Kleos - Dipole Line Array

[Johnloudb]

Okay, I got parts ordered. I was looking for parts for the notch filter needed for the RD50. I cannot believe the prices on some caps! You can spend $3000 plus just on four 10uF film caps. Solen 10uF teflon film and foil are $716 each, and naturally I bought those because I think it's important to have a quality cap in the all important 5KHz region. :T

If you believe me, you also believe in The Great Pumpkin, and Santa Claus.

Here are the binding posts I'll be using. They are Vampire and I bought them some time ago. Will mount them just as soon as my other parts arrive so I can mount the filter at the same time.

[Hank]

Well, it's obvious that the Jon influence has descended upon you. Now we have another who will spend more on crossover components than on drivers. I have to know: WHERE did you get those Solen discount prices?? I want to place an order - are operators standing by? :rofl:
BTW, I'm experimenting with mesquite bean juice as the ultimate dielectric. If it pans out, my old family farm will be a money-printing enterprise. I just need a name for my new line of caps...

[PMazz]

BTW, I'm experimenting with mesquite bean juice as the ultimate dielectric.

What happened to Yak foreskin??? You were pretty impressed with it years ago.

[Johnloudb]

Well, it's obvious that the Jon influence has descended upon you. Now we have another who will spend more on crossover components than on drivers. I have to know: WHERE did you get those Solen discount prices?? I want to place an order - are operators standing by? :rofl:

Hank, what does the Great Pumpkin look like? I bought the Solen 600v metalized poly caps for $6 or $7 each, at www.partsconnexion.com.

Edit: Oh dear. I guess the 10uf teflon and foil sold out! Sorry, Hank.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_solen_teflon_fep.html

BTW, I'm experimenting with mesquite bean juice as the ultimate dielectric. If it pans out, my old family farm will be a money-printing enterprise. I just need a name for my new line of caps...

Sounds like a winner Hank! :T How about Juicy Caps?

[Hank]

What happened to Yak foreskin??? You were pretty impressed with it years ago.

Pete, that's my idea for a new film. Construction will be: Foreskin of the Tibetan Yak/Mesquite bean juice coating/foil. Production will be limited because of Yak supply, so they'll have to sell for 3 figures per(but that won't deter Jon).
John: I'll consider your name suggestion, but I'm leaning toward Foreskin and Foil in Mesquite Oil. Catchy, eh?
Oh, I may actually SEE the Great Pumpkin tonight at my local saloon as I toast your line array project with my favorite tequila! :boozer:

[JonMarsh]

Pete, that's my idea for a new film. Construction will be: Foreskin of the Tibetan Yak/Mesquite bean juice coating/foil. Production will be limited because of Yak supply, so they'll have to sell for 3 figures per(but that won't deter Jon).
John: I'll consider your name suggestion, but I'm leaning toward Foreskin and Foil in Mesquite Oil. Catchy, eh?
Oh, I may actually SEE the Great Pumpkin tonight at my local saloon as I toast your line array project with my favorite tequila! :boozer:

Now that's the right way to spend this evening!

Hank, please note, JUST for the record, I've never purchased a cap that cost $2K, and I HAVE purchased a driver that cost that much. So let's make a deal, I'll feature my 3M tekk Protection headsets more prominently in future build pics on my current project, and you can cut back on the scurrilous allegations regarding the vast sums of money I spend on crossover components (just because they're true doesn't mean they aren't scurrilous!) :W

[Hank]

Scurrilous - I love that word! But, okay, you've got a deal. I think I hear the faraway sound of a cordless screwdriver again...

[Johnloudb]

I got some binding posts on one speaker. It was very frustrating for a bit till I figured out how to get the short post mounted on the thick baffle. Finally, used a 3/4" flat boring drill bit from behind the hole to thin the wood and use a 12mm socket to tighten the nut. Got some wire soldered to the posts too. Still waiting on more crossover parts from PE and PC so I can get the notch filter built and mounted.

[sfdoddsy]

Now that's the right way to spend this evening!

Hank, please note, JUST for the record, I've never purchased a cap that cost $2K, and I HAVE purchased a driver that cost that much. So let's make a deal, I'll feature my 3M tekk Protection headsets more prominently in future build pics on my current project, and you can cut back on the scurrilous allegations regarding the vast sums of money I spend on crossover components (just because they're true doesn't mean they aren't scurrilous!) :W

Don't get me started on value and brand-envy. I just bought another pair of Seas Milleniums for rear tweeters even though:

a) I'm not fully convinced about the benefits of rear tweeters.

b) I'm dubious about audible superiority over the TDFC I use now in the role I'm not fully convinced by

c) I'm seriously considering SLs new LX521

d) I'm semi-seriously considering something ribbony.

A copper faceplate apparently goes a long way.

[JonMarsh]

Don't get me started on value and brand-envy. I just bought another pair of Seas Milleniums for rear tweeters even though:


A copper faceplate apparently goes a long way.

Boy, ain't that the truth? I've still got a pair of Millenium Excels I haven't ever found a home for, though I've tested them in some different configurations, including waveguides...

It's about what "feels right" and gives you a comfort factor as well as pride of ownership.

I've been going down a similar path with regards to the internal cabling on my current project, and have pretty much decided on Kimber 12TC and 8TC (bought in bulk from Parts Connexion, in Canada). The wire will cost more than the entire BOM for the M8's built in 2005. ops:

Hopefully no one will read this post, and this admission will get buried in the digital archives of HT Guide... :B

[JonMarsh]

I got some binding posts on one speaker. It was very frustrating for a bit till I figured out how to get the short post mounted on the thick baffle. Finally, used a 3/4" flat boring drill bit from behind the hole to thin the wood and use a 12mm socket to tighten the nut. Got some wire soldered to the posts too. Still waiting on more crossover parts from PE and PC so I can get the notch filter built and mounted.

Forstner bits will work well for that, too; that's what I may need to resort to for my current build with the main binding posts I want to use.

[Johnloudb]

I got my notch filters put together.



And mounted ... isn't that precious?!!! I used 3M brand double sided tape below the board and two screws.



And here are the holes I put in the base near the drivers to let wire through. I used black plastic shoulder washers to groom the hole. Isn't that just darling?!!!

:blonde: :boobies:

[Hank]

:^x I like this boy! You're gaining momentum, John!

[JonMarsh]

He's certainly going to beat me on this one! :B

yes, John, that detail work is going well! Grommets and all! It's old school, and I like it! :T

[Johnloudb]

[QUOTE=JonMarsh]

He's certainly going to beat me on this one! :B

I wouldn't count on it! Though, I've just about got the other speaker caught up, and installed the crossover and binding posts today. I always wanted to be old school ... yay!!!

Yep, gaining some momentum, Hank. :T

[Johnloudb]

Okay, apparently their are almost no input/output dock connectors for the iPhone. I find that amazing. There is one for $170.00 but I not even sure it will work with the iphone 4S which I have. I need the connector to work with Faberacoustical IOScope, before I buy the software. They should really consider selling their own if they want to sell their software. Their just don't seem to be any good options out there. So, I may build my own.

I'm starting my investigation here:

http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ipod_pinout.shtml

That link was posted in faberacousical's forum. Any helpful links/info would be appreciated. How stinking hard can it be to build a stupid I/O dock?

[Johnloudb]

This could work nice if to connect to the iPhone, once taken apart at the female end.

http://www.amazon.com/Ziotek-ZT1311555-HC1-2-Feet-Extender/dp/B004PBBSWO/ref=pd_sim_MI_5

[Johnloudb]

Okay, I just ordered this cable that will output audio from my iphones dock connector. With my mic attached to my iphone headphone out, I can take frequency response measurements, but not impedance. But that is fine for an active crossover, since impedance won't affect the frequency response of the loudspeaker.

[Johnloudb]

Hank, have you heard the cordless drill lately? :W

Pain In The Ass!!!! Installing this RD50 with all it's rivets and weird shapes .... PITA!

Just had to vent a bit. You all can tell how much I love speaker building huh?

Okay, this looks messy but hey no ones sees it with the driver installed.



The results.



Got my measurement software and hardware setup on my iphone and works good. I tested it on our current speakers.

[JonMarsh]

RD50's, oh boy oh boy!

I've got a set languishing in storage for quite a few years, and some Fountek tweeters to go with them! Sounds like a retirement project, to me. Will be curious to see how yours goes, which will happen a LOT sooner!

Where are you planning to cross to the mid woofers?

[Johnloudb]

Where are you planning to cross to the mid woofers?

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/296-616.pdf

Well, just from looking at the Usher's Data on their woofer. I think 500Hz would be a good place to cross. If my woofers measure similarly, I'll use a shelving filter to knock down the 800Hz-3kHz rise. I'm planning on a 4th order crossover.

I remember you and Thomas saying that 600Hz is the best place to cross the RD50. Is that right? So, I may do that if it works well for the woofer too.

Well, I hope to see what you come up with for your RD50/Fountek speaker. Do you have a set date for retirement?

[JonMarsh]

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/296-616.pdf



I remember you and Thomas saying that 600Hz is the best place to cross the RD50. Is that right? So, I may do that if it works well for the woofer too.

Well, I hope to see what you come up with for your RD50/Fountek speaker. Do you have a set date for retirement?

Yes, that's our recommendation.

No, no date in mind for retirement- I've been recommended for a promotion by US management that requires approval by upper management in HQ, so there's a lot left to do at work. The earliest I suppose I could retire would be about 10 months from now, but that's not remotely going to happen!

Who knows, maybe I'll get to it sooner! i just expect that it's the kind of project I'll want to have plenty of time to labor over the details, and it's hard to find that much time while working, especially with other projects (both audio and non-audio) that could or need to be going on.

So for now, I enjoy your build vicariously! :B

[Hank]

Vicariously here too. I could retire next February, but am still having fun with the projector biz and solid state lighting being developed by my other client biz unit. Also, I would NOT enjoy the 50% drop in income. Property taxes in Austin are skyrocketing, since everyone in the country is moving here. And the Formula One race last weekend brought in a HUGE number of super wealthy visitors - I think many of them were so impressed that they'll want to buy or build a 2nd (or 3rd) home here. I need to find the gate and lock it. Hey, I think our friend Jon is enjoying his work too much to retire.
Back on track: John, you're doing great and those baffles look beautimous!

[Hank]

John, I just ordered the Parts Express measurement system for future use. If you'd like to borrow it, let me know. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...ped-2012-11-19

[Johnloudb]

Thanks Hank!!! Very nice of you offer ... really nice measurement setup there!!! I do have a Dayton mic and some measurement software (ARTA) on my computer but I don't have a laptop, and I don't want to drag my computer into the listening room.

I'm having some problems with getting this iPhone measurement software to do what I want it to. Waiting on a response to my request for help. But, won't be long I'm sure, maybe after Thanksgiving. The iPhone mic I'm using seems very flat out to 10kHz though, when tested against my Radioshack SPL meter.

The RD50 looks pretty flat from 400Hz out to 10kHz, and the response drops off quite a bit after that.

Soooo ... you getting ready for YOUR planer dipole project?

[Hank]

Dunno - I'm actually looking at the used market for planars - ESL's or Maggies and want to take on the challenge of integrating a dynamic woofer (I would use a servo unit), which I understand was only done well by only one or two ESL brands. PM me your address if you want to borrow the system - I won't really need it until next year.

[JonMarsh]

Where's the pictures with RD50's mounted? We want to see the RD50's! :B

[Saurav]

ESL's or Maggies and want to take on the challenge of integrating a dynamic woofer

That was my plan when I bought the MMGs. But they sound surprisingly good by themselves once I got a sub dialed in, and a 6 month old baby has a way of sucking up unexpected amounts of time. I've parted out my previous speaker, but I held on to the AE OB12 drivers just in case I get the itch to get back to this project.

I still think MMGs with dipole 12" woofers would make a damn nice pair of speakers. Someone should try it

[Johnloudb]

Where's the pictures with RD50's mounted? We want to see the RD50's! :B

Did you miss this pict I posted this above? The RD50's are hidden by the grill cloth.



I'll take a picture of the other RD50 without grill cloth before mounting it. I know, we need more driver porn around here. :T

[JonMarsh]

I thought that was the tweeter array on the right. You're hiding the RD50's with a grille cloth!?! That's like putting a sack over the head of a pretty woman! :W

[Johnloudb]

That's like putting a sack over the head of a pretty woman! :W

Well, if that's all she's wearing ... :T You see, I can get away with a comment like that without getting my rear chewed off, cause there are NO women speaker builders!!!

Also, I was concerned with dust getting in there. I don't know if that's a big concern? But, it makes me feel better.

[JonMarsh]

Well, if that's all she's wearing ... :T You see, I can get away with a comment like that without getting my rear chewed off, cause there are NO women speaker builders!!!

Also, I was concerned with dust getting in there. I don't know if that's a big concern? But, it makes me feel better.

Well, they're YOUR speakers, so your call! :W I've never seen any issues with dust in exposed RD's, having known of at least one set in that mode for ten years... But where I live, that could be a problem...

[Johnloudb]

Okay, I need to build a microphone adapter to help me calibrate my software. So, waiting on a part from amazon.

I put the woofers in, and took some pictures and will post them shortly. I've to wire them up too. Going wire two woofers for each series connection, then wire those three series connected woofer in parallel.

[Johnloudb]

Here's some picts:

[JonMarsh]

Looking nice, John, but about that slot in the middle? Slot loaded port in a dipole?

[Johnloudb]

Jon, that was your idea!!! :W To keep the "woofers from pushing on the mids" or something to that effect. Don't make me go searching through Chucks thread to find your post. Doing this also enables dipole cancellation on both sides of the mid and woofers, as someone posted in this thread a while back.

The tweeters will be added to the outside of the RD50, also with some space between the tweeters and the mid. I can only afford 6 tweeters, which will be crossed over passively. But, trying this as a two way for now.

In any case the RD50 measured pretty flat, and I'll post some measurements as soon as I get my iphone software calibrated.

[Johnloudb]

I measured the woofers and the response is pretty smooth and I didn't get that large 4kHz peak which was nice. I did this just using my iphone to sweep a single tone and measure with an old Radioshack SPL meter. It did have a big drop off at 500 Hz ... baffle step I guess. So, something to take care of in the crossover.

Will post some frequency sweeps when I get that setup.

[Saurav]

No offense, but given the time/money/effort/love you've clearly poured into this project, I think you owe it to yourself to buy a proper measurement setup and teach yourself how to use it. You can buy a reasonably well calibrated mic, a USB soundcard, and a mic stand for < $200. All the software you need to get started is free, at least on Windows.

[PMazz]

This was my 2M on axis measurement of my RD50/Dayton line array. The peak is closer to 5.7 kHz (blue trace). The green trace is with a passive notch filter. I recently switched to a miniDSP instead of my old Marchand xover. I have other measurements but they're on another system. Disregard anything below ~1 kHz as my woofer line is crossed at 650 Hz.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, that was your idea!!! :W To keep the "woofers from pushing on the mids" or something to that effect. Don't make me go searching through Chucks thread to find your post. Doing this also enables dipole cancellation on both sides of the mid and woofers, as someone posted in this thread a while back.

The tweeters will be added to the outside of the RD50, also with some space between the tweeters and the mid. I can only afford 6 tweeters, which will be crossed over passively. But, trying this as a two way for now.

In any case the RD50 measured pretty flat, and I'll post some measurements as soon as I get my iphone software calibrated.

I was just seeing if I'd get a rise from you! Guess I did! :W

I was actually talking to my GF last night about resurrecting one of my old line array concepts as a corner loaded mains for her HT- something to do with MY RD50's. and of course, it solves issues like BSC by bypassing them completely, as well as how to do placement for boundary loading optimization and at what frequency.

Now I just have to figure out what mid woofer! The triangular cross section enclosures should be a breeze after my latest...

[Johnloudb]

I was just seeing if I'd get a rise from you!

Okay, I'm glad you remember Jon! Though given how long I've been working at this who could blame you for forgetting. I'm happy with all the design choices I've made so far, and I hope that doesn't change after listening impressions. That sounds like a very nice project for your RD50s. :T

Hi Saurav,

Thanks for the info! But I'm committed to my iPhone which is very capable and very portable. I have a nice little mic (Edutige EIM-001) and the Faberacoustical software does more than I need it to, and it's easy to use and pretty intuitive. I just have to get it calibrated right, before I post any graphs. Still waiting on a microphone cable to arrive so I can build a little adapter to help me calibrate the software.

This was my 2M on axis measurement of my RD50/Dayton line array. The peak is closer to 5.7 kHz (blue trace). The green trace is with a passive notch filter.

Thanks for posting that. Yeah, I measured about the same at I think 5.5kHz on my RD50 without the filter. I haven't measured with the filter hooked up yet. The peak I was referring to was that of the Usher woofer at 4kHz on their data sheet. I didn't notice much of a peak if any at 4kHz ... a good thing!

John

[Saurav]

Thanks for the info! But I'm committed to my iPhone which is very capable and very portable.

I'm not questioning the capabilities of the iPhone. iPhone vs. Mac vs. PC doesn't matter at all, that's just software for looking at and processing results. What you need is a measurement system you can trust. If you have a decent mic with a reasonably flat response and a way to calibrate it, then you should be good to go. Otherwise, it's impossible to know if the FR you're seeing (and designing a crossover for) is because of non-linearities in your driver, or in your microphone.

The RS SPL meter, for instance, is pretty non-linear. So if you design a crossover that measures flat with the RS SPL meter, you real response is going to be very un-flat.

[Johnloudb]

The older RadioShack SPL meter I have is pretty flat and much better than the new digital one. I also have a thumbtacks iPhone mic which was tested by Faberacoustical and has a very flat response. I have a Dayton mic too, so I could even buy a mic amp to work with my iPhone.

The software does impulse response, impedance, and frequency response, FFT, group delay and more.

Anyway, we'll see how it all goes. Go iPhone! :B

[Saurav]

I have the old analog RS SPL meter too, and I wouldn't use it for speaker measurements And your phone has a more powerful CPU than my 10 year old laptop :lol: If you have a known good mic, then you should be good to go. Congratulations on this project, it's looking fantastic!

[JonMarsh]

The software does impulse response, impedance, and frequency response, FFT, group delay and more.

Anyway, we'll see how it all goes. Go iPhone! :B

A man after my own heart!

But some day you'll have to try Fuzzmeasure on the Mac, too!