaudio.com/

It has the 7" Wavecors, same mid and the 6600 tweet. I imagine you could have it adjusted for the 6640, or wait a bit to see if Jon could be coxed. :W

Well, there you have it! 6600 and 6640 are practically drop in's for each other... that looks very fine, but it IS much larger than the NeoD CC (we won't bring up the price differential, as me talking about price to someone else would definitely be a case of the pot calling the kettle black!). Two thumbs up! :T

[JonMarsh]

Yeah the magnets on the grills worked out well. I recessed the magnets in the baffle .060" and that seemed to be the perfect depth for attaching them securely without having to fight with them to take them off. I had another late one this eve and got the boxes prepped for hardboard, got the grills on, installed the inserts and the bases. Laser cutting the felt tomorrow hopefully, probably more sanding and hopefully getting the hardboard on. My raw veneer should be in tomorrow as well so maybe I can bookmatch it and get it ready. Anything but more sanding..

A matching centre would be great! I also want to copy TEK and make a similar faceted box for my little Dayton 12".
Excuse the dusty and blurriness:

Looking very, very good, Ben! with inset felt for diffraction control, these should work very nicely! :T

[benthe8track]

Bebte8track - that sure looks great, but I just have to ask a question. We do, on this and almost all other speakers, put great efforts in having nice flush mounted drivers. When the frame of the grill get this close to the drivers, how will it impact the sound?
And is the plan to design the crossover for these to be meant used with the grilles on - according to the Avalon tradition?

That will be up to Jon. The geometry made it tricky to keep the openings as big as possible, fit the magnets and the slot for the spline and we wont know how well it worked until it's measured. At least with the embedded magnets it will look good with them off if my grill experiment was a total failure haha.

[JonMarsh]

Bebte8track - that sure looks great, but I just have to ask a question. We do, on this and almost all other speakers, put great efforts in having nice flush mounted drivers. When the frame of the grill get this close to the drivers, how will it impact the sound?
And is the plan to design the crossover for these to be meant used with the grilles on - according to the Avalon tradition?

this is something to discuss with the guys, but yes, my normal plan would be to voice them for the crossover design with the grilles and diffraction control elements in place- if anyone wants otherwise, naturally that could be acommodated without much difficulty, but in particularly the diffraction control SHOULD be there...

In fact, that's one of the next things to do for the Isiris, right after the internal modifications to the midrange enclosure, is finishing the grille assemblies and measuring and tweaking again as needed...

[JonMarsh]

I found a little spare time early this AM at Starbucks and bit the bullet and ordered veneer. Decided to go ahead with Birdseye maple; a little old school relative to my normal taste, something in between Ben's Walnut burl and typical curly Maple. I have a good feeling about it, though...






I was hoping to have this evening off, (to do experimental concept work on the crossover, using past measured data for the mid and tweeter, and the measured data for the NS12's, as a stand in for the woofers,) but now we're setting up a follow up interview in more technical depth for the candidate we had a dinner interview with last night- he's here from Chicago on "normal" business for his employer, so we have to be flexible, but it looks promising so far- we may actually have two fairly solid if differently skilled candidates to make offers to fairly soon. The sooner they are on board, the sooner the possibility of going back to my more "normal" role. This would be welcome, especially because of the commute it otherwise involves for me.

[benthe8track]

I found a little spare time early this AM at Starbucks and bit the bullet and ordered veneer. Decided to go ahead with Birdseye maple; a little old school relative to my normal taste, something in between Ben's Walnut burl and typical curly Maple. I have a good feeling about it, though...






I was hoping to have this evening off, (to do experimental concept work on the crossover, using past measured data for the mid and tweeter, and the measured data for the NS12's, as a stand in for the woofers,) but now we're setting up a follow up interview in more technical depth for the candidate we had a dinner interview with last night- he's here from Chicago on "normal" business for his employer, so we have to be flexible, but it looks promising so far- we may actually have two fairly solid if differently skilled candidates to make offers to fairly soon. The sooner they are on board, the sooner the possibility of going back to my more "normal" role. This would be welcome, especially because of the commute it otherwise involves for me.

Excellent choice in veneer, I always loved birds eye on guitars. Good to hear things will be getting back to a more normal pace for you!

In addition to laying up the first bit of hardboard on my boxes we got all the laser cutting done this eve. Fun fact about laser cutting wool felt, it smells like burnt hair.



The fit turned out perfect though so I can't complain:



We also found some closed cell foam laying around that looked like decent gasket material. So we laser cut that too. It should provide a nice air tight seal for the bases:



Now that that is out of the way, my dad is going to grab a pallet from work and we should have Jon's set ready to ship by the weekend

Finally, whats a high quality grille cloth to use?

[dar47]

Geez, Ben I didn't know you snapped those shots. Anyways here one of the base gaskets.

[dar47]

We can hold that felt in place perfect with a couple of dabs of Hot glue. I put the felt in a bag and I think I can small a sheep on fire still! They should stop smelling maybe after the burnt edges are sanded off.

[JonMarsh]

Excellent choice in veneer, I always loved birds eye on guitars. Good to hear things will be getting back to a more normal pace for you!

In addition to laying up the first bit of hardboard on my boxes we got all the laser cutting done this eve. Fun fact about laser cutting wool felt, it smells like burnt hair.



The fit turned out perfect though so I can't complain:



We also found some closed cell foam laying around that looked like decent gasket material. So we laser cut that too. It should provide a nice air tight seal for the bases:



Now that that is out of the way, my dad is going to grab a pallet from work and we should have Jon's set ready to ship by the weekend

Finally, whats a high quality grille cloth to use?

The last batch of nice black grille cloth for the Isiris I got from Meniscus- may have enough for these, too.

https://meniscusaudio.com/product/black-grille-cloth

[JonMarsh]

Geez, Ben I didn't know you snapped those shots. Anyways here one of the base gaskets.

Image not available

Good looking base gaskets- classier than the weather stripping I cut and used!

[CraigJ]

Fantastic build thread guys, thanks for sharing it and when is the next group buy?:banana: Following along with your progress reminds me of the good times I had building reproduction antiques with my father. Sure miss that time together, enjoy it!

Craig j

[JonMarsh]

Ordered some trim bits this morning from Rockler, spreading the business around.





Look familiar? :W



I'm guessing you have customized this one beyond the standard picture you posted- I'll need to do the same, just getting ready to "rock and roll" here...


Purchasing department also scored on something I've been hunting for a while, this time on eBay:





In case that's a little puzzling, it's just a portable compact spare for my NSX...

[MickRS]

Thought that was a new design tweeter, with rubber basket...

[JonMarsh]

Thought that was a new design tweeter, with rubber basket...

Actually, it's a new type of Passive Radiator loading weight, for tuning the resonance down low... really low... :B

[MickRS]

Ah, now I finally know what that round thing is in the front of my car... But it must be broke, 'cause the sound really s*cks!

[dar47]

Ordered some trim bits this morning from Rockler, spreading the business around.





Look familiar? :W



I'm guessing you have customized this one beyond the standard picture you posted- I'll need to do the same, just getting ready to "rock and roll" here...

I hope you have a access to a bench grinder to take that tip down to 1/8"? I tried with a 4" grinder but it was taking forever. I had to use my neighbors grinding stone. Let me know I can still run over there and grind one for you if you need and add it to the package coming.
Making good progress again even though they have started a reno and are taking walls down around us. We should be out by the weekend and have our the new speaks in my basement safe and sound for veneering. I'm going to drop a pallet off at the shop during lunch tomorrow to pack yours up. Not sure if we can drop it off for shipping before Monday but I'm off . If Ben doesn't have your particulars I'll get him to message you. They are coming I promise :P.

[dar47]

Fantastic build thread guys, thanks for sharing it and when is the next group buy?:banana: Following along with your progress reminds me of the good times I had building reproduction antiques with my father. Sure miss that time together, enjoy it!

Craig j

Thanks, Craig

It's been fun and inspiring seeing how accomplished my oldest has become and he is teaching the old guy some new tricks. I'm going to really miss him when he moves away in May.

Group buy? :E I think I'm going to need a break when we get these done and the homestead could use some tending too for sure. It's definitely been an all out effort.

[JonMarsh]

Group buy? :E I think I'm going to need a break when we get these done and the homestead could use some tending too for sure. It's definitely been an all out effort.

These things usually are- fall of 2012 and winter/spring of 2013 were defined by the Isiris- very much dominated my spare time! It's hard to have more than one iron in the fire for a serious spare time project.

GF has a bench top grinder, I've been looking for an excuse to put a new wheel on it, this just may be it. I WILL have customized them before use, they won't ship until around the 10th, due to back order.

Got shipping notice on the veneer about 3 AM today (yeah, I was just staying up all night watching my iPad Air, hoping to see that so I could go back to sleep at peace with the world.... :B

And yesterday, in tangentially related news, I got most of the way through preparing the crossover BOM for the Isiris, which of course is the starting template for the Wavecor Ardent; I have some ideas about how to surgically pare the cost without paring the performance- will involve careful specification and selection of inductors and capacitors. I'm getting setup for LspCAD simulations, have to get some data off my Mac Mini, and transfer to the new retina Macbook Pro or the Mac Pro. I'm jazzed and ready to "rock and roll"! ;b>

Even if that is something of a musical contradiction!

[TEK]

[QUOTE=dar47;585708]

Ordered some trim bits this morning from Rockler, spreading the business around.





Look familiar? :W



I'm guessing you have customized this one beyond the standard picture you posted- I'll need to do the same, just getting ready to "rock and roll" here...


I hope you have a access to a bench grinder to take that tip down to 1/8"? I tried with a 4" grinder but it was taking forever. I had to use my neighbors grinding stone. Let me know I can still run over there and grind one for you if you need and add it to the package coming.
Making good progress again even though they have started a reno and are taking walls down around us. We should be out by the weekend and have our the new speaks in my basement safe and sound for veneering. I'm going to drop a pallet off at the shop during lunch tomorrow to pack yours up. Not sure if we can drop it off for shipping before Monday but I'm off . If Ben doesn't have your particulars I'll get him to message you. They are coming I promise :P.

How is this bit used? What does it do, and how and why do you need to cusomice it?
Come one - it cant be only me wondering about this? But mabye just me willing to show off the total lack of competency?
;-)

[meb46]

TEK - You read my mind, I was just sitting here going back over the posts to try and figure it out... if its a trim cutter, why do you need to customize?

Jon - Come on, spill the beans and enlighten us all

[dar47]

TEK - You read my mind, I was just sitting here going back over the posts to try and figure it out... if its a trim cutter, why do you need to customize?

Jon - Come on, spill the beans and enlighten us all

The tip of the bit is ground down to 1/8" and used in a laminate trimmer to ride just above the driver flush mount recesses to trim the veneer perfectly to the driver holes. I used to use a utility knife to go around very carefully but this is fast and clean. I'll have to post some pics when we get there.

[JonMarsh]

The tip of the bit is ground down to 1/8" and used in a laminate trimmer to ride just above the driver flush mount recesses to trim the veneer perfectly to the driver holes. I used to use a utility knife to go around very carefully but this is fast and clean. I'll have to post some pics when we get there.

+1 Only efficient way to do veneer trimming in rebates if you veneer AFTER cutting the rebates and holes.

[benthe8track]

So it looks like an epoxy finish is a good choice for PSA, I spent way too much time reading about adhesives, wetting and surface energy but it appears that it will be a good choice. The old man wants to use sanding sealer but the can doesn't say what's in it so that makes it a bit tricky.

Just more sanding and epoxying on hardboard today. Oh and this:

[TEK]

Your very own little speaker factory :-)

[JonMarsh]

Sets my heart a racing...

So it looks like an epoxy finish is a good choice for PSA, I spent way too much time reading about adhesives, wetting and surface energy but it appears that it will be a good choice. The old man wants to use sanding sealer but the can doesn't say what's in it so that makes it a bit tricky.

Just more sanding and epoxying on hardboard today. Oh and this:

my, my... What a nice pallet you have there!

yeah, after a little more research and thought, epoxy as the base coat for me, too. Have plenty on hand, have good dust control and a respirator mask...

[dar47]

The old man wants to use sanding sealer but the can doesn't say what's in it so that makes it a bit tricky.

I found the data sheet for the General Finishes sanding sealer, it's "Acrylic" based cross linked. I think it's the same base as PSA backed veneer. Not as hard as epoxy but it should provide a good base for the veneer. Maybe this is one of the "I do old school you do new school". I have 2 quarts to use up. I will try a sample first though.

http://generalfinishes.com/sites/default/files/Tech-Data-Enduro-Sanding-Sealer-020210.pdf