Raal, Neo 10 open baffle

[gbegland]

Got the baffle ready to test out. Just waiting for a pair of Lambda Dipole 15's to show up and I'm set. Eventually, the real baffle will most likely have some large, curved pieces down each side. The real baffles will also be made out of bamboo plywood. If anyone in the central Florida area wants to go half on an order of 2 sheets, let me know in a PM. I only need one piece, but min order is 2 sheets.

http://www.tapeease.com/4rounds.htm

Using the Digmoda 3 way amp/dsp for power and xover/eq. I'm hoping to get to near 40Hz with the single dipole 15 and then augment this system in the future with some large subs.

Greg - technician - www.phatplanetstudios.com

[neuro]

Do you plan to try a test baffle with the Raal in between the Neos? MTM as it where.

[penngray]

Greg, any chance of seeing RAAL measurements, Impulse,Off axis response, CSD?

[Brian Kingsbury]

I like your choice of drivers. Jed just finished a pair of speakers for me with the RAAL and he was very impressed by it. Your speakers should be a top-notch design when they're done! If they turn out good you should talk your boss into letting you upgrade these to include a Neo10 as well. Seeing the ribbon/"12 woofer combo reminds me of that famous song from South Park: "Pig and Elephant DNA just don't splice!" :B

[gbegland]

Penn, no measurements as of yet. Just getting the drivers wired and screwed to the baffle tomorrow for some basic measuring and listening tests. Probably no REAL measurements worth posting, but we will see how it goes.

I really hope these Neo 10 work out, because after a year of trying out about 12 different drivers for a mid, I was not happy with any of them except the revelators, but that was not the way I wanted to go with this design.

I plan on trying other variations of the driver arrangement as well. Either as an MTM with all drivers on their side or with both Neos together to form a large square. Side by side, they make a 10" square. I will also make some larger foam pieces like those that come with the Raal to try on the Neos.

More later.....

Greg

[gbegland]

Did a basic EQ on the system, but no serious measurements. I must say that I am very relieved because it seems as if the Neo 10's are going to work out just fine for mids. Lots of drivers for sale soon. Many over the last year did not make the cut for my tastes.

Running a single, mono channel for now and still using my old dipole/MB Quart subs on the bottom while waiting for the AE Dipole 15's to show. Even still, getting great sound from the combo. I am really liking the usability of the Digmoda amp/software. There are enough filters availible, that you could do steep crossover functions and still have lots of DSP left over for EQing and room tuning.

The Raal lives up the hype, but I already knew that after auditioning many speakers with Alexanders drivers. It's fun to play with the little foam pads to alter the sound of the 140-50.

Greg

[gbegland]

Photo of today's setup.

[tg3]

Where did you get the Neo 10s? I thought they were OEM only.

[gbegland]

Where did you get the Neo 10s? I thought they were OEM only.

http://www.meniscusaudio.com/

Just ordered 2 more for the other channel. Today was a happy day!

Greg

[jkrutke]

Where did you get the Neo 10s? I thought they were OEM only.

Test results of those look pretty good too. They were just what I was hoping they'd be, a huge version of the Neo3. Results in my blog somewhere.

Photo of todays setup.

Looks good, that's how I would arrange that combo also. The trick would likely be getting smooth vertical off axis curves. Something you might consider is making one of the Neo10's a .5 way driver with a just an inductor though it's not really there for baffle step, it would be for expanding the vertical off axis closer to a single Neo10. Then digitally EQ back to flat from there. Just some ideas to toy with, you have a lot of work ahead of you. :B

[gbegland]

Test results of those look pretty good too. They were just what I was hoping they'd be, a huge version of the Neo3. Results in my blog somewhere.


Looks good, that's how I would arrange that combo also. The trick would likely be getting smooth vertical off axis curves. Something you might consider is making one of the Neo10's a .5 way driver with a just an inductor though it's not really there for baffle step, it would be for expanding the vertical off axis closer to a single Neo10. Then digitally EQ back to flat from there. Just some ideas to toy with, you have a lot of work ahead of you. :B

Actually, I was planning on making my own larger versions of the foam pads from Raal to try with the Neos. Placed on the top of the top unit and bottom of the bottom unit. The 2 working together and coupling at lower frequencies is definitely helping fill in the drooping low end response. Even with the set-up as it is, the listening window vertically might just be big enough anyway.

They are crossed at 300 right now just to see how well they handle it and I'm not seeing or feeling any movement from the from diaphragm at all. Even shining a flashlight in there, I can't see anything. They sure don't sound too stressed that low, but the high pass xover will probably be set higher just to stay away from that spike in distortion down low.

The low level resolution I was hearing yesterday, even in mono, speaks well for both the capabilities of the Neos as well as the Digmoda. Can't wait to get the other stuff here for a stereo pair.

The offer is still out there if anyone in the Central Florida area wants to go in on 2 4' * 8' sheets of bamboo plywood with me. I only need one of the two. They will be around $250 each with shipping. PM me for info.

Greg

[5th element]

It'd be great if you could run some distortion sweeps on the Raal. Those are always very highly regarded, but it seems that good distortion plots are hard to find.

[gbegland]

It'd be great if you could run some distortion sweeps on the Raal. Those are always very highly regarded, but it seems that good distortion plots are hard to find.

Alexanders own measurements are in the PDF on the Raal website, but I will see what I can get in the next few weeks.

Greg

[Space]

Greg, how will you mount the Digimoda device in an open baffle?

[5th element]

Alexanders own measurements are in the PDF on the Raal website, but I will see what I can get in the next few weeks.

Greg

I've seen those before, but those plots leave a lot to be desired in my opinions. I can't read the y axis particularly well and he only shows 2nd and 3rd harmonic. Anything you could add to the mix would be greatly appreciated

[gbegland]

Greg, how will you mount the Digimoda device in an open baffle?

The Digmoda plate amp will be in a seperate box sitting on the floor behind the baffle. It will connect with an 8 pole Neutrik speakon connector, using 4 of the connections for the woofer just to double up on the conductors.

[Rick Craig]

Maybe the new RAAL dipole ribbon? :T

[Jed]

It'd be great if you could run some distortion sweeps on the Raal. Those are always very highly regarded, but it seems that good distortion plots are hard to find.

Agree I haven't seen much 3rd party plots, just what's in the factory pdf.

[Jed]

Maybe the new RAAL dipole ribbon? :T

That one should be interesting and have a lot of appeal for unique applications. I'm sure you've got a line array thought up using the tall dipole RAAL (when it comes out soon).

[gbegland]

Have a second version of the baffle ready to test out now. Going for a much narrower horizontal radiation with this one. I like the look better too.

Greg

[cjd]

Is there potential risk with sag on the RAAL placed horizontally?

I'll be curious to see your results. I picked up my Neo project again yesterday evening for a bit of fun (and posted some vague measurements as well )

[gbegland]

Is there potential risk with sag on the RAAL placed horizontally?

I'll be curious to see your results. I picked up my Neo project again yesterday evening for a bit of fun (and posted some vague measurements as well )

Oh, good call on the sag. I will have to ask Alexander about that. I mentioned this idea to him last year at the RMAF and he was intrigued, but didn't mention a problem at the time. He laughed because he is working on omni speakers and I am attempting to shrink the polar response.

Greg

[gbegland]

Back in the groove now after some delays and changes in plans.

Bamboo back from the CNC guy.

Greg

[gbegland]

Dipole 15 is out, replaced with the B&C 15NDL76 and augmented with a pair of Rythmik Servo 15s in PVC tubes.

[BigJim_inFLA]

Looking very nice indeed. Did you say PVC tubes Where did you find PVC so large?

[JonMarsh]

Very interesting- you obviously have much more spare time on your hands than I do this year- I'm jealous! Keep us posted.

[CraigJ]

Excellent build and thanks for sharing it with us. I kinda think it's looking more and more like Jon's Isiris Jr. Also, the bamboo looks very nice.

Greg, I have a pair of Raals coming this week and am wondering if you paired them with any of the 7" Accuton drivers? I wasn't planning on purchasing the Neo10, but......must resist.

Cj

[gbegland]

Big Jim, yes it is schedule 80 PVC I believe. The heavy duty version of normal sch 40 found in plumbing stores. It would have been nearly $30ft new from a supplier. I found an 11ft piece near St. Pete on Craigslist for $100. I drove over there with my jig saw and hacked it into 4 more managable size pieces. It was a real PITA to work with, but I think then end result is worth it. Much stiffer than standard cardboard sonotube builds.

Greg

[gbegland]

Very interesting- you obviously have much more spare time on your hands than I do this year- I'm jealous! Keep us posted.

Roger that!

[gbegland]

Excellent build and thanks for sharing it with us. I kinda think it's looking more and more like Jon's Isiris Jr. Also, the bamboo looks very nice.

Greg, I have a pair of Raals coming this week and am wondering if you paired them with any of the 7" Accuton drivers? I wasn't planning on purchasing the Neo10, but......must resist.

Cj

The 140-15? I ended up breaking the rules and running the Neo10 up to 3.5KHz. becquse below that, they sounded strained at higher levels. Never tried any accutons in my search, but have heard several 7" based system that were very impressive. I am curious to see where you end up crossed at? I always seem to end up at least an octave above whatever the manufacturer recommends as the low limit for their tweeters.

I made my surround from bamboo cutting boards years ago and always wanted to have the whole system match. It was a little bit of a budget breaker, but at this point I'm in so far, why not. It machined really well because the cnc guy put on a new blade and had worked with some bamboo plywood before, so he knew what speed to set the machine at.

[Face]

Greg, I have a pair of Raals coming this week and am wondering if you paired them with any of the 7" Accuton drivers? I wasn't planning on purchasing the Neo10, but......must resist.

Which RAAL? If it's the large RAAL, crossing it to a C173-6-90/95/96 may be an issue if you want nice polar response.

[gbegland]

Progress. One glued up, other clamped and drying. These are WAY more rigid than the test baffles with basic plywood and mdf sandwiched. Last pict is the opening of the wire channel below the Raal. Keeps a nice, clean look with minimal exposed wire.

Greg

[gbegland]

Remaining pieces all cut at the CNC shop yesterday. Dummy programmed the bit to cut INSIDE the line rather than outside though, so the 4th layer for the rear of the baffle is a 1/4" too small all the way around! He's got some free machine time and replacement wood owed to me now...

Otherwise, I'm moving forward. Got one support leg glued up and the 1" roundovers done.

Greg

[gbegland]

4th layer glued up, holes for feet drilled out, rear and sides painted with Rustoleum textured brown, supports legs rounded over and first coat of tung oil on them.

Greg

[gbegland]

A couple more.

[Johnloudb]

Hi Greg,

Looking good! Nice work! How do you like the Lamba Dipole 15? I was thinking of using 2 of these per channel for a dipole sub in the future, after I get my dipole speaker done. In your design did they need any baffle step correction? Do you think they would make a good subwoofer?

John

[gbegland]

Hi Greg,

Looking good! Nice work! How do you like the Lamba Dipole 15? I was thinking of using 2 of these per channel for a dipole sub in the future, after I get my dipole speaker done. In your design did they need any baffle step correction? Do you think they would make a good subwoofer?

John

Hi John. Thanks.

If you check back on the first page of the thread, I posted my change of plans. Dipole 15 is out and in its place is a B&C LOW QTS driver and a pair of Rythmik servo subs. The Lambda was giving me good response to mid 20's in room, but I was missing the visceral impact of a good sealed sub and I could not get the Dipole 15 to sound pitch defined to my liking. The new combo is spot on the best integrated bass I've heard at home or in anyones studio, including Bob Katz studio, Digital Domain.

The Dipole 15 WAS easy to work with, requiring very minor 6dB/oct bass shelf below about 80Hz in MY baffle to get near 20Hz. They are a truely impressive driver, but I am happier with where the system is at now.

More soon....

Greg

[Johnloudb]

Thanks for the info Greg. I've used a couple push pull dipole subs before and they were okay, but not the best definition. Not the best drivers either though. I heard someone comment that a dipole subwoofer system, designed by a renowned designer,using multiple 12" drivers was the most accurate bass they had ever heard.

I guess, how good a sub sounds probably has more to do with the driver and implementation than whether it's dipole or not. I'd like good output to 20 Hz so I guess I'll look to something else.

[gbegland]

Thanks for the info Greg. I've used a couple push pull dipole subs before and they were okay, but not the best definition. Not the best drivers either though. I heard someone comment that a dipole subwoofer system, designed by a renowned designer,using multiple 12" drivers was the most accurate bass they had ever heard.

I guess, how good a sub sounds probably has more to do with the driver and implementation than whether it's dipole or not. I'd like good output to 20 Hz so I guess I'll look to something else.

Well, the "best bass" someone has ever heard is dangerous to follow blindly...maybe they've never heard great bass. Haha. Who knows, maybe I'm crazy too, but I DO have lots of hifi as well as live music and studio experience, so I think I can safely say I've got all the bases (pun certainly intended) covered. Go with a pair of Rythmiks. You will get your 20Hz and it will be as tight and precise as many other more spendy choices as long as you spend the time to properly integrate them with you main speakers.

Greg

[gbegland]

A few more of the subwoofer build.

[Johnloudb]

Well, the "best bass" someone has ever heard is dangerous to follow blindly...maybe they've never heard great bass.

Yeah, I totaly agree. Though this person was also professional in audio ... can't even remember who or where I read the comments.

Go with a pair of Rythmiks. You will get your 20Hz and it will be as tight and precise as many other more spendy choices as long as you spend the time to properly integrate them with you main speakers.

Greg

Well, I don't take your comments lightly at all. I checked out the Rythmic site and they are priced nicely, looks good, so I may just do that.

The integration part is what I was thinking about ... that maybe a dipole might work better in our room. Our last dipole sub did integrate well. Right now it's a modified IMF monitor sub in our room and it's good and well integrated, but could definitely be better and not quite enough low end.

But, I have no reason to think that a sealed wouldn't do just as well, if not better.

I saw this on their website. Maybe I'll get crazy and try a servo dipole sub with one for their custom servo boards.

Direct Servo can be used for any subwoofer, and is not limited to sealed and vented configurations. In addition to the standard sealed, vented and passive radiator configurations, Direct Servo can work with the following types of subwoofers:

Infinite baffle
Band pass
Isobaric
Open baffle
Horn loaded
Transmission line

If you wish to use any of these alternatives, contact us regarding the purchase of a custom designed Direct Servo board.


If it doesn't sound good could go sealed, if they'd be willing to fix the servo board again.

[gbegland]

Yeah, I totaly agree. Though this person was also professional in audio ... can't even remember who or where I read the comments.



Well, I don't take your comments lightly at all. I checked out the Rythmic site and they are priced nicely, looks good, so I may just do that.

The integration part is what I was thinking about ... that maybe a dipole might work better in our room. Our last dipole sub did integrate well. Right now it's a modified IMF monitor sub in our room and it's good and well integrated, but could definitely be better and not quite enough low end.

But, I have no reason to think that a sealed wouldn't do just as well, if not better.

I saw this on their website. Maybe I'll get crazy and try a servo dipole sub with one for their custom servo boards.

Direct Servo can be used for any subwoofer, and is not limited to sealed and vented configurations. In addition to the standard sealed, vented and passive radiator configurations, Direct Servo can work with the following types of subwoofers:

Infinite baffle
Band pass
Isobaric
Open baffle
Horn loaded
Transmission line

If you wish to use any of these alternatives, contact us regarding the purchase of a custom designed Direct Servo board.


If it doesn't sound good could go sealed, if they'd be willing to fix the servo board again.

Danny at GR Research has a partnership with Brian of Rythmik and he offers open baffle specific servo drivers to go with the Rythmik amps. I heard his speakers with dual 12" per side and I must say that the bass was outstanding. This was a potential choice for me originally after hearing them, but I changed my mind later on. It was some of the best bass at RMAF 2009.
Still doesn't have that tactile feel on the lowest notes like a speaker in a box though. I would try to ask Brain about using the Rythmik drivers OB before deciding to go with them.

Greg

[gbegland]

All that's left now is attaching the support leg and drilling all of the driver screw holes. Well, that and several weeks of testing and listening and adjusting, but I'd say I already had them 80% of the way there from the prototype baffles.

Greg

[AJINFLA]

Very nice.

Going to InfoComm this weekend?

cheers,

AJ

[gbegland]

Very nice.

Going to InfoComm this weekend?

cheers,

AJ

I don't have any training classes this weekend, but I do have some during next week, so I'll be at the convention center for those.

Greg