Kleos - Dipole Line Array

[Hank]

Actually, it was no fun - back-to-back meetings - almost no time to see the show. Very frustrating. Happy to be back home. Have you slapped all the drivers in yet?

[Johnloudb]

That is a bummer Hank, too bad. But, on the positive note you do have a job.

No, I haven't slapped in the drivers! Will never be "slapping" in the drivers.

Making progress on the house cleaning. My cousin has to help with some of it and he may be coming over next Saturday. This all could take some time.

I'm also starting work on a new Subwoofer build ... something to keep up with the dipoles.

I've got two sub boxes that will make a nice home for 4 of these:
TC Sounds Epic 12

[Hank]

Yeah, when I feel overloaded since "they" gave me another business unit (Architectural Markets) to take care of, I remind myself that it's a good job and has been for almost 33 years here.

Nice subwoofer plan. I've never been a fan of aluminum wire, but can't argue with the reputation of those TC drivers.

[Johnloudb]

Okay, for anyone still interested Hank (?) this speaker project is back on track. I decided to wait for warmer weather to finished the cabinet before putting in the drivers.

I attached the back base board, had to route out some areas so it would fit.



Veneer.






Got to attach one more piece of veneer on the back, then just have to put on linseed oil and poly to finish the speaker.

[Ezcl]

Alright! Good to see you're back at it, looks like it's coming along nicely too!

Open backed designs have always intrigued and confused me... Speakers are supposed to be boxes, not boards! :P

[Johnloudb]

Alright! Good to see you're back at it, looks like it's coming along nicely too!

Open backed designs have always intrigued and confused me... Speakers are supposed to be boxes, not boards! :P

Thanks Ezcl! Yes, dipoles are freaks, but they can be very good sounding freaks under the right conditions.

[wkhanna]

You go, John!

Gett'n those BadBoys done is like all our projects, one step at a time. :T

[Johnloudb]

Thanks Bill!

Yep, nearing the end. Whole lot of things seemed to get in way of finishing this, but that's life. Life gets in the way.

[Hank]

Well, well, look what the cat dragged in! I feel like this Spring/Summer will see the completion of this major project. Your listening notes and measurements will surely be of interest to lots of folks here. Go for it, John!

[Johnloudb]

Thanks Hank!

Yep, I hope to get done shortly. I plan on using my iPhone and some measurement apps like the Faber Acoustical's Signal Scope which I have. May need some more of their software too though. I've also got an iphone compatible external mic that is pretty decent, compared to the iphone mic.

Don't know how informative my measurements will be to others here, but it's possible I might turn up something interesting. Hope to get some input and advice from others too in regard to measurements.

[Johnloudb]

Just posting a small update, got the veneer finished on one speaker. Will do some more sanding on the base and then linseed oil and poly.

[Hank]

This long weekend sure would be a great time for someone who is building a large speaker project to make some progress...wouldn't it? :unsure:

[Johnloudb]

I've been making progress Hank! What!? ... you want updates and pictures? Getting greedy aren't we? HaHa ... Just kidding. I've been busy with email conversations with a friend and stuff. I have some pictures, and I'll post them soon.

[Johnloudb]

Here is what I've done to date with one speaker. Still have to catch up on the other one when I'm finished with this one. It has one coat of polyurethane, and I need to sand and put additional coats on. Anyone have any advice on a putting polyurethane finish on? It is a bit rough in places and the instructions say to use a 220 grit sandpaper to lightly sand and smooth out before putting additional coats on. So, that what I'm going to do, except I think I'll use a 320 grit cause the paper I use is pretty good a taking stuff off.

Front -

I was shooting into the light, so this picture didn't turn out too well, as it is too dark in front.



Back -

[dar47]

Those are looking great :T

Remember poly doesn't stick well on itself, it can delaminate if not sanded between coats. I like to get the first few coats on everywhere and sand lightly with a 400 grit wet sand between coats. After I have a buildup enough not to sand through I do each addition coat on the flat so I can flood thick. Ploy is not very self leveling so don't worry a bought the hills and valleys and dust till you get the thickness you want, you just want the sheen off. I then wet sand till flat and apply a thinned coat to leave no brush strokes. If you want a very flat surface you can then wet sand 400, 800, 1200, and rub it out with rubbing compound. After it fully cures you can then wax. I like the satin with this process because the waxed rubbed surface is flat to look at straight on and glossy when you look across the surface.

If your using the oil base you usually need more coats, I do 10 to get it flat. The last set of cabs I made I used water based sanding sealer and the water based Varathane Nano with the Aluminum oxide for floors. It was only 2 coats sealer and 5 Nano. The oil base has more depth to the appearance and because it is linseed oil based it adds an amber tint where as the water base can appear milky till fully cured.

Here is the Nano,

Image not available

[Johnloudb]

Thanks very much Dar!

After I have a buildup enough not to sand through I do each addition coat on the flat so I can flood thick.

I don't understand this, could you explain? "on the flat" and "flood thick" don't ring a bell.

How do you thin the polyurethane? Do you use paint thinner? I read you can use linseed oil to thin paint so it goes on smoother. I used linseed oil on the wood before using poly. I guess if poly already has some linseed oil in it adding some more for the final coat wouldn't hurt, to thin it?

John

[dar47]

Thanks very much Dar!



I don't understand this, could you explain? "on the flat" and "flood thick" don't ring a bell.

How do you thin the polyurethane? Do you use paint thinner? I read you can use linseed oil to thin paint so it goes on smoother. I used linseed oil on the wood before using poly. I guess if poly already has some linseed oil in it adding some more for the final coat wouldn't hurt, to thin it?

John

Lay the speaker horizontal with the baffles facing up, like painting a table top surface, you can put lots on with no runs. Takes more time because your doing 1 surface at a time but your getting more on with out runs and your filling the valleys in the surface to get level.

You can thin with paint thinner or Varsol (mineral spirits) if your using oil base. This is just done on the last coat if your not rubbing it out. The last coat I thin and do vertically and keep checking for runs. You will have little to no brush strokes with no dust on the surface after it drys. The thinning is to reduce brush strokes and dust pick up and your final coat will dry faster.

[dar47]

Sorry 1 more tip, I buy a good quality brushes and after cleaning them I keep them soaking in mineral spirits between coats. I have some brushes that are 10 years old that I pull out and pre-soak for a week before finishing. The older the brush the softer the tips and you will not have brush hairs coming out on your surface.

An old German painting shops teacher told us if you can't spray your finish make metal boxes and store your brushes in solvent and the fibers in the brush tips will get vary soft. With practice and old soft brushes you can match any sprayed finish it just takes more time.

[Johnloudb]

Thanks Dar! I appreciate the input, very helpful!

[Hank]

Atta boy, John - keep after it. dar47's advice is good for a poly finish. I forgot - have you built your crossovers yet?

[Johnloudb]

Hi Hank, nope not yet but I know what I'm going to do for the most part. A simple JFET crossover. I'm going to start out two on this and add tweeters later. Shouldn't take too long.

[Johnloudb]

Got a HVLP paint sprayer ordered so I can put on the polyurethane better. Should be here next week some time.

[wkhanna]

wooWhooo!
A new toy!

[Squidspeak]

Got a HVLP paint sprayer ordered so I can put on the polyurethane better. Should be here next week some time.

What unit did you order? I have a Fuji 4-stage and use it in my cabinet
shop, going 10yrs. strong now. Also use it once in awhile to spray a pair
of speakers.Believe they are made in Canada, go figure.

[Johnloudb]

Bill, Yep, looking forward to playing with my new toy! Just of question of whether to paint the kitchen or speaker first? Hmmm ...

Squidspeak,

I got a Wagner Control Spray Plus HVLP sprayer. Hank recommended it, and it fits my budget, and needs no extra compressor.

[Hank]

Ok John, get 'er done.

[Johnloudb]

I hear ya Hank! I've got the spray gun, and going to see if I can get something accomplished this weekend.

[Johnloudb]

I had a look at the spray gun and put the parts together. I hurt my back lifting a couple bags of bark bits in the car three days ago. It's feeling a lot better now but can't lift much. I may be up to some work on the speaker next weekend, but not sure.

[Hank]

C'mon, John, bark bits? Hank's universal cure will fix that back: tequila. Speakers are waiting for your build talent.

[Johnloudb]

Hank, the bits had been out in the rain and had soaked up the water. They were heavy and I am weak.

Paint sprayers take a lot of work to clean. Sounds like I have to take it all apart and clean everything according to the instructions after each coat.

I'll tell you right now I absolutely hate painting and I'm never, ever doing this again. After this I'm through with painting speakers!!!! :M

[Hank]

Just kidding, John. Hang in there. I feel the same way about wallpaper - did a 2' x 4' section of a wall years ago and THAT, my friend, will be the one and only time this boy will wallpaper.
BTW, real men don't paint speakers - they veneer them with exotic wood. :B :banana:

We want to see progress photos.

[Johnloudb]

Well, no photos tonight ... but did mask areas of the speaker to get ready for spraying the poly on.

[Johnloudb]

Hank, the sprayer worked great!!! I put on a thin coat last night and I almost didn't mind having to clean it after I was done. Thanks for the recommend!

[Hank]

Atta boy, John!

[Johnloudb]

To update here is a picture after two coats with the sprayer. I have since sanded it and am ready to put on a third coat. The sun shining toward me caused some glare in the photo.

[JonMarsh]

Purty, John! :T Glad to see someone making some progress this summer! I haven't been able to do squat on speakers since Xmas, and it's starting to REALLY bug me! (and that's the diplomatic version I might share with my boss- safety wired to the PO'd position is more how I'd describe it.)

I bet you're really anticipating getting this finished and put together in your room....

[Johnloudb]

Purty, John! :T Glad to see someone making some progress this summer! I haven't been able to do squat on speakers since Xmas, and it's starting to REALLY bug me! (and that's the diplomatic version I might share with my boss- safety wired to the PO'd position is more how I'd describe it.)

I bet you're really anticipating getting this finished and put together in your room....

Thanks Jon! Yes, I'm anxious to get these done and do some listening. If your boss has more free time than you put a little pressure on him. Like say to him, "Did you enjoy your weekend? Yeah, I remember those!"

Well hang in there. Hope your work situation improves. Like to see some of those great speaker designs you've stared get finished.

[Hank]

Jon is linked at the hip to his work. He complains, but deep down, I believe he is really commited and loves his work. More people should be so blessed, BUT he really needs to reclaim his weekends. :W

Gonnna get those last coats applied this weekend, John? BTW, do you have measurment mic and software?

[JonMarsh]

BUT he really needs to reclaim his weekends. :W

This is definitely the money quote, and I'm doing my best to get marketing management to own up to their poor planning and do something more realistic for the next phase of this project that I'm flying to Houston for on Sunday. The manager involved took my request to heart and tried to come up with an action plan based on our actual resources, and with only using 2 PCB spins (not realistic, but better than 1 spin) he acknowledges it should be at least 3 months, not the six weeks he was previously clamoring for. I suggested get used to that, but add another month and PCB spin, or take it to an out of house contractor with a lot more resources and experience in system hardware packaging.

That's progress of a sort, at least getting them to look at the problem more realistically.

The two software guys from Italy have been great, and though we've had a long busy week, we've got a working system to take to the customer, though it does look a bit like a kluge...

Maybe the weekend after next will be my own for a change...

[Johnloudb]

Gonnna get those last coats applied this weekend, John? BTW, do you have measurment mic and software?

It was threatening to rain last couple days, so I had to put my speaker under the porch for now. Just storm clouds so far though. It has three coats with the sprayer, and you know it's looking pretty nice! I've started work on the other speaker till the weather is more favorable to painting. Attached the back base board yesterday, will post picks soon. I'll be working on the second one to get it caught up to the other one.

I have some measurement software on my iPhone and a good mic for it. I'm going to be using that since I don't have a portable computer.

[Johnloudb]

Just to update. I have applied veneer to base of the second loudspeaker and just need to do some more sanding, put linseed oil on it, and then poly to get it caught up to the other one.

[Hank]

Alright John - progress!

[Johnloudb]

Yep, I'm working on it. Have had some others things to do, but got it sanded and put linseed oil on the base. Hope to get these finished soon. Will not be waiting till next spring again!

[wkhanna]

Looking good, John! :T

I remember my first foray using linseed oil.
I ended up having to re-sand the cabinets after I put about 5 coats on. :E

Oh well, live & learn. Experience is still the best teacher. :lol:

[Johnloudb]

I remember my first foray using linseed oil.
I ended up having to re-sand the cabinets after I put about 5 coats on.

Yeah, I can see how that could be a problem. Linseed is nice for bringing out the wood grain and colors though. I've certainly learned a whole lot from this "experience" in speaker building. Knew almost nothing about speaker building, wood working, or doing any kind of finish the right way. I have made mistakes but nothing devastating yet, AFAIK. Still have to see if these will sound good. Fortunately, the people here do know what they're doing and I'm very appreciative for everyone's advice and ideas!!! ;x(